Stand-by button. No th that that incorporates the trend whilst at the same time not confusing people , if you're looking for functionality.

Well I dunno I I guess maybe fruit and vegetables may be popular at the moment , but as we know how fickle the fashion markets are ,

But what are they gonna be next  Yeah. What are they gonna be next year.


Well I dunno I I guess maybe fruit and vegetables may be popular at the moment , but as we know how fickle the fashion markets are ,

But what are they gonna be next  Yeah. What are they gonna be next year.


But what are they gonna be next  Yeah. What are they gonna be next year.


But but th but okay but you you can incorporate the tr If y if you change all the buttons then you've got the problem that this year's fruit and veg , next year's uh  I was gonna say animals or elephants or w whatever.


But but th but okay but you you can incorporate the tr If y if you change all the buttons then you've got the problem that this year's fruit and veg , next year's uh  I was gonna say animals or elephants or w whatever.

That means you're constantly changing your production schedule ,


That means you're constantly changing your production schedule ,

and you've gotta make different moulds and everything else ,


and you've gotta make different moulds and everything else ,

so that's not a good idea I would I would suggest.


and you've gotta make different moulds and everything else ,

so that's not a good idea I would I would suggest.

I'm not I'm not sure what what what the sort of timescale we're thinking of selling the product over is. I don't know.


so that's not a good idea I would I would suggest.

I'm not I'm not sure what what what the sort of timescale we're thinking of selling the product over is. I don't know.

I mean it just seems realistic that the remote control market isn't the kind of thing which takes in those kinds of fashion trends.


I'm not I'm not sure what what what the sort of timescale we're thinking of selling the product over is. I don't know.

I mean it just seems realistic that the remote control market isn't the kind of thing which takes in those kinds of fashion trends.

to something which is maybe more universal.


I mean it just seems realistic that the remote control market isn't the kind of thing which takes in those kinds of fashion trends.

to something which is maybe more universal.


to something which is maybe more universal.

But I suppose as long as it's quite a subtle design ,


But I suppose as long as it's quite a subtle design ,


We c maybe can imply a fruit shape possibly.


We c maybe can imply a fruit shape possibly.

Maybe the spongy feel is something we could think about , um.


Maybe the spongy feel is something we could think about , um.


Maybe the spongy feel is something we could think about , um.

Maybe still with a rubber design we could


Maybe the spongy feel is something we could think about , um.

Maybe still with a rubber design we could

Was that in the sort of fashion sense that this  Or was  the spongy feel was that uh sort of fashion ? It was , wasn't it ?


Maybe still with a rubber design we could

Was that in the sort of fashion sense that this  Or was  the spongy feel was that uh sort of fashion ? It was , wasn't it ?


Was that in the sort of fashion sense that this  Or was  the spongy feel was that uh sort of fashion ? It was , wasn't it ?

It seems like you're gonna have rubber cases , as well as buttons.


It seems like you're gonna have rubber cases , as well as buttons.


It seems like you're gonna have rubber cases , as well as buttons.

And that you can make them curved or double-curved and that would be the kind of sleek and sexy look.


And that you can make them curved or double-curved and that would be the kind of sleek and sexy look.

Oh yeah yeah one of the things were if you had rubber buttons then you had to have a rubber case.


Oh yeah yeah one of the things were if you had rubber buttons then you had to have a rubber case.


sorry it's if you use the uh rubber double curved case then you must use rubber buttons. That's the way round. If you have the rubber case then you have to have the rubber buttons to go with it. Which makes sense.


And that would fit in with what we want , wouldn't it , for the spongy feel , to have everything rubber.


And that would fit in with what we want , wouldn't it , for the spongy feel , to have everything rubber.

Uh so , yeah. The m the main problem is how f how frequently do the fashions change ? 'Cause in essence in the production you want things to stay  you want to basically mint them out


Uh so , yeah. The m the main problem is how f how frequently do the fashions change ? 'Cause in essence in the production you want things to stay  you want to basically mint them out

'cause if you've got fashion changes and that you're incorporating , then it means that your stock is um is last year's stock


'cause if you've got fashion changes and that you're incorporating , then it means that your stock is um is last year's stock

and therefore you're selling it or having to sell it at a discounted rate which you wouldn't want to do. Whereas if you kept the product the same but you could have a difference from year to year , uh it seems to me that you could incorporate a fashion statement if you like , rather than changing the whole kit and caboodle.


and therefore you're selling it or having to sell it at a discounted rate which you wouldn't want to do. Whereas if you kept the product the same but you could have a difference from year to year , uh it seems to me that you could incorporate a fashion statement if you like , rather than changing the whole kit and caboodle.

You're just changing one aspect like like the standby button or something like that ,


You're just changing one aspect like like the standby button or something like that ,


You're just changing one aspect like like the standby button or something like that ,

and especially 'cause then you could make it something that


and especially 'cause then you could make it something that

I suppose we maybe are limited in the fact that we still have to put the logo on the actual


and especially 'cause then you could make it something that

I suppose we maybe are limited in the fact that we still have to put the logo on the actual

Well , you might be limited in space , that  yes.


I suppose we maybe are limited in the fact that we still have to put the logo on the actual

Well , you might be limited in space , that  yes.


Well , you might be limited in space , that  yes.


Well , you might be limited in space , that  yes.

Well you two are obviously gonna find that out fairly quickly when you move over to your kit modelling stage as to uh how much pl how much how much how pliable is Plasticine.


Well you two are obviously gonna find that out fairly quickly when you move over to your kit modelling stage as to uh how much pl how much how much how pliable is Plasticine.


Well you two are obviously gonna find that out fairly quickly when you move over to your kit modelling stage as to uh how much pl how much how much how pliable is Plasticine.

Maybe we could think of the the cases like changing with the fashions


Maybe we could think of the the cases like changing with the fashions

like the Nokia phones where you could take the casing off the outside. But whether that would be too much to incorporate in production ,


Maybe we could think of the the cases like changing with the fashions

like the Nokia phones where you could take the casing off the outside. But whether that would be too much to incorporate in production ,

whether that would just increase the costs ,


like the Nokia phones where you could take the casing off the outside. But whether that would be too much to incorporate in production ,

whether that would just increase the costs ,


whether that would just increase the costs ,


whether that would just increase the costs ,

So you're talking there about uh changing changing the casing.


So you're talking there about uh changing changing the casing.


So you're talking there about uh changing changing the casing.

Yeah the a the actual the sort of the look from the outside , so where the buttons would stay the same , and the general function of the remote would stay the same ,


Yeah the a the actual the sort of the look from the outside , so where the buttons would stay the same , and the general function of the remote would stay the same ,

but you could change the the way it looked.


Yeah the a the actual the sort of the look from the outside , so where the buttons would stay the same , and the general function of the remote would stay the same ,

but you could change the the way it looked.

Yeah and then you could have  Oh but you still would have to have the logo on every new case ,


but you could change the the way it looked.

Yeah and then you could have  Oh but you still would have to have the logo on every new case ,


but you could change the the way it looked.

Yeah and then you could have  Oh but you still would have to have the logo on every new case ,

but you could have like pink cases for girls and red ones and things like that.


Yeah and then you could have  Oh but you still would have to have the logo on every new case ,

but you could have like pink cases for girls and red ones and things like that.

Yeah you you could do a colour change , so therefore you would yeah yeah  I mean that's effectively what they did with the with the mobile phones , was to have some in blue , some in red , some in  rather than all in black


but you could have like pink cases for girls and red ones and things like that.

Yeah you you could do a colour change , so therefore you would yeah yeah  I mean that's effectively what they did with the with the mobile phones , was to have some in blue , some in red , some in  rather than all in black


Yeah you you could do a colour change , so therefore you would yeah yeah  I mean that's effectively what they did with the with the mobile phones , was to have some in blue , some in red , some in  rather than all in black

or , you know , which four do you want , as long as it's black ?


or , you know , which four do you want , as long as it's black ?


But we are supposed to use the um company colour scheme , aren't we ?


It might  and we might be able to do both but it might clash with certain things.


It might  and we might be able to do both but it might clash with certain things.

Well not necessarily , because you could have your company uh  We're we're meant to be finishing up. You could have your company badge and logo. I mean a lot of um computers for instance like like on the one you've got there , it actually has a sort of um stick on badge


It might  and we might be able to do both but it might clash with certain things.

Well not necessarily , because you could have your company uh  We're we're meant to be finishing up. You could have your company badge and logo. I mean a lot of um computers for instance like like on the one you've got there , it actually has a sort of um stick on badge

so what you would al all you would really need , whether it , you know , whether the casing be w any colour , could be any colour , but that badge would then have to stick out on top of it so that uh in a sense , with a with a logo like that , because it's on a white background , the only colour that it might not stick out so well on would be a white casing.


