Well, I congratulate you on persuading local government and WLGA to change their minds, because they actually told this committee that they favoured the HMRC option—and this is only going back a few months—because it will remove—and this is quoting them— 'it will remove the administrative burden of receiving applications and checking eligibility from local authorities'— blah, blah, blah, blah. So, they've obviously changed their minds as well, which is, you know—. I congratulate you on that, but it does present us as a committee with a little bit of a problem, really, because, if we're told one thing a few months ago and then we're told something completely different today, you know, evidence—we have to go on evidence that we've heard, and the evidence has changed now.

I think, during the period since it was discussed on the committee, the work with the HMRC has helped highlight to us where we needed to go. So, I think we did learn a lot and it certainly has helped show to us where we think is the best place to go. I would like to pay tribute to the local authorities, because they've been great partners in this and they're very positive about moving forward keeping the work. And there's also a feeling that, because they are so much closer to the local public than HMRC is, they're able to build up links with families and help with some of these difficult issues. Because I'm sure many of you may have had individual cases—I certainly have—where there's been quite a lot of complexity about helping people fill in the forms and look at their eligibility. So, I say well done to the local authorities. And thanks to the HMRC, because we've had nothing but a very positive relationship with them.

Thank you. Ms Daniels, you referred to value for money. How much is it actually going to cost to change this system from being a temporary arrangement with local authorities to a permanent one? And how much more is it going to cost for the more flexible system that you have in mind? They're not going to do this for nothing. How much extra are you giving them, and will they use it for this? How are you ensuring it's used for this?


I think, during the period since it was discussed on the committee, the work with the HMRC has helped highlight to us where we needed to go. So, I think we did learn a lot and it certainly has helped show to us where we think is the best place to go. I would like to pay tribute to the local authorities, because they've been great partners in this and they're very positive about moving forward keeping the work. And there's also a feeling that, because they are so much closer to the local public than HMRC is, they're able to build up links with families and help with some of these difficult issues. Because I'm sure many of you may have had individual cases—I certainly have—where there's been quite a lot of complexity about helping people fill in the forms and look at their eligibility. So, I say well done to the local authorities. And thanks to the HMRC, because we've had nothing but a very positive relationship with them.

Thank you. Ms Daniels, you referred to value for money. How much is it actually going to cost to change this system from being a temporary arrangement with local authorities to a permanent one? And how much more is it going to cost for the more flexible system that you have in mind? They're not going to do this for nothing. How much extra are you giving them, and will they use it for this? How are you ensuring it's used for this?

So, at the moment, local—. So, two things. Just to start by saying the eligibility checking process is not undertaken by all 22 local authorities.


Thank you. Ms Daniels, you referred to value for money. How much is it actually going to cost to change this system from being a temporary arrangement with local authorities to a permanent one? And how much more is it going to cost for the more flexible system that you have in mind? They're not going to do this for nothing. How much extra are you giving them, and will they use it for this? How are you ensuring it's used for this?

So, at the moment, local—. So, two things. Just to start by saying the eligibility checking process is not undertaken by all 22 local authorities.

No, no, I realise that. Yes, I got all that.


Thank you. Ms Daniels, you referred to value for money. How much is it actually going to cost to change this system from being a temporary arrangement with local authorities to a permanent one? And how much more is it going to cost for the more flexible system that you have in mind? They're not going to do this for nothing. How much extra are you giving them, and will they use it for this? How are you ensuring it's used for this?

So, at the moment, local—. So, two things. Just to start by saying the eligibility checking process is not undertaken by all 22 local authorities.

No, no, I realise that. Yes, I got all that.

So, part of the reason for using 10 is to try to ensure that we build economies of scale and that we have a more efficient operation. Those authorities that undertake that function are given a specific grant in order to do that. That grant is ring-fenced to that purpose.


So, at the moment, local—. So, two things. Just to start by saying the eligibility checking process is not undertaken by all 22 local authorities.

No, no, I realise that. Yes, I got all that.

So, part of the reason for using 10 is to try to ensure that we build economies of scale and that we have a more efficient operation. Those authorities that undertake that function are given a specific grant in order to do that. That grant is ring-fenced to that purpose.

Could you give us an idea of the price tag?


No, no, I realise that. Yes, I got all that.

So, part of the reason for using 10 is to try to ensure that we build economies of scale and that we have a more efficient operation. Those authorities that undertake that function are given a specific grant in order to do that. That grant is ring-fenced to that purpose.

Could you give us an idea of the price tag?


So, part of the reason for using 10 is to try to ensure that we build economies of scale and that we have a more efficient operation. Those authorities that undertake that function are given a specific grant in order to do that. That grant is ring-fenced to that purpose.

Could you give us an idea of the price tag?

Okay, just as a round figure—that's fine.


Could you give us an idea of the price tag?

Okay, just as a round figure—that's fine.

Just for the administration. They get separate funding for the childcare, obviously.


Okay, just as a round figure—that's fine.

Just for the administration. They get separate funding for the childcare, obviously.


Okay, just as a round figure—that's fine.

Just for the administration. They get separate funding for the childcare, obviously.

So that, as I said, is a ring-fenced sum that they use to administer the offer. We are now starting the detailed work to define the new system requirements so that we will have a single application process across Wales, moving forward. As part of that work, we'll need to consider the detailed costings, but our initial estimate suggests that it would be less than the cost proposed by HMRC.


Just for the administration. They get separate funding for the childcare, obviously.

