Do you have any data on how much um different prints cost ? I mean can you get the entire thing printed with a design um ?

Um b b b da is  you mean on the plastic , or ?

Let's have a look. You now have as much information as I do.  Um.


Um b b b da is  you mean on the plastic , or ?

Let's have a look. You now have as much information as I do.  Um.

So as you can see here , for example , the battery really not very little choice in that one. We've gone for one of the cheaper options as well. Unfortunately we require the advanced chip if we're gonna do what we're needing to. I've said single curved. We really do need it to be that way for the ergonomics of it. Um plastic for some reason incurs no cost , which I've had to very much make advantage of , despite the fact that rubber's only got a value of two Euros per unit. Problem comes here as you can see in the interface. Um if I've read this thing correctly , then we can save point five of a Euro here in that it's not per push button. That might make sense , because then a numeric keypad would come in at um what , four point five Euros , which is an awful lot , so that could well be wrong. Even if we save point five there , it would just mean that we're most likely placing it in actually just gaining a colour for the unit , which has had to be put to one side. As you can see , the use of an L_C_ display um advanced chip and what would determine the scroll wheel here as well because it's an integrated scroll scroll wheel push button that wasn't quite what I think they had in mind with a joystick.


Let's have a look. You now have as much information as I do.  Um.

So as you can see here , for example , the battery really not very little choice in that one. We've gone for one of the cheaper options as well. Unfortunately we require the advanced chip if we're gonna do what we're needing to. I've said single curved. We really do need it to be that way for the ergonomics of it. Um plastic for some reason incurs no cost , which I've had to very much make advantage of , despite the fact that rubber's only got a value of two Euros per unit. Problem comes here as you can see in the interface. Um if I've read this thing correctly , then we can save point five of a Euro here in that it's not per push button. That might make sense , because then a numeric keypad would come in at um what , four point five Euros , which is an awful lot , so that could well be wrong. Even if we save point five there , it would just mean that we're most likely placing it in actually just gaining a colour for the unit , which has had to be put to one side. As you can see , the use of an L_C_ display um advanced chip and what would determine the scroll wheel here as well because it's an integrated scroll scroll wheel push button that wasn't quite what I think they had in mind with a joystick.

Why would why would that be more expensive than an individual push button and scroll wheel together ? That's quite significantly expensive.


So as you can see here , for example , the battery really not very little choice in that one. We've gone for one of the cheaper options as well. Unfortunately we require the advanced chip if we're gonna do what we're needing to. I've said single curved. We really do need it to be that way for the ergonomics of it. Um plastic for some reason incurs no cost , which I've had to very much make advantage of , despite the fact that rubber's only got a value of two Euros per unit. Problem comes here as you can see in the interface. Um if I've read this thing correctly , then we can save point five of a Euro here in that it's not per push button. That might make sense , because then a numeric keypad would come in at um what , four point five Euros , which is an awful lot , so that could well be wrong. Even if we save point five there , it would just mean that we're most likely placing it in actually just gaining a colour for the unit , which has had to be put to one side. As you can see , the use of an L_C_ display um advanced chip and what would determine the scroll wheel here as well because it's an integrated scroll scroll wheel push button that wasn't quite what I think they had in mind with a joystick.

Why would why would that be more expensive than an individual push button and scroll wheel together ? That's quite significantly expensive.

I  that's something you'll have to take up with the bean counters. Um


Why would why would that be more expensive than an individual push button and scroll wheel together ? That's quite significantly expensive.

I  that's something you'll have to take up with the bean counters. Um

as you can see I mean that's taken up well over half of the price.


I  that's something you'll have to take up with the bean counters. Um

as you can see I mean that's taken up well over half of the price.


as you can see I mean that's taken up well over half of the price.

So um I'm very much open to suggestions of where we go , but because we need to shed what was four Euros off of the um the price of for what we really desired , this one comes in under price as you can see , but this was the one that sacrificed the material for the case and for the actual case design.


as you can see I mean that's taken up well over half of the price.

So um I'm very much open to suggestions of where we go , but because we need to shed what was four Euros off of the um the price of for what we really desired , this one comes in under price as you can see , but this was the one that sacrificed the material for the case and for the actual case design.

We don't even have uh speakers here. The  like uh we uh  what about speakers and transmitters and stuff like that ? Have we factored that in ?


So um I'm very much open to suggestions of where we go , but because we need to shed what was four Euros off of the um the price of for what we really desired , this one comes in under price as you can see , but this was the one that sacrificed the material for the case and for the actual case design.

We don't even have uh speakers here. The  like uh we uh  what about speakers and transmitters and stuff like that ? Have we factored that in ?


We don't even have uh speakers here. The  like uh we uh  what about speakers and transmitters and stuff like that ? Have we factored that in ?

Transmitter , receiver , speakers. Plus the extra device itself that's gonna be on a T_V_.


Transmitter , receiver , speakers. Plus the extra device itself that's gonna be on a T_V_.


Transmitter , receiver , speakers. Plus the extra device itself that's gonna be on a T_V_.

That'll  it literally would just be a button.


That'll  it literally would just be a button.


It looks like almost nothing  Mm. Oh good call , I missed that.


It looks like almost nothing  Mm. Oh good call , I missed that.

Did they s do we have to use an advanced chip for the L_C_D_ ?


Did they s do we have to use an advanced chip for the L_C_D_ ?


Did they s do we have to use an advanced chip for the L_C_D_ ?

So if we're gonna go with the L_C_ display , then that's


So if we're gonna go with the L_C_ display , then that's

What's a hand dyna dynamo ? You have to wind it up ?


So if we're gonna go with the L_C_ display , then that's

What's a hand dyna dynamo ? You have to wind it up ?

That would probably not be in keeping with the um the fashion statement and such ,


What's a hand dyna dynamo ? You have to wind it up ?

That would probably not be in keeping with the um the fashion statement and such ,


That would probably not be in keeping with the um the fashion statement and such ,


So basically the only new thing is the L_C_D_ on the remote now.


So basically the only new thing is the L_C_D_ on the remote now.

Being manipulated by the joystick , yeah.


Being manipulated by the joystick , yeah.

And we couldn't replace the joystick , right ? Because we would need four extra buttons to replace it , up down left and right , and that would be more expensive than a  but is a scroll wheel not just back and forward ?


And we couldn't replace the joystick , right ? Because we would need four extra buttons to replace it , up down left and right , and that would be more expensive than a  but is a scroll wheel not just back and forward ?


And we couldn't replace the joystick , right ? Because we would need four extra buttons to replace it , up down left and right , and that would be more expensive than a  but is a scroll wheel not just back and forward ?

Yeah it's just because there was no actual definition for what a joystick might be , that that's what I've labelled it for the purposes of this evaluation.


And we couldn't replace the joystick , right ? Because we would need four extra buttons to replace it , up down left and right , and that would be more expensive than a  but is a scroll wheel not just back and forward ?

Yeah it's just because there was no actual definition for what a joystick might be , that that's what I've labelled it for the purposes of this evaluation.

So  The L_C_D_ basically is the big selling point of


Yeah it's just because there was no actual definition for what a joystick might be , that that's what I've labelled it for the purposes of this evaluation.

So  The L_C_D_ basically is the big selling point of

If we remove the L_C_ display , we could save ourselves


So  The L_C_D_ basically is the big selling point of

If we remove the L_C_ display , we could save ourselves


If we remove the L_C_ display , we could save ourselves

But that's what makes it uh original though ,


But that's what makes it uh original though ,

Mm. I think  if we remove the the L_C_ display then there was absolutely no point to any of these meetings


Mm. I think  if we remove the the L_C_ display then there was absolutely no point to any of these meetings

and we just  we could just put our branding on any other remote control.


and we just  we could just put our branding on any other remote control.


and we just  we could just put our branding on any other remote control.

It's a shame. We should possibly have  If we could've increased the price we could've manufactured that and we could've got something far closer to what we were hoping to.


and we just  we could just put our branding on any other remote control.

It's a shame. We should possibly have  If we could've increased the price we could've manufactured that and we could've got something far closer to what we were hoping to.

Does this does this bear in mind that  I mean it's a bit ridiculous that they're gonna charge us what is it , like this much money for three million if we're gonna buy three million components ,


It's a shame. We should possibly have  If we could've increased the price we could've manufactured that and we could've got something far closer to what we were hoping to.

Does this does this bear in mind that  I mean it's a bit ridiculous that they're gonna charge us what is it , like this much money for three million if we're gonna buy three million components ,

Again , you'll have to argue with the accountants on that one.


Does this does this bear in mind that  I mean it's a bit ridiculous that they're gonna charge us what is it , like this much money for three million if we're gonna buy three million components ,

Again , you'll have to argue with the accountants on that one.

Um but for the purposes of this meeting , I'm  we're gonna have to stick with these figures.


Again , you'll have to argue with the accountants on that one.

Um but for the purposes of this meeting , I'm  we're gonna have to stick with these figures.


Um but for the purposes of this meeting , I'm  we're gonna have to stick with these figures.

So , I would say that it would seem like the general opinion is we're gonna keep the L_C_ display 'cause it's about what really separates us ,  despite the cost it's gonna incur. Um


So , I would say that it would seem like the general opinion is we're gonna keep the L_C_ display 'cause it's about what really separates us ,  despite the cost it's gonna incur. Um

are people maybe not happy with , but are willing to go ahead with this in going for a plastic solid case , to keep the L_C_D_ ?