Well not necessarily , because you could have your company uh  We're we're meant to be finishing up. You could have your company badge and logo. I mean a lot of um computers for instance like like on the one you've got there , it actually has a sort of um stick on badge

so what you would al all you would really need , whether it , you know , whether the casing be w any colour , could be any colour , but that badge would then have to stick out on top of it so that uh in a sense , with a with a logo like that , because it's on a white background , the only colour that it might not stick out so well on would be a white casing.


so what you would al all you would really need , whether it , you know , whether the casing be w any colour , could be any colour , but that badge would then have to stick out on top of it so that uh in a sense , with a with a logo like that , because it's on a white background , the only colour that it might not stick out so well on would be a white casing.

'Cause you you know you're sort of you're badging it.


'Cause you you know you're sort of you're badging it.

And in fact a lot of companies get somebody else to make them and literally just badge them themselves with their own uh badge over the top.


And in fact a lot of companies get somebody else to make them and literally just badge them themselves with their own uh badge over the top.

And in fact the way they've got that there even if you had that on a white , which is the predominant colour of the uh the Windows badge , you'd still be able to see it clearly from you know a white casing uh product.


And in fact the way they've got that there even if you had that on a white , which is the predominant colour of the uh the Windows badge , you'd still be able to see it clearly from you know a white casing uh product.


And in fact the way they've got that there even if you had that on a white , which is the predominant colour of the uh the Windows badge , you'd still be able to see it clearly from you know a white casing uh product.

And whether we'd have a big enough market to have this kind of like secondary market of selling the cases might be something to consider.


And whether we'd have a big enough market to have this kind of like secondary market of selling the cases might be something to consider.


And whether we'd have a big enough market to have this kind of like secondary market of selling the cases might be something to consider.

Well if it's for young people , um like the phone generation , that sort of thing'd probably go down well ,


Well if it's for young people , um like the phone generation , that sort of thing'd probably go down well ,


Well if it's for young people , um like the phone generation , that sort of thing'd probably go down well ,

and the market research has been on that side of things , hasn't it ?


and the market research has been on that side of things , hasn't it ?

Yeah , I mean it's people say that it's the look , they want the fancy looking thing but I'm  Yeah. I'm not convinced on whether having changeable covers would be something that people would buy into. I think with the mobiles , it's the , you know it's a communication device , people see you with it all about and


and the market research has been on that side of things , hasn't it ?

Yeah , I mean it's people say that it's the look , they want the fancy looking thing but I'm  Yeah. I'm not convinced on whether having changeable covers would be something that people would buy into. I think with the mobiles , it's the , you know it's a communication device , people see you with it all about and

where you you keep the remote hidden under the sofa most of the time.


Yeah , I mean it's people say that it's the look , they want the fancy looking thing but I'm  Yeah. I'm not convinced on whether having changeable covers would be something that people would buy into. I think with the mobiles , it's the , you know it's a communication device , people see you with it all about and

where you you keep the remote hidden under the sofa most of the time.


where you you keep the remote hidden under the sofa most of the time.

It's uh in in the house , isn't it , I suppose.


It's uh in in the house , isn't it , I suppose.

Okay , so if we just went for one colour of a rubber case


Okay , so if we just went for one colour of a rubber case


Change case colour. And we're sort of saying no to that.


Change case colour. And we're sort of saying no to that.

Did we decide on the rubber case ? The spongy feel , or did we think that that might go as a trend ?


Change case colour. And we're sort of saying no to that.

Did we decide on the rubber case ? The spongy feel , or did we think that that might go as a trend ?

Well , it was different last year. The trend was different last year apparently. It was not not spongy feel. But  I don't know whether the trend will change. I don't know whether it's one of those things that like sort of having all fruit shaped keys , that that probably would go out of fashion very quickly ,


Did we decide on the rubber case ? The spongy feel , or did we think that that might go as a trend ?

Well , it was different last year. The trend was different last year apparently. It was not not spongy feel. But  I don't know whether the trend will change. I don't know whether it's one of those things that like sort of having all fruit shaped keys , that that probably would go out of fashion very quickly ,

whereas just the fact that it was a rubber case is probably less less of something that y you're gonna end up hating in a year , you know.


Well , it was different last year. The trend was different last year apparently. It was not not spongy feel. But  I don't know whether the trend will change. I don't know whether it's one of those things that like sort of having all fruit shaped keys , that that probably would go out of fashion very quickly ,

whereas just the fact that it was a rubber case is probably less less of something that y you're gonna end up hating in a year , you know.


whereas just the fact that it was a rubber case is probably less less of something that y you're gonna end up hating in a year , you know.

Sounds reasonable.   If you're going for fashion trends like that they'll need t you'd have to have interchangeable cases


Sounds reasonable.   If you're going for fashion trends like that they'll need t you'd have to have interchangeable cases


or 'cause otherwise someone's gonna have to buy a complete new remote rather than just a case.


or 'cause otherwise someone's gonna have to buy a complete new remote rather than just a case.

it seems to make sense that we we'd just maybe stick with the standard rubber case ,


it seems to make sense that we we'd just maybe stick with the standard rubber case ,

and then have the standard rubber buttons as well.


and then have the standard rubber buttons as well.


Uh we haven't really talked about uh the curvature of the case. There's flat ,


Uh we haven't really talked about uh the curvature of the case. There's flat ,

there's single-curved and there's double-curved.


Uh we haven't really talked about uh the curvature of the case. There's flat ,

there's single-curved and there's double-curved.

I'm not exactly sure what these things look like.


there's single-curved and there's double-curved.

I'm not exactly sure what these things look like.

Maybe curves give it like the slightly more aesthetic feel ? But the double curve wouldn't require us to perform miracles with the Plasticine.


I'm not exactly sure what these things look like.

Maybe curves give it like the slightly more aesthetic feel ? But the double curve wouldn't require us to perform miracles with the Plasticine.


I'm not exactly sure what these things look like.

Maybe curves give it like the slightly more aesthetic feel ? But the double curve wouldn't require us to perform miracles with the Plasticine.

When you say d when you say double-curved , what what exactly does that mean ?


Maybe curves give it like the slightly more aesthetic feel ? But the double curve wouldn't require us to perform miracles with the Plasticine.

When you say d when you say double-curved , what what exactly does that mean ?

I'm not exactly sure.  Um I'll show you the remotes that I've got.


When you say d when you say double-curved , what what exactly does that mean ?

I'm not exactly sure.  Um I'll show you the remotes that I've got.


When you say d when you say double-curved , what what exactly does that mean ?

I'm not exactly sure.  Um I'll show you the remotes that I've got.

See how uh  Let's just get that bigger. See how uh the one  Oh I'm not plugged in , am I ?


I'm not exactly sure.  Um I'll show you the remotes that I've got.

See how uh  Let's just get that bigger. See how uh the one  Oh I'm not plugged in , am I ?


See how uh  Let's just get that bigger. See how uh the one  Oh I'm not plugged in , am I ?


one thing to consider is that in some ways you want um  by having a fairly standard case it means they can all fit together on top of each other


one thing to consider is that in some ways you want um  by having a fairly standard case it means they can all fit together on top of each other

therefore for storage purposes in shops and the like and it makes it easier that you can  if you can store them up on top of each other.


therefore for storage purposes in shops and the like and it makes it easier that you can  if you can store them up on top of each other.


therefore for storage purposes in shops and the like and it makes it easier that you can  if you can store them up on top of each other.

Whereas if you do um fancy things with it , you then gotta put it in a ca a a packaging box that that does that. And the cost of packaging could be quite important vis-a-vis the total cost of the product.


Whereas if you do um fancy things with it , you then gotta put it in a ca a a packaging box that that does that. And the cost of packaging could be quite important vis-a-vis the total cost of the product.


So shall we go through quickly and just work out what we've decide on , if we have to kind of


but you can see some of them have got kind of bulges , like the second one and the end one uh where there's a curve there.


but you can see some of them have got kind of bulges , like the second one and the end one uh where there's a curve there.

I'm not exactl I don't know if a double curve is maybe it comes up slightly , or ?


I'm not exactl I don't know if a double curve is maybe it comes up slightly , or ?


I'm not exactl I don't know if a double curve is maybe it comes up slightly , or ?

But um it is a kinda sleeker look if you've got curves in there.


I'm not exactl I don't know if a double curve is maybe it comes up slightly , or ?

But um it is a kinda sleeker look if you've got curves in there.

Oh right. S so do you wanna go for curves , more curves ?


But um it is a kinda sleeker look if you've got curves in there.

Oh right. S so do you wanna go for curves , more curves ?


But um it is a kinda sleeker look if you've got curves in there.

Oh right. S so do you wanna go for curves , more curves ?

We're meant to be f we're meant to be finishing this meeting in about a minute or so.


Oh right. S so do you wanna go for curves , more curves ?

We're meant to be f we're meant to be finishing this meeting in about a minute or so.


