Yep , and um the user interface design , so this is where the trendy stuff comes in. And you'll be evaluating the product. Um , Poppy and Tara will have to work together , using modelling clay.

And , um , your personal coach will give you the rest of the information of what needs to happen.


Yep , and um the user interface design , so this is where the trendy stuff comes in. And you'll be evaluating the product. Um , Poppy and Tara will have to work together , using modelling clay.

And , um , your personal coach will give you the rest of the information of what needs to happen.

Alright. So , anyone else have something to say ?


And , um , your personal coach will give you the rest of the information of what needs to happen.

Alright. So , anyone else have something to say ?

Um , I just have one question about the whole fruit and vegetable aspect.


Alright. So , anyone else have something to say ?

Um , I just have one question about the whole fruit and vegetable aspect.


Um , I just have one question about the whole fruit and vegetable aspect.

Are we  seeing as that was the most popular thing that came up out of your market research , I thi I think we should keep to that rather than moving to animals or something , because even if that may not seem obvious to us , if that's what the surveys brought out , I think that we should probably go along with that.


Are we  seeing as that was the most popular thing that came up out of your market research , I thi I think we should keep to that rather than moving to animals or something , because even if that may not seem obvious to us , if that's what the surveys brought out , I think that we should probably go along with that.


Are we  seeing as that was the most popular thing that came up out of your market research , I thi I think we should keep to that rather than moving to animals or something , because even if that may not seem obvious to us , if that's what the surveys brought out , I think that we should probably go along with that.

Um , so I suppose that'll come out in our dev design development. But you're happy to go ahead with the fruit and veg ?


Um , so I suppose that'll come out in our dev design development. But you're happy to go ahead with the fruit and veg ?

Now do you guys need  want an idea of how many uh  are you gonna come up with casing ideas ?


Now do you guys need  want an idea of how many uh  are you gonna come up with casing ideas ?


What I  What I was thinking  what do yous think of this ? Um , having the numbers kind of like , not a bunch of grapes , but you know like purple and kind of in a triangle.


What I  What I was thinking  what do yous think of this ? Um , having the numbers kind of like , not a bunch of grapes , but you know like purple and kind of in a triangle.

Like grapes. Like that's kind of fruity or something.


What I  What I was thinking  what do yous think of this ? Um , having the numbers kind of like , not a bunch of grapes , but you know like purple and kind of in a triangle.

Like grapes. Like that's kind of fruity or something.

Yeah you can have some fun with the buttons , it's true.


Like grapes. Like that's kind of fruity or something.

Yeah you can have some fun with the buttons , it's true.


Yeah you can have some fun with the buttons , it's true.

We can have a look at those ideas , yeah.


We can have a look at those ideas , yeah.


We can have a look at those ideas , yeah.

I guess what you i ideally you'd kind of think of age markets as well.


I guess what you i ideally you'd kind of think of age markets as well.


I guess what you i ideally you'd kind of think of age markets as well.

So it's a something that will , you know , appeal to the fifteen to twenty five year olds. Something that your granny would want on her remote control.


So it's a something that will , you know , appeal to the fifteen to twenty five year olds. Something that your granny would want on her remote control.

Um , and international tastes as well , so


Um , and international tastes as well , so

Tricky.  A lot of things to consider. Hm.


Tricky.  A lot of things to consider. Hm.


'Kay we'll stick to the fruit and veggie theme then.


'Kay we'll stick to the fruit and veggie theme then.

Alright. And , um , we'll reconvene in thirty minutes.


Alright. And , um , we'll reconvene in thirty minutes.


I'll see you later.  Oh , what did I just do. Okay.


So we come again for the the second meeting.

Uh for the aim of this meeting now is to to make presentation about uh the work for each one.


Uh for the aim of this meeting now is to to make presentation about uh the work for each one.

And  take the the decision about the the design and the functionality of the the remote control.


Uh for the aim of this meeting now is to to make presentation about uh the work for each one.

And  take the the decision about the the design and the functionality of the the remote control.

And we have  think I got a new project requirement.


And  take the the decision about the the design and the functionality of the the remote control.

And we have  think I got a new project requirement.


And we have  think I got a new project requirement.

So I think uh teletext becomes outdated. So the popularity of the  since the popularity of the internet ,


So I think uh teletext becomes outdated. So the popularity of the  since the popularity of the internet ,

and I think we don't need lighting adaptive , so the remote control should be only used for the the television. And of course we should have our image  in the in the design. So , let's start with the the industrial designer.


and I think we don't need lighting adaptive , so the remote control should be only used for the the television. And of course we should have our image  in the in the design. So , let's start with the the industrial designer.

Or y you can use the whiteboard if you want.


and I think we don't need lighting adaptive , so the remote control should be only used for the the television. And of course we should have our image  in the in the design. So , let's start with the the industrial designer.

Or y you can use the whiteboard if you want.

So uh  Well I have a PowerPoint pr presentation stored in my in my personal folder


Or y you can use the whiteboard if you want.

So uh  Well I have a PowerPoint pr presentation stored in my in my personal folder


Or y you can use the whiteboard if you want.

So uh  Well I have a PowerPoint pr presentation stored in my in my personal folder

so I I I think you can reach it from here.


So uh  Well I have a PowerPoint pr presentation stored in my in my personal folder

so I I I think you can reach it from here.


so I I I think you can reach it from here.


Right , so um I will talk about the the w working design and


And um well I I will present my my first idea on how to build the  our new remote control for television.


And um well I I will present my my first idea on how to build the  our new remote control for television.

So uh can you go one page down , please. So I think the first things to do is to define the hardware components neededs to achieve uh what we want to do.


And um well I I will present my my first idea on how to build the  our new remote control for television.

So uh can you go one page down , please. So I think the first things to do is to define the hardware components neededs to achieve uh what we want to do.

So uh mm I'm thin uh  I think uh I I'll do a survey about what is uh what is available on the market and what what is the the cheapest possible  things we hav we can use. Then uh I will try with the technical team to to build a prototype and to see uh with uh h how this little box  would uh look look like.


And um well I I will present my my first idea on how to build the  our new remote control for television.

So uh can you go one page down , please. So I think the first things to do is to define the hardware components neededs to achieve uh what we want to do.

So uh mm I'm thin uh  I think uh I I'll do a survey about what is uh what is available on the market and what what is the the cheapest possible  things we hav we can use. Then uh I will try with the technical team to to build a prototype and to see uh with uh h how this little box  would uh look look like.

And how an and we can uh start troubleshooting first uh com communication problems or things like that.


So uh can you go one page down , please. So I think the first things to do is to define the hardware components neededs to achieve uh what we want to do.

So uh mm I'm thin uh  I think uh I I'll do a survey about what is uh what is available on the market and what what is the the cheapest possible  things we hav we can use. Then uh I will try with the technical team to to build a prototype and to see uh with uh h how this little box  would uh look look like.

And how an and we can uh start troubleshooting first uh com communication problems or things like that.

And when we are ready with this first prototype I I think we can add some software functionalities on a programmable chip like browsing by content or um things like that. Okay so can you go down uh  So , wha what I think  for now  is  we don't want to have a remote control w which is wired


So uh mm I'm thin uh  I think uh I I'll do a survey about what is uh what is available on the market and what what is the the cheapest possible  things we hav we can use. Then uh I will try with the technical team to to build a prototype and to see uh with uh h how this little box  would uh look look like.

And how an and we can uh start troubleshooting first uh com communication problems or things like that.

And when we are ready with this first prototype I I think we can add some software functionalities on a programmable chip like browsing by content or um things like that. Okay so can you go down uh  So , wha what I think  for now  is  we don't want to have a remote control w which is wired

so uh I think we u we can use a battery for the . Then two programmable chips for both software functionalities and communication. And the communication with the T_V_ set is uh made through uh infrared communication So uh this is the  the schema of the  o of the future uh remote controls


And how an and we can uh start troubleshooting first uh com communication problems or things like that.

And when we are ready with this first prototype I I think we can add some software functionalities on a programmable chip like browsing by content or um things like that. Okay so can you go down uh  So , wha what I think  for now  is  we don't want to have a remote control w which is wired

so uh I think we u we can use a battery for the . Then two programmable chips for both software functionalities and communication. And the communication with the T_V_ set is uh made through uh infrared communication So uh this is the  the schema of the  o of the future uh remote controls


And when we are ready with this first prototype I I think we can add some software functionalities on a programmable chip like browsing by content or um things like that. Okay so can you go down uh  So , wha what I think  for now  is  we don't want to have a remote control w which is wired

so uh I think we u we can use a battery for the . Then two programmable chips for both software functionalities and communication. And the communication with the T_V_ set is uh made through uh infrared communication So uh this is the  the schema of the  o of the future uh remote controls


so uh I think we u we can use a battery for the . Then two programmable chips for both software functionalities and communication. And the communication with the T_V_ set is uh made through uh infrared communication So uh this is the  the schema of the  o of the future uh remote controls

so uh you can you can see the components , uh battery and uh the two chips goes to the infrared uh connection to the T_V_ set.


so uh you can you can see the components , uh battery and uh the two chips goes to the infrared uh connection to the T_V_ set.


so uh you can you can see the components , uh battery and uh the two chips goes to the infrared uh connection to the T_V_ set.

What is the other chip for ? The one on top.


What is the other chip for ? The one on top.

