Okay. Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now specifically on prosecutions and potential alternatives from Vikki Howells.

Thank you, Chair. You've already touched quite a bit on the issue of the public interest test. Is there anything else you'd like to put on record about the factors that the CPS would be taking into consideration when applying the public interest test in respect of this Bill?

Can I give you an example, which might illustrate the way in which things could be different? This is one, which—I give credit to Iwan for this, because he thought of it. If we take an adult with a small child—say, a four-year-old—in a supermarket, and the child is pulling cans off the shelves, it's quite annoying, and they keep doing it and keep doing it. The parent remonstrates, and the parent ends up finding that verbal admonishment is inadequate, and smacks the child lightly on the legs, which does the trick and the child stops. Presently, if someone in that supermarket were to report that to the police, I think the police would probably conclude that that is covered by the defence of reasonable chastisement. In other words, the evidential stage wouldn't be passed; you don't get on to consider the public interest. But if we have that same parent in there the following week, and you have the same happen again, presently, the defence would apply. Now, there comes a point in time when the defence stops applying. If that defence didn't apply at all, and we had a sequence of three offences, the public interest test would kick in, if I may put it like that, pretty quickly, because it would be repeated behaviour. So, that would be the distinction between how things are now and how they would be in the future, because the defence would not be available, so the public interest test would then come to the fore that much more quickly. So, when we apply the public interest test, the essence of it is about proportionality, and trying to come up with an approach that is proportionate to the offending. We look at the age of the offender, the age of the victim, we look at the circumstances, we look at the impact upon the victim, we look at the impact that's likely in relation to the suspect, and there is, within the code, a long list of matters that we take into account. Some of them are fairly obvious, such as previous convictions. If someone's got previous convictions for doing something wrong, it's more likely they're going to be prosecuted the next time. But there's no part of the law that says that prosecution will always follow. Mostly, it's reasonably obvious; the more serious an offence, the more likely you are to be prosecuted.


Thank you, Chair. You've already touched quite a bit on the issue of the public interest test. Is there anything else you'd like to put on record about the factors that the CPS would be taking into consideration when applying the public interest test in respect of this Bill?

Can I give you an example, which might illustrate the way in which things could be different? This is one, which—I give credit to Iwan for this, because he thought of it. If we take an adult with a small child—say, a four-year-old—in a supermarket, and the child is pulling cans off the shelves, it's quite annoying, and they keep doing it and keep doing it. The parent remonstrates, and the parent ends up finding that verbal admonishment is inadequate, and smacks the child lightly on the legs, which does the trick and the child stops. Presently, if someone in that supermarket were to report that to the police, I think the police would probably conclude that that is covered by the defence of reasonable chastisement. In other words, the evidential stage wouldn't be passed; you don't get on to consider the public interest. But if we have that same parent in there the following week, and you have the same happen again, presently, the defence would apply. Now, there comes a point in time when the defence stops applying. If that defence didn't apply at all, and we had a sequence of three offences, the public interest test would kick in, if I may put it like that, pretty quickly, because it would be repeated behaviour. So, that would be the distinction between how things are now and how they would be in the future, because the defence would not be available, so the public interest test would then come to the fore that much more quickly. So, when we apply the public interest test, the essence of it is about proportionality, and trying to come up with an approach that is proportionate to the offending. We look at the age of the offender, the age of the victim, we look at the circumstances, we look at the impact upon the victim, we look at the impact that's likely in relation to the suspect, and there is, within the code, a long list of matters that we take into account. Some of them are fairly obvious, such as previous convictions. If someone's got previous convictions for doing something wrong, it's more likely they're going to be prosecuted the next time. But there's no part of the law that says that prosecution will always follow. Mostly, it's reasonably obvious; the more serious an offence, the more likely you are to be prosecuted.

Just before you move on, can I ask you a question? This morning the committee was meeting with groups of parents who are opposed to the Bill and groups of parents who are for the Bill, and one of the parents this morning was querying where the interests of the child would come into the public interest test. Now, I've looked at the code and there is a section about impact on the victim. Can you just clarify for the record how the best interests of the child would be taken into account in considering whether to go forward with a prosecution?


Can I give you an example, which might illustrate the way in which things could be different? This is one, which—I give credit to Iwan for this, because he thought of it. If we take an adult with a small child—say, a four-year-old—in a supermarket, and the child is pulling cans off the shelves, it's quite annoying, and they keep doing it and keep doing it. The parent remonstrates, and the parent ends up finding that verbal admonishment is inadequate, and smacks the child lightly on the legs, which does the trick and the child stops. Presently, if someone in that supermarket were to report that to the police, I think the police would probably conclude that that is covered by the defence of reasonable chastisement. In other words, the evidential stage wouldn't be passed; you don't get on to consider the public interest. But if we have that same parent in there the following week, and you have the same happen again, presently, the defence would apply. Now, there comes a point in time when the defence stops applying. If that defence didn't apply at all, and we had a sequence of three offences, the public interest test would kick in, if I may put it like that, pretty quickly, because it would be repeated behaviour. So, that would be the distinction between how things are now and how they would be in the future, because the defence would not be available, so the public interest test would then come to the fore that much more quickly. So, when we apply the public interest test, the essence of it is about proportionality, and trying to come up with an approach that is proportionate to the offending. We look at the age of the offender, the age of the victim, we look at the circumstances, we look at the impact upon the victim, we look at the impact that's likely in relation to the suspect, and there is, within the code, a long list of matters that we take into account. Some of them are fairly obvious, such as previous convictions. If someone's got previous convictions for doing something wrong, it's more likely they're going to be prosecuted the next time. But there's no part of the law that says that prosecution will always follow. Mostly, it's reasonably obvious; the more serious an offence, the more likely you are to be prosecuted.

Just before you move on, can I ask you a question? This morning the committee was meeting with groups of parents who are opposed to the Bill and groups of parents who are for the Bill, and one of the parents this morning was querying where the interests of the child would come into the public interest test. Now, I've looked at the code and there is a section about impact on the victim. Can you just clarify for the record how the best interests of the child would be taken into account in considering whether to go forward with a prosecution?

Normally, if there were an assault by someone else upon a child, outside the family, we would tend to take views from the parents of that child. In circumstances where both parents, arguably, are the suspects, we probably wouldn't be asking them. We would find another way, and we would talk with the police to ensure that we are informed about how the child feels about what has happened. It may be that there are—. I can foresee real difficulties in circumstances where we have parents who are separating where the children are being used, effectively, in divorce proceedings, for example, where we might have one parent saying there was a really bad impact upon the child and the other parent saying there wasn't. We'd want to find a way to cut through that to work out really from the police how does the child feel about that. So, we would tailor it to the circumstances of the particular incident to assess how the child feels about it. It's not determinative, nor is it determinative in cases where we prosecute for adult defendants inflicting some form of assault upon adult victims. It's not determinative but it is a factor that we take into account.


Just before you move on, can I ask you a question? This morning the committee was meeting with groups of parents who are opposed to the Bill and groups of parents who are for the Bill, and one of the parents this morning was querying where the interests of the child would come into the public interest test. Now, I've looked at the code and there is a section about impact on the victim. Can you just clarify for the record how the best interests of the child would be taken into account in considering whether to go forward with a prosecution?

Normally, if there were an assault by someone else upon a child, outside the family, we would tend to take views from the parents of that child. In circumstances where both parents, arguably, are the suspects, we probably wouldn't be asking them. We would find another way, and we would talk with the police to ensure that we are informed about how the child feels about what has happened. It may be that there are—. I can foresee real difficulties in circumstances where we have parents who are separating where the children are being used, effectively, in divorce proceedings, for example, where we might have one parent saying there was a really bad impact upon the child and the other parent saying there wasn't. We'd want to find a way to cut through that to work out really from the police how does the child feel about that. So, we would tailor it to the circumstances of the particular incident to assess how the child feels about it. It's not determinative, nor is it determinative in cases where we prosecute for adult defendants inflicting some form of assault upon adult victims. It's not determinative but it is a factor that we take into account.

Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a supplementary on that.


Just before you move on, can I ask you a question? This morning the committee was meeting with groups of parents who are opposed to the Bill and groups of parents who are for the Bill, and one of the parents this morning was querying where the interests of the child would come into the public interest test. Now, I've looked at the code and there is a section about impact on the victim. Can you just clarify for the record how the best interests of the child would be taken into account in considering whether to go forward with a prosecution?

Normally, if there were an assault by someone else upon a child, outside the family, we would tend to take views from the parents of that child. In circumstances where both parents, arguably, are the suspects, we probably wouldn't be asking them. We would find another way, and we would talk with the police to ensure that we are informed about how the child feels about what has happened. It may be that there are—. I can foresee real difficulties in circumstances where we have parents who are separating where the children are being used, effectively, in divorce proceedings, for example, where we might have one parent saying there was a really bad impact upon the child and the other parent saying there wasn't. We'd want to find a way to cut through that to work out really from the police how does the child feel about that. So, we would tailor it to the circumstances of the particular incident to assess how the child feels about it. It's not determinative, nor is it determinative in cases where we prosecute for adult defendants inflicting some form of assault upon adult victims. It's not determinative but it is a factor that we take into account.

Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a supplementary on that.

Yes. In the same session this morning I thought this was an interesting question raised by a parent, on the rights of the child side of things, where if a parent offers a child two forms of punishment because that child has done something that they know they shouldn't have, and they're given the option of, 'You can have a quick smack and a cwtch, or you're going to your bedroom for quarter of an hour', and the child is allowed to choose and the child chooses the smack, what happens then? I'm not offering any views on the fact that this choice has been given, but it was put to us today about how would that fall in the law once it were changed.


Normally, if there were an assault by someone else upon a child, outside the family, we would tend to take views from the parents of that child. In circumstances where both parents, arguably, are the suspects, we probably wouldn't be asking them. We would find another way, and we would talk with the police to ensure that we are informed about how the child feels about what has happened. It may be that there are—. I can foresee real difficulties in circumstances where we have parents who are separating where the children are being used, effectively, in divorce proceedings, for example, where we might have one parent saying there was a really bad impact upon the child and the other parent saying there wasn't. We'd want to find a way to cut through that to work out really from the police how does the child feel about that. So, we would tailor it to the circumstances of the particular incident to assess how the child feels about it. It's not determinative, nor is it determinative in cases where we prosecute for adult defendants inflicting some form of assault upon adult victims. It's not determinative but it is a factor that we take into account.

Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a supplementary on that.

Yes. In the same session this morning I thought this was an interesting question raised by a parent, on the rights of the child side of things, where if a parent offers a child two forms of punishment because that child has done something that they know they shouldn't have, and they're given the option of, 'You can have a quick smack and a cwtch, or you're going to your bedroom for quarter of an hour', and the child is allowed to choose and the child chooses the smack, what happens then? I'm not offering any views on the fact that this choice has been given, but it was put to us today about how would that fall in the law once it were changed.

That's a really interesting question. There is a body of law that—


Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a supplementary on that.

Yes. In the same session this morning I thought this was an interesting question raised by a parent, on the rights of the child side of things, where if a parent offers a child two forms of punishment because that child has done something that they know they shouldn't have, and they're given the option of, 'You can have a quick smack and a cwtch, or you're going to your bedroom for quarter of an hour', and the child is allowed to choose and the child chooses the smack, what happens then? I'm not offering any views on the fact that this choice has been given, but it was put to us today about how would that fall in the law once it were changed.

That's a really interesting question. There is a body of law that—


Yes. In the same session this morning I thought this was an interesting question raised by a parent, on the rights of the child side of things, where if a parent offers a child two forms of punishment because that child has done something that they know they shouldn't have, and they're given the option of, 'You can have a quick smack and a cwtch, or you're going to your bedroom for quarter of an hour', and the child is allowed to choose and the child chooses the smack, what happens then? I'm not offering any views on the fact that this choice has been given, but it was put to us today about how would that fall in the law once it were changed.

That's a really interesting question. There is a body of law that—

Yes, you can't consent to a serious assault, apart from in certain—. The law is really quite difficult. So, for example, tattooing is a serious assault on one level, but you can consent to a tattoo. I can think of one case where a man branded his initials on a woman's buttocks, but she consented to it and the Court of Appeal held that they could consent to that. I can also think of a series of cases, which I won't get into here, that involve sadomasochistic behaviour between adults, some of which was really serious, and involved people willingly applying themselves to things that no sane person would do. And the Court of Appeal in that case, a case called Brown, said, 'No, that's going too far—you can't consent to that.' Then, you may have seen there was a case from the midlands recently where a gentleman operating a tattoo parlour was also involved in body surgery—splitting people's tongues. That went too far as well. So, there is again—I referred before to the spectrum of offending, and there is a clear spectrum of offending that you can realistically consent to and then you get to offending you can't consent to. So, the law has considered that in some depth. I'm still not entirely clear, and I speak as a lawyer. When it comes to much lesser assaults, the law is more unclear as to what you can consent to.


That's a really interesting question. There is a body of law that—

Yes, you can't consent to a serious assault, apart from in certain—. The law is really quite difficult. So, for example, tattooing is a serious assault on one level, but you can consent to a tattoo. I can think of one case where a man branded his initials on a woman's buttocks, but she consented to it and the Court of Appeal held that they could consent to that. I can also think of a series of cases, which I won't get into here, that involve sadomasochistic behaviour between adults, some of which was really serious, and involved people willingly applying themselves to things that no sane person would do. And the Court of Appeal in that case, a case called Brown, said, 'No, that's going too far—you can't consent to that.' Then, you may have seen there was a case from the midlands recently where a gentleman operating a tattoo parlour was also involved in body surgery—splitting people's tongues. That went too far as well. So, there is again—I referred before to the spectrum of offending, and there is a clear spectrum of offending that you can realistically consent to and then you get to offending you can't consent to. So, the law has considered that in some depth. I'm still not entirely clear, and I speak as a lawyer. When it comes to much lesser assaults, the law is more unclear as to what you can consent to.

Yes, because we're talking below a certain standard here as well. Okay.


Yes, you can't consent to a serious assault, apart from in certain—. The law is really quite difficult. So, for example, tattooing is a serious assault on one level, but you can consent to a tattoo. I can think of one case where a man branded his initials on a woman's buttocks, but she consented to it and the Court of Appeal held that they could consent to that. I can also think of a series of cases, which I won't get into here, that involve sadomasochistic behaviour between adults, some of which was really serious, and involved people willingly applying themselves to things that no sane person would do. And the Court of Appeal in that case, a case called Brown, said, 'No, that's going too far—you can't consent to that.' Then, you may have seen there was a case from the midlands recently where a gentleman operating a tattoo parlour was also involved in body surgery—splitting people's tongues. That went too far as well. So, there is again—I referred before to the spectrum of offending, and there is a clear spectrum of offending that you can realistically consent to and then you get to offending you can't consent to. So, the law has considered that in some depth. I'm still not entirely clear, and I speak as a lawyer. When it comes to much lesser assaults, the law is more unclear as to what you can consent to.

Yes, because we're talking below a certain standard here as well. Okay.

As to what you can consent to, it's less clear. It would need to be developed.


Yes, because we're talking below a certain standard here as well. Okay.

As to what you can consent to, it's less clear. It would need to be developed.


As to what you can consent to, it's less clear. It would need to be developed.

Thank you. I've got one further series of questions around out-of-court disposals, which you've already mentioned briefly. In your written evidence, you say there's ongoing work exploring diversion rather than prosecution in respect of this Bill. Firstly, could you tell us a bit more about the work that is being done to explore this as an option?


Thank you. I've got one further series of questions around out-of-court disposals, which you've already mentioned briefly. In your written evidence, you say there's ongoing work exploring diversion rather than prosecution in respect of this Bill. Firstly, could you tell us a bit more about the work that is being done to explore this as an option?

We've been working with the National Police Chiefs' Council. Their lead is deputy chief constable Sara Glen. She is responsible for developing the police approach to out-of-court disposals and simplifying the range of out-of-court disposals. There is quite a range, and life would be simpler and clearer to have fewer types of disposal with more clarity about what each one of them involved. I must say, this is primarily a matter for the police, because there are a great many offences or reports of crime that do not reach the CPS because they are dealt with by way of an out-of-court disposal. Any case that the police refer to us for a charging decision is going to be something—. There's a document called the director's guidance on charging, which is issued by the director of public prosecutions, which sets out offences the police may charge and offences the CPS may charge. Offences that the police refer to us for a charging decision will generally be offences where they feel that there should be a prosecution rather than an out-of-court disposal. There may be cases where it's genuinely very difficult to assess what's the best approach, in which case we will have a conversation with them, a meaningful conversation, about what's the best way to approach that particular case. There will also be cases, and we see these not that rarely, where the police will bring a case to us for a prosecution on the basis that satisfies the evidential stage and satisfies the public interest stage, and we take a different view on the public interest stage. So, we might say—for example, it involves a 15-year-old youth—we  think that diversion from the criminal justice system is a better disposal and we decide not to prosecute. We aren't responsible for administering the out-of-court disposal or indeed monitoring compliance with that disposal, if, for example, it has conditions attached, such as repayment of the damage caused to a window or a front gate. That's not our responsibility—that will fall to the police—but we can decide that an out-of-court disposal is a more appropriate disposal than a prosecution. Does that help?


Thank you. I've got one further series of questions around out-of-court disposals, which you've already mentioned briefly. In your written evidence, you say there's ongoing work exploring diversion rather than prosecution in respect of this Bill. Firstly, could you tell us a bit more about the work that is being done to explore this as an option?