We're meant to be f we're meant to be finishing this meeting in about a minute or so.


Shall we go for single curve , just to compromise ?


curved or double curved ? So it's single curved.


curved or double curved ? So it's single curved.

So did we did we decide on the kinetic power supply ? The one you move around ?


curved or double curved ? So it's single curved.

So did we did we decide on the kinetic power supply ? The one you move around ?

Yeah I think that think that's a good idea.


So did we did we decide on the kinetic power supply ? The one you move around ?

Yeah I think that think that's a good idea.


Yeah I think that think that's a good idea.


Yeah I think that think that's a good idea.

And the rubber push buttons , rubber case.


And the rubber push buttons , rubber case.


And the rubber push buttons , rubber case.

Um and we don't really know much about the colour scheme or logo yet do we ,


Um and we don't really know much about the colour scheme or logo yet do we ,


Um and we don't really know much about the colour scheme or logo yet do we ,

Yeah yeah , we'll still have the  Are we gonna go for the simple circuit board just to keep the cost down ? I th I think we can by by not having anything too complicated .


Yeah yeah , we'll still have the  Are we gonna go for the simple circuit board just to keep the cost down ? I th I think we can by by not having anything too complicated .


Yeah yeah , we'll still have the  Are we gonna go for the simple circuit board just to keep the cost down ? I th I think we can by by not having anything too complicated .

Yeah. Yeah and and the voice recognition , we can use that can't we , just to find it. Without affecting the circuit board.


Yeah. Yeah and and the voice recognition , we can use that can't we , just to find it. Without affecting the circuit board.


And see we could always decide against it if something comes up that's just something to  that we seemed to leave out.


And see we could always decide against it if something comes up that's just something to  that we seemed to leave out.

Okay. And then are we going for sort of one button shaped like a fruit.  Or veg.


And see we could always decide against it if something comes up that's just something to  that we seemed to leave out.

Okay. And then are we going for sort of one button shaped like a fruit.  Or veg.

Yeah that sounds like it wouldn't do too much harm in a couple of years. Uh what sort of shape do we want ?


And see we could always decide against it if something comes up that's just something to  that we seemed to leave out.

Okay. And then are we going for sort of one button shaped like a fruit.  Or veg.

Yeah that sounds like it wouldn't do too much harm in a couple of years. Uh what sort of shape do we want ?

So we've got spongy feel buttons as well , have we ?


Okay. And then are we going for sort of one button shaped like a fruit.  Or veg.

Yeah that sounds like it wouldn't do too much harm in a couple of years. Uh what sort of shape do we want ?

So we've got spongy feel buttons as well , have we ?


Yeah that sounds like it wouldn't do too much harm in a couple of years. Uh what sort of shape do we want ?

So we've got spongy feel buttons as well , have we ?


So we've got spongy feel buttons as well , have we ?


so it's not really spongy feel buttons , it's just rubber buttons. With a rubber case right ?


And the standby button is gonna be different.


And the standby button is gonna be different.

Um I think an apple would be a good recognisable shape. If you start getting into kinda aubergines and things , it gets a bit weird.


And the standby button is gonna be different.

Um I think an apple would be a good recognisable shape. If you start getting into kinda aubergines and things , it gets a bit weird.

Okay so what what shape are we making the standby button ?


Um I think an apple would be a good recognisable shape. If you start getting into kinda aubergines and things , it gets a bit weird.

Okay so what what shape are we making the standby button ?


Okay so what what shape are we making the standby button ?


Apple apple a a qu Quite a big one , as well.


Could be a red apple , yeah. Either , don't mind.


Could be a red apple , yeah. Either , don't mind.

Yeah 'cause we wanna incorporate a bit of colour if we can , once we find out um


Could be a red apple , yeah. Either , don't mind.

Yeah 'cause we wanna incorporate a bit of colour if we can , once we find out um

Okay. And then we're gonna  are you gonna work on keeping the button design quite simple ? Just like the  Just working out what we're gonna do for the next time.


Yeah 'cause we wanna incorporate a bit of colour if we can , once we find out um

Okay. And then we're gonna  are you gonna work on keeping the button design quite simple ? Just like the  Just working out what we're gonna do for the next time.


Okay. And then we're gonna  are you gonna work on keeping the button design quite simple ? Just like the  Just working out what we're gonna do for the next time.

Yeah. Yeah that seems pretty straight forward.


Yeah. Yeah that seems pretty straight forward.


Yeah. Yeah that seems pretty straight forward.

'Cause most of them will just be kind of mainly circular or like very plain.


'Cause most of them will just be kind of mainly circular or like very plain.


'Cause most of them will just be kind of mainly circular or like very plain.

Sorry what was that last thing again there ?


Sorry what was that last thing again there ?

Uh just to keep the shape of the buttons simple.


Sorry what was that last thing again there ?

Uh just to keep the shape of the buttons simple.

Right  much option on that. I thought you were going for a single curve and


Uh just to keep the shape of the buttons simple.

Right  much option on that. I thought you were going for a single curve and


Right  much option on that. I thought you were going for a single curve and

And j yeah , just keeping the sort of the labelling them labelling of them fairly simple as well. Fairly sort of self explanatory.


And j yeah , just keeping the sort of the labelling them labelling of them fairly simple as well. Fairly sort of self explanatory.


And j yeah , just keeping the sort of the labelling them labelling of them fairly simple as well. Fairly sort of self explanatory.

Right , so shape of buttons simple. Okay. So that's that , I guess. We should now go away and get these things sorted out.  I guess you two are on plasticine duty or whatever.


Right , so shape of buttons simple. Okay. So that's that , I guess. We should now go away and get these things sorted out.  I guess you two are on plasticine duty or whatever.


Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received no apologies for absence this morning. Can I ask if there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Item 3 this morning then is a scrutiny session on early childhood education and care, and I'm very pleased to welcome Julie Morgan AM, Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services; Jo-anne Daniels, director of communities and tackling poverty at Welsh Government; and Nicola Edwards, deputy director of the childcare, play and early years division in Welsh Government. Thank you all for your attendance. We’re very much looking forward to the session. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions, and the first ones are from Hefin David.

Good morning, Deputy Minister. What are your primary objectives? Is it supporting the development of children or getting parents into work?

Well, I think you'll be aware from the range of programmes that we've got that we do feel it’s important to support both children and parents. There's obviously lots of evidence to show how important the early years are for children, how important they are for their development, and so, that is one of our primary objectives. But we also know how important it is for parents to have stable jobs, reasonably paid, so that can also help with the development of the children. So, we really see it that our plans are for both parents and children, and we believe that a high-quality, early-childhood education and care system can provide that. And, of course, in terms of when we talk about jobs as well, I think it’s really important to remember that the childcare system is a big employer as well and a very important employer. So that, actually, itself provides jobs.


Good morning, Deputy Minister. What are your primary objectives? Is it supporting the development of children or getting parents into work?

Well, I think you'll be aware from the range of programmes that we've got that we do feel it’s important to support both children and parents. There's obviously lots of evidence to show how important the early years are for children, how important they are for their development, and so, that is one of our primary objectives. But we also know how important it is for parents to have stable jobs, reasonably paid, so that can also help with the development of the children. So, we really see it that our plans are for both parents and children, and we believe that a high-quality, early-childhood education and care system can provide that. And, of course, in terms of when we talk about jobs as well, I think it’s really important to remember that the childcare system is a big employer as well and a very important employer. So that, actually, itself provides jobs.

So, the evidence we've seen suggests that, historically, Governments in the UK and devolved have focused on primarily getting parents into work. So, are you suggesting then that your focus is to change that and move towards early child development?


Good morning, Deputy Minister. What are your primary objectives? Is it supporting the development of children or getting parents into work?

Well, I think you'll be aware from the range of programmes that we've got that we do feel it’s important to support both children and parents. There's obviously lots of evidence to show how important the early years are for children, how important they are for their development, and so, that is one of our primary objectives. But we also know how important it is for parents to have stable jobs, reasonably paid, so that can also help with the development of the children. So, we really see it that our plans are for both parents and children, and we believe that a high-quality, early-childhood education and care system can provide that. And, of course, in terms of when we talk about jobs as well, I think it’s really important to remember that the childcare system is a big employer as well and a very important employer. So that, actually, itself provides jobs.

So, the evidence we've seen suggests that, historically, Governments in the UK and devolved have focused on primarily getting parents into work. So, are you suggesting then that your focus is to change that and move towards early child development?

No, what I'm saying is that we want to give parents the opportunity to work. We don't want childcare to be a barrier to parents working because we think that working is one the best routes out of poverty, but we do also want to make sure that children have the greatest experience that they can have in the early years. So, we see it as one.