The one on top is for the um  well the functionali the functionalities


What is the other chip for ? The one on top.

The one on top is for the um  well the functionali the functionalities

and the the th red um  sorry the green one is is to  well , putting things together , um f transform the data into uh qu into the format to to  uh to communicate with the T_V_ set.


The one on top is for the um  well the functionali the functionalities

and the the th red um  sorry the green one is is to  well , putting things together , um f transform the data into uh qu into the format to to  uh to communicate with the T_V_ set.


and the the th red um  sorry the green one is is to  well , putting things together , um f transform the data into uh qu into the format to to  uh to communicate with the T_V_ set.

And , that's it. I think we should use a F_P_G_A_ for  for the functionalities which is easy to to t


And , that's it. I think we should use a F_P_G_A_ for  for the functionalities which is easy to to t

It's field programmable uh something array.


It's field programmable uh something array.


It's field programmable uh something array.

It's a field programmable gateway arrays.


It's a field programmable gateway arrays.

So why's it  how is it different from the Bluetooth ?


It's a field programmable gateway arrays.

So why's it  how is it different from the Bluetooth ?

Well , uh a F_P_G_A_ is just a chip you can uh you can  pr programme it uh wi with wh whatever you want.


So why's it  how is it different from the Bluetooth ?

Well , uh a F_P_G_A_ is just a chip you can uh you can  pr programme it uh wi with wh whatever you want.


Well , uh a F_P_G_A_ is just a chip you can uh you can  pr programme it uh wi with wh whatever you want.


And uh well the Bluetooth chip is just responsible to uh make the communication uh between uh the two devices.


And uh well the Bluetooth chip is just responsible to uh make the communication uh between uh the two devices.

Yeah.  Uh  So this are the  they have to work together ? Or ? Do they have to work together or two separate choice


And uh well the Bluetooth chip is just responsible to uh make the communication uh between uh the two devices.

Yeah.  Uh  So this are the  they have to work together ? Or ? Do they have to work together or two separate choice

No. Well , th the F_P_G_A_ will produce the the data to send.


Yeah.  Uh  So this are the  they have to work together ? Or ? Do they have to work together or two separate choice

No. Well , th the F_P_G_A_ will produce the the data to send.

Or it's something like  isn't hardware the first one ? And the second one is for the software.


No. Well , th the F_P_G_A_ will produce the the data to send.

Or it's something like  isn't hardware the first one ? And the second one is for the software.


Or it's something like  isn't hardware the first one ? And the second one is for the software.


So you can control  if you want , right ?


So you can control  if you want , right ?

Alright and that's it for the working design.


Alright and that's it for the working design.


Alright and that's it for the working design.

Okay , and how about the battery power ? Uh you mean that battery would be somewhere there and the remote contro the power to the battery comes through infrared ?


Okay , and how about the battery power ? Uh you mean that battery would be somewhere there and the remote contro the power to the battery comes through infrared ?

Uh no no no no , I think uh we have uh to to uh have uh embedded uh b batteries in in the


Uh no no no no , I think uh we have uh to to uh have uh embedded uh b batteries in in the


And uh I I don't think it will need um  very uh much power to make it run , so


And uh I I don't think it will need um  very uh much power to make it run , so

Mm. You can put it on the charger when uh you when you don't need to use it.


Mm. You can put it on the charger when uh you when you don't need to use it.


Having a charger rather than putting the battery cells always.


Having a charger rather than putting the battery cells always.

People don't like it to have to buy the batteries when they run out.


People don't like it to have to buy the batteries when they run out.


Because you are using because you are using Bluetooth , if some people have P_D_A_ they can use their P_D_A_ to control the T_V_ if they want to , right ?


Because you are using because you are using Bluetooth , if some people have P_D_A_ they can use their P_D_A_ to control the T_V_ if they want to , right ?

Also , but but  I I I think uh the the goal is to sell our remote  control.


Also , but but  I I I think uh the the goal is to sell our remote  control.


Mm. Oh we have  so let's move to to user interface design .


Mm. Oh we have  so let's move to to user interface design .

three. Yeah.  So  So I'm working on the technical functions design.  can you show the next slide. So the the purpose is to to find uh the important questions to ask is what effect should the apparatus have. So  so I found on a webs on the internet


three. Yeah.  So  So I'm working on the technical functions design.  can you show the next slide. So the the purpose is to to find uh the important questions to ask is what effect should the apparatus have. So  so I found on a webs on the internet


and uh and I found that uh the function of remote control is to send messages to television set.


and uh and I found that uh the function of remote control is to send messages to television set.

For example switch on , switch off , switch the next channel and so on and so on.


and uh and I found that uh the function of remote control is to send messages to television set.

For example switch on , switch off , switch the next channel and so on and so on.

So I found two very good prototypes for  for this interface from our competitors


For example switch on , switch off , switch the next channel and so on and so on.

So I found two very good prototypes for  for this interface from our competitors


So I found two very good prototypes for  for this interface from our competitors

Yeah , yeah , yeah. Ours is a bit uh different. So these are two example. One is from   the other one is from , yeah , uh engineering centr yeah.


Yeah , yeah , yeah. Ours is a bit uh different. So these are two example. One is from   the other one is from , yeah , uh engineering centr yeah.


Yeah , yeah , yeah. Ours is a bit uh different. So these are two example. One is from   the other one is from , yeah , uh engineering centr yeah.

This is the most competing prototypes I've found .


Yeah , yeah , yeah. Ours is a bit uh different. So these are two example. One is from   the other one is from , yeah , uh engineering centr yeah.

This is the most competing prototypes I've found .

But then uh loo but then I found if you look at  you see on the left one there are too many buttons


This is the most competing prototypes I've found .

But then uh loo but then I found if you look at  you see on the left one there are too many buttons


This is the most competing prototypes I've found .

But then uh loo but then I found if you look at  you see on the left one there are too many buttons

Yeah. O on the right I tried to play with  the problem is that uh if I have hundred channels I have uh I have to choo press the other button to choose the hundred channels and I have to compose the number


But then uh loo but then I found if you look at  you see on the left one there are too many buttons

Yeah. O on the right I tried to play with  the problem is that uh if I have hundred channels I have uh I have to choo press the other button to choose the hundred channels and I have to compose the number


Yeah. O on the right I tried to play with  the problem is that uh if I have hundred channels I have uh I have to choo press the other button to choose the hundred channels and I have to compose the number


So you  so you move to the next the next one.


So you  so you move to the next the next one.

Yeah , so I talk about the problem. And then I I look at the user manual they are a hundred pages thick , so we don't want that.


Yeah , so I talk about the problem. And then I I look at the user manual they are a hundred pages thick , so we don't want that.

So I propose the easy to use uh prototype. You can navigate on T_V_ screen and we can  the user's preference and we need to have the T_V_ connected to internet so we end  in order to access the T_V_ programmes by X_M_L_ and we need some  to do some preprocessing. From the technical aspect , the processing should be done on the T_V_ set than on the  on the remote controller , right ?


Yeah , so I talk about the problem. And then I I look at the user manual they are a hundred pages thick , so we don't want that.

So I propose the easy to use uh prototype. You can navigate on T_V_ screen and we can  the user's preference and we need to have the T_V_ connected to internet so we end  in order to access the T_V_ programmes by X_M_L_ and we need some  to do some preprocessing. From the technical aspect , the processing should be done on the T_V_ set than on the  on the remote controller , right ?

And then we  the speech recognition as uh Harry says we may just put in  we may K_I_V_.


So I propose the easy to use uh prototype. You can navigate on T_V_ screen and we can  the user's preference and we need to have the T_V_ connected to internet so we end  in order to access the T_V_ programmes by X_M_L_ and we need some  to do some preprocessing. From the technical aspect , the processing should be done on the T_V_ set than on the  on the remote controller , right ?

And then we  the speech recognition as uh Harry says we may just put in  we may K_I_V_.

What do you mean by the pa pa processing will be done on the T_V_


So I propose the easy to use uh prototype. You can navigate on T_V_ screen and we can  the user's preference and we need to have the T_V_ connected to internet so we end  in order to access the T_V_ programmes by X_M_L_ and we need some  to do some preprocessing. From the technical aspect , the processing should be done on the T_V_ set than on the  on the remote controller , right ?

And then we  the speech recognition as uh Harry says we may just put in  we may K_I_V_.

What do you mean by the pa pa processing will be done on the T_V_

Yeah , all the processing is done  the T_V_ is a compu has some processing power the


And then we  the speech recognition as uh Harry says we may just put in  we may K_I_V_.

What do you mean by the pa pa processing will be done on the T_V_

Yeah , all the processing is done  the T_V_ is a compu has some processing power the


What do you mean by the pa pa processing will be done on the T_V_

Yeah , all the processing is done  the T_V_ is a compu has some processing power the


Yeah , all the processing is done  the T_V_ is a compu has some processing power the

So we should have specific T_V_ ? Or ? We can use this.


So we should have specific T_V_ ? Or ? We can use this.


So we should have specific T_V_ ? Or ? We can use this.

We have to sell a T_V_ with the remote control too.


We have to sell a T_V_ with the remote control too.

Yeah because   are you just wondering what controller  okay.


We have to sell a T_V_ with the remote control too.

Yeah because   are you just wondering what controller  okay.

Yeah , I think so. J j just the remote control.