So , I would say that it would seem like the general opinion is we're gonna keep the L_C_ display 'cause it's about what really separates us ,  despite the cost it's gonna incur. Um

are people maybe not happy with , but are willing to go ahead with this in going for a plastic solid case , to keep the L_C_D_ ?

Mm-hmm. Um yeah  I mean one thing , I mean ho uh how much extra would it be to to keep I mean  keep the um the articulation ?


are people maybe not happy with , but are willing to go ahead with this in going for a plastic solid case , to keep the L_C_D_ ?

Mm-hmm. Um yeah  I mean one thing , I mean ho uh how much extra would it be to to keep I mean  keep the um the articulation ?

It's hard to tell. Um I would say that you're at least gonna take double curved ,


Mm-hmm. Um yeah  I mean one thing , I mean ho uh how much extra would it be to to keep I mean  keep the um the articulation ?

It's hard to tell. Um I would say that you're at least gonna take double curved ,

and even then I'm not quite sure if that's incorporating the idea of articulation.


It's hard to tell. Um I would say that you're at least gonna take double curved ,

and even then I'm not quite sure if that's incorporating the idea of articulation.


and even then I'm not quite sure if that's incorporating the idea of articulation.


and even then I'm not quite sure if that's incorporating the idea of articulation.

no , I think I I it d that it needn't require it to be double curved.


no , I think I I it d that it needn't require it to be double curved.

It can be s yeah , it can still be single curved ,


no , I think I I it d that it needn't require it to be double curved.

It can be s yeah , it can still be single curved ,

It's uh it's just  it's just  it's just that the case would come in t  would be made in two parts and then joined together with an articulation.


It can be s yeah , it can still be single curved ,

It's uh it's just  it's just  it's just that the case would come in t  would be made in two parts and then joined together with an articulation.


It's uh it's just  it's just  it's just that the case would come in t  would be made in two parts and then joined together with an articulation.


Could we could we not get rid of the curvy the curvous the curvaceousness and focus on the menu being the best interface ? 'Cause like we  do we have re restrictions on software ?


Could we could we not get rid of the curvy the curvous the curvaceousness and focus on the menu being the best interface ? 'Cause like we  do we have re restrictions on software ?

That's what we need for the joystick I think though.


That's what we need for the joystick I think though.

and  I mean the uh I mean if you look uh if you look closer at the uh at the prototype here , the lines here along the grip are actually quite straight. Um I mean  yeah ,


and  I mean the uh I mean if you look uh if you look closer at the uh at the prototype here , the lines here along the grip are actually quite straight. Um I mean  yeah ,


and  I mean the uh I mean if you look uh if you look closer at the uh at the prototype here , the lines here along the grip are actually quite straight. Um I mean  yeah ,

on the  on the L_C_D_ I mean although we've done it with a curve it


on the  on the L_C_D_ I mean although we've done it with a curve it

could just as easily be done um without curves. The curve that's really needed is up here ,


could just as easily be done um without curves. The curve that's really needed is up here ,

to put uh to keep the joystick in a good ergonomic position for it to have it rest on the top of the hand.


to put uh to keep the joystick in a good ergonomic position for it to have it rest on the top of the hand.

We wouldn't actually save a lot by reducing it anyway , so I mean for the purposes of this meeting maybe we can state that single curve still allows articulation.


We wouldn't actually save a lot by reducing it anyway , so I mean for the purposes of this meeting maybe we can state that single curve still allows articulation.

Um unless we hear otherwise we could go ahead with that proposal.


We wouldn't actually save a lot by reducing it anyway , so I mean for the purposes of this meeting maybe we can state that single curve still allows articulation.

Um unless we hear otherwise we could go ahead with that proposal.

So I think the product is not gonna perform so well for my criteria.


Um unless we hear otherwise we could go ahead with that proposal.

So I think the product is not gonna perform so well for my criteria.

Which is what we can get onto now. As long as  so are we gonna say   w we have to keep an eye on the time as well , but we're gonna say um single curved design


Um unless we hear otherwise we could go ahead with that proposal.

So I think the product is not gonna perform so well for my criteria.

Which is what we can get onto now. As long as  so are we gonna say   w we have to keep an eye on the time as well , but we're gonna say um single curved design

Oh , wait a minute. Sample speaker ? What is a sample speaker ? Is that somewhat similar to what we want ?


So I think the product is not gonna perform so well for my criteria.

Which is what we can get onto now. As long as  so are we gonna say   w we have to keep an eye on the time as well , but we're gonna say um single curved design

Oh , wait a minute. Sample speaker ? What is a sample speaker ? Is that somewhat similar to what we want ?


Which is what we can get onto now. As long as  so are we gonna say   w we have to keep an eye on the time as well , but we're gonna say um single curved design

Oh , wait a minute. Sample speaker ? What is a sample speaker ? Is that somewhat similar to what we want ?


Oh , wait a minute. Sample speaker ? What is a sample speaker ? Is that somewhat similar to what we want ?


that's that voice response thing that we got the email about.


that's that voice response thing that we got the email about.

But I thought it was just completely pointless.


But I thought it was just completely pointless.


B i basically it was  saying that our labs had come up with a chip that you could , you know , say hello to , and it would say hello back in a friendly female voice .


B i basically it was  saying that our labs had come up with a chip that you could , you know , say hello to , and it would say hello back in a friendly female voice .

Okay , yeah we'll definitely won't go with that one.


B i basically it was  saying that our labs had come up with a chip that you could , you know , say hello to , and it would say hello back in a friendly female voice .

Okay , yeah we'll definitely won't go with that one.

We won't go with that one , did you say ?


Okay , yeah we'll definitely won't go with that one.

We won't go with that one , did you say ?


We won't go with that one , did you say ?

Um. So , okay yeah , battery definitely ,


Um. So , okay yeah , battery definitely ,

So it looks like we're gonna get rid of the whole loca  locator thing.


Um. So , okay yeah , battery definitely ,

So it looks like we're gonna get rid of the whole loca  locator thing.

It looks like it unless we can manage to put it in under point two Euros , um.


So it looks like we're gonna get rid of the whole loca  locator thing.

It looks like it unless we can manage to put it in under point two Euros , um.


It looks like it unless we can manage to put it in under point two Euros , um.


Maybe even slight well oh yeah , pretty much point two Euros , I'd say. So we'll leave that one for now.  we'll just have


Maybe even slight well oh yeah , pretty much point two Euros , I'd say. So we'll leave that one for now.  we'll just have

Are we going for a special colour at all ?


Maybe even slight well oh yeah , pretty much point two Euros , I'd say. So we'll leave that one for now.  we'll just have

Are we going for a special colour at all ?

It's uh a case of um I'm uh slightly unsure. One  point five of a Euro for one push button doesn't sound quite right. So maybe it's a case of a push button is maybe one or more. Um.


Are we going for a special colour at all ?

It's uh a case of um I'm uh slightly unsure. One  point five of a Euro for one push button doesn't sound quite right. So maybe it's a case of a push button is maybe one or more. Um.


It's uh a case of um I'm uh slightly unsure. One  point five of a Euro for one push button doesn't sound quite right. So maybe it's a case of a push button is maybe one or more. Um.


I was  for a case. Or had you already incorporated that ?


I was  for a case. Or had you already incorporated that ?

Well you got point five there. It's literally a case of whether or not this is correct. I'm not quite sure if they're  I don't think they mean point five Euros per button.


Well you got point five there. It's literally a case of whether or not this is correct. I'm not quite sure if they're  I don't think they mean point five Euros per button.


Well you got point five there. It's literally a case of whether or not this is correct. I'm not quite sure if they're  I don't think they mean point five Euros per button.

l let's say that and then we can have our special coloured case


l let's say that and then we can have our special coloured case


l let's say that and then we can have our special coloured case

and then we at least have  make it a little harder to lose.


and then we at least have  make it a little harder to lose.

Because most m most remotes are a fairly dingy colour that gets camouflaged under any pile of crap in a living room.


and then we at least have  make it a little harder to lose.

Because most m most remotes are a fairly dingy colour that gets camouflaged under any pile of crap in a living room.

W what's the default colour ? White or black ?


Because most m most remotes are a fairly dingy colour that gets camouflaged under any pile of crap in a living room.

W what's the default colour ? White or black ?

Black's probably the normal colour you'd say ,


W what's the default colour ? White or black ?

Black's probably the normal colour you'd say ,


Black's probably the normal colour you'd say ,


I quite like that colour that you're fetching there ,


I quite like that colour that you're fetching there ,

it's uh definitely for make it glow in the dark even better.


it's uh definitely for make it glow in the dark even better.


which you're probably now going to pan us but there we go.


which you're probably now going to pan us but there we go.

Just to give you an idea , um you want to go maybe a bit quickly as well , I'm not sure how much time. We've not hit the five minute mark warning yet ,


Just to give you an idea , um you want to go maybe a bit quickly as well , I'm not sure how much time. We've not hit the five minute mark warning yet ,


'Kay. Ability to stop remotes from being lost or to find them once they are lost. Um. Okay.


Th the special colour doesn't  would I think make a difference.


Th the special colour doesn't  would I think make a difference.

Think we're being generous here with three.


Th the special colour doesn't  would I think make a difference.

Think we're being generous here with three.

It makes it stand out from  you know it's lost in a big pile of crap , it stands out from the rest of the crap.


Think we're being generous here with three.

It makes it stand out from  you know it's lost in a big pile of crap , it stands out from the rest of the crap.