Well, I think you'll be aware from the range of programmes that we've got that we do feel it’s important to support both children and parents. There's obviously lots of evidence to show how important the early years are for children, how important they are for their development, and so, that is one of our primary objectives. But we also know how important it is for parents to have stable jobs, reasonably paid, so that can also help with the development of the children. So, we really see it that our plans are for both parents and children, and we believe that a high-quality, early-childhood education and care system can provide that. And, of course, in terms of when we talk about jobs as well, I think it’s really important to remember that the childcare system is a big employer as well and a very important employer. So that, actually, itself provides jobs.

So, the evidence we've seen suggests that, historically, Governments in the UK and devolved have focused on primarily getting parents into work. So, are you suggesting then that your focus is to change that and move towards early child development?

No, what I'm saying is that we want to give parents the opportunity to work. We don't want childcare to be a barrier to parents working because we think that working is one the best routes out of poverty, but we do also want to make sure that children have the greatest experience that they can have in the early years. So, we see it as one.

Okay. And that's quite a policy challenge to deliver both at the same time.


So, the evidence we've seen suggests that, historically, Governments in the UK and devolved have focused on primarily getting parents into work. So, are you suggesting then that your focus is to change that and move towards early child development?

No, what I'm saying is that we want to give parents the opportunity to work. We don't want childcare to be a barrier to parents working because we think that working is one the best routes out of poverty, but we do also want to make sure that children have the greatest experience that they can have in the early years. So, we see it as one.

Okay. And that's quite a policy challenge to deliver both at the same time.

The situation as it is is complex, and I think it needs simplifying. It is a challenge, but it’s probably one of the most important challenges we've got in Government, because what we offer to families with young children is one of the most important things we do.


No, what I'm saying is that we want to give parents the opportunity to work. We don't want childcare to be a barrier to parents working because we think that working is one the best routes out of poverty, but we do also want to make sure that children have the greatest experience that they can have in the early years. So, we see it as one.

Okay. And that's quite a policy challenge to deliver both at the same time.

The situation as it is is complex, and I think it needs simplifying. It is a challenge, but it’s probably one of the most important challenges we've got in Government, because what we offer to families with young children is one of the most important things we do.

And in your evidence to the committee, you said that the Welsh Government’s approach 'will build on a wide variety of programmes that are continually developing in order to support parents, families and children during the early years.' And you've just said you want to simplify that. How do you simplify that, particularly with regard to the provision of funding and the way these things connect from the birth of a child into school? How will simplification look, and what will happen?


Okay. And that's quite a policy challenge to deliver both at the same time.

The situation as it is is complex, and I think it needs simplifying. It is a challenge, but it’s probably one of the most important challenges we've got in Government, because what we offer to families with young children is one of the most important things we do.

And in your evidence to the committee, you said that the Welsh Government’s approach 'will build on a wide variety of programmes that are continually developing in order to support parents, families and children during the early years.' And you've just said you want to simplify that. How do you simplify that, particularly with regard to the provision of funding and the way these things connect from the birth of a child into school? How will simplification look, and what will happen?

Well, we're not at the stage of being able to say what it will look like at the moment, but we're looking at ways of simplifying, because I think it’s absolutely right, it is a very complex system, because it’s grown up from all different routes. But we are having lots of pilot projects that are looking at ways of simplifying the system. We have got pathway projects in, I think it’s eight local authorities, who are looking at ways of joining up the whole system. So, we are looking at that, and I absolutely except that it is very complex and we want to find ways of making it simpler and easier to understand. So, we are working with local authorities and health boards to see how we can actually work together and simplify things.


The situation as it is is complex, and I think it needs simplifying. It is a challenge, but it’s probably one of the most important challenges we've got in Government, because what we offer to families with young children is one of the most important things we do.

And in your evidence to the committee, you said that the Welsh Government’s approach 'will build on a wide variety of programmes that are continually developing in order to support parents, families and children during the early years.' And you've just said you want to simplify that. How do you simplify that, particularly with regard to the provision of funding and the way these things connect from the birth of a child into school? How will simplification look, and what will happen?

Well, we're not at the stage of being able to say what it will look like at the moment, but we're looking at ways of simplifying, because I think it’s absolutely right, it is a very complex system, because it’s grown up from all different routes. But we are having lots of pilot projects that are looking at ways of simplifying the system. We have got pathway projects in, I think it’s eight local authorities, who are looking at ways of joining up the whole system. So, we are looking at that, and I absolutely except that it is very complex and we want to find ways of making it simpler and easier to understand. So, we are working with local authorities and health boards to see how we can actually work together and simplify things.

And it's good to hear that that's your objective. Can I just come back to the first thing you said: 'We can't say yet what we're going to do'?


And in your evidence to the committee, you said that the Welsh Government’s approach 'will build on a wide variety of programmes that are continually developing in order to support parents, families and children during the early years.' And you've just said you want to simplify that. How do you simplify that, particularly with regard to the provision of funding and the way these things connect from the birth of a child into school? How will simplification look, and what will happen?

Well, we're not at the stage of being able to say what it will look like at the moment, but we're looking at ways of simplifying, because I think it’s absolutely right, it is a very complex system, because it’s grown up from all different routes. But we are having lots of pilot projects that are looking at ways of simplifying the system. We have got pathway projects in, I think it’s eight local authorities, who are looking at ways of joining up the whole system. So, we are looking at that, and I absolutely except that it is very complex and we want to find ways of making it simpler and easier to understand. So, we are working with local authorities and health boards to see how we can actually work together and simplify things.

And it's good to hear that that's your objective. Can I just come back to the first thing you said: 'We can't say yet what we're going to do'?


Well, we're not at the stage of being able to say what it will look like at the moment, but we're looking at ways of simplifying, because I think it’s absolutely right, it is a very complex system, because it’s grown up from all different routes. But we are having lots of pilot projects that are looking at ways of simplifying the system. We have got pathway projects in, I think it’s eight local authorities, who are looking at ways of joining up the whole system. So, we are looking at that, and I absolutely except that it is very complex and we want to find ways of making it simpler and easier to understand. So, we are working with local authorities and health boards to see how we can actually work together and simplify things.

And it's good to hear that that's your objective. Can I just come back to the first thing you said: 'We can't say yet what we're going to do'?

So, when will we have a policy plan and something that we can interrogate in more detail?


And it's good to hear that that's your objective. Can I just come back to the first thing you said: 'We can't say yet what we're going to do'?

So, when will we have a policy plan and something that we can interrogate in more detail?

Well, I think we are near getting to an announcement where we will be able to say what direction we're going in, and because we have had—. Some of this work has been going on for a year or so, and we're getting the results of those pathfinder projects coming in. So, when we do have all those results, we will be able to say the direction that we want to go in, and I hope we'll be able to do that very soon.


So, when will we have a policy plan and something that we can interrogate in more detail?

Well, I think we are near getting to an announcement where we will be able to say what direction we're going in, and because we have had—. Some of this work has been going on for a year or so, and we're getting the results of those pathfinder projects coming in. So, when we do have all those results, we will be able to say the direction that we want to go in, and I hope we'll be able to do that very soon.


Well, I think we are near getting to an announcement where we will be able to say what direction we're going in, and because we have had—. Some of this work has been going on for a year or so, and we're getting the results of those pathfinder projects coming in. So, when we do have all those results, we will be able to say the direction that we want to go in, and I hope we'll be able to do that very soon.


I'm sorry I can't say too much about that because we haven't actually—. We need to—.


I'm sorry I can't say too much about that because we haven't actually—. We need to—.

Well, it does sound like something is imminent.


I'm sorry I can't say too much about that because we haven't actually—. We need to—.

Well, it does sound like something is imminent.

Okay. And that's as far as you're willing to go. And if that's as far as you're willing to go, then I'll stop asking.


Well, it does sound like something is imminent.

Okay. And that's as far as you're willing to go. And if that's as far as you're willing to go, then I'll stop asking.


Okay. And that's as far as you're willing to go. And if that's as far as you're willing to go, then I'll stop asking.


I just want to understand a little about the pilot, the pathfinders in eight local authority areas. Is the focus there on the child or is it on parents returning to work?


I just want to understand a little about the pilot, the pathfinders in eight local authority areas. Is the focus there on the child or is it on parents returning to work?

The focus is on an early years system, but we've worked both locally and nationally. So, it's looking at both. I mean, actually, I think, perhaps, Nicola, would you like to or one of you like to describe one of the programmes?


I just want to understand a little about the pilot, the pathfinders in eight local authority areas. Is the focus there on the child or is it on parents returning to work?

The focus is on an early years system, but we've worked both locally and nationally. So, it's looking at both. I mean, actually, I think, perhaps, Nicola, would you like to or one of you like to describe one of the programmes?

And can you just explain the vision? Is it a child-centred early years provision that we're thinking of in these pathfinder—?


I just want to understand a little about the pilot, the pathfinders in eight local authority areas. Is the focus there on the child or is it on parents returning to work?