Yeah because   are you just wondering what controller  okay.

Yeah , I think so. J j just the remote control.


Yeah because   are you just wondering what controller  okay.

Yeah , I think so. J j just the remote control.

I think there there is there is al there there is a a technology like show view who is already available on most of the T_V_ set on recorders or thing like that


Yeah , I think so. J j just the remote control.

I think there there is there is al there there is a a technology like show view who is already available on most of the T_V_ set on recorders or thing like that


I think there there is there is al there there is a a technology like show view who is already available on most of the T_V_ set on recorders or thing like that

and we can try t to get this information on to the remote control to to do the processing on the remote control because


and we can try t to get this information on to the remote control to to do the processing on the remote control because


So i the processing on on the remote controller


So i the processing on on the remote controller

so it can u be used in any T_V_ , any conventional T_V_ sets ?


so it can u be used in any T_V_ , any conventional T_V_ sets ?


N yeah , that's all. The next one ? So I come up with a simple design , just keep the v navigation buttons.


N yeah , that's all. The next one ? So I come up with a simple design , just keep the v navigation buttons.

We d we don't we we don't need really much buttons to  i if we have a screen to navigate on on the T_V_ so uh


We d we don't we we don't need really much buttons to  i if we have a screen to navigate on on the T_V_ so uh


We d we don't we we don't need really much buttons to  i if we have a screen to navigate on on the T_V_ so uh

Well , f four five buttons , it's sufficient.


Well , f four five buttons , it's sufficient.


Oh , but you have a catch there , um assume that um if you want to go to  if you are watching channel two and if you want to go to channel ninety nine , then .


Oh , but you have a catch there , um assume that um if you want to go to  if you are watching channel two and if you want to go to channel ninety nine , then .

Well , then y you you go to the main menu and uh you have uh go to channel


Well , then y you you go to the main menu and uh you have uh go to channel

Mm. No , because you choose by channel , so  you choose by T_V_ program


Mm. No , because you choose by channel , so  you choose by T_V_ program


so you don't have hundred channels to choose from. If you go by channel , you don't have to do that.


so you don't have hundred channels to choose from. If you go by channel , you don't have to do that.

but uh I I think i i  if you if you want to to make uh  well a a big jump   but uh well you you have to to have a a a device when you could you could


but uh I I think i i  if you if you want to to make uh  well a a big jump   but uh well you you have to to have a a a device when you could you could


Well , not a mouse but uh something that that says more clearly that uh right , left , up , down ,


Well , not a mouse but uh something that that says more clearly that uh right , left , up , down ,

well , the to have the ability to to to write something to the navigator , maybe directly , or


well , the to have the ability to to to write something to the navigator , maybe directly , or


we can think of buttons like in the telephone to send messages or things like that.


Yeah. So it'll beep if you wanna find it


Yeah. So it'll beep if you wanna find it

too small that it goes under the sofa and we can't find it.


Yeah. So it'll beep if you wanna find it

too small that it goes under the sofa and we can't find it.

you just uh shout  y h just  it just has to re respond to you when you look for the device.


too small that it goes under the sofa and we can't find it.

you just uh shout  y h just  it just has to re respond to you when you look for the device.


you just uh shout  y h just  it just has to re respond to you when you look for the device.


Yeah , that's right. Yeah , that's right.


Yeah , that's right. Yeah , that's right.

Okay , after having the inputs from  industrial design and user interface , I think most of the points which I want to are already covered here.


Okay , after having the inputs from  industrial design and user interface , I think most of the points which I want to are already covered here.


Okay , after having the inputs from  industrial design and user interface , I think most of the points which I want to are already covered here.

And to find the most interesting features what the users would be interested , then what we have done is we have put a feedback forms in all the magazines , and the users send the feedbacks , and based on that  These are the findings which we got and  yeah adding of a speech interface is always good for a T_V_ remote but the technology  We already know that  as discussed earlier


Okay , after having the inputs from  industrial design and user interface , I think most of the points which I want to are already covered here.

And to find the most interesting features what the users would be interested , then what we have done is we have put a feedback forms in all the magazines , and the users send the feedbacks , and based on that  These are the findings which we got and  yeah adding of a speech interface is always good for a T_V_ remote but the technology  We already know that  as discussed earlier

Well I I think it will be a , yes , a bit complicated to um make a speech recognisers runs on the small uh ts


And to find the most interesting features what the users would be interested , then what we have done is we have put a feedback forms in all the magazines , and the users send the feedbacks , and based on that  These are the findings which we got and  yeah adding of a speech interface is always good for a T_V_ remote but the technology  We already know that  as discussed earlier

Well I I think it will be a , yes , a bit complicated to um make a speech recognisers runs on the small uh ts


And to find the most interesting features what the users would be interested , then what we have done is we have put a feedback forms in all the magazines , and the users send the feedbacks , and based on that  These are the findings which we got and  yeah adding of a speech interface is always good for a T_V_ remote but the technology  We already know that  as discussed earlier

Well I I think it will be a , yes , a bit complicated to um make a speech recognisers runs on the small uh ts

I-  mm. But I think if you  to recognise numbers it's a well-studied problem. I if you just recognise uh numbers is a limited  you have limited vocabulary


Well I I think it will be a , yes , a bit complicated to um make a speech recognisers runs on the small uh ts

I-  mm. But I think if you  to recognise numbers it's a well-studied problem. I if you just recognise uh numbers is a limited  you have limited vocabulary

Oh we can put an limited vocabulary as in the mobile phones.


I-  mm. But I think if you  to recognise numbers it's a well-studied problem. I if you just recognise uh numbers is a limited  you have limited vocabulary

Oh we can put an limited vocabulary as in the mobile phones.


Oh we can put an limited vocabulary as in the mobile phones.


And this can allow to choose the the program , for instance without uh adding uh buttons


And this can allow to choose the the program , for instance without uh adding uh buttons

it's not going to take much space also. It's going to be very slim.


it's not going to take much space also. It's going to be very slim.


it's not going to take much space also. It's going to be very slim.

And next one was the size of the remote control. It has to be of course a very slim and small one. And of course most of the people are interested in if it's less expensive ,


And next one was the size of the remote control. It has to be of course a very slim and small one. And of course most of the people are interested in if it's less expensive ,


And next one was the size of the remote control. It has to be of course a very slim and small one. And of course most of the people are interested in if it's less expensive ,

so this is an important criteria here is


so this is an important criteria here is


so this is an important criteria here is

But do you think what they sug suggested s possibility .


But do you think what they sug suggested s possibility .


I no  I I think that uh i if we go for quality people may tolerate for high quality and of course comes with uh reasonable cost.


I no  I I think that uh i if we go for quality people may tolerate for high quality and of course comes with uh reasonable cost.

Maybe not less , but they may be willing to pay little bit more for comfort ,


I no  I I think that uh i if we go for quality people may tolerate for high quality and of course comes with uh reasonable cost.

Maybe not less , but they may be willing to pay little bit more for comfort ,

Little bit more if it's with extra features.


Maybe not less , but they may be willing to pay little bit more for comfort ,

Little bit more if it's with extra features.


Little bit more if it's with extra features.


Yeah , s s speech is a important extra feature I think


I mean , for a lazy guys they could say nine and the nine channel comes.


I mean , for a lazy guys they could say nine and the nine channel comes.

Or they say movie name  or I don't go for movie names but only for the numbers on the channel , or volume up , volume down , brightness , contrast.


Or they say movie name  or I don't go for movie names but only for the numbers on the channel , or volume up , volume down , brightness , contrast.


So , I think this should be a good idea , to put this features. And the fourth one was the teletext in various languages.


So , I think this should be a good idea , to put this features. And the fourth one was the teletext in various languages.

we we just have to find a mean how to to add a m a a a microphone or uh well  yes a microphone into the the remote control , so


we we just have to find a mean how to to add a m a a a microphone or uh well  yes a microphone into the the remote control , so


We can integrate small microphone in the remote


Yeah as discussed in the earlier meeting , but  I think uh not much people are really interested in this point if it's not really required.


Yeah as discussed in the earlier meeting , but  I think uh not much people are really interested in this point if it's not really required.

According to the re to the new requirements I think we don't need that. Yeah.


Yeah as discussed in the earlier meeting , but  I think uh not much people are really interested in this point if it's not really required.

According to the re to the new requirements I think we don't need that. Yeah.

It is interesting but we are only concerned with the remote controller.


According to the re to the new requirements I think we don't need that. Yeah.

It is interesting but we are only concerned with the remote controller.

So you need s special T_V_ sets to do that ? Or it's it's done via this remote controller ? It's very complex.


It is interesting but we are only concerned with the remote controller.

So you need s special T_V_ sets to do that ? Or it's it's done via this remote controller ? It's very complex.


So you need s special T_V_ sets to do that ? Or it's it's done via this remote controller ? It's very complex.


So you need s special T_V_ sets to do that ? Or it's it's done via this remote controller ? It's very complex.

I mean  yeah , it's for the um industrial design and users interface designers to decide if it's going to be working or not.


I mean  yeah , it's for the um industrial design and users interface designers to decide if it's going to be working or not.


I mean  yeah , it's for the um industrial design and users interface designers to decide if it's going to be working or not.