So that, as I said, is a ring-fenced sum that they use to administer the offer. We are now starting the detailed work to define the new system requirements so that we will have a single application process across Wales, moving forward. As part of that work, we'll need to consider the detailed costings, but our initial estimate suggests that it would be less than the cost proposed by HMRC.

Okay, when those costings are worked up, perhaps we could have a note comparing the two figures.


So that, as I said, is a ring-fenced sum that they use to administer the offer. We are now starting the detailed work to define the new system requirements so that we will have a single application process across Wales, moving forward. As part of that work, we'll need to consider the detailed costings, but our initial estimate suggests that it would be less than the cost proposed by HMRC.

Okay, when those costings are worked up, perhaps we could have a note comparing the two figures.

Yes, we would be very happy to share more detail on that.


Okay, when those costings are worked up, perhaps we could have a note comparing the two figures.

Yes, we would be very happy to share more detail on that.


Yes, we would be very happy to share more detail on that.

If it became a universal offer, would those costs reduce? Would there be so much bureaucracy involved in checking eligibility and stuff if every child was open to the offer?


If it became a universal offer, would those costs reduce? Would there be so much bureaucracy involved in checking eligibility and stuff if every child was open to the offer?

So, clearly, if every child is eligible, then a large part of the process falls away in terms of the need to verify income and so on. That doesn't mean that there's no administration. For example, with the foundation phase, which is universally available, there is an application process and there is an administrative function that sits alongside that. At this point in time, I couldn't give you any indication of—


If it became a universal offer, would those costs reduce? Would there be so much bureaucracy involved in checking eligibility and stuff if every child was open to the offer?

So, clearly, if every child is eligible, then a large part of the process falls away in terms of the need to verify income and so on. That doesn't mean that there's no administration. For example, with the foundation phase, which is universally available, there is an application process and there is an administrative function that sits alongside that. At this point in time, I couldn't give you any indication of—

But it would be substantially less, wouldn't it, because they wouldn't have to do all these eligibility checks and all those things?


If it became a universal offer, would those costs reduce? Would there be so much bureaucracy involved in checking eligibility and stuff if every child was open to the offer?

So, clearly, if every child is eligible, then a large part of the process falls away in terms of the need to verify income and so on. That doesn't mean that there's no administration. For example, with the foundation phase, which is universally available, there is an application process and there is an administrative function that sits alongside that. At this point in time, I couldn't give you any indication of—

But it would be substantially less, wouldn't it, because they wouldn't have to do all these eligibility checks and all those things?

They wouldn't have to do the eligibility checks, but they would still have to make payments to the childcare providers and make sure they were paying for the right number of hours in respect of each child. So, parents would still need to tell them where their child was going, and there would still need to be some work alongside that.


So, clearly, if every child is eligible, then a large part of the process falls away in terms of the need to verify income and so on. That doesn't mean that there's no administration. For example, with the foundation phase, which is universally available, there is an application process and there is an administrative function that sits alongside that. At this point in time, I couldn't give you any indication of—

But it would be substantially less, wouldn't it, because they wouldn't have to do all these eligibility checks and all those things?

They wouldn't have to do the eligibility checks, but they would still have to make payments to the childcare providers and make sure they were paying for the right number of hours in respect of each child. So, parents would still need to tell them where their child was going, and there would still need to be some work alongside that.

Okay. Siân, do you want to ask about the Welsh language?


But it would be substantially less, wouldn't it, because they wouldn't have to do all these eligibility checks and all those things?

They wouldn't have to do the eligibility checks, but they would still have to make payments to the childcare providers and make sure they were paying for the right number of hours in respect of each child. So, parents would still need to tell them where their child was going, and there would still need to be some work alongside that.

Okay. Siân, do you want to ask about the Welsh language?


They wouldn't have to do the eligibility checks, but they would still have to make payments to the childcare providers and make sure they were paying for the right number of hours in respect of each child. So, parents would still need to tell them where their child was going, and there would still need to be some work alongside that.

Okay. Siân, do you want to ask about the Welsh language?


Okay. Siân, do you want to ask about the Welsh language?

I don't think that that was the real reason why the change happened.


I don't think that that was the real reason why the change happened.


I don't think that that was the real reason why the change happened.

Nevertheless, the committee was given very concrete assurances that the Welsh language side of this was going to be covered off. Have you got anything that you want to add on that? Obviously, for us as a committee, we believe what we're told when we are given assurances. So, that's quite concerning for us, really, that that suddenly then became an issue, when both HMRC and the Minister at the time told us that this wasn't going to be a problem.


I don't think that that was the real reason why the change happened.

Nevertheless, the committee was given very concrete assurances that the Welsh language side of this was going to be covered off. Have you got anything that you want to add on that? Obviously, for us as a committee, we believe what we're told when we are given assurances. So, that's quite concerning for us, really, that that suddenly then became an issue, when both HMRC and the Minister at the time told us that this wasn't going to be a problem.

So, I think it's the point that I was talking about earlier. There's a difference between a bilingual service in the context of what HMRC understood that to be, in the context of their scheme, and the very detail of the standards when they got into their IT systems.


Nevertheless, the committee was given very concrete assurances that the Welsh language side of this was going to be covered off. Have you got anything that you want to add on that? Obviously, for us as a committee, we believe what we're told when we are given assurances. So, that's quite concerning for us, really, that that suddenly then became an issue, when both HMRC and the Minister at the time told us that this wasn't going to be a problem.