The focus is on an early years system, but we've worked both locally and nationally. So, it's looking at both. I mean, actually, I think, perhaps, Nicola, would you like to or one of you like to describe one of the programmes?

And can you just explain the vision? Is it a child-centred early years provision that we're thinking of in these pathfinder—?

So, in 'Prosperity for All', we set out that early years was one of the key priority areas, and within that we said that we wanted to create a more joined-up and more responsive system. So, when we talk about a system, we're talking about the services that are provided by health boards, so health visiting, midwifery, speech and language support, other kinds of therapeutic services, as well as all the important services that local authorities are providing, such as support for parenting, advice and guidance, employment support and childcare, obviously. And we've got eight pathfinders. I'll try and remember each of them. So, Flintshire, Newport, Blaenau Gwent, Neath Port Talbot, Swansea, Ceredigion, Pembrokeshire—and then I've missed one, I think, because I've only got to seven—who have been working with us to look at how all of those services are currently delivered in their local area and whether and how they can reorganise those services to improve accessibility, to improve take-up, but essentially to improve the efficacy of those programmes in terms of supporting children, but often, obviously, in supporting children you have to support parents too and support the home.


The focus is on an early years system, but we've worked both locally and nationally. So, it's looking at both. I mean, actually, I think, perhaps, Nicola, would you like to or one of you like to describe one of the programmes?

And can you just explain the vision? Is it a child-centred early years provision that we're thinking of in these pathfinder—?

So, in 'Prosperity for All', we set out that early years was one of the key priority areas, and within that we said that we wanted to create a more joined-up and more responsive system. So, when we talk about a system, we're talking about the services that are provided by health boards, so health visiting, midwifery, speech and language support, other kinds of therapeutic services, as well as all the important services that local authorities are providing, such as support for parenting, advice and guidance, employment support and childcare, obviously. And we've got eight pathfinders. I'll try and remember each of them. So, Flintshire, Newport, Blaenau Gwent, Neath Port Talbot, Swansea, Ceredigion, Pembrokeshire—and then I've missed one, I think, because I've only got to seven—who have been working with us to look at how all of those services are currently delivered in their local area and whether and how they can reorganise those services to improve accessibility, to improve take-up, but essentially to improve the efficacy of those programmes in terms of supporting children, but often, obviously, in supporting children you have to support parents too and support the home.

So, would you say it's a child-centred approach?


And can you just explain the vision? Is it a child-centred early years provision that we're thinking of in these pathfinder—?

So, in 'Prosperity for All', we set out that early years was one of the key priority areas, and within that we said that we wanted to create a more joined-up and more responsive system. So, when we talk about a system, we're talking about the services that are provided by health boards, so health visiting, midwifery, speech and language support, other kinds of therapeutic services, as well as all the important services that local authorities are providing, such as support for parenting, advice and guidance, employment support and childcare, obviously. And we've got eight pathfinders. I'll try and remember each of them. So, Flintshire, Newport, Blaenau Gwent, Neath Port Talbot, Swansea, Ceredigion, Pembrokeshire—and then I've missed one, I think, because I've only got to seven—who have been working with us to look at how all of those services are currently delivered in their local area and whether and how they can reorganise those services to improve accessibility, to improve take-up, but essentially to improve the efficacy of those programmes in terms of supporting children, but often, obviously, in supporting children you have to support parents too and support the home.

So, would you say it's a child-centred approach?

Absolutely, because it's about making sure that we deliver the best start in life for children in Wales, but obviously parents are a critical element of that, so can't be excluded.


So, in 'Prosperity for All', we set out that early years was one of the key priority areas, and within that we said that we wanted to create a more joined-up and more responsive system. So, when we talk about a system, we're talking about the services that are provided by health boards, so health visiting, midwifery, speech and language support, other kinds of therapeutic services, as well as all the important services that local authorities are providing, such as support for parenting, advice and guidance, employment support and childcare, obviously. And we've got eight pathfinders. I'll try and remember each of them. So, Flintshire, Newport, Blaenau Gwent, Neath Port Talbot, Swansea, Ceredigion, Pembrokeshire—and then I've missed one, I think, because I've only got to seven—who have been working with us to look at how all of those services are currently delivered in their local area and whether and how they can reorganise those services to improve accessibility, to improve take-up, but essentially to improve the efficacy of those programmes in terms of supporting children, but often, obviously, in supporting children you have to support parents too and support the home.

So, would you say it's a child-centred approach?

Absolutely, because it's about making sure that we deliver the best start in life for children in Wales, but obviously parents are a critical element of that, so can't be excluded.


So, would you say it's a child-centred approach?

Absolutely, because it's about making sure that we deliver the best start in life for children in Wales, but obviously parents are a critical element of that, so can't be excluded.

So, those eight pathfinders started their work in—I think it was—February this year. And they're still in the very early stages in terms of actually unpicking and mapping the current provision of services across their areas and then moving on to the stage where they'll develop proposals for how they might change the delivery of early years.


Absolutely, because it's about making sure that we deliver the best start in life for children in Wales, but obviously parents are a critical element of that, so can't be excluded.

So, those eight pathfinders started their work in—I think it was—February this year. And they're still in the very early stages in terms of actually unpicking and mapping the current provision of services across their areas and then moving on to the stage where they'll develop proposals for how they might change the delivery of early years.


So, those eight pathfinders started their work in—I think it was—February this year. And they're still in the very early stages in terms of actually unpicking and mapping the current provision of services across their areas and then moving on to the stage where they'll develop proposals for how they might change the delivery of early years.

Just to say also, the one in Flintshire is also testing the impact of consistent funding rates for education and childcare. So, that's been going longer than the others. So, that's another important area because there's an evaluation of that project under way at the moment.


Just to say also, the one in Flintshire is also testing the impact of consistent funding rates for education and childcare. So, that's been going longer than the others. So, that's another important area because there's an evaluation of that project under way at the moment.

Sorry, but Caerphilly was the one that I forgot to mention.


Sorry, but Caerphilly was the one that I forgot to mention.

That's absolutely unforgivable. [Laughter.]


That's absolutely unforgivable. [Laughter.]


That's absolutely unforgivable. [Laughter.]

In your report, the 'Alignment of the Childcare Offer for Wales to the Foundation Phase', one of the recommendations was that 'The Welsh Government, local authority education and childcare policy and delivery teams could merge'. So, looking behind the scenes, those disparate parts of policy, delivering the foundation phase and childcare offer should merge. Is that the case? Has that been put under way and should we be looking at this structure in more depth?


In your report, the 'Alignment of the Childcare Offer for Wales to the Foundation Phase', one of the recommendations was that 'The Welsh Government, local authority education and childcare policy and delivery teams could merge'. So, looking behind the scenes, those disparate parts of policy, delivering the foundation phase and childcare offer should merge. Is that the case? Has that been put under way and should we be looking at this structure in more depth?

Well, probably not at the structure at this time because the report that you're referring to was looking at the first year of the delivery of the childcare offer and it did make a number of points, which we have taken on board. For example, we issued guidance last year regarding the delivery of the foundation phase, which supports widening the number of non-maintained settings that are able to deliver early education and we're also supporting co-location and partnership working between education and childcare providers through our capital investment programme. I think it's about £81 million that we put into the capital investment where we are developing childcare facilities co-located with the education facilities, because that was one of the things that came out from this report you're referring to. And, I mean, obviously, early years is one of the key priorities within 'Prosperity for All' and, obviously, education sits within one portfolio with the Minister for Education, and childcare is with me. But we're doing what we can to work together to try to bring those together, and that was one of the proposals in that report. But it's still very early to think about, at this stage, a structural change.


In your report, the 'Alignment of the Childcare Offer for Wales to the Foundation Phase', one of the recommendations was that 'The Welsh Government, local authority education and childcare policy and delivery teams could merge'. So, looking behind the scenes, those disparate parts of policy, delivering the foundation phase and childcare offer should merge. Is that the case? Has that been put under way and should we be looking at this structure in more depth?

Well, probably not at the structure at this time because the report that you're referring to was looking at the first year of the delivery of the childcare offer and it did make a number of points, which we have taken on board. For example, we issued guidance last year regarding the delivery of the foundation phase, which supports widening the number of non-maintained settings that are able to deliver early education and we're also supporting co-location and partnership working between education and childcare providers through our capital investment programme. I think it's about £81 million that we put into the capital investment where we are developing childcare facilities co-located with the education facilities, because that was one of the things that came out from this report you're referring to. And, I mean, obviously, early years is one of the key priorities within 'Prosperity for All' and, obviously, education sits within one portfolio with the Minister for Education, and childcare is with me. But we're doing what we can to work together to try to bring those together, and that was one of the proposals in that report. But it's still very early to think about, at this stage, a structural change.

And I remember when you were on the committee here with me, sitting next to me, we had those discussions about co-location. I know the problem with not having co-location is that you could end up seeing a child travelling between three or more locations during the course of a day. Are you suggesting now that the actions you're taking will resolve that issue universally, or will it lead to a piecemeal resolution? And, if so, to what extent, what percentage of children will see that resolved as an issue?