For our next product , our new T_V_ set with uh automatical uh sound adjustment  light


For our next product , our new T_V_ set with uh automatical uh sound adjustment  light

Yeah , then we can conclude that. Yeah. Yeah , but it's quite possible but maybe not in this project.


For our next product , our new T_V_ set with uh automatical uh sound adjustment  light

Yeah , then we can conclude that. Yeah. Yeah , but it's quite possible but maybe not in this project.

So we have  I think we have s still we have couple of minutes. Mm-mm.  So any things to to discuss ? Or any suggestions ?


Yeah , then we can conclude that. Yeah. Yeah , but it's quite possible but maybe not in this project.

So we have  I think we have s still we have couple of minutes. Mm-mm.  So any things to to discuss ? Or any suggestions ?

I think as I discussed th that four points would be good for um marketing.


Yeah , then we can conclude that. Yeah. Yeah , but it's quite possible but maybe not in this project.

So we have  I think we have s still we have couple of minutes. Mm-mm.  So any things to to discuss ? Or any suggestions ?

I think as I discussed th that four points would be good for um marketing.

The speech interface and uh less uh reasonable uh cost.


So we have  I think we have s still we have couple of minutes. Mm-mm.  So any things to to discuss ? Or any suggestions ?

I think as I discussed th that four points would be good for um marketing.

The speech interface and uh less uh reasonable uh cost.


I think as I discussed th that four points would be good for um marketing.

The speech interface and uh less uh reasonable uh cost.


The speech interface and uh less uh reasonable uh cost.


and the teletext. And regarding the teletext uh these are the subtitl these are the text information which you got on the televisions.


and the teletext. And regarding the teletext uh these are the subtitl these are the text information which you got on the televisions.

If you are watching an foreign movie , you get  subtitles sometimes.


If you are watching an foreign movie , you get  subtitles sometimes.

And uh if you are a French guy watching an English movie you would like to have it in French.


And uh if you are a French guy watching an English movie you would like to have it in French.

And if I am a German then I would like to have the  my options in German.


And uh if you are a French guy watching an English movie you would like to have it in French.

And if I am a German then I would like to have the  my options in German.

So , the remote  it should have some  it should give me some flexibility of choosing the ch languages.


And if I am a German then I would like to have the  my options in German.

So , the remote  it should have some  it should give me some flexibility of choosing the ch languages.


So , the remote  it should have some  it should give me some flexibility of choosing the ch languages.

Yeah , but well what about the the new project's requirement ? I I I think we should give up with teletext , no ?


Yeah , but well what about the the new project's requirement ? I I I think we should give up with teletext , no ?


Yeah , but well what about the the new project's requirement ? I I I think we should give up with teletext , no ?

Yes. Well , so maybe we we can j we can already think uh  about a way to to access the internet via the television.


Yes. Well , so maybe we we can j we can already think uh  about a way to to access the internet via the television.


Yes. Well , so maybe we we can j we can already think uh  about a way to to access the internet via the television.

Using the T_V_ to access the internet ? Or what ? I didn't quite understand


Using the T_V_ to access the internet ? Or what ? I didn't quite understand

Yeah , but uh we can think that in a few years there will be T_V_ set that can access the internet.


Yeah , but uh we can think that in a few years there will be T_V_ set that can access the internet.

So it's a good idea if i i if we i if if we uh think about how to to to build up our remote uh control w with this functionality in a  w which will c which will come in a few years.


So it's a good idea if i i if we i if if we uh think about how to to to build up our remote uh control w with this functionality in a  w which will c which will come in a few years.


So it's a good idea if i i if we i if if we uh think about how to to to build up our remote uh control w with this functionality in a  w which will c which will come in a few years.

So if we already have it in our remote control


So it's a good idea if i i if we i if if we uh think about how to to to build up our remote uh control w with this functionality in a  w which will c which will come in a few years.

So if we already have it in our remote control

So you have to anticipate the the future ?


So if we already have it in our remote control

So you have to anticipate the the future ?


So if we already have it in our remote control

So you have to anticipate the the future ?

Yeah.  The future demand , market demand.


So you have to anticipate the the future ?

Yeah.  The future demand , market demand.


Yeah.  The future demand , market demand.


Yeah.  The future demand , market demand.

well , not not to implement it , but to  well , to find a way to to add to add this functionality in a  yeah , in an in an easy manner , if is possible.


well , not not to implement it , but to  well , to find a way to to add to add this functionality in a  yeah , in an in an easy manner , if is possible.


well , not not to implement it , but to  well , to find a way to to add to add this functionality in a  yeah , in an in an easy manner , if is possible.

Alright. Yeah. Because all the T_V_ sets will be digital , right. All the programmes , everything will be in digital than analog. Th the system will change and we have to anticipate for those change.


Alright. Yeah. Because all the T_V_ sets will be digital , right. All the programmes , everything will be in digital than analog. Th the system will change and we have to anticipate for those change.


Okay. So let's go for the the lunch break , and we will meet after.


Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. We've received no apologies for absence. Can I ask if there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay, thank you. Item 2 this morning is the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill: Stage 2 proceedings. I'm pleased to welcome Julie Morgan AM, Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services; Karen Cornish, deputy director, children and families division at Welsh Government; and Emma Gammon, lawyer for Welsh Government. Thank you for attending this morning and welcome to the committee. I'm just going to run through the procedures that we're going to follow now. As I said, the purpose of the meeting is to undertake Stage 2 proceedings on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. For these proceedings, Members should have copies of the marshalled list of amendments, the groupings of the amendments for debate and the voting order for the amendments. The marshalled list of amendments is the list of all amendments tabled, marshalled into the order in which the sections appear in the Bill. The order in which we consider amendments will be the default order—that is, sections 1 to 3 and the long title. You will see from the groupings list that amendments have been grouped to facilitate debate. However, the order in which they're called and moved for decision is dictated by the marshalled list. Members will, therefore, need to follow the two papers, although I will advise Members when I call them whether they're being called to speak in the debate or to move their amendments for a decision. There will be one debate on each group of amendments. Members who wish to speak in a particular group should indicate to me in the usual way. I will call the Deputy Minister to speak on each group. For the record, in accordance with the convention agreed by the Business Committee, as Chair I will move amendments in the name of the Deputy Minister. For expediency, I will assume that the Deputy Minister wishes me to move all of her amendments, and I will do so at the appropriate place in the marshalled list. Deputy Minister, if you do not want a particular amendment to be moved, please indicate to me at the relevant point in proceedings. In line with our usual practice, legal advisers to the committee and the Deputy Minister are not expected to provide advice on the record. If Members wish to seek legal advice during proceedings, please do so by passing a note to the legal adviser and, if necessary, we can adjourn. My intention is to try to dispose of all amendments during today's meeting. I will call a short break in proceedings at an appropriate time, if necessary. Okay, thank you. So, we will proceed, then, to group 1, which is the duty to promote public awareness. The lead amendment in the group is amendment 1 in the name of the Deputy Minister. I move amendment 1 in the Deputy Minister's name and call on the Deputy Minister to speak to her amendment and the other amendments in this group.

Thank you very much, Chair. My amendments 1 and 4 will place a duty on Welsh Ministers to provide information and increase awareness about the change in the law to ensure that the public are made aware of how the law will change as a result of the defence of reasonable punishment being abolished and that physical punishment would be prohibited once the Act commences. I tabled these amendments in response to this committee's recommendation—this was a recommendation from this committee in the Stage 1 report, so I have responded to that. I've already made a commitment to a high-intensity awareness-raising campaign over approximately six years from Royal Assent, should the Bill be passed. I've considered amendments 1A to 1E, which have been tabled by Janet Finch-Saunders, and which relate to the duty to raise awareness. Amendment 1A introduces a reference to public understanding. We don't think, actually, that this adds anything to the Government amendment, which already mentions awareness. It makes the awareness-raising duty open-ended with no time limit, which is not necessary. By commencement, messaging around the change in the law will be embedded. The awareness-raising campaign will continue for a number of years. Therefore, an ongoing duty referring specifically to the law change would not be required. I understand, of course, that the awareness-raising campaign needs to be comprehensive, well planned and to reach out to all those people and all those communities who need to be aware of the law change, and understand how to respond to it. But I don't think it's helpful or necessary to highlight specific groups, such as visitors to Wales, on the face of the Bill—that's the approach taken in amendment 1E—as it risks placing too much emphasis on certain groups at the expense of others. In relation to children, the committee will know that I'm fully committed to children’s rights, and that Welsh Ministers are already under a duty to have due regard to the rights of children whenever they exercise their functions. An additional due regard requirement, such as the one set out in amendment 1D, relating specifically to the need to promote awareness among children is not needed. This would be part and parcel of the Welsh Government approach to putting children’s rights at the heart of our policy making. Similarly, I don't think it's necessary for the Bill to set out specifically the topics that need to be covered in the awareness-raising campaign, as is suggested in amendments 1B and 1C. That level of detail, I don't think, is for the face of the Bill. Information required about parenting support will be considered by the parenting expert group, under the auspices of the Bill’s strategic implementation group, working with my officials and the expert stakeholder group on the awareness-raising campaign. And, really, their thinking should not be constrained in any way by specifications on the face of the Bill. I think we always need to bear in mind that what the Bill does is remove a defence to an existing criminal offence; it does not create a new offence. And in this context, it doesn't make sense for this Bill to contain a provision requiring the provision of information about how a person may raise concerns if it appears to them that a child is being physically punished. As I set out in my letter to this committee responding to recommendation 15 on this point, safeguarding is everyone’s business, and, as now, the public have a role in highlighting to relevant services if they are concerned about a child. I'm asking for the support of Members for amendments 1 and 4, and I ask Members to reject amendments 1A to 1E because this would place unnecessary provisions on the face of the Bill.