It makes it stand out from  you know it's lost in a big pile of crap , it stands out from the rest of the crap.


It makes it stand out from  you know it's lost in a big pile of crap , it stands out from the rest of the crap.

Reduce the number of unused buttons. We're down to t two buttons , is it ?


Reduce the number of unused buttons. We're down to t two buttons , is it ?


Okay , that was good. Easy to use interface , buttons menu , menus


Okay , that was good. Easy to use interface , buttons menu , menus

that's yeah that's good.  'Kay that's  we're not doing so badly. Um  easy to use  oh okay , let's forget that one. Fancy looking.


that's yeah that's good.  'Kay that's  we're not doing so badly. Um  easy to use  oh okay , let's forget that one. Fancy looking.


that's yeah that's good.  'Kay that's  we're not doing so badly. Um  easy to use  oh okay , let's forget that one. Fancy looking.

Sure. And we could do whatever we like with the L_ L_C_D_. Yeah let's just assume it's a good L_C_D_ display.


Sure. And we could do whatever we like with the L_ L_C_D_. Yeah let's just assume it's a good L_C_D_ display.


I'd say we go two , 'cause like f the fanciest would be the double curved.


With the articulators. With bells on it.


With the articulators. With bells on it.

that's m that's that's better too. More accurate numbers. Technologically innovative. Well , we're getting rid of the locator thing


that's m that's that's better too. More accurate numbers. Technologically innovative. Well , we're getting rid of the locator thing

Mm. I'd give it a three for this  for that.


Mm. I'd give it a three for this  for that.


Mm. I'd give it a three for this  for that.

Yeah. I mean the menus thing is something you don't normally see on um on a remote ,


Yeah. I mean the menus thing is something you don't normally see on um on a remote ,


Yeah. I mean the menus thing is something you don't normally see on um on a remote ,

but  you see it in a lot of other places.


but  you see it in a lot of other places.


but  you see it in a lot of other places.

And y what you're doing is moving the menu from the television to the remote control , so it's


And y what you're doing is moving the menu from the television to the remote control , so it's


And y what you're doing is moving the menu from the television to the remote control , so it's

You say three ? I might go as far as two on that. Three.


You say three ? I might go as far as two on that. Three.


We'll get panned on the next one , anyway.


We'll get panned on the next one , anyway.

Okay. Materials that people find pleasing.


We'll get panned on the next one , anyway.

Okay. Materials that people find pleasing.

Sponginess is what they really would have wanted , apparently.


Okay. Materials that people find pleasing.

Sponginess is what they really would have wanted , apparently.


Sponginess is what they really would have wanted , apparently.

Um because of the way that we've minimalised the number of buttons and such.


Um because of the way that we've minimalised the number of buttons and such.

Plastic , it sucks. But it's no worse than any of the other pl remote controls we have.


Plastic , it sucks. But it's no worse than any of the other pl remote controls we have.


Plastic , it sucks. But it's no worse than any of the other pl remote controls we have.

Mm-hmm. I'd s I I'd give it a six , to be honest.


Mm-hmm. I'd s I I'd give it a six , to be honest.


Okay , that's totally thrown everything off balance. Inspired by the latest interior and clothing fashion. W we could. What colour were we gonna make it ?


Okay , that's totally thrown everything off balance. Inspired by the latest interior and clothing fashion. W we could. What colour were we gonna make it ?

Well I I I would sa I would say give a s give a selection of colours.


Well I I I would sa I would say give a s give a selection of colours.

Um we went with yellow we went with yellow for the prototype


Um we went with yellow we went with yellow for the prototype

'cause we had yellow. If I were buying one , I'd go for purple. Leopard print would be cool.


Um we went with yellow we went with yellow for the prototype

'cause we had yellow. If I were buying one , I'd go for purple. Leopard print would be cool.

But um by this I think it's more a case of fruit and veg ,


'cause we had yellow. If I were buying one , I'd go for purple. Leopard print would be cool.

But um by this I think it's more a case of fruit and veg ,

Yeah we gotta . I'd say the colour of the border there world  you'd find that ,  that's that'd stand out.


But um by this I think it's more a case of fruit and veg ,

Yeah we gotta . I'd say the colour of the border there world  you'd find that ,  that's that'd stand out.

Like yellow , yeah. It would also help keep the the product placement s


Yeah we gotta . I'd say the colour of the border there world  you'd find that ,  that's that'd stand out.

Like yellow , yeah. It would also help keep the the product placement s


Like yellow , yeah. It would also help keep the the product placement s


But  Th th they're referring to the fruit and veg thing.


But  Th th they're referring to the fruit and veg thing.

Is this like a banana type colour ? Could we stretch  no still , it's not shaped like a banana is


Is this like a banana type colour ? Could we stretch  no still , it's not shaped like a banana is


I I think s I I think this isn't  not particularly fruit and veggie. Um.


I I think s I I think this isn't  not particularly fruit and veggie. Um.

Yeah. Or we might have to suffer badly for this one as well.


Yeah. Or we might have to suffer badly for this one as well.

I mean it's probably more fruit and veg than most other things out there bar fruit and veg , so ,  what , four ?


I mean it's probably more fruit and veg than most other things out there bar fruit and veg , so ,  what , four ?


I mean it's probably more fruit and veg than most other things out there bar fruit and veg , so ,  what , four ?

Mm. I'd  I'd I don't think fruit and veg is the sole criterion.  Is the sole criterion for being um fashion  fashionable or inspired by current fashions.


Mm. I'd  I'd I don't think fruit and veg is the sole criterion.  Is the sole criterion for being um fashion  fashionable or inspired by current fashions.


Um I'd g I'd rate I'd rate this fairly highly from that point of view actually.


Um I'd g I'd rate I'd rate this fairly highly from that point of view actually.

Well this this what we're gonna t this is their motto , like.


Well this this what we're gonna t this is their motto , like.

This is their strategy. I m imagine we actually had some money invested in this and the amount that we invest is gonna be proportional to the marks. Might  we might wanna be a bit more skepible sceptical about this one.


This is their strategy. I m imagine we actually had some money invested in this and the amount that we invest is gonna be proportional to the marks. Might  we might wanna be a bit more skepible sceptical about this one.


This is their strategy. I m imagine we actually had some money invested in this and the amount that we invest is gonna be proportional to the marks. Might  we might wanna be a bit more skepible sceptical about this one.

I would say  I mean it's it's not at all , right ?  In any way or shape or form.


I would say  I mean it's it's not at all , right ?  In any way or shape or form.


I would say  I mean it's it's not at all , right ?  In any way or shape or form.

and we can make it yellow , and that's pretty much banana like.


and we can make it yellow , and that's pretty much banana like.

Okay , the the yellow banana like thing is I think is okay.


Okay , the the yellow banana like thing is I think is okay.

Am I  do you think I'm stretching the uh the use of the banana ?


Am I  do you think I'm stretching the uh the use of the banana ?


Am I  do you think I'm stretching the uh the use of the banana ?

Five.  Yeah. 'Kay , so we have one , two , three , four , five , six , seven. So five , seven , ten , sixteen , twenty one. Which gives us an average of three. It's  well this would be in the middle. So we it's it's not bad. It's in the good section.


Am I  do you think I'm stretching the uh the use of the banana ?

Five.  Yeah. 'Kay , so we have one , two , three , four , five , six , seven. So five , seven , ten , sixteen , twenty one. Which gives us an average of three. It's  well this would be in the middle. So we it's it's not bad. It's in the good section.

It's not bad and considering the   don't pick the pen. Um.


Five.  Yeah. 'Kay , so we have one , two , three , four , five , six , seven. So five , seven , ten , sixteen , twenty one. Which gives us an average of three. It's  well this would be in the middle. So we it's it's not bad. It's in the good section.

It's not bad and considering the   don't pick the pen. Um.


It's not bad and considering the   don't pick the pen. Um.


considering the price we had to get this in , to have a positive  you know , even based on the four of us being heavily biased , um


considering the price we had to get this in , to have a positive  you know , even based on the four of us being heavily biased , um

it was gonna be quite hard to get anything standing out I'd say possibly , based on um the the cost features.


it was gonna be quite hard to get anything standing out I'd say possibly , based on um the the cost features.


it was gonna be quite hard to get anything standing out I'd say possibly , based on um the the cost features.

Even if we were to increase this entire thing by by seven , we were to go down a grade to to four , we would have to do  I mean we didn't we weren't that kinda optimistic too optim overly optimistic. You know like we didn't we didn't add we didn't subtract a whole seven points from these things , so I think we're definitely on the good bit.


Even if we were to increase this entire thing by by seven , we were to go down a grade to to four , we would have to do  I mean we didn't we weren't that kinda optimistic too optim overly optimistic. You know like we didn't we didn't add we didn't subtract a whole seven points from these things , so I think we're definitely on the good bit.

Even if we gave this one seven and this one seven , that's still only three extra points over seven. You know , it's  yeah ,


Even if we were to increase this entire thing by by seven , we were to go down a grade to to four , we would have to do  I mean we didn't we weren't that kinda optimistic too optim overly optimistic. You know like we didn't we didn't add we didn't subtract a whole seven points from these things , so I think we're definitely on the good bit.

Even if we gave this one seven and this one seven , that's still only three extra points over seven. You know , it's  yeah ,

Mm. Personally , I think given that the product um only replaces a single remote control


Even if we gave this one seven and this one seven , that's still only three extra points over seven. You know , it's  yeah ,

Mm. Personally , I think given that the product um only replaces a single remote control

that you've already got , are people really gonna shell out twenty five Euros for something that's only marginally good ?