So, I think it's the point that I was talking about earlier. There's a difference between a bilingual service in the context of what HMRC understood that to be, in the context of their scheme, and the very detail of the standards when they got into their IT systems.

Shouldn't that have been something that was worked out at the beginning?


Nevertheless, the committee was given very concrete assurances that the Welsh language side of this was going to be covered off. Have you got anything that you want to add on that? Obviously, for us as a committee, we believe what we're told when we are given assurances. So, that's quite concerning for us, really, that that suddenly then became an issue, when both HMRC and the Minister at the time told us that this wasn't going to be a problem.

So, I think it's the point that I was talking about earlier. There's a difference between a bilingual service in the context of what HMRC understood that to be, in the context of their scheme, and the very detail of the standards when they got into their IT systems.

Shouldn't that have been something that was worked out at the beginning?

Possibly, but they did need to do quite detailed work, not just into their own IT systems, but the feed-in systems from the Home Office, the Department for Work and Pensions and the Post Office as well, to understand the full complexity of how the standards would comply across all of that. They do provide a bilingual service. It was just some of the specific details of the requirements placed on the Welsh Ministers, because it is the Welsh Ministers' standards that they would need to deliver against that they were struggling with.


So, I think it's the point that I was talking about earlier. There's a difference between a bilingual service in the context of what HMRC understood that to be, in the context of their scheme, and the very detail of the standards when they got into their IT systems.

Shouldn't that have been something that was worked out at the beginning?

Possibly, but they did need to do quite detailed work, not just into their own IT systems, but the feed-in systems from the Home Office, the Department for Work and Pensions and the Post Office as well, to understand the full complexity of how the standards would comply across all of that. They do provide a bilingual service. It was just some of the specific details of the requirements placed on the Welsh Ministers, because it is the Welsh Ministers' standards that they would need to deliver against that they were struggling with.


Shouldn't that have been something that was worked out at the beginning?

Possibly, but they did need to do quite detailed work, not just into their own IT systems, but the feed-in systems from the Home Office, the Department for Work and Pensions and the Post Office as well, to understand the full complexity of how the standards would comply across all of that. They do provide a bilingual service. It was just some of the specific details of the requirements placed on the Welsh Ministers, because it is the Welsh Ministers' standards that they would need to deliver against that they were struggling with.

Yes, but those standards were there right from the very beginning.


Possibly, but they did need to do quite detailed work, not just into their own IT systems, but the feed-in systems from the Home Office, the Department for Work and Pensions and the Post Office as well, to understand the full complexity of how the standards would comply across all of that. They do provide a bilingual service. It was just some of the specific details of the requirements placed on the Welsh Ministers, because it is the Welsh Ministers' standards that they would need to deliver against that they were struggling with.

Yes, but those standards were there right from the very beginning.

I think that the committee would feel that that should have been bottomed out at the beginning, really.


Yes, but those standards were there right from the very beginning.

I think that the committee would feel that that should have been bottomed out at the beginning, really.

Nothing has changed in terms of the standards.


Yes, but those standards were there right from the very beginning.

I think that the committee would feel that that should have been bottomed out at the beginning, really.

Nothing has changed in terms of the standards.

Okay, just before we move on to Flying Start, can I just ask: the Minister mentioned a longer term review of the childcare offer. Are you able to give us any indication of when that will report, please?


I think that the committee would feel that that should have been bottomed out at the beginning, really.

Nothing has changed in terms of the standards.

Okay, just before we move on to Flying Start, can I just ask: the Minister mentioned a longer term review of the childcare offer. Are you able to give us any indication of when that will report, please?


Nothing has changed in terms of the standards.

Okay, just before we move on to Flying Start, can I just ask: the Minister mentioned a longer term review of the childcare offer. Are you able to give us any indication of when that will report, please?

We haven't set out a definitive timescale on that as of yet because we've been focusing very much on getting the review in terms of training, education and on the cusp of returning to work up and running. But sometime next year.


Okay, just before we move on to Flying Start, can I just ask: the Minister mentioned a longer term review of the childcare offer. Are you able to give us any indication of when that will report, please?

We haven't set out a definitive timescale on that as of yet because we've been focusing very much on getting the review in terms of training, education and on the cusp of returning to work up and running. But sometime next year.

Okay. So, it will report sometime next year.


We haven't set out a definitive timescale on that as of yet because we've been focusing very much on getting the review in terms of training, education and on the cusp of returning to work up and running. But sometime next year.

Okay. So, it will report sometime next year.


We haven't set out a definitive timescale on that as of yet because we've been focusing very much on getting the review in terms of training, education and on the cusp of returning to work up and running. But sometime next year.

Okay. So, it will report sometime next year.

Okay, thank you. We'll move on now to Flying Start and questions from Suzy Davies.


Okay. So, it will report sometime next year.

Okay, thank you. We'll move on now to Flying Start and questions from Suzy Davies.

Thank you, Chair. Can I just begin by asking you how you respond to the assertion that children from the most disadvantaged backgrounds do better in a mixed socioeconomic environment than in a targeted environment?


Okay, thank you. We'll move on now to Flying Start and questions from Suzy Davies.

Thank you, Chair. Can I just begin by asking you how you respond to the assertion that children from the most disadvantaged backgrounds do better in a mixed socioeconomic environment than in a targeted environment?

I think that's what Flying Start does, isn't it? Yes, I would have thought that was likely.


Okay, thank you. We'll move on now to Flying Start and questions from Suzy Davies.