In your report, the 'Alignment of the Childcare Offer for Wales to the Foundation Phase', one of the recommendations was that 'The Welsh Government, local authority education and childcare policy and delivery teams could merge'. So, looking behind the scenes, those disparate parts of policy, delivering the foundation phase and childcare offer should merge. Is that the case? Has that been put under way and should we be looking at this structure in more depth?

Well, probably not at the structure at this time because the report that you're referring to was looking at the first year of the delivery of the childcare offer and it did make a number of points, which we have taken on board. For example, we issued guidance last year regarding the delivery of the foundation phase, which supports widening the number of non-maintained settings that are able to deliver early education and we're also supporting co-location and partnership working between education and childcare providers through our capital investment programme. I think it's about £81 million that we put into the capital investment where we are developing childcare facilities co-located with the education facilities, because that was one of the things that came out from this report you're referring to. And, I mean, obviously, early years is one of the key priorities within 'Prosperity for All' and, obviously, education sits within one portfolio with the Minister for Education, and childcare is with me. But we're doing what we can to work together to try to bring those together, and that was one of the proposals in that report. But it's still very early to think about, at this stage, a structural change.

And I remember when you were on the committee here with me, sitting next to me, we had those discussions about co-location. I know the problem with not having co-location is that you could end up seeing a child travelling between three or more locations during the course of a day. Are you suggesting now that the actions you're taking will resolve that issue universally, or will it lead to a piecemeal resolution? And, if so, to what extent, what percentage of children will see that resolved as an issue?

Certainly, the co-location is not going to solve it universally because although we've been able to develop a lot of new facilities, or build on old facilities, there will be a lot of areas that we won't have covered. So, I can't say that there's going to be a situation where everything is going to be co-located because I don't think that would be feasible, and,for some of the providers, they wouldn't be in a position to move to a school. But ideally it's a good situation, but, certainly, I think the discussions that there were on the committee, it's not ideal to take children for long distances between different providers, let alone the effect it has on the climate change issue. It's whether it's good for children as well. So, I can't say that they will ever be co-located, but as I said in response to your earlier question, we are encouraging the development of the foundation phase in non-maintained settings, which, obviously, is quite significant.


Well, probably not at the structure at this time because the report that you're referring to was looking at the first year of the delivery of the childcare offer and it did make a number of points, which we have taken on board. For example, we issued guidance last year regarding the delivery of the foundation phase, which supports widening the number of non-maintained settings that are able to deliver early education and we're also supporting co-location and partnership working between education and childcare providers through our capital investment programme. I think it's about £81 million that we put into the capital investment where we are developing childcare facilities co-located with the education facilities, because that was one of the things that came out from this report you're referring to. And, I mean, obviously, early years is one of the key priorities within 'Prosperity for All' and, obviously, education sits within one portfolio with the Minister for Education, and childcare is with me. But we're doing what we can to work together to try to bring those together, and that was one of the proposals in that report. But it's still very early to think about, at this stage, a structural change.

And I remember when you were on the committee here with me, sitting next to me, we had those discussions about co-location. I know the problem with not having co-location is that you could end up seeing a child travelling between three or more locations during the course of a day. Are you suggesting now that the actions you're taking will resolve that issue universally, or will it lead to a piecemeal resolution? And, if so, to what extent, what percentage of children will see that resolved as an issue?

Certainly, the co-location is not going to solve it universally because although we've been able to develop a lot of new facilities, or build on old facilities, there will be a lot of areas that we won't have covered. So, I can't say that there's going to be a situation where everything is going to be co-located because I don't think that would be feasible, and,for some of the providers, they wouldn't be in a position to move to a school. But ideally it's a good situation, but, certainly, I think the discussions that there were on the committee, it's not ideal to take children for long distances between different providers, let alone the effect it has on the climate change issue. It's whether it's good for children as well. So, I can't say that they will ever be co-located, but as I said in response to your earlier question, we are encouraging the development of the foundation phase in non-maintained settings, which, obviously, is quite significant.

Okay. Thank you. I've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders.


And I remember when you were on the committee here with me, sitting next to me, we had those discussions about co-location. I know the problem with not having co-location is that you could end up seeing a child travelling between three or more locations during the course of a day. Are you suggesting now that the actions you're taking will resolve that issue universally, or will it lead to a piecemeal resolution? And, if so, to what extent, what percentage of children will see that resolved as an issue?

Certainly, the co-location is not going to solve it universally because although we've been able to develop a lot of new facilities, or build on old facilities, there will be a lot of areas that we won't have covered. So, I can't say that there's going to be a situation where everything is going to be co-located because I don't think that would be feasible, and,for some of the providers, they wouldn't be in a position to move to a school. But ideally it's a good situation, but, certainly, I think the discussions that there were on the committee, it's not ideal to take children for long distances between different providers, let alone the effect it has on the climate change issue. It's whether it's good for children as well. So, I can't say that they will ever be co-located, but as I said in response to your earlier question, we are encouraging the development of the foundation phase in non-maintained settings, which, obviously, is quite significant.

Okay. Thank you. I've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders.

Thank you, Chair. What is the Welsh Government doing to address the big differences in the amount of early childhood education and care provision available in different parts of Wales?


Certainly, the co-location is not going to solve it universally because although we've been able to develop a lot of new facilities, or build on old facilities, there will be a lot of areas that we won't have covered. So, I can't say that there's going to be a situation where everything is going to be co-located because I don't think that would be feasible, and,for some of the providers, they wouldn't be in a position to move to a school. But ideally it's a good situation, but, certainly, I think the discussions that there were on the committee, it's not ideal to take children for long distances between different providers, let alone the effect it has on the climate change issue. It's whether it's good for children as well. So, I can't say that they will ever be co-located, but as I said in response to your earlier question, we are encouraging the development of the foundation phase in non-maintained settings, which, obviously, is quite significant.

Okay. Thank you. I've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders.

Thank you, Chair. What is the Welsh Government doing to address the big differences in the amount of early childhood education and care provision available in different parts of Wales?

Right. Well, thank you very much for that question. I mean, obviously, it would be good to see a greater degree of consistency, but I think it's important to acknowledge that there are reasons for that variation. Now, early education, of course, is the responsibility of the Minister for Education, and we are aware that different local authorities have adopted different patterns of providing early education. For example, local authorities are funded to provide 10 hours minimum of the foundation phase for three and four-year-olds across Wales, but there's quite a variance in how much is actually provided, with some local authorities providing a lot more historically. So, it does mean that there is a different pattern across Wales, according to what local authorities do. But what I could say is, of course, the quality is very good, as the Estyn reports have shown; that the quality provided, the delivery of the foundation phase, is very good. But it does vary in terms of what is offered throughout Wales, and that is the decision of the local authorities, and it is a historical thing. I refer to this pilot in Flint, which is trying to test paying the same rate for foundation phase and childcare. We're going to have an independent evaluation on that soon, in November this year, so that will help us. Obviously, I think local authorities' role in all this is absolutely crucial because they are the local, nearest people to decide how things develop in their own areas. And then, of course, we've got Flying Start, which is geographically targeted, which uses the data from income benefit to decide which are the areas where that is being delivered. And that is delivered where the highest proportion of children aged nought to three are living in income-dependent households. So, again, that determines the pattern throughout Wales. With Flying Start being geographically targeted, with the education being determined by the local authorities about how much there is, we know that there is a variance throughout Wales. We'd like to see facilities developed in each local authority throughout Wales that would answer the needs of the families and the children in those areas.


Okay. Thank you. I've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders.

Thank you, Chair. What is the Welsh Government doing to address the big differences in the amount of early childhood education and care provision available in different parts of Wales?

Right. Well, thank you very much for that question. I mean, obviously, it would be good to see a greater degree of consistency, but I think it's important to acknowledge that there are reasons for that variation. Now, early education, of course, is the responsibility of the Minister for Education, and we are aware that different local authorities have adopted different patterns of providing early education. For example, local authorities are funded to provide 10 hours minimum of the foundation phase for three and four-year-olds across Wales, but there's quite a variance in how much is actually provided, with some local authorities providing a lot more historically. So, it does mean that there is a different pattern across Wales, according to what local authorities do. But what I could say is, of course, the quality is very good, as the Estyn reports have shown; that the quality provided, the delivery of the foundation phase, is very good. But it does vary in terms of what is offered throughout Wales, and that is the decision of the local authorities, and it is a historical thing. I refer to this pilot in Flint, which is trying to test paying the same rate for foundation phase and childcare. We're going to have an independent evaluation on that soon, in November this year, so that will help us. Obviously, I think local authorities' role in all this is absolutely crucial because they are the local, nearest people to decide how things develop in their own areas. And then, of course, we've got Flying Start, which is geographically targeted, which uses the data from income benefit to decide which are the areas where that is being delivered. And that is delivered where the highest proportion of children aged nought to three are living in income-dependent households. So, again, that determines the pattern throughout Wales. With Flying Start being geographically targeted, with the education being determined by the local authorities about how much there is, we know that there is a variance throughout Wales. We'd like to see facilities developed in each local authority throughout Wales that would answer the needs of the families and the children in those areas.