Mm. Personally , I think given that the product um only replaces a single remote control

that you've already got , are people really gonna shell out twenty five Euros for something that's only marginally good ?

Well , it depends who your  who's  what the target people are , like you'd say maybe the fashion conscious


that you've already got , are people really gonna shell out twenty five Euros for something that's only marginally good ?

Well , it depends who your  who's  what the target people are , like you'd say maybe the fashion conscious


that you've already got , are people really gonna shell out twenty five Euros for something that's only marginally good ?

Well , it depends who your  who's  what the target people are , like you'd say maybe the fashion conscious

women would be going , oh look at that , 's cool , it looks like a


Well , it depends who your  who's  what the target people are , like you'd say maybe the fashion conscious

women would be going , oh look at that , 's cool , it looks like a


women would be going , oh look at that , 's cool , it looks like a

it's yellow , looks like a banana , it's cool it's gotta  look good in the sitting room.


it's yellow , looks like a banana , it's cool it's gotta  look good in the sitting room.

Rather than the L_C_D_ whereas uh more technical like like more uh people in with the latest technology  it's good , it's got an L_C_D_ screen 's only got two buttons and a joystick. So , which which kind of people would be more likely to buy it ?


it's yellow , looks like a banana , it's cool it's gotta  look good in the sitting room.

Rather than the L_C_D_ whereas uh more technical like like more uh people in with the latest technology  it's good , it's got an L_C_D_ screen 's only got two buttons and a joystick. So , which which kind of people would be more likely to buy it ?

Probably the people technologically. They're usually the ones that buy pointless stuff.


Rather than the L_C_D_ whereas uh more technical like like more uh people in with the latest technology  it's good , it's got an L_C_D_ screen 's only got two buttons and a joystick. So , which which kind of people would be more likely to buy it ?

Probably the people technologically. They're usually the ones that buy pointless stuff.


Rather than the L_C_D_ whereas uh more technical like like more uh people in with the latest technology  it's good , it's got an L_C_D_ screen 's only got two buttons and a joystick. So , which which kind of people would be more likely to buy it ?

Probably the people technologically. They're usually the ones that buy pointless stuff.

I mean my mum still has not learnt how to use text messaging on her phone , and she's had it for a long time , you know. She uses it to make phone calls and that's it.


Probably the people technologically. They're usually the ones that buy pointless stuff.

I mean my mum still has not learnt how to use text messaging on her phone , and she's had it for a long time , you know. She uses it to make phone calls and that's it.

Yeah. So I think if sh if my mum saw a remote control like this with only two buttons and a joystick , I mean that'll probably be the first one she decides not to buy , you know.


I mean my mum still has not learnt how to use text messaging on her phone , and she's had it for a long time , you know. She uses it to make phone calls and that's it.

Yeah. So I think if sh if my mum saw a remote control like this with only two buttons and a joystick , I mean that'll probably be the first one she decides not to buy , you know.


I mean my mum still has not learnt how to use text messaging on her phone , and she's had it for a long time , you know. She uses it to make phone calls and that's it.

Yeah. So I think if sh if my mum saw a remote control like this with only two buttons and a joystick , I mean that'll probably be the first one she decides not to buy , you know.

She'd be like is this a remote control , I don't  how do you use it , and stuff like that. So even if it is really user friendly to us , but we're used to using menus all the time.


Yeah. So I think if sh if my mum saw a remote control like this with only two buttons and a joystick , I mean that'll probably be the first one she decides not to buy , you know.

She'd be like is this a remote control , I don't  how do you use it , and stuff like that. So even if it is really user friendly to us , but we're used to using menus all the time.

Mm-hmm. I s  I suppose one thing is that b because it's technically innovative , um for someone who's sort of technophobic , the fact that it simply looks unfamiliar would be daunting.


She'd be like is this a remote control , I don't  how do you use it , and stuff like that. So even if it is really user friendly to us , but we're used to using menus all the time.

Mm-hmm. I s  I suppose one thing is that b because it's technically innovative , um for someone who's sort of technophobic , the fact that it simply looks unfamiliar would be daunting.


Mm-hmm. I s  I suppose one thing is that b because it's technically innovative , um for someone who's sort of technophobic , the fact that it simply looks unfamiliar would be daunting.

I think it's totally uh radical to have a remote control with no no numbered buttons ,


I think it's totally uh radical to have a remote control with no no numbered buttons ,


Okay. Um don't know how lo much longer we've got. At least five minutes I think. Um quickly we'll pop onto project evaluation. Um. So , we've got these uh four criteria here for uh satisfaction. Does anybody want to um um do you have any opinions on any of them ? For example um  we'll work backwards I suppose. The ability to work on this project using the technology we've been presented with. Um  people made good use of the uh pen and paper ?


I'm not quite sure what the advantage for us using a digital pen might be.


I'm not quite sure what the advantage for us using a digital pen might be.

Well I think this is a  I think the digital pen's mostly for the benefit of the uh


I'm not quite sure what the advantage for us using a digital pen might be.

Well I think this is a  I think the digital pen's mostly for the benefit of the uh

of the researchers studying this. It's all p goes into their corpus.


Well I think this is a  I think the digital pen's mostly for the benefit of the uh

of the researchers studying this. It's all p goes into their corpus.


of the researchers studying this. It's all p goes into their corpus.

Though it would have been nice to be able to transfer the um transfer our n our paper notes onto the uh computer ourselves.


Though it would have been nice to be able to transfer the um transfer our n our paper notes onto the uh computer ourselves.

It does seem like the paper's still a heavy consideration for taking notes. So maybe this is literally just a way around it. Um I dunno. How are people satisfied with the teamwork we've managed to display today ?


It does seem like the paper's still a heavy consideration for taking notes. So maybe this is literally just a way around it. Um I dunno. How are people satisfied with the teamwork we've managed to display today ?


Leadership. As much as can be leadered in this uh thing.


Leadership. As much as can be leadered in this uh thing.

Um last one we've got is room for creativity.


Um last one we've got is room for creativity.


Um last one we've got is room for creativity.

Unti uh uh until uh until accounts came along ,


Unti uh uh until uh until accounts came along ,


We we're not lacking in ideas , you know it's  that was not the problem.


We we're not lacking in ideas , you know it's  that was not the problem.

I think of  in the end , ideas that can be used  sadly . Not so much that we weren't full of ideas , but of ones that are gonna allow us to actually build the thing. It's a bit of a pity.


We we're not lacking in ideas , you know it's  that was not the problem.

I think of  in the end , ideas that can be used  sadly . Not so much that we weren't full of ideas , but of ones that are gonna allow us to actually build the thing. It's a bit of a pity.

Um I would have to agree on that. I think we needed a larger budget.


I think of  in the end , ideas that can be used  sadly . Not so much that we weren't full of ideas , but of ones that are gonna allow us to actually build the thing. It's a bit of a pity.

Um I would have to agree on that. I think we needed a larger budget.


Um I would have to agree on that. I think we needed a larger budget.

If you're going to aim your a um product maybe at the technological kind of sector , then you can afford to maybe jack the price up slightly from what it is.


If you're going to aim your a um product maybe at the technological kind of sector , then you can afford to maybe jack the price up slightly from what it is.

Because they will pay outrageous cash to


If you're going to aim your a um product maybe at the technological kind of sector , then you can afford to maybe jack the price up slightly from what it is.

Because they will pay outrageous cash to

Mm. I mean I th  I mean I think to r retaining the s the more sort of bio-morphic form in the articulation would gain more in s uh would gain more profit in sales than it would lose in uh


Because they will pay outrageous cash to

Mm. I mean I th  I mean I think to r retaining the s the more sort of bio-morphic form in the articulation would gain more in s uh would gain more profit in sales than it would lose in uh


Mm. I mean I th  I mean I think to r retaining the s the more sort of bio-morphic form in the articulation would gain more in s uh would gain more profit in sales than it would lose in uh


And the price was like  it was twice the w assembly cost. And would it have to be twice that ? It could be like coulda had the assembly  like maybe fifteen Euro.


Um I suppose these are all that will have to be taken up with a at a different group at I guess. As to a  the costs involved. But I mean we've got a a prototype.


Um I suppose these are all that will have to be taken up with a at a different group at I guess. As to a  the costs involved. But I mean we've got a a prototype.

So I dunno , I I think it's gone okay today , considering the information that we've had at our disposal , and um such.


Um I suppose these are all that will have to be taken up with a at a different group at I guess. As to a  the costs involved. But I mean we've got a a prototype.

So I dunno , I I think it's gone okay today , considering the information that we've had at our disposal , and um such.

Maybe the counts wou woulda been better if we had a list or more  Yeah , to begin with.


So I dunno , I I think it's gone okay today , considering the information that we've had at our disposal , and um such.

Maybe the counts wou woulda been better if we had a list or more  Yeah , to begin with.


Maybe the counts wou woulda been better if we had a list or more  Yeah , to begin with.

Probably would have  mean we could have come up with a lot more solid design in the end ,


Probably would have  mean we could have come up with a lot more solid design in the end ,


Probably would have  mean we could have come up with a lot more solid design in the end ,

I would have to agree. It is very much a pity to um get so far into the stage and then find out that maybe some of your ideas are just a bit too expensive. Always hard to tell until you know the costs. Um. Okay. Are the costs within budget ? Well ,


Probably would have  mean we could have come up with a lot more solid design in the end ,

I would have to agree. It is very much a pity to um get so far into the stage and then find out that maybe some of your ideas are just a bit too expensive. Always hard to tell until you know the costs. Um. Okay. Are the costs within budget ? Well ,

they are now that we have our slightly less than capable product.