Thank you, Chair. Can I just begin by asking you how you respond to the assertion that children from the most disadvantaged backgrounds do better in a mixed socioeconomic environment than in a targeted environment?

I think that's what Flying Start does, isn't it? Yes, I would have thought that was likely.

Well, the reason I'm asking you that, of course, is because this committee has suggested, perhaps, changes to the outreach system to target more disadvantaged children, and not necessarily capture people who happen to be in a geographic area.


Thank you, Chair. Can I just begin by asking you how you respond to the assertion that children from the most disadvantaged backgrounds do better in a mixed socioeconomic environment than in a targeted environment?

I think that's what Flying Start does, isn't it? Yes, I would have thought that was likely.

Well, the reason I'm asking you that, of course, is because this committee has suggested, perhaps, changes to the outreach system to target more disadvantaged children, and not necessarily capture people who happen to be in a geographic area.

So, you're saying that you feel that a universal offer in certain areas is not advantageous to—


I think that's what Flying Start does, isn't it? Yes, I would have thought that was likely.

Well, the reason I'm asking you that, of course, is because this committee has suggested, perhaps, changes to the outreach system to target more disadvantaged children, and not necessarily capture people who happen to be in a geographic area.

So, you're saying that you feel that a universal offer in certain areas is not advantageous to—

Well, I'm asking you, really. If it's the case that we're only going after disadvantaged children, which would take very precise targeting—


Well, the reason I'm asking you that, of course, is because this committee has suggested, perhaps, changes to the outreach system to target more disadvantaged children, and not necessarily capture people who happen to be in a geographic area.

So, you're saying that you feel that a universal offer in certain areas is not advantageous to—

Well, I'm asking you, really. If it's the case that we're only going after disadvantaged children, which would take very precise targeting—

I'm not only going after disadvantaged children. I feel that we should be offering something for all children, and our considerations are for all children. The reason we've targeted Flying Start is because it would be great if we had enough money to have Flying Start throughout the whole of Wales, but we just don't have that sort of money. Because I think Flying Start has proved to be a great—very successful.


So, you're saying that you feel that a universal offer in certain areas is not advantageous to—

Well, I'm asking you, really. If it's the case that we're only going after disadvantaged children, which would take very precise targeting—

I'm not only going after disadvantaged children. I feel that we should be offering something for all children, and our considerations are for all children. The reason we've targeted Flying Start is because it would be great if we had enough money to have Flying Start throughout the whole of Wales, but we just don't have that sort of money. Because I think Flying Start has proved to be a great—very successful.

I'm going to ask you a few more questions on that. Because just in response to this committee's 2018 report, you did say that: 'defined geographical targeting of Flying Start support will be considered as part of the Welsh Government’s work on the Early Years system.' That suggests you still have geographic targeting in mind. So, if you're looking at a very mixed source of economic experience for children, what are the geographic boundaries you're considering?


Well, I'm asking you, really. If it's the case that we're only going after disadvantaged children, which would take very precise targeting—

I'm not only going after disadvantaged children. I feel that we should be offering something for all children, and our considerations are for all children. The reason we've targeted Flying Start is because it would be great if we had enough money to have Flying Start throughout the whole of Wales, but we just don't have that sort of money. Because I think Flying Start has proved to be a great—very successful.

I'm going to ask you a few more questions on that. Because just in response to this committee's 2018 report, you did say that: 'defined geographical targeting of Flying Start support will be considered as part of the Welsh Government’s work on the Early Years system.' That suggests you still have geographic targeting in mind. So, if you're looking at a very mixed source of economic experience for children, what are the geographic boundaries you're considering?

At the moment, Flying Start can go beyond the geographical boundaries, with the extension—


I'm not only going after disadvantaged children. I feel that we should be offering something for all children, and our considerations are for all children. The reason we've targeted Flying Start is because it would be great if we had enough money to have Flying Start throughout the whole of Wales, but we just don't have that sort of money. Because I think Flying Start has proved to be a great—very successful.

I'm going to ask you a few more questions on that. Because just in response to this committee's 2018 report, you did say that: 'defined geographical targeting of Flying Start support will be considered as part of the Welsh Government’s work on the Early Years system.' That suggests you still have geographic targeting in mind. So, if you're looking at a very mixed source of economic experience for children, what are the geographic boundaries you're considering?

At the moment, Flying Start can go beyond the geographical boundaries, with the extension—


I'm going to ask you a few more questions on that. Because just in response to this committee's 2018 report, you did say that: 'defined geographical targeting of Flying Start support will be considered as part of the Welsh Government’s work on the Early Years system.' That suggests you still have geographic targeting in mind. So, if you're looking at a very mixed source of economic experience for children, what are the geographic boundaries you're considering?

At the moment, Flying Start can go beyond the geographical boundaries, with the extension—

Yes. I think they can use 10 per cent of their income to go beyond the geographical boundaries, and many of them have done that. But, obviously, there are four elements to Flying Start, and only those geographical areas have got the four elements, but there could be the opportunity of extending some of that beyond the Flying Start geographical areas. We're looking at this.


At the moment, Flying Start can go beyond the geographical boundaries, with the extension—

Yes. I think they can use 10 per cent of their income to go beyond the geographical boundaries, and many of them have done that. But, obviously, there are four elements to Flying Start, and only those geographical areas have got the four elements, but there could be the opportunity of extending some of that beyond the Flying Start geographical areas. We're looking at this.