We've been working with the National Police Chiefs' Council. Their lead is deputy chief constable Sara Glen. She is responsible for developing the police approach to out-of-court disposals and simplifying the range of out-of-court disposals. There is quite a range, and life would be simpler and clearer to have fewer types of disposal with more clarity about what each one of them involved. I must say, this is primarily a matter for the police, because there are a great many offences or reports of crime that do not reach the CPS because they are dealt with by way of an out-of-court disposal. Any case that the police refer to us for a charging decision is going to be something—. There's a document called the director's guidance on charging, which is issued by the director of public prosecutions, which sets out offences the police may charge and offences the CPS may charge. Offences that the police refer to us for a charging decision will generally be offences where they feel that there should be a prosecution rather than an out-of-court disposal. There may be cases where it's genuinely very difficult to assess what's the best approach, in which case we will have a conversation with them, a meaningful conversation, about what's the best way to approach that particular case. There will also be cases, and we see these not that rarely, where the police will bring a case to us for a prosecution on the basis that satisfies the evidential stage and satisfies the public interest stage, and we take a different view on the public interest stage. So, we might say—for example, it involves a 15-year-old youth—we  think that diversion from the criminal justice system is a better disposal and we decide not to prosecute. We aren't responsible for administering the out-of-court disposal or indeed monitoring compliance with that disposal, if, for example, it has conditions attached, such as repayment of the damage caused to a window or a front gate. That's not our responsibility—that will fall to the police—but we can decide that an out-of-court disposal is a more appropriate disposal than a prosecution. Does that help?

It does. One final question on that then: creating a body of out-of-court disposals that are specific to this Bill—how would that actually work in practice do you think, given the fact that the Assembly's legislative competence to make provision on the face of the Bill is limited?


Thank you. I've got one further series of questions around out-of-court disposals, which you've already mentioned briefly. In your written evidence, you say there's ongoing work exploring diversion rather than prosecution in respect of this Bill. Firstly, could you tell us a bit more about the work that is being done to explore this as an option?

We've been working with the National Police Chiefs' Council. Their lead is deputy chief constable Sara Glen. She is responsible for developing the police approach to out-of-court disposals and simplifying the range of out-of-court disposals. There is quite a range, and life would be simpler and clearer to have fewer types of disposal with more clarity about what each one of them involved. I must say, this is primarily a matter for the police, because there are a great many offences or reports of crime that do not reach the CPS because they are dealt with by way of an out-of-court disposal. Any case that the police refer to us for a charging decision is going to be something—. There's a document called the director's guidance on charging, which is issued by the director of public prosecutions, which sets out offences the police may charge and offences the CPS may charge. Offences that the police refer to us for a charging decision will generally be offences where they feel that there should be a prosecution rather than an out-of-court disposal. There may be cases where it's genuinely very difficult to assess what's the best approach, in which case we will have a conversation with them, a meaningful conversation, about what's the best way to approach that particular case. There will also be cases, and we see these not that rarely, where the police will bring a case to us for a prosecution on the basis that satisfies the evidential stage and satisfies the public interest stage, and we take a different view on the public interest stage. So, we might say—for example, it involves a 15-year-old youth—we  think that diversion from the criminal justice system is a better disposal and we decide not to prosecute. We aren't responsible for administering the out-of-court disposal or indeed monitoring compliance with that disposal, if, for example, it has conditions attached, such as repayment of the damage caused to a window or a front gate. That's not our responsibility—that will fall to the police—but we can decide that an out-of-court disposal is a more appropriate disposal than a prosecution. Does that help?

It does. One final question on that then: creating a body of out-of-court disposals that are specific to this Bill—how would that actually work in practice do you think, given the fact that the Assembly's legislative competence to make provision on the face of the Bill is limited?

The way I might see it is that, clearly, policing's not devolved, the CPS is not devolved—the way I might see this is that, within Wales, you could build an infrastructure that provides for a range of out-of-court disposals. You can't direct the police or the CPS to point people towards that, but, if you build a good infrastructure, it's more likely that people will be pointed in that direction.


We've been working with the National Police Chiefs' Council. Their lead is deputy chief constable Sara Glen. She is responsible for developing the police approach to out-of-court disposals and simplifying the range of out-of-court disposals. There is quite a range, and life would be simpler and clearer to have fewer types of disposal with more clarity about what each one of them involved. I must say, this is primarily a matter for the police, because there are a great many offences or reports of crime that do not reach the CPS because they are dealt with by way of an out-of-court disposal. Any case that the police refer to us for a charging decision is going to be something—. There's a document called the director's guidance on charging, which is issued by the director of public prosecutions, which sets out offences the police may charge and offences the CPS may charge. Offences that the police refer to us for a charging decision will generally be offences where they feel that there should be a prosecution rather than an out-of-court disposal. There may be cases where it's genuinely very difficult to assess what's the best approach, in which case we will have a conversation with them, a meaningful conversation, about what's the best way to approach that particular case. There will also be cases, and we see these not that rarely, where the police will bring a case to us for a prosecution on the basis that satisfies the evidential stage and satisfies the public interest stage, and we take a different view on the public interest stage. So, we might say—for example, it involves a 15-year-old youth—we  think that diversion from the criminal justice system is a better disposal and we decide not to prosecute. We aren't responsible for administering the out-of-court disposal or indeed monitoring compliance with that disposal, if, for example, it has conditions attached, such as repayment of the damage caused to a window or a front gate. That's not our responsibility—that will fall to the police—but we can decide that an out-of-court disposal is a more appropriate disposal than a prosecution. Does that help?

It does. One final question on that then: creating a body of out-of-court disposals that are specific to this Bill—how would that actually work in practice do you think, given the fact that the Assembly's legislative competence to make provision on the face of the Bill is limited?

The way I might see it is that, clearly, policing's not devolved, the CPS is not devolved—the way I might see this is that, within Wales, you could build an infrastructure that provides for a range of out-of-court disposals. You can't direct the police or the CPS to point people towards that, but, if you build a good infrastructure, it's more likely that people will be pointed in that direction.

And who would build that infrastructure, in your opinion?


It does. One final question on that then: creating a body of out-of-court disposals that are specific to this Bill—how would that actually work in practice do you think, given the fact that the Assembly's legislative competence to make provision on the face of the Bill is limited?

The way I might see it is that, clearly, policing's not devolved, the CPS is not devolved—the way I might see this is that, within Wales, you could build an infrastructure that provides for a range of out-of-court disposals. You can't direct the police or the CPS to point people towards that, but, if you build a good infrastructure, it's more likely that people will be pointed in that direction.

And who would build that infrastructure, in your opinion?

Somewhere within Wales—Welsh Government, local authorities, the police working in partnership. It may be that the police and crime commissioners use some of their commissioning powers to work something up. I'm not the right person to answer that question.


The way I might see it is that, clearly, policing's not devolved, the CPS is not devolved—the way I might see this is that, within Wales, you could build an infrastructure that provides for a range of out-of-court disposals. You can't direct the police or the CPS to point people towards that, but, if you build a good infrastructure, it's more likely that people will be pointed in that direction.

And who would build that infrastructure, in your opinion?

Somewhere within Wales—Welsh Government, local authorities, the police working in partnership. It may be that the police and crime commissioners use some of their commissioning powers to work something up. I'm not the right person to answer that question.


And who would build that infrastructure, in your opinion?

Somewhere within Wales—Welsh Government, local authorities, the police working in partnership. It may be that the police and crime commissioners use some of their commissioning powers to work something up. I'm not the right person to answer that question.

Thank you. If I could just ask about awareness raising, then: you mentioned the Bill in Scotland, but that Bill includes a duty on the Government to raise awareness of the change. There's no such duty proposed in this Bill. Do you think that's right or should this committee be saying that there should be a similar duty imposed in Wales?


Somewhere within Wales—Welsh Government, local authorities, the police working in partnership. It may be that the police and crime commissioners use some of their commissioning powers to work something up. I'm not the right person to answer that question.

Thank you. If I could just ask about awareness raising, then: you mentioned the Bill in Scotland, but that Bill includes a duty on the Government to raise awareness of the change. There's no such duty proposed in this Bill. Do you think that's right or should this committee be saying that there should be a similar duty imposed in Wales?

I'm not sure it's for me to say whether there should be a duty or not. I can, however, say that I think the greater the level of awareness, the more likely it is that the Act, if passed, will achieve its intentions.


Thank you. If I could just ask about awareness raising, then: you mentioned the Bill in Scotland, but that Bill includes a duty on the Government to raise awareness of the change. There's no such duty proposed in this Bill. Do you think that's right or should this committee be saying that there should be a similar duty imposed in Wales?

I'm not sure it's for me to say whether there should be a duty or not. I can, however, say that I think the greater the level of awareness, the more likely it is that the Act, if passed, will achieve its intentions.

Okay, thank you. And, in your written evidence, you mentioned the fact that there's no indication of any plans for awareness raising in England and that if a person from England is being prosecuted in Wales as a result of this change, a question could arise about the lack of knowledge about the different provisions that apply in Wales. Can I ask what approach the CPS currently takes in Wales if a law is unintentionally broken by someone who's come from outside the UK, for example?


Thank you. If I could just ask about awareness raising, then: you mentioned the Bill in Scotland, but that Bill includes a duty on the Government to raise awareness of the change. There's no such duty proposed in this Bill. Do you think that's right or should this committee be saying that there should be a similar duty imposed in Wales?

I'm not sure it's for me to say whether there should be a duty or not. I can, however, say that I think the greater the level of awareness, the more likely it is that the Act, if passed, will achieve its intentions.