I would have to agree. It is very much a pity to um get so far into the stage and then find out that maybe some of your ideas are just a bit too expensive. Always hard to tell until you know the costs. Um. Okay. Are the costs within budget ? Well ,

they are now that we have our slightly less than capable product.


I would have to agree. It is very much a pity to um get so far into the stage and then find out that maybe some of your ideas are just a bit too expensive. Always hard to tell until you know the costs. Um. Okay. Are the costs within budget ? Well ,

they are now that we have our slightly less than capable product.

We've evaluated it , and we can say that we came out with a value of three.


they are now that we have our slightly less than capable product.

We've evaluated it , and we can say that we came out with a value of three.


We've evaluated it , and we can say that we came out with a value of three.

Actually I want th one thing I would say


We've evaluated it , and we can say that we came out with a value of three.

Actually I want th one thing I would say

I mean something that could perhaps be part of the product mm the um m product testing market research process would be to uh produce mock-ups of both versions and see just how much of a difference the over  going over-budget um m would make to sales.


Actually I want th one thing I would say

I mean something that could perhaps be part of the product mm the um m product testing market research process would be to uh produce mock-ups of both versions and see just how much of a difference the over  going over-budget um m would make to sales.


I mean something that could perhaps be part of the product mm the um m product testing market research process would be to uh produce mock-ups of both versions and see just how much of a difference the over  going over-budget um m would make to sales.

And we could even you know , market two versions.


And we could even you know , market two versions.

Wee cheapie version with the nice bio-morphic rubber.


And we could even you know , market two versions.

Wee cheapie version with the nice bio-morphic rubber.

And then the final one where you get to call it Hal.


Wee cheapie version with the nice bio-morphic rubber.

And then the final one where you get to call it Hal.


And then the final one where you get to call it Hal.


is there anything else that anybody would like to to add , um  anything they think that's not been covered , before I quickly write up a final report. Um I dunno , I mean we've got a product. We maybe aren't as happy with it as we'd like to be , but we've got something we think we can maybe stick onto the the market and sell. And of course something we have been avoiding talking about 'cause of we've no information is selling them directly to the manufacturers. There is a huge market.


is there anything else that anybody would like to to add , um  anything they think that's not been covered , before I quickly write up a final report. Um I dunno , I mean we've got a product. We maybe aren't as happy with it as we'd like to be , but we've got something we think we can maybe stick onto the the market and sell. And of course something we have been avoiding talking about 'cause of we've no information is selling them directly to the manufacturers. There is a huge market.

I mean we've briefly touched on it but we've no more knowledge then there's little we can say on that.


I mean we've briefly touched on it but we've no more knowledge then there's little we can say on that.


I mean we've briefly touched on it but we've no more knowledge then there's little we can say on that.

Yeah. So um unless anybody's got anything they'd like to add , we can maybe round this up slightly earlier than we'd need to and then we can finish up the writing and such.


Yeah. So um unless anybody's got anything they'd like to add , we can maybe round this up slightly earlier than we'd need to and then we can finish up the writing and such.


I was actually kind of upset you know at the budget , and that we had to cut a lot of stuff. It's like man , we we can't have the locator thing. And s yeah that's just bad. Do you think maybe  the prices were were made ?


Okay, good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and Hefin David, and we've got no substitutions. Can I ask if Members have any declarations of interest? Can I just, then, declare for the record that I chair the cross-party group on suicide prevention and that Samaritans Cymru, who are appearing before us later, provide the secretariat for that group, just for that to be on the record? Item 2, then, is an evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school, and I'm very pleased to welcome our panel of witnesses this morning: Sharon Davies, head of learning, Torfaen County Borough Council and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; Nick Williams, director of education, Swansea city and county council, and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; and David Hopkins, interim head of education at the Welsh Local Government Association. Thank you very much, all of you, for attending. We've got a lot of ground we'd like to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay. And if I can just start by asking you what you believe the main reasons are for the increase in the number of exclusions from school.

I'll start, if that's okay. I think one of the things we're experiencing across the system in Wales is more examples of very challenging behaviour. I think the prevalence of ASD—autism spectrum disorder—and trying to get the learners the right provision is sometimes a challenge. Obviously, I can speak more about my own local authority in Swansea: the numbers have increased about fourfold over the last five, six years, so what's presenting as difficult behaviour can also sometimes be additional learning needs as well, and the system's struggling a little bit to catch up to have enough capacity to do that, so that is placing pressure on schools and then, in turn, pressure on the EOTAS, including our pupil referral units, because, obviously, we just probably haven't got enough capacity at the moment in the system.

Okay. Anybody got anything to add to that, or—?


I'll start, if that's okay. I think one of the things we're experiencing across the system in Wales is more examples of very challenging behaviour. I think the prevalence of ASD—autism spectrum disorder—and trying to get the learners the right provision is sometimes a challenge. Obviously, I can speak more about my own local authority in Swansea: the numbers have increased about fourfold over the last five, six years, so what's presenting as difficult behaviour can also sometimes be additional learning needs as well, and the system's struggling a little bit to catch up to have enough capacity to do that, so that is placing pressure on schools and then, in turn, pressure on the EOTAS, including our pupil referral units, because, obviously, we just probably haven't got enough capacity at the moment in the system.

Okay. Anybody got anything to add to that, or—?

No, I think that's what we're seeing in Torfaen as well. I'd second that.


I'll start, if that's okay. I think one of the things we're experiencing across the system in Wales is more examples of very challenging behaviour. I think the prevalence of ASD—autism spectrum disorder—and trying to get the learners the right provision is sometimes a challenge. Obviously, I can speak more about my own local authority in Swansea: the numbers have increased about fourfold over the last five, six years, so what's presenting as difficult behaviour can also sometimes be additional learning needs as well, and the system's struggling a little bit to catch up to have enough capacity to do that, so that is placing pressure on schools and then, in turn, pressure on the EOTAS, including our pupil referral units, because, obviously, we just probably haven't got enough capacity at the moment in the system.

Okay. Anybody got anything to add to that, or—?

No, I think that's what we're seeing in Torfaen as well. I'd second that.

Okay. So, to what extent, then, do local authorities have clear strategies for support and reintegration, and a continuum of provision to meet the needs of learners who are either at risk of exclusion, or disengagement?


Okay. Anybody got anything to add to that, or—?

No, I think that's what we're seeing in Torfaen as well. I'd second that.

Okay. So, to what extent, then, do local authorities have clear strategies for support and reintegration, and a continuum of provision to meet the needs of learners who are either at risk of exclusion, or disengagement?

Well, we've just developed a behaviour and well-being strategy, which, with our schools—and I'm aware, because I work in the south-west and mid Wales region, and I know some of the other local authorities have something similar, and, similarly, I chair the EOTAS network across Wales, and I know many local authorities are going in that direction, so that has a tiered approach, or staged approach, or whichever, so that there's universal provision. I think it's something that—you know, we need to make sure that our staff and our schools are well-equipped to meet these needs, but there will always, unfortunately, be some learners who need more specialist provision. So, it's equipping them with those sorts of skills, really. I think it's certainly moved forward from where we were two of three years ago. But there's a little bit of lag in the system, trying to bring everybody up to the same, consistent level. But I think work is afoot in nearly all local authorities, as far as I'm aware.


No, I think that's what we're seeing in Torfaen as well. I'd second that.

Okay. So, to what extent, then, do local authorities have clear strategies for support and reintegration, and a continuum of provision to meet the needs of learners who are either at risk of exclusion, or disengagement?

Well, we've just developed a behaviour and well-being strategy, which, with our schools—and I'm aware, because I work in the south-west and mid Wales region, and I know some of the other local authorities have something similar, and, similarly, I chair the EOTAS network across Wales, and I know many local authorities are going in that direction, so that has a tiered approach, or staged approach, or whichever, so that there's universal provision. I think it's something that—you know, we need to make sure that our staff and our schools are well-equipped to meet these needs, but there will always, unfortunately, be some learners who need more specialist provision. So, it's equipping them with those sorts of skills, really. I think it's certainly moved forward from where we were two of three years ago. But there's a little bit of lag in the system, trying to bring everybody up to the same, consistent level. But I think work is afoot in nearly all local authorities, as far as I'm aware.

Okay. In terms of school accountability measures, do you think that they have had an impact on the rise in exclusions?


Okay. So, to what extent, then, do local authorities have clear strategies for support and reintegration, and a continuum of provision to meet the needs of learners who are either at risk of exclusion, or disengagement?

Well, we've just developed a behaviour and well-being strategy, which, with our schools—and I'm aware, because I work in the south-west and mid Wales region, and I know some of the other local authorities have something similar, and, similarly, I chair the EOTAS network across Wales, and I know many local authorities are going in that direction, so that has a tiered approach, or staged approach, or whichever, so that there's universal provision. I think it's something that—you know, we need to make sure that our staff and our schools are well-equipped to meet these needs, but there will always, unfortunately, be some learners who need more specialist provision. So, it's equipping them with those sorts of skills, really. I think it's certainly moved forward from where we were two of three years ago. But there's a little bit of lag in the system, trying to bring everybody up to the same, consistent level. But I think work is afoot in nearly all local authorities, as far as I'm aware.