I accept what you say about the current system—


Yes. I think they can use 10 per cent of their income to go beyond the geographical boundaries, and many of them have done that. But, obviously, there are four elements to Flying Start, and only those geographical areas have got the four elements, but there could be the opportunity of extending some of that beyond the Flying Start geographical areas. We're looking at this.

I accept what you say about the current system—

I believe it's much more—. I believe very strongly in having a universal system, where everybody is able to access it.


Yes. I think they can use 10 per cent of their income to go beyond the geographical boundaries, and many of them have done that. But, obviously, there are four elements to Flying Start, and only those geographical areas have got the four elements, but there could be the opportunity of extending some of that beyond the Flying Start geographical areas. We're looking at this.

I accept what you say about the current system—

I believe it's much more—. I believe very strongly in having a universal system, where everybody is able to access it.

I appreciate that as well. But, obviously, there are huge cost implications for that—unless you're giving us some insight into what you're going to say next week, I don't know. But actually, defining anything geographically, which now seems to be fairly arbitrary, because it's not targeted purely at disadvantaged children—on what basis are we choosing the geographic areas we are choosing at the moment?


I accept what you say about the current system—

I believe it's much more—. I believe very strongly in having a universal system, where everybody is able to access it.

I appreciate that as well. But, obviously, there are huge cost implications for that—unless you're giving us some insight into what you're going to say next week, I don't know. But actually, defining anything geographically, which now seems to be fairly arbitrary, because it's not targeted purely at disadvantaged children—on what basis are we choosing the geographic areas we are choosing at the moment?

Well, they're chosen then because of the benefit take-up in those particular areas. So, it's reaching some of the poorest children, but not all of the poorest children, but it's reaching the poorest children in a way that is not stigmatising, and where the services are open to everybody, and I think that's very important.


I believe it's much more—. I believe very strongly in having a universal system, where everybody is able to access it.

I appreciate that as well. But, obviously, there are huge cost implications for that—unless you're giving us some insight into what you're going to say next week, I don't know. But actually, defining anything geographically, which now seems to be fairly arbitrary, because it's not targeted purely at disadvantaged children—on what basis are we choosing the geographic areas we are choosing at the moment?

Well, they're chosen then because of the benefit take-up in those particular areas. So, it's reaching some of the poorest children, but not all of the poorest children, but it's reaching the poorest children in a way that is not stigmatising, and where the services are open to everybody, and I think that's very important.

Okay. Well, having established that, we have fairly recent research here that a third of children living in poverty in Wales are already falling behind at the age of five—that suggests that two thirds of them aren't, but it's still a very worrying statistic. Not all children live in Flying Start areas; how are you going to reach that third who, even at such an early age, are already falling behind? How many of them are in Flying Start areas?


I appreciate that as well. But, obviously, there are huge cost implications for that—unless you're giving us some insight into what you're going to say next week, I don't know. But actually, defining anything geographically, which now seems to be fairly arbitrary, because it's not targeted purely at disadvantaged children—on what basis are we choosing the geographic areas we are choosing at the moment?

Well, they're chosen then because of the benefit take-up in those particular areas. So, it's reaching some of the poorest children, but not all of the poorest children, but it's reaching the poorest children in a way that is not stigmatising, and where the services are open to everybody, and I think that's very important.

Okay. Well, having established that, we have fairly recent research here that a third of children living in poverty in Wales are already falling behind at the age of five—that suggests that two thirds of them aren't, but it's still a very worrying statistic. Not all children live in Flying Start areas; how are you going to reach that third who, even at such an early age, are already falling behind? How many of them are in Flying Start areas?

I think the actual number of children in poverty, the most disadvantaged that we reach through the Flying Start areas—I think it's about 46 per cent. Is that—? Do you know the actual percentage?


Well, they're chosen then because of the benefit take-up in those particular areas. So, it's reaching some of the poorest children, but not all of the poorest children, but it's reaching the poorest children in a way that is not stigmatising, and where the services are open to everybody, and I think that's very important.

Okay. Well, having established that, we have fairly recent research here that a third of children living in poverty in Wales are already falling behind at the age of five—that suggests that two thirds of them aren't, but it's still a very worrying statistic. Not all children live in Flying Start areas; how are you going to reach that third who, even at such an early age, are already falling behind? How many of them are in Flying Start areas?

I think the actual number of children in poverty, the most disadvantaged that we reach through the Flying Start areas—I think it's about 46 per cent. Is that—? Do you know the actual percentage?

It's about a quarter of total children are in there, but—


Okay. Well, having established that, we have fairly recent research here that a third of children living in poverty in Wales are already falling behind at the age of five—that suggests that two thirds of them aren't, but it's still a very worrying statistic. Not all children live in Flying Start areas; how are you going to reach that third who, even at such an early age, are already falling behind? How many of them are in Flying Start areas?

I think the actual number of children in poverty, the most disadvantaged that we reach through the Flying Start areas—I think it's about 46 per cent. Is that—? Do you know the actual percentage?

It's about a quarter of total children are in there, but—

So, just to give you a few of the numbers, there are just over 36,000 children benefiting from Flying Start services. That equates to about 23 per cent of children, overall, in Wales. And because of the nature of the benefit take-up data, and because we don't assess eligibility within a Flying Start area, we can't be absolutely certain how many children within a Flying Start area are actually in poverty. So, it's an estimate, and it's a range, and the range is that around 45 per cent of children in Flying Start areas would be in poverty.FootnoteLink


I think the actual number of children in poverty, the most disadvantaged that we reach through the Flying Start areas—I think it's about 46 per cent. Is that—? Do you know the actual percentage?