Okay, thank you. And, in your written evidence, you mentioned the fact that there's no indication of any plans for awareness raising in England and that if a person from England is being prosecuted in Wales as a result of this change, a question could arise about the lack of knowledge about the different provisions that apply in Wales. Can I ask what approach the CPS currently takes in Wales if a law is unintentionally broken by someone who's come from outside the UK, for example?

It's straightforward: if someone comes to this country and commits an offence here—by this country, I'd say England or Wales; I'd treat them as one for these purposes—if someone comes from abroad and commits an offence that isn't an offence in their country, but is an offence here, then I'm afraid that ignorance of the law is no defence. So, raising awareness is important, and I saw, and I was pleased to see, that the media publicity surrounding this proposed legislation, which is now going through, reached as far afield as New York and had widespread media coverage across England and Wales, and I think the Government would be well placed here to take advantage of that willingness of the media to explore something, which is potentially divisive, and I think you've probably seen some of that. Anything like that is a good story, and a good story gets out there, which means you're more likely to make people aware of it.


I'm not sure it's for me to say whether there should be a duty or not. I can, however, say that I think the greater the level of awareness, the more likely it is that the Act, if passed, will achieve its intentions.

Okay, thank you. And, in your written evidence, you mentioned the fact that there's no indication of any plans for awareness raising in England and that if a person from England is being prosecuted in Wales as a result of this change, a question could arise about the lack of knowledge about the different provisions that apply in Wales. Can I ask what approach the CPS currently takes in Wales if a law is unintentionally broken by someone who's come from outside the UK, for example?

It's straightforward: if someone comes to this country and commits an offence here—by this country, I'd say England or Wales; I'd treat them as one for these purposes—if someone comes from abroad and commits an offence that isn't an offence in their country, but is an offence here, then I'm afraid that ignorance of the law is no defence. So, raising awareness is important, and I saw, and I was pleased to see, that the media publicity surrounding this proposed legislation, which is now going through, reached as far afield as New York and had widespread media coverage across England and Wales, and I think the Government would be well placed here to take advantage of that willingness of the media to explore something, which is potentially divisive, and I think you've probably seen some of that. Anything like that is a good story, and a good story gets out there, which means you're more likely to make people aware of it.

Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the unintended consequences from Siân Gwenllian.


Okay, thank you. And, in your written evidence, you mentioned the fact that there's no indication of any plans for awareness raising in England and that if a person from England is being prosecuted in Wales as a result of this change, a question could arise about the lack of knowledge about the different provisions that apply in Wales. Can I ask what approach the CPS currently takes in Wales if a law is unintentionally broken by someone who's come from outside the UK, for example?

It's straightforward: if someone comes to this country and commits an offence here—by this country, I'd say England or Wales; I'd treat them as one for these purposes—if someone comes from abroad and commits an offence that isn't an offence in their country, but is an offence here, then I'm afraid that ignorance of the law is no defence. So, raising awareness is important, and I saw, and I was pleased to see, that the media publicity surrounding this proposed legislation, which is now going through, reached as far afield as New York and had widespread media coverage across England and Wales, and I think the Government would be well placed here to take advantage of that willingness of the media to explore something, which is potentially divisive, and I think you've probably seen some of that. Anything like that is a good story, and a good story gets out there, which means you're more likely to make people aware of it.

Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the unintended consequences from Siân Gwenllian.

Yes, we've discussed some of these already, but, for example, under the new law, or the proposed law, would one unintended consequence be that, if someone living in Wales who can't use the reasonable punishment defence—would their life prospects be different compared to those people in England, who will be able to use that defence? I think you've mentioned that in your written evidence.


It's straightforward: if someone comes to this country and commits an offence here—by this country, I'd say England or Wales; I'd treat them as one for these purposes—if someone comes from abroad and commits an offence that isn't an offence in their country, but is an offence here, then I'm afraid that ignorance of the law is no defence. So, raising awareness is important, and I saw, and I was pleased to see, that the media publicity surrounding this proposed legislation, which is now going through, reached as far afield as New York and had widespread media coverage across England and Wales, and I think the Government would be well placed here to take advantage of that willingness of the media to explore something, which is potentially divisive, and I think you've probably seen some of that. Anything like that is a good story, and a good story gets out there, which means you're more likely to make people aware of it.

Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the unintended consequences from Siân Gwenllian.

Yes, we've discussed some of these already, but, for example, under the new law, or the proposed law, would one unintended consequence be that, if someone living in Wales who can't use the reasonable punishment defence—would their life prospects be different compared to those people in England, who will be able to use that defence? I think you've mentioned that in your written evidence.

Yes. Okay. A simple answer: if somebody in Wales is convicted—so, if it goes towards the end of the spectrum that is serious, which results in a prosecution—. It may be—the sort of circumstance I can see happening here is somebody who takes a principled stand and declines any form of out-of-court disposal and says, 'Prosecute me'. We probably would end up prosecuting, because it's a relatively serious offence. So, let's say it comes to court and let's say they end up being convicted of assaulting their child—in circumstances that would not have happened in England—then they would have a criminal conviction they wouldn't have in England, and that, inevitably, has an impact upon their life prospects. But I think, along the road there, there would have been an element of choice.


Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the unintended consequences from Siân Gwenllian.

Yes, we've discussed some of these already, but, for example, under the new law, or the proposed law, would one unintended consequence be that, if someone living in Wales who can't use the reasonable punishment defence—would their life prospects be different compared to those people in England, who will be able to use that defence? I think you've mentioned that in your written evidence.

Yes. Okay. A simple answer: if somebody in Wales is convicted—so, if it goes towards the end of the spectrum that is serious, which results in a prosecution—. It may be—the sort of circumstance I can see happening here is somebody who takes a principled stand and declines any form of out-of-court disposal and says, 'Prosecute me'. We probably would end up prosecuting, because it's a relatively serious offence. So, let's say it comes to court and let's say they end up being convicted of assaulting their child—in circumstances that would not have happened in England—then they would have a criminal conviction they wouldn't have in England, and that, inevitably, has an impact upon their life prospects. But I think, along the road there, there would have been an element of choice.

Okay. And do you think that that would be an isolated incident?


Yes, we've discussed some of these already, but, for example, under the new law, or the proposed law, would one unintended consequence be that, if someone living in Wales who can't use the reasonable punishment defence—would their life prospects be different compared to those people in England, who will be able to use that defence? I think you've mentioned that in your written evidence.

Yes. Okay. A simple answer: if somebody in Wales is convicted—so, if it goes towards the end of the spectrum that is serious, which results in a prosecution—. It may be—the sort of circumstance I can see happening here is somebody who takes a principled stand and declines any form of out-of-court disposal and says, 'Prosecute me'. We probably would end up prosecuting, because it's a relatively serious offence. So, let's say it comes to court and let's say they end up being convicted of assaulting their child—in circumstances that would not have happened in England—then they would have a criminal conviction they wouldn't have in England, and that, inevitably, has an impact upon their life prospects. But I think, along the road there, there would have been an element of choice.

Okay. And do you think that that would be an isolated incident?

Yes, truly, I believe, an isolated incident. I've said before that I would be very surprised if we even had referrals that reached double figures on these cases. They're likely to be very limited. When the CPS was asked to conduct a survey across all of England and Wales—this was the review in 2007—it spanned just over a two-year period, and there were 12 cases that were brought up at that stage. Now, I have to say, I don't think that's entirely reliable, but it is indicative. We had a Freedom of Information Act request at one stage, which threw up something like three cases in a year. So, if you think about that as being all of England and Wales—and we make up about 5 per cent of the volume of criminal prosecutions nationally—you can see why I might say the numbers are likely to be small, for the reasons we've explored about getting past the evidential stage into the public interest.


Yes. Okay. A simple answer: if somebody in Wales is convicted—so, if it goes towards the end of the spectrum that is serious, which results in a prosecution—. It may be—the sort of circumstance I can see happening here is somebody who takes a principled stand and declines any form of out-of-court disposal and says, 'Prosecute me'. We probably would end up prosecuting, because it's a relatively serious offence. So, let's say it comes to court and let's say they end up being convicted of assaulting their child—in circumstances that would not have happened in England—then they would have a criminal conviction they wouldn't have in England, and that, inevitably, has an impact upon their life prospects. But I think, along the road there, there would have been an element of choice.

Okay. And do you think that that would be an isolated incident?

Yes, truly, I believe, an isolated incident. I've said before that I would be very surprised if we even had referrals that reached double figures on these cases. They're likely to be very limited. When the CPS was asked to conduct a survey across all of England and Wales—this was the review in 2007—it spanned just over a two-year period, and there were 12 cases that were brought up at that stage. Now, I have to say, I don't think that's entirely reliable, but it is indicative. We had a Freedom of Information Act request at one stage, which threw up something like three cases in a year. So, if you think about that as being all of England and Wales—and we make up about 5 per cent of the volume of criminal prosecutions nationally—you can see why I might say the numbers are likely to be small, for the reasons we've explored about getting past the evidential stage into the public interest.

Thank you for that. In terms of thinking about another kind of unintended consequence, in terms of managing performance and all of the targets that the police need to reach, are we perhaps going to see some people going through the criminal justice system in an inappropriate way and contrary to the interests of the child, because we need to reach some target in terms of performance measures?