Thank you, Deputy Minister. Are there other Members who wish to speak? Janet Finch-Saunders.


Thank you very much, Chair. My amendments 1 and 4 will place a duty on Welsh Ministers to provide information and increase awareness about the change in the law to ensure that the public are made aware of how the law will change as a result of the defence of reasonable punishment being abolished and that physical punishment would be prohibited once the Act commences. I tabled these amendments in response to this committee's recommendation—this was a recommendation from this committee in the Stage 1 report, so I have responded to that. I've already made a commitment to a high-intensity awareness-raising campaign over approximately six years from Royal Assent, should the Bill be passed. I've considered amendments 1A to 1E, which have been tabled by Janet Finch-Saunders, and which relate to the duty to raise awareness. Amendment 1A introduces a reference to public understanding. We don't think, actually, that this adds anything to the Government amendment, which already mentions awareness. It makes the awareness-raising duty open-ended with no time limit, which is not necessary. By commencement, messaging around the change in the law will be embedded. The awareness-raising campaign will continue for a number of years. Therefore, an ongoing duty referring specifically to the law change would not be required. I understand, of course, that the awareness-raising campaign needs to be comprehensive, well planned and to reach out to all those people and all those communities who need to be aware of the law change, and understand how to respond to it. But I don't think it's helpful or necessary to highlight specific groups, such as visitors to Wales, on the face of the Bill—that's the approach taken in amendment 1E—as it risks placing too much emphasis on certain groups at the expense of others. In relation to children, the committee will know that I'm fully committed to children’s rights, and that Welsh Ministers are already under a duty to have due regard to the rights of children whenever they exercise their functions. An additional due regard requirement, such as the one set out in amendment 1D, relating specifically to the need to promote awareness among children is not needed. This would be part and parcel of the Welsh Government approach to putting children’s rights at the heart of our policy making. Similarly, I don't think it's necessary for the Bill to set out specifically the topics that need to be covered in the awareness-raising campaign, as is suggested in amendments 1B and 1C. That level of detail, I don't think, is for the face of the Bill. Information required about parenting support will be considered by the parenting expert group, under the auspices of the Bill’s strategic implementation group, working with my officials and the expert stakeholder group on the awareness-raising campaign. And, really, their thinking should not be constrained in any way by specifications on the face of the Bill. I think we always need to bear in mind that what the Bill does is remove a defence to an existing criminal offence; it does not create a new offence. And in this context, it doesn't make sense for this Bill to contain a provision requiring the provision of information about how a person may raise concerns if it appears to them that a child is being physically punished. As I set out in my letter to this committee responding to recommendation 15 on this point, safeguarding is everyone’s business, and, as now, the public have a role in highlighting to relevant services if they are concerned about a child. I'm asking for the support of Members for amendments 1 and 4, and I ask Members to reject amendments 1A to 1E because this would place unnecessary provisions on the face of the Bill.

Thank you, Deputy Minister. Are there other Members who wish to speak? Janet Finch-Saunders.

Thank you, Chair. I wish to speak to amendments 1A to 1E, which relate to the Deputy Minister's amendment on the duty to promote public awareness. While we believe it is absolutely imperative that the public are made aware of this controversial change in the law, the Deputy Minister's amendment lacks a number of key points that the committee were actually keen to address at Stage 1. An important thread runs throughout each and every amendment that I've tabled within this group—that of a sustained awareness campaign, which not only stretches beyond the implementation of the Bill, but serves as a duty for future administrations. Amendment 1A: primarily, amendment 1A changes amendment 1 to include the promotion of understanding changes to the law. I don't think it's enough for the Welsh Government to say that the public should be made aware of the coming into force of section 1 and that a public awareness campaign needs to be sustained until the Welsh Government's objectives have been achieved. Despite the fact that it is intended to change behaviour, the consequences of this law are far greater than that of organ donation or prohibiting smoking indoors. Instead of an opt-out system or a civil offence, this law will remove a defence for parents, information on which could be there on their records for the rest of their lives, potentially separate parents, and could affect employment chances. As such, whilst we agree with the necessity of the awareness campaign, it is important too that the Welsh Government take stock and ensures that parents are not penalised due to a weak awareness campaign. The witnesses we heard before this committee also noted the necessity of ensuring that the public understands—


Thank you very much, Chair. My amendments 1 and 4 will place a duty on Welsh Ministers to provide information and increase awareness about the change in the law to ensure that the public are made aware of how the law will change as a result of the defence of reasonable punishment being abolished and that physical punishment would be prohibited once the Act commences. I tabled these amendments in response to this committee's recommendation—this was a recommendation from this committee in the Stage 1 report, so I have responded to that. I've already made a commitment to a high-intensity awareness-raising campaign over approximately six years from Royal Assent, should the Bill be passed. I've considered amendments 1A to 1E, which have been tabled by Janet Finch-Saunders, and which relate to the duty to raise awareness. Amendment 1A introduces a reference to public understanding. We don't think, actually, that this adds anything to the Government amendment, which already mentions awareness. It makes the awareness-raising duty open-ended with no time limit, which is not necessary. By commencement, messaging around the change in the law will be embedded. The awareness-raising campaign will continue for a number of years. Therefore, an ongoing duty referring specifically to the law change would not be required. I understand, of course, that the awareness-raising campaign needs to be comprehensive, well planned and to reach out to all those people and all those communities who need to be aware of the law change, and understand how to respond to it. But I don't think it's helpful or necessary to highlight specific groups, such as visitors to Wales, on the face of the Bill—that's the approach taken in amendment 1E—as it risks placing too much emphasis on certain groups at the expense of others. In relation to children, the committee will know that I'm fully committed to children’s rights, and that Welsh Ministers are already under a duty to have due regard to the rights of children whenever they exercise their functions. An additional due regard requirement, such as the one set out in amendment 1D, relating specifically to the need to promote awareness among children is not needed. This would be part and parcel of the Welsh Government approach to putting children’s rights at the heart of our policy making. Similarly, I don't think it's necessary for the Bill to set out specifically the topics that need to be covered in the awareness-raising campaign, as is suggested in amendments 1B and 1C. That level of detail, I don't think, is for the face of the Bill. Information required about parenting support will be considered by the parenting expert group, under the auspices of the Bill’s strategic implementation group, working with my officials and the expert stakeholder group on the awareness-raising campaign. And, really, their thinking should not be constrained in any way by specifications on the face of the Bill. I think we always need to bear in mind that what the Bill does is remove a defence to an existing criminal offence; it does not create a new offence. And in this context, it doesn't make sense for this Bill to contain a provision requiring the provision of information about how a person may raise concerns if it appears to them that a child is being physically punished. As I set out in my letter to this committee responding to recommendation 15 on this point, safeguarding is everyone’s business, and, as now, the public have a role in highlighting to relevant services if they are concerned about a child. I'm asking for the support of Members for amendments 1 and 4, and I ask Members to reject amendments 1A to 1E because this would place unnecessary provisions on the face of the Bill.

Thank you, Deputy Minister. Are there other Members who wish to speak? Janet Finch-Saunders.

Thank you, Chair. I wish to speak to amendments 1A to 1E, which relate to the Deputy Minister's amendment on the duty to promote public awareness. While we believe it is absolutely imperative that the public are made aware of this controversial change in the law, the Deputy Minister's amendment lacks a number of key points that the committee were actually keen to address at Stage 1. An important thread runs throughout each and every amendment that I've tabled within this group—that of a sustained awareness campaign, which not only stretches beyond the implementation of the Bill, but serves as a duty for future administrations. Amendment 1A: primarily, amendment 1A changes amendment 1 to include the promotion of understanding changes to the law. I don't think it's enough for the Welsh Government to say that the public should be made aware of the coming into force of section 1 and that a public awareness campaign needs to be sustained until the Welsh Government's objectives have been achieved. Despite the fact that it is intended to change behaviour, the consequences of this law are far greater than that of organ donation or prohibiting smoking indoors. Instead of an opt-out system or a civil offence, this law will remove a defence for parents, information on which could be there on their records for the rest of their lives, potentially separate parents, and could affect employment chances. As such, whilst we agree with the necessity of the awareness campaign, it is important too that the Welsh Government take stock and ensures that parents are not penalised due to a weak awareness campaign. The witnesses we heard before this committee also noted the necessity of ensuring that the public understands—

Janet, Dawn is asking if you'll take an intervention.


Thank you, Deputy Minister. Are there other Members who wish to speak? Janet Finch-Saunders.