It's about a quarter of total children are in there, but—

So, just to give you a few of the numbers, there are just over 36,000 children benefiting from Flying Start services. That equates to about 23 per cent of children, overall, in Wales. And because of the nature of the benefit take-up data, and because we don't assess eligibility within a Flying Start area, we can't be absolutely certain how many children within a Flying Start area are actually in poverty. So, it's an estimate, and it's a range, and the range is that around 45 per cent of children in Flying Start areas would be in poverty.FootnoteLink

Well, that's interesting. I would have expected it to be much higher than that, particularly if the geographic areas had been targeted on benefit claims, effectively. Are you disappointed that the proportion is—basically, 55 per cent of those children aren't living in poverty. That's what you're saying, isn't it?


It's about a quarter of total children are in there, but—

So, just to give you a few of the numbers, there are just over 36,000 children benefiting from Flying Start services. That equates to about 23 per cent of children, overall, in Wales. And because of the nature of the benefit take-up data, and because we don't assess eligibility within a Flying Start area, we can't be absolutely certain how many children within a Flying Start area are actually in poverty. So, it's an estimate, and it's a range, and the range is that around 45 per cent of children in Flying Start areas would be in poverty.FootnoteLink

Well, that's interesting. I would have expected it to be much higher than that, particularly if the geographic areas had been targeted on benefit claims, effectively. Are you disappointed that the proportion is—basically, 55 per cent of those children aren't living in poverty. That's what you're saying, isn't it?

Well, I'd offer two observations. One: the nature of poverty in Wales is actually, generally, more dispersed than perhaps sometimes is appreciated. Yes, we have very concentrated areas of—


So, just to give you a few of the numbers, there are just over 36,000 children benefiting from Flying Start services. That equates to about 23 per cent of children, overall, in Wales. And because of the nature of the benefit take-up data, and because we don't assess eligibility within a Flying Start area, we can't be absolutely certain how many children within a Flying Start area are actually in poverty. So, it's an estimate, and it's a range, and the range is that around 45 per cent of children in Flying Start areas would be in poverty.FootnoteLink

Well, that's interesting. I would have expected it to be much higher than that, particularly if the geographic areas had been targeted on benefit claims, effectively. Are you disappointed that the proportion is—basically, 55 per cent of those children aren't living in poverty. That's what you're saying, isn't it?

Well, I'd offer two observations. One: the nature of poverty in Wales is actually, generally, more dispersed than perhaps sometimes is appreciated. Yes, we have very concentrated areas of—

Well, actually, we do appreciate it, which is why we're asking this question. [Laughter.]


Well, that's interesting. I would have expected it to be much higher than that, particularly if the geographic areas had been targeted on benefit claims, effectively. Are you disappointed that the proportion is—basically, 55 per cent of those children aren't living in poverty. That's what you're saying, isn't it?

Well, I'd offer two observations. One: the nature of poverty in Wales is actually, generally, more dispersed than perhaps sometimes is appreciated. Yes, we have very concentrated areas of—

Well, actually, we do appreciate it, which is why we're asking this question. [Laughter.]

Okay. So that's one issue to think about. Sorry, I've lost my train of thought now, in terms of the second—oh, sorry: whether you're in or out of poverty is, in one sense, very black/white. But in reality of course—in terms of the income definition, it's very black/white. But, of course, there will be a large number of people who are just above, but also families who move in and out, so it's quite a transient population in some senses, in terms of people having incomes that aren't stable, people having jobs that go with that that aren't stable. So, at any one point in time, you're only sort of capturing a snapshot of what's happening. In reality, it's a bit more complex than that.


Well, I'd offer two observations. One: the nature of poverty in Wales is actually, generally, more dispersed than perhaps sometimes is appreciated. Yes, we have very concentrated areas of—

Well, actually, we do appreciate it, which is why we're asking this question. [Laughter.]

Okay. So that's one issue to think about. Sorry, I've lost my train of thought now, in terms of the second—oh, sorry: whether you're in or out of poverty is, in one sense, very black/white. But in reality of course—in terms of the income definition, it's very black/white. But, of course, there will be a large number of people who are just above, but also families who move in and out, so it's quite a transient population in some senses, in terms of people having incomes that aren't stable, people having jobs that go with that that aren't stable. So, at any one point in time, you're only sort of capturing a snapshot of what's happening. In reality, it's a bit more complex than that.

I accept that. I mentioned a third of children living in poverty had fallen behind at five; by the age of 14, half that number is still falling behind, so something has happened between that third and that half to improve the life chances of those individual children or young people. Is that attributable to Flying Start? Can you say that candidly? Or is it a happy coincidence, where there could be some causation, but we can’t prove it?


Well, actually, we do appreciate it, which is why we're asking this question. [Laughter.]

Okay. So that's one issue to think about. Sorry, I've lost my train of thought now, in terms of the second—oh, sorry: whether you're in or out of poverty is, in one sense, very black/white. But in reality of course—in terms of the income definition, it's very black/white. But, of course, there will be a large number of people who are just above, but also families who move in and out, so it's quite a transient population in some senses, in terms of people having incomes that aren't stable, people having jobs that go with that that aren't stable. So, at any one point in time, you're only sort of capturing a snapshot of what's happening. In reality, it's a bit more complex than that.

I accept that. I mentioned a third of children living in poverty had fallen behind at five; by the age of 14, half that number is still falling behind, so something has happened between that third and that half to improve the life chances of those individual children or young people. Is that attributable to Flying Start? Can you say that candidly? Or is it a happy coincidence, where there could be some causation, but we can’t prove it?