Okay. And do you think that that would be an isolated incident?

Yes, truly, I believe, an isolated incident. I've said before that I would be very surprised if we even had referrals that reached double figures on these cases. They're likely to be very limited. When the CPS was asked to conduct a survey across all of England and Wales—this was the review in 2007—it spanned just over a two-year period, and there were 12 cases that were brought up at that stage. Now, I have to say, I don't think that's entirely reliable, but it is indicative. We had a Freedom of Information Act request at one stage, which threw up something like three cases in a year. So, if you think about that as being all of England and Wales—and we make up about 5 per cent of the volume of criminal prosecutions nationally—you can see why I might say the numbers are likely to be small, for the reasons we've explored about getting past the evidential stage into the public interest.

Thank you for that. In terms of thinking about another kind of unintended consequence, in terms of managing performance and all of the targets that the police need to reach, are we perhaps going to see some people going through the criminal justice system in an inappropriate way and contrary to the interests of the child, because we need to reach some target in terms of performance measures?

I have to say I think that extremely unlikely. In the CPS, we don't have targets for securing convictions or not. Clearly, we prosecute if we think that there's a reasonable prospect, a realistic prospect, of conviction and it's in the public interest, but we have no targets. And I would also say, because the numbers here are likely to be so small, any assertion of looking to meet targets—it's a tiny, tiny fragment of a drop in the ocean.


Yes, truly, I believe, an isolated incident. I've said before that I would be very surprised if we even had referrals that reached double figures on these cases. They're likely to be very limited. When the CPS was asked to conduct a survey across all of England and Wales—this was the review in 2007—it spanned just over a two-year period, and there were 12 cases that were brought up at that stage. Now, I have to say, I don't think that's entirely reliable, but it is indicative. We had a Freedom of Information Act request at one stage, which threw up something like three cases in a year. So, if you think about that as being all of England and Wales—and we make up about 5 per cent of the volume of criminal prosecutions nationally—you can see why I might say the numbers are likely to be small, for the reasons we've explored about getting past the evidential stage into the public interest.

Thank you for that. In terms of thinking about another kind of unintended consequence, in terms of managing performance and all of the targets that the police need to reach, are we perhaps going to see some people going through the criminal justice system in an inappropriate way and contrary to the interests of the child, because we need to reach some target in terms of performance measures?

I have to say I think that extremely unlikely. In the CPS, we don't have targets for securing convictions or not. Clearly, we prosecute if we think that there's a reasonable prospect, a realistic prospect, of conviction and it's in the public interest, but we have no targets. And I would also say, because the numbers here are likely to be so small, any assertion of looking to meet targets—it's a tiny, tiny fragment of a drop in the ocean.

What about—? There is a target for unsolved crimes, or unsolved offences. What if they fall into that category? Is that an unintended consequence?


Thank you for that. In terms of thinking about another kind of unintended consequence, in terms of managing performance and all of the targets that the police need to reach, are we perhaps going to see some people going through the criminal justice system in an inappropriate way and contrary to the interests of the child, because we need to reach some target in terms of performance measures?

I have to say I think that extremely unlikely. In the CPS, we don't have targets for securing convictions or not. Clearly, we prosecute if we think that there's a reasonable prospect, a realistic prospect, of conviction and it's in the public interest, but we have no targets. And I would also say, because the numbers here are likely to be so small, any assertion of looking to meet targets—it's a tiny, tiny fragment of a drop in the ocean.

What about—? There is a target for unsolved crimes, or unsolved offences. What if they fall into that category? Is that an unintended consequence?

I'm talking about something I don't have great knowledge of here. There was, at one stage, a series of targets for the police that bore down upon cases that secure what was called a sanction detection, which counted for Home Office figures. That disappeared some years ago. Some individual constabularies may still have targets, but, as far as I'm aware, we don't have a suite of national measures. The police are required to report against this, but we don't have targets. And, in my experience, the police are much more sensible these days than they may have been 20 years ago, in terms of trying to get cases charged in order to meet some notional target. It's much less of an issue than it ever was—much.


I have to say I think that extremely unlikely. In the CPS, we don't have targets for securing convictions or not. Clearly, we prosecute if we think that there's a reasonable prospect, a realistic prospect, of conviction and it's in the public interest, but we have no targets. And I would also say, because the numbers here are likely to be so small, any assertion of looking to meet targets—it's a tiny, tiny fragment of a drop in the ocean.

What about—? There is a target for unsolved crimes, or unsolved offences. What if they fall into that category? Is that an unintended consequence?

I'm talking about something I don't have great knowledge of here. There was, at one stage, a series of targets for the police that bore down upon cases that secure what was called a sanction detection, which counted for Home Office figures. That disappeared some years ago. Some individual constabularies may still have targets, but, as far as I'm aware, we don't have a suite of national measures. The police are required to report against this, but we don't have targets. And, in my experience, the police are much more sensible these days than they may have been 20 years ago, in terms of trying to get cases charged in order to meet some notional target. It's much less of an issue than it ever was—much.

Okay. We've mentioned this, namely the risk of malicious reporting against parents involved in private family law cases. This happens now, of course. Is that going to increase if we change the law?


What about—? There is a target for unsolved crimes, or unsolved offences. What if they fall into that category? Is that an unintended consequence?

I'm talking about something I don't have great knowledge of here. There was, at one stage, a series of targets for the police that bore down upon cases that secure what was called a sanction detection, which counted for Home Office figures. That disappeared some years ago. Some individual constabularies may still have targets, but, as far as I'm aware, we don't have a suite of national measures. The police are required to report against this, but we don't have targets. And, in my experience, the police are much more sensible these days than they may have been 20 years ago, in terms of trying to get cases charged in order to meet some notional target. It's much less of an issue than it ever was—much.

Okay. We've mentioned this, namely the risk of malicious reporting against parents involved in private family law cases. This happens now, of course. Is that going to increase if we change the law?

There is greater potential for it to increase. I think the numbers, again, will be tiny, and dwarfed by the number of cases where we have to deal with the fallout between a relationship breakdown between partners—whether they be living within the same house or living in different houses. Regrettably, there are times when children are used as part of this ongoing dispute. Getting into the subtleties of the father, say, smacking the child in a way that was reasonable chastisement or was not reasonable chastisement is probably part of a much bigger piece here. I can see it potentially arising. It's not something that would cause me concern, simply because we already have a well-developed approach to dealing with the way in which we evaluate the evidence from parties who may well have a particular position that they want to reinforce, sometimes through exaggeration of basic facts and sometimes through fabrication.


I'm talking about something I don't have great knowledge of here. There was, at one stage, a series of targets for the police that bore down upon cases that secure what was called a sanction detection, which counted for Home Office figures. That disappeared some years ago. Some individual constabularies may still have targets, but, as far as I'm aware, we don't have a suite of national measures. The police are required to report against this, but we don't have targets. And, in my experience, the police are much more sensible these days than they may have been 20 years ago, in terms of trying to get cases charged in order to meet some notional target. It's much less of an issue than it ever was—much.

Okay. We've mentioned this, namely the risk of malicious reporting against parents involved in private family law cases. This happens now, of course. Is that going to increase if we change the law?

There is greater potential for it to increase. I think the numbers, again, will be tiny, and dwarfed by the number of cases where we have to deal with the fallout between a relationship breakdown between partners—whether they be living within the same house or living in different houses. Regrettably, there are times when children are used as part of this ongoing dispute. Getting into the subtleties of the father, say, smacking the child in a way that was reasonable chastisement or was not reasonable chastisement is probably part of a much bigger piece here. I can see it potentially arising. It's not something that would cause me concern, simply because we already have a well-developed approach to dealing with the way in which we evaluate the evidence from parties who may well have a particular position that they want to reinforce, sometimes through exaggeration of basic facts and sometimes through fabrication.

Are there any other unintended consequences that come to your mind if we introduce this law?


Okay. We've mentioned this, namely the risk of malicious reporting against parents involved in private family law cases. This happens now, of course. Is that going to increase if we change the law?

There is greater potential for it to increase. I think the numbers, again, will be tiny, and dwarfed by the number of cases where we have to deal with the fallout between a relationship breakdown between partners—whether they be living within the same house or living in different houses. Regrettably, there are times when children are used as part of this ongoing dispute. Getting into the subtleties of the father, say, smacking the child in a way that was reasonable chastisement or was not reasonable chastisement is probably part of a much bigger piece here. I can see it potentially arising. It's not something that would cause me concern, simply because we already have a well-developed approach to dealing with the way in which we evaluate the evidence from parties who may well have a particular position that they want to reinforce, sometimes through exaggeration of basic facts and sometimes through fabrication.

Are there any other unintended consequences that come to your mind if we introduce this law?

No, I think we've had a pretty helpful canter through most of the circumstances here that might happen. And I can't think of anything else off the top of my head.