Thank you, Chair. I wish to speak to amendments 1A to 1E, which relate to the Deputy Minister's amendment on the duty to promote public awareness. While we believe it is absolutely imperative that the public are made aware of this controversial change in the law, the Deputy Minister's amendment lacks a number of key points that the committee were actually keen to address at Stage 1. An important thread runs throughout each and every amendment that I've tabled within this group—that of a sustained awareness campaign, which not only stretches beyond the implementation of the Bill, but serves as a duty for future administrations. Amendment 1A: primarily, amendment 1A changes amendment 1 to include the promotion of understanding changes to the law. I don't think it's enough for the Welsh Government to say that the public should be made aware of the coming into force of section 1 and that a public awareness campaign needs to be sustained until the Welsh Government's objectives have been achieved. Despite the fact that it is intended to change behaviour, the consequences of this law are far greater than that of organ donation or prohibiting smoking indoors. Instead of an opt-out system or a civil offence, this law will remove a defence for parents, information on which could be there on their records for the rest of their lives, potentially separate parents, and could affect employment chances. As such, whilst we agree with the necessity of the awareness campaign, it is important too that the Welsh Government take stock and ensures that parents are not penalised due to a weak awareness campaign. The witnesses we heard before this committee also noted the necessity of ensuring that the public understands—

Janet, Dawn is asking if you'll take an intervention.


Thank you, Chair. I wish to speak to amendments 1A to 1E, which relate to the Deputy Minister's amendment on the duty to promote public awareness. While we believe it is absolutely imperative that the public are made aware of this controversial change in the law, the Deputy Minister's amendment lacks a number of key points that the committee were actually keen to address at Stage 1. An important thread runs throughout each and every amendment that I've tabled within this group—that of a sustained awareness campaign, which not only stretches beyond the implementation of the Bill, but serves as a duty for future administrations. Amendment 1A: primarily, amendment 1A changes amendment 1 to include the promotion of understanding changes to the law. I don't think it's enough for the Welsh Government to say that the public should be made aware of the coming into force of section 1 and that a public awareness campaign needs to be sustained until the Welsh Government's objectives have been achieved. Despite the fact that it is intended to change behaviour, the consequences of this law are far greater than that of organ donation or prohibiting smoking indoors. Instead of an opt-out system or a civil offence, this law will remove a defence for parents, information on which could be there on their records for the rest of their lives, potentially separate parents, and could affect employment chances. As such, whilst we agree with the necessity of the awareness campaign, it is important too that the Welsh Government take stock and ensures that parents are not penalised due to a weak awareness campaign. The witnesses we heard before this committee also noted the necessity of ensuring that the public understands—

Janet, Dawn is asking if you'll take an intervention.

I just wanted to know—could you give us examples of any other piece of legislation where there's been indefinite public awareness campaigns once it's been passed?


Janet, Dawn is asking if you'll take an intervention.

I just wanted to know—could you give us examples of any other piece of legislation where there's been indefinite public awareness campaigns once it's been passed?

There's a lot of legislation. The first Assembly term when I was here—


I just wanted to know—could you give us examples of any other piece of legislation where there's been indefinite public awareness campaigns once it's been passed?

There's a lot of legislation. The first Assembly term when I was here—


There's a lot of legislation. The first Assembly term when I was here—

What I'm asking for is: can you give us specific examples of where there have been indefinite public awareness campaigns running indefinitely past the enactment of a piece of legislation?


What I'm asking for is: can you give us specific examples of where there have been indefinite public awareness campaigns running indefinitely past the enactment of a piece of legislation?

The very first term that I was an Assembly Member, we passed 25 pieces of separate legislation. Even today, as I sit here, the public are not aware of many of those pieces of legislation. This particular piece of legislation will have a profound effect on the parenting of children in Wales. So, therefore, I think there is a necessity for both children and parents to become involved, and I shall speak now—


What I'm asking for is: can you give us specific examples of where there have been indefinite public awareness campaigns running indefinitely past the enactment of a piece of legislation?

The very first term that I was an Assembly Member, we passed 25 pieces of separate legislation. Even today, as I sit here, the public are not aware of many of those pieces of legislation. This particular piece of legislation will have a profound effect on the parenting of children in Wales. So, therefore, I think there is a necessity for both children and parents to become involved, and I shall speak now—

With respect, Chair, that's not the question I asked.


The very first term that I was an Assembly Member, we passed 25 pieces of separate legislation. Even today, as I sit here, the public are not aware of many of those pieces of legislation. This particular piece of legislation will have a profound effect on the parenting of children in Wales. So, therefore, I think there is a necessity for both children and parents to become involved, and I shall speak now—

With respect, Chair, that's not the question I asked.

I can call you in the debate, if you'd like to make a more substantive contribution on this. Yes.


With respect, Chair, that's not the question I asked.

I can call you in the debate, if you'd like to make a more substantive contribution on this. Yes.

The witnesses who we heard from before this committee also noted the necessity of ensuring that the public understands the implications. And that's what we're talking about here, Members—the implications of removing this defence. Strikingly, the Office of Police and Crime Commissioner for Gwent stated the following: 'the potential for public resistance to the Bill through misunderstanding or confusion over it implications may pose the largest barrier to its implementation.' If you are intent on removing the defence of reasonable punishment, it is therefore not unreasonable to ensure that law-abiding parents fully understand the ramifications of this Bill. Additionally, the committee found that while the current Welsh Government's intention to deliver a public awareness campaign was beyond doubt, future Governments may have less of a commitment. This places further weight on the fact that the Welsh Government should be under a duty to promote awareness and understanding of the Bill beyond its commencement. Furthermore, the Children (Equal Protection from Assault) (Scotland) Bill quite clearly notes that, under section 2, the Scottish Ministers must take such steps as they consider appropriate to promote public awareness and understanding about the effect of section 1 on the abolition for the defence of reasonable punishment. Therefore, I would be grateful if the Deputy Minister can respond as to the reasons why the Welsh Government has deviated from this course of action in their amendment. [Interruption.] Should our amendment be agreed—


I can call you in the debate, if you'd like to make a more substantive contribution on this. Yes.

The witnesses who we heard from before this committee also noted the necessity of ensuring that the public understands the implications. And that's what we're talking about here, Members—the implications of removing this defence. Strikingly, the Office of Police and Crime Commissioner for Gwent stated the following: 'the potential for public resistance to the Bill through misunderstanding or confusion over it implications may pose the largest barrier to its implementation.' If you are intent on removing the defence of reasonable punishment, it is therefore not unreasonable to ensure that law-abiding parents fully understand the ramifications of this Bill. Additionally, the committee found that while the current Welsh Government's intention to deliver a public awareness campaign was beyond doubt, future Governments may have less of a commitment. This places further weight on the fact that the Welsh Government should be under a duty to promote awareness and understanding of the Bill beyond its commencement. Furthermore, the Children (Equal Protection from Assault) (Scotland) Bill quite clearly notes that, under section 2, the Scottish Ministers must take such steps as they consider appropriate to promote public awareness and understanding about the effect of section 1 on the abolition for the defence of reasonable punishment. Therefore, I would be grateful if the Deputy Minister can respond as to the reasons why the Welsh Government has deviated from this course of action in their amendment. [Interruption.] Should our amendment be agreed—


The witnesses who we heard from before this committee also noted the necessity of ensuring that the public understands the implications. And that's what we're talking about here, Members—the implications of removing this defence. Strikingly, the Office of Police and Crime Commissioner for Gwent stated the following: 'the potential for public resistance to the Bill through misunderstanding or confusion over it implications may pose the largest barrier to its implementation.' If you are intent on removing the defence of reasonable punishment, it is therefore not unreasonable to ensure that law-abiding parents fully understand the ramifications of this Bill. Additionally, the committee found that while the current Welsh Government's intention to deliver a public awareness campaign was beyond doubt, future Governments may have less of a commitment. This places further weight on the fact that the Welsh Government should be under a duty to promote awareness and understanding of the Bill beyond its commencement. Furthermore, the Children (Equal Protection from Assault) (Scotland) Bill quite clearly notes that, under section 2, the Scottish Ministers must take such steps as they consider appropriate to promote public awareness and understanding about the effect of section 1 on the abolition for the defence of reasonable punishment. Therefore, I would be grateful if the Deputy Minister can respond as to the reasons why the Welsh Government has deviated from this course of action in their amendment. [Interruption.] Should our amendment be agreed—

Okay. I can call you in the debate, Hefin.


Okay. I can call you in the debate, Hefin.

Should our amendment to be agreed, we also request that a printing change be made to ensure that the new heading reflects promoting awareness of the changes to the law made by section 1. Amendment 1B: amendment 1B is in line with the committee's recommendation 9, which stated that, as part of a public awareness campaign, there should be details about the support available to parents to use alternatives to physical punishment when disciplining their children. During evidence at Stage 1, the witnesses we saw before the committee raised serious concerns about harder-to-reach groups who needed to be made aware of removing the defence. For example, Children in Wales, Action for Children and Play Wales stated that some families and communities may be harder to reach with information and support. Welsh Government needs to make sure that they receive the information they need. Now, while the Deputy Minister states that she would work hard to ensure that harder-to-reach groups receive this information, a duty to provide information on alternatives to physical punishment would ensure that future Welsh Governments would maintain a successful awareness-raising campaign. I note the Deputy Minister accepted the recommendation, through our amendment, but this does not explicitly include a duty to provide details about support for parents. As will be expanded upon later, the Deputy Minister has relied upon the 'Parenting: Give it Time' campaign to be delivered alongside awareness raising. However, this is only an online resource and she must be clear about what other avenues will be available to parents who do not have access to the internet or are part of harder-to-reach groups. Amendment 1C: amendment 1C supports the committee's recommendation 15 that explains that the Welsh Government should ensure clear advice is provided on what people can do if they have seen or learned of a child being physically assaulted. We urged, at Stage 1, that although many professionals were already under a duty to report concerns about physical punishment, regardless of the Bill, other witnesses raised concerns that it could create the potential for claims of abuse that are unfounded. In particular, some were worried that children, who may not realise the implications of reporting, could make allegations that are actually untrue. While we would expect the awareness-raising campaign to include the consequences of false accusations, this could also be reflected among adults, if the public are not sufficiently made aware of how they can report and in what situations they can report a case of assault.