We certainly think that Flying Start is making a positive impact, both on the point at which children go to school, and then subsequently. And I think as the committee knows, we’ve been working with the SAIL—secure anonymised information linkage—and the databank there to look at how we can do longitudinal studies to track children’s progress, to look at the extent to which outcomes are effected by Flying Start interventions.


Okay. So that's one issue to think about. Sorry, I've lost my train of thought now, in terms of the second—oh, sorry: whether you're in or out of poverty is, in one sense, very black/white. But in reality of course—in terms of the income definition, it's very black/white. But, of course, there will be a large number of people who are just above, but also families who move in and out, so it's quite a transient population in some senses, in terms of people having incomes that aren't stable, people having jobs that go with that that aren't stable. So, at any one point in time, you're only sort of capturing a snapshot of what's happening. In reality, it's a bit more complex than that.

I accept that. I mentioned a third of children living in poverty had fallen behind at five; by the age of 14, half that number is still falling behind, so something has happened between that third and that half to improve the life chances of those individual children or young people. Is that attributable to Flying Start? Can you say that candidly? Or is it a happy coincidence, where there could be some causation, but we can’t prove it?

We certainly think that Flying Start is making a positive impact, both on the point at which children go to school, and then subsequently. And I think as the committee knows, we’ve been working with the SAIL—secure anonymised information linkage—and the databank there to look at how we can do longitudinal studies to track children’s progress, to look at the extent to which outcomes are effected by Flying Start interventions.

We probably don't have time for this level of detail today, but half of those children are still behind at the age of 14. So, I'd be curious to know if there's any immediate plans to help them catch up or make sure that their successors don't fall into the same position, the same trap. Have you got anything high level that you can mention at this stage?


I accept that. I mentioned a third of children living in poverty had fallen behind at five; by the age of 14, half that number is still falling behind, so something has happened between that third and that half to improve the life chances of those individual children or young people. Is that attributable to Flying Start? Can you say that candidly? Or is it a happy coincidence, where there could be some causation, but we can’t prove it?

We certainly think that Flying Start is making a positive impact, both on the point at which children go to school, and then subsequently. And I think as the committee knows, we’ve been working with the SAIL—secure anonymised information linkage—and the databank there to look at how we can do longitudinal studies to track children’s progress, to look at the extent to which outcomes are effected by Flying Start interventions.

We probably don't have time for this level of detail today, but half of those children are still behind at the age of 14. So, I'd be curious to know if there's any immediate plans to help them catch up or make sure that their successors don't fall into the same position, the same trap. Have you got anything high level that you can mention at this stage?

Just in terms of what we’re thinking of doing with Flying Start—. The key thing about Flying Start is the collaborative way that it works with the health visitors and all the speech and language therapists and childcare, and we’re looking at ways of trying to get some of those elements to reach a wider group. And as I said, we talked about earlier the eight earlier years transformation pathfinders that we talked about in the local authorities—we talked about that earlier—so, that’s where we’re going to look at Flying Start and how we can try to make it more accessible to more children. So, we do want to extend the benefits of Flying Start. We do want to make it available to more children, and that’s what we’re looking at. And we’re looking at that in those eight pathfinder areas. And you'll have to wait to see what we come up with—


We certainly think that Flying Start is making a positive impact, both on the point at which children go to school, and then subsequently. And I think as the committee knows, we’ve been working with the SAIL—secure anonymised information linkage—and the databank there to look at how we can do longitudinal studies to track children’s progress, to look at the extent to which outcomes are effected by Flying Start interventions.

We probably don't have time for this level of detail today, but half of those children are still behind at the age of 14. So, I'd be curious to know if there's any immediate plans to help them catch up or make sure that their successors don't fall into the same position, the same trap. Have you got anything high level that you can mention at this stage?

Just in terms of what we’re thinking of doing with Flying Start—. The key thing about Flying Start is the collaborative way that it works with the health visitors and all the speech and language therapists and childcare, and we’re looking at ways of trying to get some of those elements to reach a wider group. And as I said, we talked about earlier the eight earlier years transformation pathfinders that we talked about in the local authorities—we talked about that earlier—so, that’s where we’re going to look at Flying Start and how we can try to make it more accessible to more children. So, we do want to extend the benefits of Flying Start. We do want to make it available to more children, and that’s what we’re looking at. And we’re looking at that in those eight pathfinder areas. And you'll have to wait to see what we come up with—

No, no—we'll ask you more about that in due course. Actually, that job would be an awful lot easier if you knew how many children within Flying Start areas were taking up all four elements. Why don't you know that? Why is that data not collected?


We probably don't have time for this level of detail today, but half of those children are still behind at the age of 14. So, I'd be curious to know if there's any immediate plans to help them catch up or make sure that their successors don't fall into the same position, the same trap. Have you got anything high level that you can mention at this stage?

Just in terms of what we’re thinking of doing with Flying Start—. The key thing about Flying Start is the collaborative way that it works with the health visitors and all the speech and language therapists and childcare, and we’re looking at ways of trying to get some of those elements to reach a wider group. And as I said, we talked about earlier the eight earlier years transformation pathfinders that we talked about in the local authorities—we talked about that earlier—so, that’s where we’re going to look at Flying Start and how we can try to make it more accessible to more children. So, we do want to extend the benefits of Flying Start. We do want to make it available to more children, and that’s what we’re looking at. And we’re looking at that in those eight pathfinder areas. And you'll have to wait to see what we come up with—

No, no—we'll ask you more about that in due course. Actually, that job would be an awful lot easier if you knew how many children within Flying Start areas were taking up all four elements. Why don't you know that? Why is that data not collected?