There is greater potential for it to increase. I think the numbers, again, will be tiny, and dwarfed by the number of cases where we have to deal with the fallout between a relationship breakdown between partners—whether they be living within the same house or living in different houses. Regrettably, there are times when children are used as part of this ongoing dispute. Getting into the subtleties of the father, say, smacking the child in a way that was reasonable chastisement or was not reasonable chastisement is probably part of a much bigger piece here. I can see it potentially arising. It's not something that would cause me concern, simply because we already have a well-developed approach to dealing with the way in which we evaluate the evidence from parties who may well have a particular position that they want to reinforce, sometimes through exaggeration of basic facts and sometimes through fabrication.

Are there any other unintended consequences that come to your mind if we introduce this law?

No, I think we've had a pretty helpful canter through most of the circumstances here that might happen. And I can't think of anything else off the top of my head.

Finally from me, therefore—another issue, in a way—the European convention on human rights. Would not introducing the new law mean, at some point, that Wales could get itself into difficulty because there is a breach of the human rights convention? And therefore England as well, at some point.


Are there any other unintended consequences that come to your mind if we introduce this law?

No, I think we've had a pretty helpful canter through most of the circumstances here that might happen. And I can't think of anything else off the top of my head.

Finally from me, therefore—another issue, in a way—the European convention on human rights. Would not introducing the new law mean, at some point, that Wales could get itself into difficulty because there is a breach of the human rights convention? And therefore England as well, at some point.

Right. How to approach that one? In the 2007 review to which we've referred already, the Government, the then Government, set out its position that it believes that section 58, in the way that it was drafted, is compliant with the European convention. There are various parties who would disagree with that, but that was the then Government's position. If Wales implements this legislation and it becomes part of the law, then, arguably, Wales would be more in compliance with ECHR than not, and England would be less so. But nonetheless, at present, I haven't seen any demurral from the position that was expressed in 2007, which is that they consider that the position that's been adopted with section 58 is compliant with the legislation. It may well be tested by case law; that's the way it's likely to happen. Some of the changes in this arena were driven by case law—so, that case I referred to, Regina v H, which was heard back in 2001 in the Court of Appeal, was significant in helping shape the direction of travel towards section 58.


No, I think we've had a pretty helpful canter through most of the circumstances here that might happen. And I can't think of anything else off the top of my head.

Finally from me, therefore—another issue, in a way—the European convention on human rights. Would not introducing the new law mean, at some point, that Wales could get itself into difficulty because there is a breach of the human rights convention? And therefore England as well, at some point.

Right. How to approach that one? In the 2007 review to which we've referred already, the Government, the then Government, set out its position that it believes that section 58, in the way that it was drafted, is compliant with the European convention. There are various parties who would disagree with that, but that was the then Government's position. If Wales implements this legislation and it becomes part of the law, then, arguably, Wales would be more in compliance with ECHR than not, and England would be less so. But nonetheless, at present, I haven't seen any demurral from the position that was expressed in 2007, which is that they consider that the position that's been adopted with section 58 is compliant with the legislation. It may well be tested by case law; that's the way it's likely to happen. Some of the changes in this arena were driven by case law—so, that case I referred to, Regina v H, which was heard back in 2001 in the Court of Appeal, was significant in helping shape the direction of travel towards section 58.

And that case law not necessarily would have to happen within the UK—that case law could come from other countries within the European Union.


Finally from me, therefore—another issue, in a way—the European convention on human rights. Would not introducing the new law mean, at some point, that Wales could get itself into difficulty because there is a breach of the human rights convention? And therefore England as well, at some point.

Right. How to approach that one? In the 2007 review to which we've referred already, the Government, the then Government, set out its position that it believes that section 58, in the way that it was drafted, is compliant with the European convention. There are various parties who would disagree with that, but that was the then Government's position. If Wales implements this legislation and it becomes part of the law, then, arguably, Wales would be more in compliance with ECHR than not, and England would be less so. But nonetheless, at present, I haven't seen any demurral from the position that was expressed in 2007, which is that they consider that the position that's been adopted with section 58 is compliant with the legislation. It may well be tested by case law; that's the way it's likely to happen. Some of the changes in this arena were driven by case law—so, that case I referred to, Regina v H, which was heard back in 2001 in the Court of Appeal, was significant in helping shape the direction of travel towards section 58.

And that case law not necessarily would have to happen within the UK—that case law could come from other countries within the European Union.

It could, but I would be a foolish man if I were to say what impact European jurisprudence might have upon us. [Laughter.]


Right. How to approach that one? In the 2007 review to which we've referred already, the Government, the then Government, set out its position that it believes that section 58, in the way that it was drafted, is compliant with the European convention. There are various parties who would disagree with that, but that was the then Government's position. If Wales implements this legislation and it becomes part of the law, then, arguably, Wales would be more in compliance with ECHR than not, and England would be less so. But nonetheless, at present, I haven't seen any demurral from the position that was expressed in 2007, which is that they consider that the position that's been adopted with section 58 is compliant with the legislation. It may well be tested by case law; that's the way it's likely to happen. Some of the changes in this arena were driven by case law—so, that case I referred to, Regina v H, which was heard back in 2001 in the Court of Appeal, was significant in helping shape the direction of travel towards section 58.

And that case law not necessarily would have to happen within the UK—that case law could come from other countries within the European Union.

It could, but I would be a foolish man if I were to say what impact European jurisprudence might have upon us. [Laughter.]

[Inaudible.]—like common law jurisdictions would be.


And that case law not necessarily would have to happen within the UK—that case law could come from other countries within the European Union.

It could, but I would be a foolish man if I were to say what impact European jurisprudence might have upon us. [Laughter.]

[Inaudible.]—like common law jurisdictions would be.

Yes. At this point in time, that'd be a bit of a punt.


It could, but I would be a foolish man if I were to say what impact European jurisprudence might have upon us. [Laughter.]

[Inaudible.]—like common law jurisdictions would be.

Yes. At this point in time, that'd be a bit of a punt.


[Inaudible.]—like common law jurisdictions would be.

Yes. At this point in time, that'd be a bit of a punt.

Yes. Suzy's touched on this mildly, but, in written evidence, you say that you do not consider that the costs of prosecuting cases made possible by the Bill will be of great significance to the Crown Prosecution Service, and you're basing that, from your evidence here today, on the low numbers of prosecutions. So, we've been asked by individuals, and we've had consultation responses from individuals, who've argued that there is no point creating legislation if people are not prosecuted for breaching it. What's your answer to that?


Yes. At this point in time, that'd be a bit of a punt.

Yes. Suzy's touched on this mildly, but, in written evidence, you say that you do not consider that the costs of prosecuting cases made possible by the Bill will be of great significance to the Crown Prosecution Service, and you're basing that, from your evidence here today, on the low numbers of prosecutions. So, we've been asked by individuals, and we've had consultation responses from individuals, who've argued that there is no point creating legislation if people are not prosecuted for breaching it. What's your answer to that?

There is a huge body of legislation out there that outlaws certain offences, and I think probably about—. There are over—. From memory—please never hold me to this—but, from memory, there are something like 10,000 criminal offences; we probably prosecute 5 per cent of those in any given year. There are some offences on the statute—. I've been prosecuting for 32 years now; there are some offences that I've never come near and probably never will. But, nonetheless, the fact those offences exist sets out in terms what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. So, we have various defences to do with Acts. I remember seeing some about Antarctic stations and offences that might be committed there. Well, they're not something that we do, but it sets out what's tolerant—what's tolerable, sorry, and what isn't. So, the fact that we might not have many prosecutions is, for me, not a reason not to say that we shouldn't signify that certain behaviour is or is not acceptable. Clearly, we don't wish to criminalise everything—that would be a nonsense—or to attempt to set the boundaries by almost micromanaging what individuals do and don't do. The criminal law provides a general framework within which to operate, which most people tend to understand. So, awareness is important and it comes back to that point.


Yes. Suzy's touched on this mildly, but, in written evidence, you say that you do not consider that the costs of prosecuting cases made possible by the Bill will be of great significance to the Crown Prosecution Service, and you're basing that, from your evidence here today, on the low numbers of prosecutions. So, we've been asked by individuals, and we've had consultation responses from individuals, who've argued that there is no point creating legislation if people are not prosecuted for breaching it. What's your answer to that?

There is a huge body of legislation out there that outlaws certain offences, and I think probably about—. There are over—. From memory—please never hold me to this—but, from memory, there are something like 10,000 criminal offences; we probably prosecute 5 per cent of those in any given year. There are some offences on the statute—. I've been prosecuting for 32 years now; there are some offences that I've never come near and probably never will. But, nonetheless, the fact those offences exist sets out in terms what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. So, we have various defences to do with Acts. I remember seeing some about Antarctic stations and offences that might be committed there. Well, they're not something that we do, but it sets out what's tolerant—what's tolerable, sorry, and what isn't. So, the fact that we might not have many prosecutions is, for me, not a reason not to say that we shouldn't signify that certain behaviour is or is not acceptable. Clearly, we don't wish to criminalise everything—that would be a nonsense—or to attempt to set the boundaries by almost micromanaging what individuals do and don't do. The criminal law provides a general framework within which to operate, which most people tend to understand. So, awareness is important and it comes back to that point.