Okay. In terms of school accountability measures, do you think that they have had an impact on the rise in exclusions?

When we're looking at the accountabilities, there's a huge amount of pressures on schools to perform, and I think the whole culture that the schools are within does play an element of it to some—. There is a shift in that culture. We are seeing a change with the interim measures coming on board, but I think there's going to be a lag in the system before we see that having a knock-on effect on our learners, because, undoubtedly, there are pressures on schools.


Well, we've just developed a behaviour and well-being strategy, which, with our schools—and I'm aware, because I work in the south-west and mid Wales region, and I know some of the other local authorities have something similar, and, similarly, I chair the EOTAS network across Wales, and I know many local authorities are going in that direction, so that has a tiered approach, or staged approach, or whichever, so that there's universal provision. I think it's something that—you know, we need to make sure that our staff and our schools are well-equipped to meet these needs, but there will always, unfortunately, be some learners who need more specialist provision. So, it's equipping them with those sorts of skills, really. I think it's certainly moved forward from where we were two of three years ago. But there's a little bit of lag in the system, trying to bring everybody up to the same, consistent level. But I think work is afoot in nearly all local authorities, as far as I'm aware.

Okay. In terms of school accountability measures, do you think that they have had an impact on the rise in exclusions?

When we're looking at the accountabilities, there's a huge amount of pressures on schools to perform, and I think the whole culture that the schools are within does play an element of it to some—. There is a shift in that culture. We are seeing a change with the interim measures coming on board, but I think there's going to be a lag in the system before we see that having a knock-on effect on our learners, because, undoubtedly, there are pressures on schools.

So, you've seen an improvement since the capped 9 has been brought in?


Okay. In terms of school accountability measures, do you think that they have had an impact on the rise in exclusions?

When we're looking at the accountabilities, there's a huge amount of pressures on schools to perform, and I think the whole culture that the schools are within does play an element of it to some—. There is a shift in that culture. We are seeing a change with the interim measures coming on board, but I think there's going to be a lag in the system before we see that having a knock-on effect on our learners, because, undoubtedly, there are pressures on schools.

So, you've seen an improvement since the capped 9 has been brought in?

I think it's early to say, but certainly we're working towards that improvement. I can only speak for Torfaen—we've been working really hard on our exclusions and working with our schools to ensure that the curriculum is broad and balanced, and accounts for every learner within the system.


When we're looking at the accountabilities, there's a huge amount of pressures on schools to perform, and I think the whole culture that the schools are within does play an element of it to some—. There is a shift in that culture. We are seeing a change with the interim measures coming on board, but I think there's going to be a lag in the system before we see that having a knock-on effect on our learners, because, undoubtedly, there are pressures on schools.

So, you've seen an improvement since the capped 9 has been brought in?

I think it's early to say, but certainly we're working towards that improvement. I can only speak for Torfaen—we've been working really hard on our exclusions and working with our schools to ensure that the curriculum is broad and balanced, and accounts for every learner within the system.


So, you've seen an improvement since the capped 9 has been brought in?

I think it's early to say, but certainly we're working towards that improvement. I can only speak for Torfaen—we've been working really hard on our exclusions and working with our schools to ensure that the curriculum is broad and balanced, and accounts for every learner within the system.


I think it's early to say, but certainly we're working towards that improvement. I can only speak for Torfaen—we've been working really hard on our exclusions and working with our schools to ensure that the curriculum is broad and balanced, and accounts for every learner within the system.

The messages that the Government is conveying to us and the messages we convey as directors and councils are important as well. So, we always tell them that it's the progression of the children in the future that's important, not just reaching up to the level. So, it's more complex than that, and it's important to share that. And in fairness to Estyn—Estyn has changed its mind as well. So, messages such as those are being conveyed now, and I think that the schools do understand now the expectation and what's expected of them.


The messages that the Government is conveying to us and the messages we convey as directors and councils are important as well. So, we always tell them that it's the progression of the children in the future that's important, not just reaching up to the level. So, it's more complex than that, and it's important to share that. And in fairness to Estyn—Estyn has changed its mind as well. So, messages such as those are being conveyed now, and I think that the schools do understand now the expectation and what's expected of them.

Okay. In terms of parents, what are local authorities doing to actually engage parents of children and young people who are either EOTAS or at risk of becoming EOTAS?


The messages that the Government is conveying to us and the messages we convey as directors and councils are important as well. So, we always tell them that it's the progression of the children in the future that's important, not just reaching up to the level. So, it's more complex than that, and it's important to share that. And in fairness to Estyn—Estyn has changed its mind as well. So, messages such as those are being conveyed now, and I think that the schools do understand now the expectation and what's expected of them.

Okay. In terms of parents, what are local authorities doing to actually engage parents of children and young people who are either EOTAS or at risk of becoming EOTAS?

I'll answer this in English. Again, I know perhaps Swansea and Neath Port Talbot—we have a team-around-the-family approach. So, as you say, it's more complicated than just the child behaving in a certain way, or being school-anxious, whatever the issue is. So, it's sort of bringing all of the agencies together to try and look at how we can proactively solve problems and support the families. Because nearly always, the behaviours that are demonstrated, or come out in schools, or whatever provision, is obviously probably greater in the home environment, so there's a whole—. We understand the complexities and the need for a whole-family, almost, approach to support.


The messages that the Government is conveying to us and the messages we convey as directors and councils are important as well. So, we always tell them that it's the progression of the children in the future that's important, not just reaching up to the level. So, it's more complex than that, and it's important to share that. And in fairness to Estyn—Estyn has changed its mind as well. So, messages such as those are being conveyed now, and I think that the schools do understand now the expectation and what's expected of them.

Okay. In terms of parents, what are local authorities doing to actually engage parents of children and young people who are either EOTAS or at risk of becoming EOTAS?

I'll answer this in English. Again, I know perhaps Swansea and Neath Port Talbot—we have a team-around-the-family approach. So, as you say, it's more complicated than just the child behaving in a certain way, or being school-anxious, whatever the issue is. So, it's sort of bringing all of the agencies together to try and look at how we can proactively solve problems and support the families. Because nearly always, the behaviours that are demonstrated, or come out in schools, or whatever provision, is obviously probably greater in the home environment, so there's a whole—. We understand the complexities and the need for a whole-family, almost, approach to support.

And do you think that all local authorities have got that understanding across Wales?


Okay. In terms of parents, what are local authorities doing to actually engage parents of children and young people who are either EOTAS or at risk of becoming EOTAS?

I'll answer this in English. Again, I know perhaps Swansea and Neath Port Talbot—we have a team-around-the-family approach. So, as you say, it's more complicated than just the child behaving in a certain way, or being school-anxious, whatever the issue is. So, it's sort of bringing all of the agencies together to try and look at how we can proactively solve problems and support the families. Because nearly always, the behaviours that are demonstrated, or come out in schools, or whatever provision, is obviously probably greater in the home environment, so there's a whole—. We understand the complexities and the need for a whole-family, almost, approach to support.

And do you think that all local authorities have got that understanding across Wales?


I'll answer this in English. Again, I know perhaps Swansea and Neath Port Talbot—we have a team-around-the-family approach. So, as you say, it's more complicated than just the child behaving in a certain way, or being school-anxious, whatever the issue is. So, it's sort of bringing all of the agencies together to try and look at how we can proactively solve problems and support the families. Because nearly always, the behaviours that are demonstrated, or come out in schools, or whatever provision, is obviously probably greater in the home environment, so there's a whole—. We understand the complexities and the need for a whole-family, almost, approach to support.

And do you think that all local authorities have got that understanding across Wales?


And do you think that all local authorities have got that understanding across Wales?

Yes, it's quite common practice. As Nick mentioned, it is about that multi-agency approach—it is working with social care, working with health colleagues, to look at the whole package that goes into these families and to our learners.


Yes, it's quite common practice. As Nick mentioned, it is about that multi-agency approach—it is working with social care, working with health colleagues, to look at the whole package that goes into these families and to our learners.

Certainly with schools, I know across Wales we've done a lot of training on adverse childhood experiences and trauma-informed practice, so at least people can perhaps better understand some of the reasons why this behaviour is coming through, whereas in the past—I'm thinking myself, now, as a teacher—they were just difficult behaviours. I didn't really know the background to possibly why those behaviours were coming through. So, I think we are more informed as a profession.


Yes, it's quite common practice. As Nick mentioned, it is about that multi-agency approach—it is working with social care, working with health colleagues, to look at the whole package that goes into these families and to our learners.

Certainly with schools, I know across Wales we've done a lot of training on adverse childhood experiences and trauma-informed practice, so at least people can perhaps better understand some of the reasons why this behaviour is coming through, whereas in the past—I'm thinking myself, now, as a teacher—they were just difficult behaviours. I didn't really know the background to possibly why those behaviours were coming through. So, I think we are more informed as a profession.

Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on funding from Siân Gwenllian.


Yes, it's quite common practice. As Nick mentioned, it is about that multi-agency approach—it is working with social care, working with health colleagues, to look at the whole package that goes into these families and to our learners.

Certainly with schools, I know across Wales we've done a lot of training on adverse childhood experiences and trauma-informed practice, so at least people can perhaps better understand some of the reasons why this behaviour is coming through, whereas in the past—I'm thinking myself, now, as a teacher—they were just difficult behaviours. I didn't really know the background to possibly why those behaviours were coming through. So, I think we are more informed as a profession.

Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on funding from Siân Gwenllian.