Okay. I can call you in the debate, Hefin.

Should our amendment to be agreed, we also request that a printing change be made to ensure that the new heading reflects promoting awareness of the changes to the law made by section 1. Amendment 1B: amendment 1B is in line with the committee's recommendation 9, which stated that, as part of a public awareness campaign, there should be details about the support available to parents to use alternatives to physical punishment when disciplining their children. During evidence at Stage 1, the witnesses we saw before the committee raised serious concerns about harder-to-reach groups who needed to be made aware of removing the defence. For example, Children in Wales, Action for Children and Play Wales stated that some families and communities may be harder to reach with information and support. Welsh Government needs to make sure that they receive the information they need. Now, while the Deputy Minister states that she would work hard to ensure that harder-to-reach groups receive this information, a duty to provide information on alternatives to physical punishment would ensure that future Welsh Governments would maintain a successful awareness-raising campaign. I note the Deputy Minister accepted the recommendation, through our amendment, but this does not explicitly include a duty to provide details about support for parents. As will be expanded upon later, the Deputy Minister has relied upon the 'Parenting: Give it Time' campaign to be delivered alongside awareness raising. However, this is only an online resource and she must be clear about what other avenues will be available to parents who do not have access to the internet or are part of harder-to-reach groups. Amendment 1C: amendment 1C supports the committee's recommendation 15 that explains that the Welsh Government should ensure clear advice is provided on what people can do if they have seen or learned of a child being physically assaulted. We urged, at Stage 1, that although many professionals were already under a duty to report concerns about physical punishment, regardless of the Bill, other witnesses raised concerns that it could create the potential for claims of abuse that are unfounded. In particular, some were worried that children, who may not realise the implications of reporting, could make allegations that are actually untrue. While we would expect the awareness-raising campaign to include the consequences of false accusations, this could also be reflected among adults, if the public are not sufficiently made aware of how they can report and in what situations they can report a case of assault.

Thank you. I've got several speakers. I've got Suzy Davies first, then Dawn Bowden.


Okay. I can call you in the debate, Hefin.

Should our amendment to be agreed, we also request that a printing change be made to ensure that the new heading reflects promoting awareness of the changes to the law made by section 1. Amendment 1B: amendment 1B is in line with the committee's recommendation 9, which stated that, as part of a public awareness campaign, there should be details about the support available to parents to use alternatives to physical punishment when disciplining their children. During evidence at Stage 1, the witnesses we saw before the committee raised serious concerns about harder-to-reach groups who needed to be made aware of removing the defence. For example, Children in Wales, Action for Children and Play Wales stated that some families and communities may be harder to reach with information and support. Welsh Government needs to make sure that they receive the information they need. Now, while the Deputy Minister states that she would work hard to ensure that harder-to-reach groups receive this information, a duty to provide information on alternatives to physical punishment would ensure that future Welsh Governments would maintain a successful awareness-raising campaign. I note the Deputy Minister accepted the recommendation, through our amendment, but this does not explicitly include a duty to provide details about support for parents. As will be expanded upon later, the Deputy Minister has relied upon the 'Parenting: Give it Time' campaign to be delivered alongside awareness raising. However, this is only an online resource and she must be clear about what other avenues will be available to parents who do not have access to the internet or are part of harder-to-reach groups. Amendment 1C: amendment 1C supports the committee's recommendation 15 that explains that the Welsh Government should ensure clear advice is provided on what people can do if they have seen or learned of a child being physically assaulted. We urged, at Stage 1, that although many professionals were already under a duty to report concerns about physical punishment, regardless of the Bill, other witnesses raised concerns that it could create the potential for claims of abuse that are unfounded. In particular, some were worried that children, who may not realise the implications of reporting, could make allegations that are actually untrue. While we would expect the awareness-raising campaign to include the consequences of false accusations, this could also be reflected among adults, if the public are not sufficiently made aware of how they can report and in what situations they can report a case of assault.

Thank you. I've got several speakers. I've got Suzy Davies first, then Dawn Bowden.

Thank you very much, Chair. Thank you Minister, and thank you, Janet, for that. I think it's worth just pointing out at this stage that the majority of the amendments that are being made and articulated by Janet there are based on committee recommendations, and those recommendations were made after taking evidence from the public at large, but also you as well. So, that suggests that, at that stage, we weren't reassured by the offer that you were making because we felt the need to put these recommendations into our report. Now, I recognise that you've moved some way on some of these amendments, and we'll been talking about that through the course of the debates on other groups. But the one thing to bear in mind here is this is legislation, now—that means that this is the instrument of the Assembly, not of Government, and if this Assembly feels that the face of the Bill is unclear on the minimum requirements of a public awareness campaign, then we have the right to suggest the things that we would like to see in that public awareness-raising campaign. The list that Janet has given is a minimum. The reason these have been tabled individually and independently is that some may be acceptable where others may not be, so it will be disappointing to hear that you're rejecting them all, and the reason they need to go on the face of the Bill is that, if you are going to introduce specifics via regulation, at the moment we have no reassurance about how you're going to do that—about what input the Assembly, on behalf of our constituents, could have in designing that public awareness-raising campaign. Unless you accept some amendments in other groups, that is the position with this Bill: the influence of the Assembly will be zero over the content of an awareness-raising campaign. In terms of it being non-time limited, I think the amendment has been tabled in the way it has not to oblige you to an everlasting, never-ending campaign of awareness raising. But if you bear in mind that, seven years after the introduction of this Bill, there's going to be some reporting on the effectiveness of the Bill, what is the point of doing that if you don't then have an obligation, should the reports require it to be necessary, to continue promoting the changes in the law? I accept that that can't go on for centuries, but to actually limit it to two years on an issue that is so sensitive, and which has a reach beyond our boundaries, I think is genuinely a mistake. Finally, you mention that safeguarding is everyone's business. I think that's true, but I think Janet Finch-Saunders was right to say that members of the public, ordinary individuals, not professionals, will need assurance that they're doing the right thing. The amendment as listed is not even there to encourage people to do that, although that can be read in that way, but it is to help them be certain that they are doing the right thing. If this is going to be up to the individual, as you've said, and the committee itself wasn't reassured that individuals would know what to do, perhaps I can ask you to consider at Stage 3, if you're going to reject this amendment, how you can reassure members of the public that, if they are going to intervene on the back of this law, they're making things better, not worse.


Should our amendment to be agreed, we also request that a printing change be made to ensure that the new heading reflects promoting awareness of the changes to the law made by section 1. Amendment 1B: amendment 1B is in line with the committee's recommendation 9, which stated that, as part of a public awareness campaign, there should be details about the support available to parents to use alternatives to physical punishment when disciplining their children. During evidence at Stage 1, the witnesses we saw before the committee raised serious concerns about harder-to-reach groups who needed to be made aware of removing the defence. For example, Children in Wales, Action for Children and Play Wales stated that some families and communities may be harder to reach with information and support. Welsh Government needs to make sure that they receive the information they need. Now, while the Deputy Minister states that she would work hard to ensure that harder-to-reach groups receive this information, a duty to provide information on alternatives to physical punishment would ensure that future Welsh Governments would maintain a successful awareness-raising campaign. I note the Deputy Minister accepted the recommendation, through our amendment, but this does not explicitly include a duty to provide details about support for parents. As will be expanded upon later, the Deputy Minister has relied upon the 'Parenting: Give it Time' campaign to be delivered alongside awareness raising. However, this is only an online resource and she must be clear about what other avenues will be available to parents who do not have access to the internet or are part of harder-to-reach groups. Amendment 1C: amendment 1C supports the committee's recommendation 15 that explains that the Welsh Government should ensure clear advice is provided on what people can do if they have seen or learned of a child being physically assaulted. We urged, at Stage 1, that although many professionals were already under a duty to report concerns about physical punishment, regardless of the Bill, other witnesses raised concerns that it could create the potential for claims of abuse that are unfounded. In particular, some were worried that children, who may not realise the implications of reporting, could make allegations that are actually untrue. While we would expect the awareness-raising campaign to include the consequences of false accusations, this could also be reflected among adults, if the public are not sufficiently made aware of how they can report and in what situations they can report a case of assault.

Thank you. I've got several speakers. I've got Suzy Davies first, then Dawn Bowden.