Thank you. And then the explanatory memorandum says there is a shortage of registered intermediaries who assist child witnesses during police interview and when giving evidence in court. Is this a potential barrier to implementing this proposed law, and are there any other potential barriers you want to raise?


Yes. Suzy's touched on this mildly, but, in written evidence, you say that you do not consider that the costs of prosecuting cases made possible by the Bill will be of great significance to the Crown Prosecution Service, and you're basing that, from your evidence here today, on the low numbers of prosecutions. So, we've been asked by individuals, and we've had consultation responses from individuals, who've argued that there is no point creating legislation if people are not prosecuted for breaching it. What's your answer to that?

There is a huge body of legislation out there that outlaws certain offences, and I think probably about—. There are over—. From memory—please never hold me to this—but, from memory, there are something like 10,000 criminal offences; we probably prosecute 5 per cent of those in any given year. There are some offences on the statute—. I've been prosecuting for 32 years now; there are some offences that I've never come near and probably never will. But, nonetheless, the fact those offences exist sets out in terms what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. So, we have various defences to do with Acts. I remember seeing some about Antarctic stations and offences that might be committed there. Well, they're not something that we do, but it sets out what's tolerant—what's tolerable, sorry, and what isn't. So, the fact that we might not have many prosecutions is, for me, not a reason not to say that we shouldn't signify that certain behaviour is or is not acceptable. Clearly, we don't wish to criminalise everything—that would be a nonsense—or to attempt to set the boundaries by almost micromanaging what individuals do and don't do. The criminal law provides a general framework within which to operate, which most people tend to understand. So, awareness is important and it comes back to that point.

Thank you. And then the explanatory memorandum says there is a shortage of registered intermediaries who assist child witnesses during police interview and when giving evidence in court. Is this a potential barrier to implementing this proposed law, and are there any other potential barriers you want to raise?

No. It's a potential barrier, but I don't think it is a barrier. There was a shortage of registered intermediaries in Wales, and I know that the Ministry of Justice have taken action to deal with that, and we have had a number of people who are now in a position to act as intermediaries. Now, of course, if they were to decide not to do that anymore, we may have a problem, but, in turn, we would be looking to recruit more people into those positions. So, yes, it has the potential to serve as a barrier, but in practice, I don't think it would be a barrier. I think, particularly given the very low numbers we're talking about, we would be able to manage it. I've got no significant concerns, I have to say.


There is a huge body of legislation out there that outlaws certain offences, and I think probably about—. There are over—. From memory—please never hold me to this—but, from memory, there are something like 10,000 criminal offences; we probably prosecute 5 per cent of those in any given year. There are some offences on the statute—. I've been prosecuting for 32 years now; there are some offences that I've never come near and probably never will. But, nonetheless, the fact those offences exist sets out in terms what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. So, we have various defences to do with Acts. I remember seeing some about Antarctic stations and offences that might be committed there. Well, they're not something that we do, but it sets out what's tolerant—what's tolerable, sorry, and what isn't. So, the fact that we might not have many prosecutions is, for me, not a reason not to say that we shouldn't signify that certain behaviour is or is not acceptable. Clearly, we don't wish to criminalise everything—that would be a nonsense—or to attempt to set the boundaries by almost micromanaging what individuals do and don't do. The criminal law provides a general framework within which to operate, which most people tend to understand. So, awareness is important and it comes back to that point.

Thank you. And then the explanatory memorandum says there is a shortage of registered intermediaries who assist child witnesses during police interview and when giving evidence in court. Is this a potential barrier to implementing this proposed law, and are there any other potential barriers you want to raise?

No. It's a potential barrier, but I don't think it is a barrier. There was a shortage of registered intermediaries in Wales, and I know that the Ministry of Justice have taken action to deal with that, and we have had a number of people who are now in a position to act as intermediaries. Now, of course, if they were to decide not to do that anymore, we may have a problem, but, in turn, we would be looking to recruit more people into those positions. So, yes, it has the potential to serve as a barrier, but in practice, I don't think it would be a barrier. I think, particularly given the very low numbers we're talking about, we would be able to manage it. I've got no significant concerns, I have to say.

Thank you. Well, we've come to the end of our time. Can I thank you for attending, the three of you, and for your answers, which have been fascinating and very clear and most helpful to the committee? You will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy. Thank you again for your time in coming here today. Diolch yn fawr.


Thank you. And then the explanatory memorandum says there is a shortage of registered intermediaries who assist child witnesses during police interview and when giving evidence in court. Is this a potential barrier to implementing this proposed law, and are there any other potential barriers you want to raise?

No. It's a potential barrier, but I don't think it is a barrier. There was a shortage of registered intermediaries in Wales, and I know that the Ministry of Justice have taken action to deal with that, and we have had a number of people who are now in a position to act as intermediaries. Now, of course, if they were to decide not to do that anymore, we may have a problem, but, in turn, we would be looking to recruit more people into those positions. So, yes, it has the potential to serve as a barrier, but in practice, I don't think it would be a barrier. I think, particularly given the very low numbers we're talking about, we would be able to manage it. I've got no significant concerns, I have to say.

Thank you. Well, we've come to the end of our time. Can I thank you for attending, the three of you, and for your answers, which have been fascinating and very clear and most helpful to the committee? You will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy. Thank you again for your time in coming here today. Diolch yn fawr.


No. It's a potential barrier, but I don't think it is a barrier. There was a shortage of registered intermediaries in Wales, and I know that the Ministry of Justice have taken action to deal with that, and we have had a number of people who are now in a position to act as intermediaries. Now, of course, if they were to decide not to do that anymore, we may have a problem, but, in turn, we would be looking to recruit more people into those positions. So, yes, it has the potential to serve as a barrier, but in practice, I don't think it would be a barrier. I think, particularly given the very low numbers we're talking about, we would be able to manage it. I've got no significant concerns, I have to say.

Thank you. Well, we've come to the end of our time. Can I thank you for attending, the three of you, and for your answers, which have been fascinating and very clear and most helpful to the committee? You will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy. Thank you again for your time in coming here today. Diolch yn fawr.

Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from me to the Business Committee requesting an extension on the deadline for the Bill, which has now been agreed. Paper to note 2 is a letter from myself to the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services requesting some further information from CAFCASS Cymru on the Bill. Paper to note 3 is a letter from myself to the Minister for Education regarding Diamond reform implementation ahead of our scrutiny session on 4 July. Are Members happy to note those? Item 4, then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you.


Thank you. Well, we've come to the end of our time. Can I thank you for attending, the three of you, and for your answers, which have been fascinating and very clear and most helpful to the committee? You will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy. Thank you again for your time in coming here today. Diolch yn fawr.

Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from me to the Business Committee requesting an extension on the deadline for the Bill, which has now been agreed. Paper to note 2 is a letter from myself to the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services requesting some further information from CAFCASS Cymru on the Bill. Paper to note 3 is a letter from myself to the Minister for Education regarding Diamond reform implementation ahead of our scrutiny session on 4 July. Are Members happy to note those? Item 4, then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you.


Do you need to change anything on it ? Because otherwise I will already open it.


Unless uh things have suddenly change again.


Unless uh things have suddenly change again.

Uh don't know. Maybe uh you've got new information ,  like uh last time.


Unless uh things have suddenly change again.

Uh don't know. Maybe uh you've got new information ,  like uh last time.

Uh I didn't  No no. I do hot have  Only the same information.


Uh don't know. Maybe uh you've got new information ,  like uh last time.

Uh I didn't  No no. I do hot have  Only the same information.


Uh I didn't  No no. I do hot have  Only the same information.


I believe uh Miss uh Tentel is with us as well , in the control room.


I believe uh Miss uh Tentel is with us as well , in the control room.

Well , that's where the thinking goes on.


Well , that's where the thinking goes on.


Um I have some points I would like to  uh some some issues I would like to point out. Um  first of all , um if you make minutes yourself as well , uh like Sebastian does , um could you put them on the shared folder ? If you do not make minutes , no problem , but it's easy for me to see what you uh wrote down ,


Um I have some points I would like to  uh some some issues I would like to point out. Um  first of all , um if you make minutes yourself as well , uh like Sebastian does , um could you put them on the shared folder ? If you do not make minutes , no problem , but it's easy for me to see what you uh wrote down ,

so I could  uh can uh um use that in the in the report.  Um the second thing , um  I was th uh s thinking to myself , I have this little remote control , and I'm talking to it , but I still need to point to the television , because it works with infrared. That's quite strange.


so I could  uh can uh um use that in the in the report.  Um the second thing , um  I was th uh s thinking to myself , I have this little remote control , and I'm talking to it , but I still need to point to the television , because it works with infrared. That's quite strange.

Okay. We'll come to that later , I g I think.


Okay. We'll come to that later , I g I think.

Um  the agenda for now  uh uh are there any pre-discussion questions ?


Um  the agenda for now  uh uh are there any pre-discussion questions ?


we wi we will have your individual presentations , uh then the decision on the remote control concept , um and uh the closing. Forty minutes in total for this. So um  I think we we can immedis immediately start with the individual presentations , um the progress you've made.


we wi we will have your individual presentations , uh then the decision on the remote control concept , um and uh the closing. Forty minutes in total for this. So um  I think we we can immedis immediately start with the individual presentations , um the progress you've made.