May I begin, maybe, with a question, generally speaking—? We're all aware of the funding issues and the challenges of funding that face schools in general. So, can this lead to more exclusions, because additional learning needs have been hit in light of these challenges, and then that the side-effects of that creates more exclusions?


Certainly with schools, I know across Wales we've done a lot of training on adverse childhood experiences and trauma-informed practice, so at least people can perhaps better understand some of the reasons why this behaviour is coming through, whereas in the past—I'm thinking myself, now, as a teacher—they were just difficult behaviours. I didn't really know the background to possibly why those behaviours were coming through. So, I think we are more informed as a profession.

Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on funding from Siân Gwenllian.

May I begin, maybe, with a question, generally speaking—? We're all aware of the funding issues and the challenges of funding that face schools in general. So, can this lead to more exclusions, because additional learning needs have been hit in light of these challenges, and then that the side-effects of that creates more exclusions?

In particular now with the new Act coming into force, that's going to place more pressure on the system. In Torfaen, we know that we have schools that are looking at their funding—they are behind, and they have to make these hard choices. And sometimes, they have to look at every aspect within the school in terms of their learners, then, and that does place additional pressure on the schools.


Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on funding from Siân Gwenllian.

May I begin, maybe, with a question, generally speaking—? We're all aware of the funding issues and the challenges of funding that face schools in general. So, can this lead to more exclusions, because additional learning needs have been hit in light of these challenges, and then that the side-effects of that creates more exclusions?

In particular now with the new Act coming into force, that's going to place more pressure on the system. In Torfaen, we know that we have schools that are looking at their funding—they are behind, and they have to make these hard choices. And sometimes, they have to look at every aspect within the school in terms of their learners, then, and that does place additional pressure on the schools.

Is the additional learning needs sector being adversely affected, worse than—?


May I begin, maybe, with a question, generally speaking—? We're all aware of the funding issues and the challenges of funding that face schools in general. So, can this lead to more exclusions, because additional learning needs have been hit in light of these challenges, and then that the side-effects of that creates more exclusions?

In particular now with the new Act coming into force, that's going to place more pressure on the system. In Torfaen, we know that we have schools that are looking at their funding—they are behind, and they have to make these hard choices. And sometimes, they have to look at every aspect within the school in terms of their learners, then, and that does place additional pressure on the schools.

Is the additional learning needs sector being adversely affected, worse than—?

I'm not sure whether it's being worse affected, but certainly there's pressure, in particular with the new Act coming in, and that's going to place more pressure on the system.


In particular now with the new Act coming into force, that's going to place more pressure on the system. In Torfaen, we know that we have schools that are looking at their funding—they are behind, and they have to make these hard choices. And sometimes, they have to look at every aspect within the school in terms of their learners, then, and that does place additional pressure on the schools.

Is the additional learning needs sector being adversely affected, worse than—?

I'm not sure whether it's being worse affected, but certainly there's pressure, in particular with the new Act coming in, and that's going to place more pressure on the system.

But maybe we need to spend more in light of the new Act?


Is the additional learning needs sector being adversely affected, worse than—?

I'm not sure whether it's being worse affected, but certainly there's pressure, in particular with the new Act coming in, and that's going to place more pressure on the system.

But maybe we need to spend more in light of the new Act?


I'm not sure whether it's being worse affected, but certainly there's pressure, in particular with the new Act coming in, and that's going to place more pressure on the system.

But maybe we need to spend more in light of the new Act?


But maybe we need to spend more in light of the new Act?


The same, really. But just sometimes, the Government doesn't think about the staff in the pupil referral units, because we've gone back to the Government to tell them, 'Right, you've provided money to school staff, but what about staff that need training—perhaps more than staff in the school sector?' And in fairness, they have addressed that, but perhaps it's not at the forefront of their minds when they're thinking of providing funding to the schools. So, it's a little bit of an afterthought. But this will be needed in the future, certainly.


The same, really. But just sometimes, the Government doesn't think about the staff in the pupil referral units, because we've gone back to the Government to tell them, 'Right, you've provided money to school staff, but what about staff that need training—perhaps more than staff in the school sector?' And in fairness, they have addressed that, but perhaps it's not at the forefront of their minds when they're thinking of providing funding to the schools. So, it's a little bit of an afterthought. But this will be needed in the future, certainly.

And maybe I can ask the WLGA: are the difficulties that can arise between the money that is kept back by local authorities and the funding that goes directly to schools—can that therefore affect the kind of provision that's happening from authority to authority?


The same, really. But just sometimes, the Government doesn't think about the staff in the pupil referral units, because we've gone back to the Government to tell them, 'Right, you've provided money to school staff, but what about staff that need training—perhaps more than staff in the school sector?' And in fairness, they have addressed that, but perhaps it's not at the forefront of their minds when they're thinking of providing funding to the schools. So, it's a little bit of an afterthought. But this will be needed in the future, certainly.

And maybe I can ask the WLGA: are the difficulties that can arise between the money that is kept back by local authorities and the funding that goes directly to schools—can that therefore affect the kind of provision that's happening from authority to authority?

Yes, sure. The delegation levels are already very high in most authority areas, and we've got agreements in place with the Government to make sure that more money, or as much money as possible, is devolved to schools. So, I don't think that's a direct factor. I think the factors that really affect exclusions, which is where I think the question came from: you've got the very narrow measure at the end of key stage 4 attainment, which I think has put pressure on some schools, certainly, and headteachers have felt that—sometimes excluded, or otherwise put into another school as a consequence, which is regrettable, but that's what's happened. And on the additional learning needs side, whilst the Minister has currently made some more money available, if we look at experiences that have happened in England, in particular, because there are direct parallels there with legislation, we know from those experiences that ALN funding has become increasingly under pressure—there have been big issues around tribunals, to the point where local authorities at one point almost gave up going to tribunals, because they were losing them time and time again. So, there are financial pressures there, but I don't think the levels of delegation have any impact on that.


The same, really. But just sometimes, the Government doesn't think about the staff in the pupil referral units, because we've gone back to the Government to tell them, 'Right, you've provided money to school staff, but what about staff that need training—perhaps more than staff in the school sector?' And in fairness, they have addressed that, but perhaps it's not at the forefront of their minds when they're thinking of providing funding to the schools. So, it's a little bit of an afterthought. But this will be needed in the future, certainly.

And maybe I can ask the WLGA: are the difficulties that can arise between the money that is kept back by local authorities and the funding that goes directly to schools—can that therefore affect the kind of provision that's happening from authority to authority?

Yes, sure. The delegation levels are already very high in most authority areas, and we've got agreements in place with the Government to make sure that more money, or as much money as possible, is devolved to schools. So, I don't think that's a direct factor. I think the factors that really affect exclusions, which is where I think the question came from: you've got the very narrow measure at the end of key stage 4 attainment, which I think has put pressure on some schools, certainly, and headteachers have felt that—sometimes excluded, or otherwise put into another school as a consequence, which is regrettable, but that's what's happened. And on the additional learning needs side, whilst the Minister has currently made some more money available, if we look at experiences that have happened in England, in particular, because there are direct parallels there with legislation, we know from those experiences that ALN funding has become increasingly under pressure—there have been big issues around tribunals, to the point where local authorities at one point almost gave up going to tribunals, because they were losing them time and time again. So, there are financial pressures there, but I don't think the levels of delegation have any impact on that.

Okay. But just the pressures coming in with the new Act et cetera could mean more expulsions.


And maybe I can ask the WLGA: are the difficulties that can arise between the money that is kept back by local authorities and the funding that goes directly to schools—can that therefore affect the kind of provision that's happening from authority to authority?

Yes, sure. The delegation levels are already very high in most authority areas, and we've got agreements in place with the Government to make sure that more money, or as much money as possible, is devolved to schools. So, I don't think that's a direct factor. I think the factors that really affect exclusions, which is where I think the question came from: you've got the very narrow measure at the end of key stage 4 attainment, which I think has put pressure on some schools, certainly, and headteachers have felt that—sometimes excluded, or otherwise put into another school as a consequence, which is regrettable, but that's what's happened. And on the additional learning needs side, whilst the Minister has currently made some more money available, if we look at experiences that have happened in England, in particular, because there are direct parallels there with legislation, we know from those experiences that ALN funding has become increasingly under pressure—there have been big issues around tribunals, to the point where local authorities at one point almost gave up going to tribunals, because they were losing them time and time again. So, there are financial pressures there, but I don't think the levels of delegation have any impact on that.

Okay. But just the pressures coming in with the new Act et cetera could mean more expulsions.

It shouldn't, but it could. It's difficult to know how headteachers and governing bodies will react. If they're under pressure financially or in terms of performance measures, they will react in a particular way. Culturally, we've got to get to the point, I think, particularly with the new curriculum coming in, where we say, 'Look, forget the narrow measures that you're being judged by. We're trying to agree with partners, including Estyn and the Welsh Government, a broader range of measures.' That, in a sense, may provide opportunities for schools, and local authorities, to look more constructively at this whole area. So, that's one area, but you're right, I think the ALN legislation will put pressures on, not just local authorities and schools, but also on the post-16 sector, because we're talking now about a wider age range—doing up to 25 as well. So, we've got a host of issues, I think, there to consider and work our way through.