Thank you very much, Chair. Thank you Minister, and thank you, Janet, for that. I think it's worth just pointing out at this stage that the majority of the amendments that are being made and articulated by Janet there are based on committee recommendations, and those recommendations were made after taking evidence from the public at large, but also you as well. So, that suggests that, at that stage, we weren't reassured by the offer that you were making because we felt the need to put these recommendations into our report. Now, I recognise that you've moved some way on some of these amendments, and we'll been talking about that through the course of the debates on other groups. But the one thing to bear in mind here is this is legislation, now—that means that this is the instrument of the Assembly, not of Government, and if this Assembly feels that the face of the Bill is unclear on the minimum requirements of a public awareness campaign, then we have the right to suggest the things that we would like to see in that public awareness-raising campaign. The list that Janet has given is a minimum. The reason these have been tabled individually and independently is that some may be acceptable where others may not be, so it will be disappointing to hear that you're rejecting them all, and the reason they need to go on the face of the Bill is that, if you are going to introduce specifics via regulation, at the moment we have no reassurance about how you're going to do that—about what input the Assembly, on behalf of our constituents, could have in designing that public awareness-raising campaign. Unless you accept some amendments in other groups, that is the position with this Bill: the influence of the Assembly will be zero over the content of an awareness-raising campaign. In terms of it being non-time limited, I think the amendment has been tabled in the way it has not to oblige you to an everlasting, never-ending campaign of awareness raising. But if you bear in mind that, seven years after the introduction of this Bill, there's going to be some reporting on the effectiveness of the Bill, what is the point of doing that if you don't then have an obligation, should the reports require it to be necessary, to continue promoting the changes in the law? I accept that that can't go on for centuries, but to actually limit it to two years on an issue that is so sensitive, and which has a reach beyond our boundaries, I think is genuinely a mistake. Finally, you mention that safeguarding is everyone's business. I think that's true, but I think Janet Finch-Saunders was right to say that members of the public, ordinary individuals, not professionals, will need assurance that they're doing the right thing. The amendment as listed is not even there to encourage people to do that, although that can be read in that way, but it is to help them be certain that they are doing the right thing. If this is going to be up to the individual, as you've said, and the committee itself wasn't reassured that individuals would know what to do, perhaps I can ask you to consider at Stage 3, if you're going to reject this amendment, how you can reassure members of the public that, if they are going to intervene on the back of this law, they're making things better, not worse.


Thank you. I've got several speakers. I've got Suzy Davies first, then Dawn Bowden.

Thank you very much, Chair. Thank you Minister, and thank you, Janet, for that. I think it's worth just pointing out at this stage that the majority of the amendments that are being made and articulated by Janet there are based on committee recommendations, and those recommendations were made after taking evidence from the public at large, but also you as well. So, that suggests that, at that stage, we weren't reassured by the offer that you were making because we felt the need to put these recommendations into our report. Now, I recognise that you've moved some way on some of these amendments, and we'll been talking about that through the course of the debates on other groups. But the one thing to bear in mind here is this is legislation, now—that means that this is the instrument of the Assembly, not of Government, and if this Assembly feels that the face of the Bill is unclear on the minimum requirements of a public awareness campaign, then we have the right to suggest the things that we would like to see in that public awareness-raising campaign. The list that Janet has given is a minimum. The reason these have been tabled individually and independently is that some may be acceptable where others may not be, so it will be disappointing to hear that you're rejecting them all, and the reason they need to go on the face of the Bill is that, if you are going to introduce specifics via regulation, at the moment we have no reassurance about how you're going to do that—about what input the Assembly, on behalf of our constituents, could have in designing that public awareness-raising campaign. Unless you accept some amendments in other groups, that is the position with this Bill: the influence of the Assembly will be zero over the content of an awareness-raising campaign. In terms of it being non-time limited, I think the amendment has been tabled in the way it has not to oblige you to an everlasting, never-ending campaign of awareness raising. But if you bear in mind that, seven years after the introduction of this Bill, there's going to be some reporting on the effectiveness of the Bill, what is the point of doing that if you don't then have an obligation, should the reports require it to be necessary, to continue promoting the changes in the law? I accept that that can't go on for centuries, but to actually limit it to two years on an issue that is so sensitive, and which has a reach beyond our boundaries, I think is genuinely a mistake. Finally, you mention that safeguarding is everyone's business. I think that's true, but I think Janet Finch-Saunders was right to say that members of the public, ordinary individuals, not professionals, will need assurance that they're doing the right thing. The amendment as listed is not even there to encourage people to do that, although that can be read in that way, but it is to help them be certain that they are doing the right thing. If this is going to be up to the individual, as you've said, and the committee itself wasn't reassured that individuals would know what to do, perhaps I can ask you to consider at Stage 3, if you're going to reject this amendment, how you can reassure members of the public that, if they are going to intervene on the back of this law, they're making things better, not worse.

My comments, really, relate to ongoing awareness-raising campaigns, which I think all of us would want to see, and would appreciate in any changes in legislation. My point, really, is that we have a plethora of legislation that this Assembly has passed in the last 20 years, and I'm not aware of any legislation where, on the face of the Bill we have ongoing awareness-raising campaigns on an indefinite basis. It seems to me that, for some reason, you seem to be wanting to take a completely different approach to this piece of legislation. From what the Deputy Minister is saying—and perhaps I will get some clarity on this—there will be an amendment to the legislation that will say that we have an awareness campaign. That awareness campaign can be the subject of consultation with interested parties in terms of what needs to be included in it. It could also, I assume, Deputy Minister, be an awareness campaign that can be written into a set of guidance for future use. But the point I'm trying to make is that I don't believe that any piece of legislation requires ongoing and indefinite awareness-raising campaigns, and particularly in relation to visitors to Wales. Again, we have other pieces of legislation in Wales that are not applicable in the other parts of the UK. I am not aware that there is a necessity for awareness-raising campaigns with visitors coming into Wales on the raft of the other pieces of legislation that we have that they don't. And similarly, when we go to visit countries that have different legislation, we don't necessarily know what legislation we're going into when we visit that country—you just go there and you accept that you go to a different country and you abide by their laws. So, my key point, Chair, is just the necessity of an ongoing, endless awareness campaign being written onto the face of the Bill.


Thank you very much, Chair. Thank you Minister, and thank you, Janet, for that. I think it's worth just pointing out at this stage that the majority of the amendments that are being made and articulated by Janet there are based on committee recommendations, and those recommendations were made after taking evidence from the public at large, but also you as well. So, that suggests that, at that stage, we weren't reassured by the offer that you were making because we felt the need to put these recommendations into our report. Now, I recognise that you've moved some way on some of these amendments, and we'll been talking about that through the course of the debates on other groups. But the one thing to bear in mind here is this is legislation, now—that means that this is the instrument of the Assembly, not of Government, and if this Assembly feels that the face of the Bill is unclear on the minimum requirements of a public awareness campaign, then we have the right to suggest the things that we would like to see in that public awareness-raising campaign. The list that Janet has given is a minimum. The reason these have been tabled individually and independently is that some may be acceptable where others may not be, so it will be disappointing to hear that you're rejecting them all, and the reason they need to go on the face of the Bill is that, if you are going to introduce specifics via regulation, at the moment we have no reassurance about how you're going to do that—about what input the Assembly, on behalf of our constituents, could have in designing that public awareness-raising campaign. Unless you accept some amendments in other groups, that is the position with this Bill: the influence of the Assembly will be zero over the content of an awareness-raising campaign. In terms of it being non-time limited, I think the amendment has been tabled in the way it has not to oblige you to an everlasting, never-ending campaign of awareness raising. But if you bear in mind that, seven years after the introduction of this Bill, there's going to be some reporting on the effectiveness of the Bill, what is the point of doing that if you don't then have an obligation, should the reports require it to be necessary, to continue promoting the changes in the law? I accept that that can't go on for centuries, but to actually limit it to two years on an issue that is so sensitive, and which has a reach beyond our boundaries, I think is genuinely a mistake. Finally, you mention that safeguarding is everyone's business. I think that's true, but I think Janet Finch-Saunders was right to say that members of the public, ordinary individuals, not professionals, will need assurance that they're doing the right thing. The amendment as listed is not even there to encourage people to do that, although that can be read in that way, but it is to help them be certain that they are doing the right thing. If this is going to be up to the individual, as you've said, and the committee itself wasn't reassured that individuals would know what to do, perhaps I can ask you to consider at Stage 3, if you're going to reject this amendment, how you can reassure members of the public that, if they are going to intervene on the back of this law, they're making things better, not worse.

My comments, really, relate to ongoing awareness-raising campaigns, which I think all of us would want to see, and would appreciate in any changes in legislation. My point, really, is that we have a plethora of legislation that this Assembly has passed in the last 20 years, and I'm not aware of any legislation where, on the face of the Bill we have ongoing awareness-raising campaigns on an indefinite basis. It seems to me that, for some reason, you seem to be wanting to take a completely different approach to this piece of legislation. From what the Deputy Minister is saying—and perhaps I will get some clarity on this—there will be an amendment to the legislation that will say that we have an awareness campaign. That awareness campaign can be the subject of consultation with interested parties in terms of what needs to be included in it. It could also, I assume, Deputy Minister, be an awareness campaign that can be written into a set of guidance for future use. But the point I'm trying to make is that I don't believe that any piece of legislation requires ongoing and indefinite awareness-raising campaigns, and particularly in relation to visitors to Wales. Again, we have other pieces of legislation in Wales that are not applicable in the other parts of the UK. I am not aware that there is a necessity for awareness-raising campaigns with visitors coming into Wales on the raft of the other pieces of legislation that we have that they don't. And similarly, when we go to visit countries that have different legislation, we don't necessarily know what legislation we're going into when we visit that country—you just go there and you accept that you go to a different country and you abide by their laws. So, my key point, Chair, is just the necessity of an ongoing, endless awareness campaign being written onto the face of the Bill.