Um I think it might be smart to look at uh Ruud's um information first , because I understood there are some uh significant changes in the market situation.


Um I think it might be smart to look at uh Ruud's um information first , because I understood there are some uh significant changes in the market situation.


Well , findings. Uh  Ease of use is important , but uh innovation is more important , and a fancy look and feel is uh even more important. And uh some fashion watchers have found out that the young target group likes fruit and vegetables in their uh clothes , shoes and furniture ,


Well , findings. Uh  Ease of use is important , but uh innovation is more important , and a fancy look and feel is uh even more important. And uh some fashion watchers have found out that the young target group likes fruit and vegetables in their uh clothes , shoes and furniture ,

and that they want spongy material. Probably watch too much Sponge Bob.


Well , findings. Uh  Ease of use is important , but uh innovation is more important , and a fancy look and feel is uh even more important. And uh some fashion watchers have found out that the young target group likes fruit and vegetables in their uh clothes , shoes and furniture ,

and that they want spongy material. Probably watch too much Sponge Bob.

Uh the older group uh still prefers dark colours. Simple shapes  uh m material. But we  since we are concentrating on uh the younger group


and that they want spongy material. Probably watch too much Sponge Bob.

Uh the older group uh still prefers dark colours. Simple shapes  uh m material. But we  since we are concentrating on uh the younger group


Uh the older group uh still prefers dark colours. Simple shapes  uh m material. But we  since we are concentrating on uh the younger group

uh could you go to the previous slide ? Um because I'm taking minutes


uh could you go to the previous slide ? Um because I'm taking minutes


uh could you go to the previous slide ? Um because I'm taking minutes

Um were the important themes enclose. Yeah  okay. The feel of  to be spongy


uh could you go to the previous slide ? Um because I'm taking minutes

Um were the important themes enclose. Yeah  okay. The feel of  to be spongy

Uh so do you think um when fruit and vegetables are important for clothing and shoes that they are in remote controls also ?


Um were the important themes enclose. Yeah  okay. The feel of  to be spongy

Uh so do you think um when fruit and vegetables are important for clothing and shoes that they are in remote controls also ?

Well , uh one example given was this , so um I assume they just want something colourful. Not uh specifically uh an apple as a remote control or something.


Uh so do you think um when fruit and vegetables are important for clothing and shoes that they are in remote controls also ?

Well , uh one example given was this , so um I assume they just want something colourful. Not uh specifically uh an apple as a remote control or something.


Well , uh one example given was this , so um I assume they just want something colourful. Not uh specifically uh an apple as a remote control or something.


No , uh the younger group likes uh more colourful uh objects.


No , uh the younger group likes uh more colourful uh objects.

Okay. Well then I suggest that the corporate colours are grey and yellow.


Okay. Well then I suggest that the corporate colours are grey and yellow.

But can you can you go back to that slide ? The  uh


But can you can you go back to that slide ? The  uh


no no no. Yes. Okay , and the feel of the material has to be spongy.


no no no. Yes. Okay , and the feel of the material has to be spongy.

Has it something to do with that uh natural feeling also , do you think ?


Has it something to do with that uh natural feeling also , do you think ?

But personally I wouldn't like a sponge as a remote control. But  Maybe soft material or something. But not a real sponge.


Has it something to do with that uh natural feeling also , do you think ?

But personally I wouldn't like a sponge as a remote control. But  Maybe soft material or something. But not a real sponge.

Okay , so so , yeah , it might not be t uh it it shouldn't be too hard. It it  maybe it rubber or or


But personally I wouldn't like a sponge as a remote control. But  Maybe soft material or something. But not a real sponge.

Okay , so so , yeah , it might not be t uh it it shouldn't be too hard. It it  maybe it rubber or or


Okay , so so , yeah , it might not be t uh it it shouldn't be too hard. It it  maybe it rubber or or

Yeah , and like uh the older group likes familiar materials ,


Yeah , and like uh the older group likes familiar materials ,


Yeah , and like uh the older group likes familiar materials ,

but that doesn't mean we should use wood , So


but that doesn't mean we should use wood , So

Well , this this is an example of what they would like. But since we're conten concentrating on uh the younger group , I think we should use soft materials and uh make it colourful or uh like cell phones , exch exchangeable covers.


Well , this this is an example of what they would like. But since we're conten concentrating on uh the younger group , I think we should use soft materials and uh make it colourful or uh like cell phones , exch exchangeable covers.

So we could provide both for the young and the old what they like.


So we could provide both for the young and the old what they like.


So we could provide both for the young and the old what they like.

You could make a few v very colourful ones , and uh a very traditional co cover.


You could make a few v very colourful ones , and uh a very traditional co cover.

Yeah , o o I'm thinking about uh the Bananarama telephone uh  telephone from uh Siemens. The yellow uh rubber telephone.


Yeah , o o I'm thinking about uh the Bananarama telephone uh  telephone from uh Siemens. The yellow uh rubber telephone.


It looks likes a banana.  We have the fruit , we have the colours.  We have the simple design.


I believe it's it's the one the Post-bank uh gave away ,


And the b the light blue and  it's also in yellow.


And the b the light blue and  it's also in yellow.

Now I kn uh  oh , I know , I know. Yes , I I've seen it. I've seen it.


And the b the light blue and  it's also in yellow.

Now I kn uh  oh , I know , I know. Yes , I I've seen it. I've seen it.

You kn you know , Ruud , as well ? About th


Now I kn uh  oh , I know , I know. Yes , I I've seen it. I've seen it.

You kn you know , Ruud , as well ? About th


You kn you know , Ruud , as well ? About th


Okay.  Okay , so the the m uh important findings are uh innovation is more important than ease of use for the  our target group.


Okay.  Okay , so the the m uh important findings are uh innovation is more important than ease of use for the  our target group.

And um colouring is important and and uh soft materials.


And um colouring is important and and uh soft materials.


And um colouring is important and and uh soft materials.

So  So ease of use is important , but technology is twice as important. And what was even more important ?


So  So ease of use is important , but technology is twice as important. And what was even more important ?


So  So ease of use is important , but technology is twice as important. And what was even more important ?

Okay. So that's the most important thing for our customers.


Okay. So that's the most important thing for our customers.


Mm-hmm. Well , I don't ha really have much to add , um because most of things we already said in uh the previous uh discussion. Um


Mm-hmm. Well , I don't ha really have much to add , um because most of things we already said in uh the previous uh discussion. Um

Okay , well it's good to to sum up uh the things we already thought about.


Mm-hmm. Well , I don't ha really have much to add , um because most of things we already said in uh the previous uh discussion. Um

Okay , well it's good to to sum up uh the things we already thought about.

Uh the previous ideas were voice recognition and uh the round button for uh the p channel programming and uh volume. Well , a few interface I uh I found on the internet are are these. These are both with uh with voice recognition , but they're very advanced and very high-tech and  just um , well , a weird um shape.


Okay , well it's good to to sum up uh the things we already thought about.

Uh the previous ideas were voice recognition and uh the round button for uh the p channel programming and uh volume. Well , a few interface I uh I found on the internet are are these. These are both with uh with voice recognition , but they're very advanced and very high-tech and  just um , well , a weird um shape.

So I suggest  I couldn't uh  I had a small uh mock-up uh  sign on the  on  paper.


Uh the previous ideas were voice recognition and uh the round button for uh the p channel programming and uh volume. Well , a few interface I uh I found on the internet are are these. These are both with uh with voice recognition , but they're very advanced and very high-tech and  just um , well , a weird um shape.

So I suggest  I couldn't uh  I had a small uh mock-up uh  sign on the  on  paper.

But it didn't work. My pen didn't load um the information. So I made a really simple  f uh a shape on uh  in um PowerPoint. But we could make uh a round uh an oval uh um remote control. Uh yellow.


So I suggest  I couldn't uh  I had a small uh mock-up uh  sign on the  on  paper.

But it didn't work. My pen didn't load um the information. So I made a really simple  f uh a shape on uh  in um PowerPoint. But we could make uh a round uh an oval uh um remote control. Uh yellow.

Mm-hmm. But it's it's kind of uh it's kind of o organic , so that's very good.


But it didn't work. My pen didn't load um the information. So I made a really simple  f uh a shape on uh  in um PowerPoint. But we could make uh a round uh an oval uh um remote control. Uh yellow.

Mm-hmm. But it's it's kind of uh it's kind of o organic , so that's very good.


Mm-hmm. But it's it's kind of uh it's kind of o organic , so that's very good.

And what I'm thinking about , maybe um we should make very light but um uh a grip um  I mean this is how you hold a remote control.


And what I'm thinking about , maybe um we should make very light but um uh a grip um  I mean this is how you hold a remote control.


And what I'm thinking about , maybe um we should make very light but um uh a grip um  I mean this is how you hold a remote control.

Um it shouldn't be too uh glatt , too slippery ,


Um it shouldn't be too uh glatt , too slippery ,


Um it shouldn't be too uh glatt , too slippery ,

But if you have something like uh the Siemens phone , it's rubber.


But if you have something like uh the Siemens phone , it's rubber.