Before you move on, Janet, Siân's got a supplementary.


Thank you, Chair. What is the Welsh Government doing to address the big differences in the amount of early childhood education and care provision available in different parts of Wales?

Right. Well, thank you very much for that question. I mean, obviously, it would be good to see a greater degree of consistency, but I think it's important to acknowledge that there are reasons for that variation. Now, early education, of course, is the responsibility of the Minister for Education, and we are aware that different local authorities have adopted different patterns of providing early education. For example, local authorities are funded to provide 10 hours minimum of the foundation phase for three and four-year-olds across Wales, but there's quite a variance in how much is actually provided, with some local authorities providing a lot more historically. So, it does mean that there is a different pattern across Wales, according to what local authorities do. But what I could say is, of course, the quality is very good, as the Estyn reports have shown; that the quality provided, the delivery of the foundation phase, is very good. But it does vary in terms of what is offered throughout Wales, and that is the decision of the local authorities, and it is a historical thing. I refer to this pilot in Flint, which is trying to test paying the same rate for foundation phase and childcare. We're going to have an independent evaluation on that soon, in November this year, so that will help us. Obviously, I think local authorities' role in all this is absolutely crucial because they are the local, nearest people to decide how things develop in their own areas. And then, of course, we've got Flying Start, which is geographically targeted, which uses the data from income benefit to decide which are the areas where that is being delivered. And that is delivered where the highest proportion of children aged nought to three are living in income-dependent households. So, again, that determines the pattern throughout Wales. With Flying Start being geographically targeted, with the education being determined by the local authorities about how much there is, we know that there is a variance throughout Wales. We'd like to see facilities developed in each local authority throughout Wales that would answer the needs of the families and the children in those areas.

Before you move on, Janet, Siân's got a supplementary.

Just in terms of the foundation phase, there have been cuts, of course, in expenditure in that phase. How concerned are you about that and the impact that that will have on the way in which the foundation phase is taught in our schools? The foundation phase is now part of the education improvement grant, which has seen a reduction of 10 per cent, and it has to compete against other expenditure streams within that greater pot of funding. So, are you concerned that money is being lost and that that will have an impact on standards in the foundation phase?


Right. Well, thank you very much for that question. I mean, obviously, it would be good to see a greater degree of consistency, but I think it's important to acknowledge that there are reasons for that variation. Now, early education, of course, is the responsibility of the Minister for Education, and we are aware that different local authorities have adopted different patterns of providing early education. For example, local authorities are funded to provide 10 hours minimum of the foundation phase for three and four-year-olds across Wales, but there's quite a variance in how much is actually provided, with some local authorities providing a lot more historically. So, it does mean that there is a different pattern across Wales, according to what local authorities do. But what I could say is, of course, the quality is very good, as the Estyn reports have shown; that the quality provided, the delivery of the foundation phase, is very good. But it does vary in terms of what is offered throughout Wales, and that is the decision of the local authorities, and it is a historical thing. I refer to this pilot in Flint, which is trying to test paying the same rate for foundation phase and childcare. We're going to have an independent evaluation on that soon, in November this year, so that will help us. Obviously, I think local authorities' role in all this is absolutely crucial because they are the local, nearest people to decide how things develop in their own areas. And then, of course, we've got Flying Start, which is geographically targeted, which uses the data from income benefit to decide which are the areas where that is being delivered. And that is delivered where the highest proportion of children aged nought to three are living in income-dependent households. So, again, that determines the pattern throughout Wales. With Flying Start being geographically targeted, with the education being determined by the local authorities about how much there is, we know that there is a variance throughout Wales. We'd like to see facilities developed in each local authority throughout Wales that would answer the needs of the families and the children in those areas.

Before you move on, Janet, Siân's got a supplementary.

Just in terms of the foundation phase, there have been cuts, of course, in expenditure in that phase. How concerned are you about that and the impact that that will have on the way in which the foundation phase is taught in our schools? The foundation phase is now part of the education improvement grant, which has seen a reduction of 10 per cent, and it has to compete against other expenditure streams within that greater pot of funding. So, are you concerned that money is being lost and that that will have an impact on standards in the foundation phase?

I haven't seen any evidence. Obviously, I must reiterate the foundation phase does come under the Minister for Education, but I haven't seen any evidence of any standards being lowered, and the reports from Estyn are very good. In fact, I think the foundation phase is one of our great joys, that we absolutely celebrate it, and so I'd be very concerned if I thought there was any drop in standards in the foundation phase, and I certainly haven't had any evidence of that. I would want to guard against that.


Before you move on, Janet, Siân's got a supplementary.

Just in terms of the foundation phase, there have been cuts, of course, in expenditure in that phase. How concerned are you about that and the impact that that will have on the way in which the foundation phase is taught in our schools? The foundation phase is now part of the education improvement grant, which has seen a reduction of 10 per cent, and it has to compete against other expenditure streams within that greater pot of funding. So, are you concerned that money is being lost and that that will have an impact on standards in the foundation phase?

I haven't seen any evidence. Obviously, I must reiterate the foundation phase does come under the Minister for Education, but I haven't seen any evidence of any standards being lowered, and the reports from Estyn are very good. In fact, I think the foundation phase is one of our great joys, that we absolutely celebrate it, and so I'd be very concerned if I thought there was any drop in standards in the foundation phase, and I certainly haven't had any evidence of that. I would want to guard against that.

Exactly, but if there are fewer teaching assistants in the system because of the cuts, it's going to impact on standards, at the end of the day.


Just in terms of the foundation phase, there have been cuts, of course, in expenditure in that phase. How concerned are you about that and the impact that that will have on the way in which the foundation phase is taught in our schools? The foundation phase is now part of the education improvement grant, which has seen a reduction of 10 per cent, and it has to compete against other expenditure streams within that greater pot of funding. So, are you concerned that money is being lost and that that will have an impact on standards in the foundation phase?

I haven't seen any evidence. Obviously, I must reiterate the foundation phase does come under the Minister for Education, but I haven't seen any evidence of any standards being lowered, and the reports from Estyn are very good. In fact, I think the foundation phase is one of our great joys, that we absolutely celebrate it, and so I'd be very concerned if I thought there was any drop in standards in the foundation phase, and I certainly haven't had any evidence of that. I would want to guard against that.

Exactly, but if there are fewer teaching assistants in the system because of the cuts, it's going to impact on standards, at the end of the day.

I think we have to be very careful to see that lower standards are not implemented, because it was groundbreaking when we brought it in, and it has proved to be a great success, so we want to make sure that's guarded.


I haven't seen any evidence. Obviously, I must reiterate the foundation phase does come under the Minister for Education, but I haven't seen any evidence of any standards being lowered, and the reports from Estyn are very good. In fact, I think the foundation phase is one of our great joys, that we absolutely celebrate it, and so I'd be very concerned if I thought there was any drop in standards in the foundation phase, and I certainly haven't had any evidence of that. I would want to guard against that.

Exactly, but if there are fewer teaching assistants in the system because of the cuts, it's going to impact on standards, at the end of the day.

I think we have to be very careful to see that lower standards are not implemented, because it was groundbreaking when we brought it in, and it has proved to be a great success, so we want to make sure that's guarded.


Exactly, but if there are fewer teaching assistants in the system because of the cuts, it's going to impact on standards, at the end of the day.

I think we have to be very careful to see that lower standards are not implemented, because it was groundbreaking when we brought it in, and it has proved to be a great success, so we want to make sure that's guarded.

Going back to my original question about the big differences in amounts of early childhood education and care provision in different parts of Wales, the Welsh and UK Governments have followed a demand-driven approach to the childcare market, with subsidies mainly given to working parents. Is that a mistake? Should it be more universally available?


I think we have to be very careful to see that lower standards are not implemented, because it was groundbreaking when we brought it in, and it has proved to be a great success, so we want to make sure that's guarded.

Going back to my original question about the big differences in amounts of early childhood education and care provision in different parts of Wales, the Welsh and UK Governments have followed a demand-driven approach to the childcare market, with subsidies mainly given to working parents. Is that a mistake? Should it be more universally available?

Well, some of our provision is universally available in certain areas. For example, the Flying Start provision is universally available in geographically defined areas, and I think that's very important, because that does mean that there isn't stigma, and so,in those areas, everybody can take advantage of it, and yet it is reaching those who are most in need because it's reaching those areas. So, I think that there is a purpose behind that. In terms of when you say demand led, could you elaborate on that?