Yes, sure. The delegation levels are already very high in most authority areas, and we've got agreements in place with the Government to make sure that more money, or as much money as possible, is devolved to schools. So, I don't think that's a direct factor. I think the factors that really affect exclusions, which is where I think the question came from: you've got the very narrow measure at the end of key stage 4 attainment, which I think has put pressure on some schools, certainly, and headteachers have felt that—sometimes excluded, or otherwise put into another school as a consequence, which is regrettable, but that's what's happened. And on the additional learning needs side, whilst the Minister has currently made some more money available, if we look at experiences that have happened in England, in particular, because there are direct parallels there with legislation, we know from those experiences that ALN funding has become increasingly under pressure—there have been big issues around tribunals, to the point where local authorities at one point almost gave up going to tribunals, because they were losing them time and time again. So, there are financial pressures there, but I don't think the levels of delegation have any impact on that.

Okay. But just the pressures coming in with the new Act et cetera could mean more expulsions.

It shouldn't, but it could. It's difficult to know how headteachers and governing bodies will react. If they're under pressure financially or in terms of performance measures, they will react in a particular way. Culturally, we've got to get to the point, I think, particularly with the new curriculum coming in, where we say, 'Look, forget the narrow measures that you're being judged by. We're trying to agree with partners, including Estyn and the Welsh Government, a broader range of measures.' That, in a sense, may provide opportunities for schools, and local authorities, to look more constructively at this whole area. So, that's one area, but you're right, I think the ALN legislation will put pressures on, not just local authorities and schools, but also on the post-16 sector, because we're talking now about a wider age range—doing up to 25 as well. So, we've got a host of issues, I think, there to consider and work our way through.

And is the fact that there's variation from term to term, from week to week sometimes, in the level of provision that a school is going to have to provide for trying to retain those pupils in mainstream schools—is the fact that there is so much variation creating a specific challenge, and maybe that that leads to more exclusions?


Okay. But just the pressures coming in with the new Act et cetera could mean more expulsions.

It shouldn't, but it could. It's difficult to know how headteachers and governing bodies will react. If they're under pressure financially or in terms of performance measures, they will react in a particular way. Culturally, we've got to get to the point, I think, particularly with the new curriculum coming in, where we say, 'Look, forget the narrow measures that you're being judged by. We're trying to agree with partners, including Estyn and the Welsh Government, a broader range of measures.' That, in a sense, may provide opportunities for schools, and local authorities, to look more constructively at this whole area. So, that's one area, but you're right, I think the ALN legislation will put pressures on, not just local authorities and schools, but also on the post-16 sector, because we're talking now about a wider age range—doing up to 25 as well. So, we've got a host of issues, I think, there to consider and work our way through.

And is the fact that there's variation from term to term, from week to week sometimes, in the level of provision that a school is going to have to provide for trying to retain those pupils in mainstream schools—is the fact that there is so much variation creating a specific challenge, and maybe that that leads to more exclusions?

As you say, because it changes, it's difficult then to plan ahead, and from year to year and also, as you've said, within the term. Perhaps you have provision for more learners coming in or moving, and then that causes the pressure within the system, then, because you haven't planned for them, and therefore there's no spare funding there to draw on.


It shouldn't, but it could. It's difficult to know how headteachers and governing bodies will react. If they're under pressure financially or in terms of performance measures, they will react in a particular way. Culturally, we've got to get to the point, I think, particularly with the new curriculum coming in, where we say, 'Look, forget the narrow measures that you're being judged by. We're trying to agree with partners, including Estyn and the Welsh Government, a broader range of measures.' That, in a sense, may provide opportunities for schools, and local authorities, to look more constructively at this whole area. So, that's one area, but you're right, I think the ALN legislation will put pressures on, not just local authorities and schools, but also on the post-16 sector, because we're talking now about a wider age range—doing up to 25 as well. So, we've got a host of issues, I think, there to consider and work our way through.

And is the fact that there's variation from term to term, from week to week sometimes, in the level of provision that a school is going to have to provide for trying to retain those pupils in mainstream schools—is the fact that there is so much variation creating a specific challenge, and maybe that that leads to more exclusions?

As you say, because it changes, it's difficult then to plan ahead, and from year to year and also, as you've said, within the term. Perhaps you have provision for more learners coming in or moving, and then that causes the pressure within the system, then, because you haven't planned for them, and therefore there's no spare funding there to draw on.

Also, in fairness to PRUs, we've been trying to work on the fact that, if children move out of school, the funding follows them. We don't want a lag in the system, because they have to meet the challenge of the pupils, but the money is still in the schools, because it's once a year that they have that funding.


And is the fact that there's variation from term to term, from week to week sometimes, in the level of provision that a school is going to have to provide for trying to retain those pupils in mainstream schools—is the fact that there is so much variation creating a specific challenge, and maybe that that leads to more exclusions?

As you say, because it changes, it's difficult then to plan ahead, and from year to year and also, as you've said, within the term. Perhaps you have provision for more learners coming in or moving, and then that causes the pressure within the system, then, because you haven't planned for them, and therefore there's no spare funding there to draw on.

Also, in fairness to PRUs, we've been trying to work on the fact that, if children move out of school, the funding follows them. We don't want a lag in the system, because they have to meet the challenge of the pupils, but the money is still in the schools, because it's once a year that they have that funding.


As you say, because it changes, it's difficult then to plan ahead, and from year to year and also, as you've said, within the term. Perhaps you have provision for more learners coming in or moving, and then that causes the pressure within the system, then, because you haven't planned for them, and therefore there's no spare funding there to draw on.

Also, in fairness to PRUs, we've been trying to work on the fact that, if children move out of school, the funding follows them. We don't want a lag in the system, because they have to meet the challenge of the pupils, but the money is still in the schools, because it's once a year that they have that funding.

Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders.


Also, in fairness to PRUs, we've been trying to work on the fact that, if children move out of school, the funding follows them. We don't want a lag in the system, because they have to meet the challenge of the pupils, but the money is still in the schools, because it's once a year that they have that funding.

Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders.

Thank you, Chair. What more can be done, and by whom, to support collaborative working between schools, PRUs and local authorities to ensure that there is a continuum of provision and support for learners?


Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders.

Thank you, Chair. What more can be done, and by whom, to support collaborative working between schools, PRUs and local authorities to ensure that there is a continuum of provision and support for learners?

Well, one of the things I think that has improved a lot is the networking within the PRU sector. We meet on a regular basis, and that's nationally. And the EOTAS group meets regionally as well. So, there's definitely a better sharing of practice. We put on some very, very good conferences as one form of professional learning. But it's also important—. And we're talking about professional learning for any teacher or provider, or it's sometimes the more informal training they receive by making visits, joint visits, to provision and also using the expertise that we do have within the sector to work more closely with our schools, and vice versa, particularly around the curriculum. And I think this is the opportunity the new curriculum provides, providing our staff have the funding to do that and the opportunities we need to be creating around that as well. But in the past, there might well have been some staff who perhaps hadn't had those school experiences and vice versa.


Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders.

Thank you, Chair. What more can be done, and by whom, to support collaborative working between schools, PRUs and local authorities to ensure that there is a continuum of provision and support for learners?

Well, one of the things I think that has improved a lot is the networking within the PRU sector. We meet on a regular basis, and that's nationally. And the EOTAS group meets regionally as well. So, there's definitely a better sharing of practice. We put on some very, very good conferences as one form of professional learning. But it's also important—. And we're talking about professional learning for any teacher or provider, or it's sometimes the more informal training they receive by making visits, joint visits, to provision and also using the expertise that we do have within the sector to work more closely with our schools, and vice versa, particularly around the curriculum. And I think this is the opportunity the new curriculum provides, providing our staff have the funding to do that and the opportunities we need to be creating around that as well. But in the past, there might well have been some staff who perhaps hadn't had those school experiences and vice versa.

Can I just ask you about transition arrangements, because I know some of the issues that have arisen in my own constituency is when a pupil is in a PRU and then trying to get back into mainstream education? It isn't a clear, sort of, going from one to the other—sometimes a child can find themselves at home because they're not able to get back into the school setting, the main school setting. How are you addressing that?


Thank you, Chair. What more can be done, and by whom, to support collaborative working between schools, PRUs and local authorities to ensure that there is a continuum of provision and support for learners?

Well, one of the things I think that has improved a lot is the networking within the PRU sector. We meet on a regular basis, and that's nationally. And the EOTAS group meets regionally as well. So, there's definitely a better sharing of practice. We put on some very, very good conferences as one form of professional learning. But it's also important—. And we're talking about professional learning for any teacher or provider, or it's sometimes the more informal training they receive by making visits, joint visits, to provision and also using the expertise that we do have within the sector to work more closely with our schools, and vice versa, particularly around the curriculum. And I think this is the opportunity the new curriculum provides, providing our staff have the funding to do that and the opportunities we need to be creating around that as well. But in the past, there might well have been some staff who perhaps hadn't had those school experiences and vice versa.

Can I just ask you about transition arrangements, because I know some of the issues that have arisen in my own constituency is when a pupil is in a PRU and then trying to get back into mainstream education? It isn't a clear, sort of, going from one to the other—sometimes a child can find themselves at home because they're not able to get back into the school setting, the main school setting. How are you addressing that?

Well, again, I can only speak for ourselves. We've had a big investment of time, and there will be money and through band B, we're building a brand-new PRU provision in Swansea, which will be open in January 2021. So, we've recognised that, so that we have our staff working very closely with the schools. There's an integration through a part-time timetable back into school, and we continue to support them during that process. But then, when they're back in school, that support doesn't stop—that support continues, and then there's a managed reduction in that support. And that's proven very successful.