Going back to my original question about the big differences in amounts of early childhood education and care provision in different parts of Wales, the Welsh and UK Governments have followed a demand-driven approach to the childcare market, with subsidies mainly given to working parents. Is that a mistake? Should it be more universally available?

Well, some of our provision is universally available in certain areas. For example, the Flying Start provision is universally available in geographically defined areas, and I think that's very important, because that does mean that there isn't stigma, and so,in those areas, everybody can take advantage of it, and yet it is reaching those who are most in need because it's reaching those areas. So, I think that there is a purpose behind that. In terms of when you say demand led, could you elaborate on that?

I know that—we've just had a useful briefing from David Dallimore, and, basically, there is this theory that there are too many resources—the demand-driven approach is based more on certain factors: geographic spread in terms of it being more universal, and whether that's the right way. How do children then mix with peers from different backgrounds, in their own peer or age group?


Well, some of our provision is universally available in certain areas. For example, the Flying Start provision is universally available in geographically defined areas, and I think that's very important, because that does mean that there isn't stigma, and so,in those areas, everybody can take advantage of it, and yet it is reaching those who are most in need because it's reaching those areas. So, I think that there is a purpose behind that. In terms of when you say demand led, could you elaborate on that?

I know that—we've just had a useful briefing from David Dallimore, and, basically, there is this theory that there are too many resources—the demand-driven approach is based more on certain factors: geographic spread in terms of it being more universal, and whether that's the right way. How do children then mix with peers from different backgrounds, in their own peer or age group?

[Inaudible.]—because the offer is targeted at working parents—


I know that—we've just had a useful briefing from David Dallimore, and, basically, there is this theory that there are too many resources—the demand-driven approach is based more on certain factors: geographic spread in terms of it being more universal, and whether that's the right way. How do children then mix with peers from different backgrounds, in their own peer or age group?

[Inaudible.]—because the offer is targeted at working parents—


[Inaudible.]—because the offer is targeted at working parents—

—obviously, then the amount of availability is based on how many parents apply for it and take it up. Is that the context of demand led in that—


—obviously, then the amount of availability is based on how many parents apply for it and take it up. Is that the context of demand led in that—


—obviously, then the amount of availability is based on how many parents apply for it and take it up. Is that the context of demand led in that—

It is universally available to all parents who meet the eligibility criteria of working, and I think what you're saying is that it should be available to everybody.


It is universally available to all parents who meet the eligibility criteria of working, and I think what you're saying is that it should be available to everybody.

I think the point that Janet's making is that some areas have traditionally got more childcare anyway because they have traditionally had more demand in those areas, so there's not a level playing field to start from. Is that correct?


It is universally available to all parents who meet the eligibility criteria of working, and I think what you're saying is that it should be available to everybody.

I think the point that Janet's making is that some areas have traditionally got more childcare anyway because they have traditionally had more demand in those areas, so there's not a level playing field to start from. Is that correct?

I think that, historically, that is definitely true, and when you look at the take-up of the childcare offer, it's certainly taken up in some areas with a very high take-up rate. I think Ynys Môn was nearly 90 per cent or something—


I think the point that Janet's making is that some areas have traditionally got more childcare anyway because they have traditionally had more demand in those areas, so there's not a level playing field to start from. Is that correct?

I think that, historically, that is definitely true, and when you look at the take-up of the childcare offer, it's certainly taken up in some areas with a very high take-up rate. I think Ynys Môn was nearly 90 per cent or something—

They need more money, because they haven't got enough funding.


I think that, historically, that is definitely true, and when you look at the take-up of the childcare offer, it's certainly taken up in some areas with a very high take-up rate. I think Ynys Môn was nearly 90 per cent or something—

They need more money, because they haven't got enough funding.


They need more money, because they haven't got enough funding.

In other areas, it's much, much lower—in some of the cities, I know. So, there is a big range in take-up—


In other areas, it's much, much lower—in some of the cities, I know. So, there is a big range in take-up—

So, do you intend to bring something forward to address that?


In other areas, it's much, much lower—in some of the cities, I know. So, there is a big range in take-up—

So, do you intend to bring something forward to address that?

We are planning to extend it. We're looking at the possibility of extending it to parents who are in education and training. So, we are widening the offer, yes. Obviously, we have to wait for the evaluation of that. It would be great to be able to offer it to absolutely everybody, but obviously we have got the finance to look at in terms of how we do that. But we are certainly planning to expand it.


In other areas, it's much, much lower—in some of the cities, I know. So, there is a big range in take-up—

So, do you intend to bring something forward to address that?

We are planning to extend it. We're looking at the possibility of extending it to parents who are in education and training. So, we are widening the offer, yes. Obviously, we have to wait for the evaluation of that. It would be great to be able to offer it to absolutely everybody, but obviously we have got the finance to look at in terms of how we do that. But we are certainly planning to expand it.

We've got questions on the offer in a little while. Janet.


So, do you intend to bring something forward to address that?

We are planning to extend it. We're looking at the possibility of extending it to parents who are in education and training. So, we are widening the offer, yes. Obviously, we have to wait for the evaluation of that. It would be great to be able to offer it to absolutely everybody, but obviously we have got the finance to look at in terms of how we do that. But we are certainly planning to expand it.

We've got questions on the offer in a little while. Janet.

Does the Welsh Government intend to develop an integrated approach, then, against all settings? If so, given the current inconsistencies, how can quality be assured?


We are planning to extend it. We're looking at the possibility of extending it to parents who are in education and training. So, we are widening the offer, yes. Obviously, we have to wait for the evaluation of that. It would be great to be able to offer it to absolutely everybody, but obviously we have got the finance to look at in terms of how we do that. But we are certainly planning to expand it.

We've got questions on the offer in a little while. Janet.

Does the Welsh Government intend to develop an integrated approach, then, against all settings? If so, given the current inconsistencies, how can quality be assured?

We are developing a more integrated approach towards the early years. As I've said, we're trying to have the foundation phase operating in more non-maintained settings, and we're already developing that. But Estyn and CIW will continue to inspect and regulate the early years sector to ensure standards, and, since January 2019, CIW and Estyn have moved to joint inspections for the non-maintained settings that are offering the foundation phase. So, that is a very positive move, I think, and is absolutely making sure that standards are maintained, because if we are having the foundation phase in non-maintained settings, that is a challenge where we want to be sure that the standards and the philosophy of the foundation phase are maintained. So, we have got the system of inspection to ensure that.


We've got questions on the offer in a little while. Janet.

Does the Welsh Government intend to develop an integrated approach, then, against all settings? If so, given the current inconsistencies, how can quality be assured?

We are developing a more integrated approach towards the early years. As I've said, we're trying to have the foundation phase operating in more non-maintained settings, and we're already developing that. But Estyn and CIW will continue to inspect and regulate the early years sector to ensure standards, and, since January 2019, CIW and Estyn have moved to joint inspections for the non-maintained settings that are offering the foundation phase. So, that is a very positive move, I think, and is absolutely making sure that standards are maintained, because if we are having the foundation phase in non-maintained settings, that is a challenge where we want to be sure that the standards and the philosophy of the foundation phase are maintained. So, we have got the system of inspection to ensure that.

And finally from me, what specific steps have been put in place to take forward the commitments from the Welsh Government's 2017 childcare/play early years workforce plan to build a better understanding of the workforce's Welsh language skills to enable support for the sector to be targeted and to identify where capacity needs to be built for the future to meet the needs of the early years sector in a bilingual Wales?


Does the Welsh Government intend to develop an integrated approach, then, against all settings? If so, given the current inconsistencies, how can quality be assured?

We are developing a more integrated approach towards the early years. As I've said, we're trying to have the foundation phase operating in more non-maintained settings, and we're already developing that. But Estyn and CIW will continue to inspect and regulate the early years sector to ensure standards, and, since January 2019, CIW and Estyn have moved to joint inspections for the non-maintained settings that are offering the foundation phase. So, that is a very positive move, I think, and is absolutely making sure that standards are maintained, because if we are having the foundation phase in non-maintained settings, that is a challenge where we want to be sure that the standards and the philosophy of the foundation phase are maintained. So, we have got the system of inspection to ensure that.

And finally from me, what specific steps have been put in place to take forward the commitments from the Welsh Government's 2017 childcare/play early years workforce plan to build a better understanding of the workforce's Welsh language skills to enable support for the sector to be targeted and to identify where capacity needs to be built for the future to meet the needs of the early years sector in a bilingual Wales?

We think this is very important, and we're pleased that 29 per cent of children taking up the childcare offer are in Welsh or bilingual settings, so we think that's very good. We have established a specific programme to develop Welsh language skills in the childcare and play workforce with the National Centre for Learning Welsh, to develop workplace Welsh language skills across the sector. So, we're actually working with that, and I think you've done something with those recently, haven't you? I don't know if you want to—