Just in terms of what we’re thinking of doing with Flying Start—. The key thing about Flying Start is the collaborative way that it works with the health visitors and all the speech and language therapists and childcare, and we’re looking at ways of trying to get some of those elements to reach a wider group. And as I said, we talked about earlier the eight earlier years transformation pathfinders that we talked about in the local authorities—we talked about that earlier—so, that’s where we’re going to look at Flying Start and how we can try to make it more accessible to more children. So, we do want to extend the benefits of Flying Start. We do want to make it available to more children, and that’s what we’re looking at. And we’re looking at that in those eight pathfinder areas. And you'll have to wait to see what we come up with—

No, no—we'll ask you more about that in due course. Actually, that job would be an awful lot easier if you knew how many children within Flying Start areas were taking up all four elements. Why don't you know that? Why is that data not collected?

So, the approach that we’ve taken to evaluation in Flying Start—. The committee will have seen the various evaluation reports that have been published, and I know that you’re familiar with the work that, as I say, we’ve been doing with SAIL. We’re currently focusing on individual data collection, and through that we want to be able to report on levels of engagement, but also outcomes for children. We’ve been piloting that new approach in six local authorities. We hope to be able to extend that, and we hope to be able to provide more evidence about the interventions and the impact that they then achieve.


No, no—we'll ask you more about that in due course. Actually, that job would be an awful lot easier if you knew how many children within Flying Start areas were taking up all four elements. Why don't you know that? Why is that data not collected?

So, the approach that we’ve taken to evaluation in Flying Start—. The committee will have seen the various evaluation reports that have been published, and I know that you’re familiar with the work that, as I say, we’ve been doing with SAIL. We’re currently focusing on individual data collection, and through that we want to be able to report on levels of engagement, but also outcomes for children. We’ve been piloting that new approach in six local authorities. We hope to be able to extend that, and we hope to be able to provide more evidence about the interventions and the impact that they then achieve.

Okay. All right. Because, to be honest, I would want to know if a child’s chances have improved primarily because they’re getting good-quality childcare or primarily because their parents are taking up parenting courses. There’s got to be some indication somewhere in here about which of these four elements is making the greatest difference.


So, the approach that we’ve taken to evaluation in Flying Start—. The committee will have seen the various evaluation reports that have been published, and I know that you’re familiar with the work that, as I say, we’ve been doing with SAIL. We’re currently focusing on individual data collection, and through that we want to be able to report on levels of engagement, but also outcomes for children. We’ve been piloting that new approach in six local authorities. We hope to be able to extend that, and we hope to be able to provide more evidence about the interventions and the impact that they then achieve.

Okay. All right. Because, to be honest, I would want to know if a child’s chances have improved primarily because they’re getting good-quality childcare or primarily because their parents are taking up parenting courses. There’s got to be some indication somewhere in here about which of these four elements is making the greatest difference.

I would just caution in terms of expectations. It will always be quite difficult to definitively provide answers to that, because many parents will be taking these things up in combination. So, disentangling which has had the effect is, obviously, quite tricky—in particular, all parents will be getting the enhanced health visiting. Not every parent will take up parenting support, not every child will need speech and language help, so—


Okay. All right. Because, to be honest, I would want to know if a child’s chances have improved primarily because they’re getting good-quality childcare or primarily because their parents are taking up parenting courses. There’s got to be some indication somewhere in here about which of these four elements is making the greatest difference.

I would just caution in terms of expectations. It will always be quite difficult to definitively provide answers to that, because many parents will be taking these things up in combination. So, disentangling which has had the effect is, obviously, quite tricky—in particular, all parents will be getting the enhanced health visiting. Not every parent will take up parenting support, not every child will need speech and language help, so—

Disentangling what's helped and what hasn't I think will always be quite a difficult thing to do.


I would just caution in terms of expectations. It will always be quite difficult to definitively provide answers to that, because many parents will be taking these things up in combination. So, disentangling which has had the effect is, obviously, quite tricky—in particular, all parents will be getting the enhanced health visiting. Not every parent will take up parenting support, not every child will need speech and language help, so—

Disentangling what's helped and what hasn't I think will always be quite a difficult thing to do.

But it would also be helpful to know which combinations work best as well. Just on the final point from me—yes, 88 per cent of Flying Start's childcare offers were taken up, but we've had some local authorities where the take-up has dropped dramatically. I think Denbighshire was down a fair bit, wasn't it, and Ceredigion, I think, had had a poor take-up. Have you got any indication why? I'm thinking of Denbighshire particularly, where there is a tradition—taking up third-party childcare is cultural there, whereas in Ceredigion, for example, there are far fewer places available in the first place and less of a tradition of children taking up childcare. But what's happened in Denbighshire?


Disentangling what's helped and what hasn't I think will always be quite a difficult thing to do.

But it would also be helpful to know which combinations work best as well. Just on the final point from me—yes, 88 per cent of Flying Start's childcare offers were taken up, but we've had some local authorities where the take-up has dropped dramatically. I think Denbighshire was down a fair bit, wasn't it, and Ceredigion, I think, had had a poor take-up. Have you got any indication why? I'm thinking of Denbighshire particularly, where there is a tradition—taking up third-party childcare is cultural there, whereas in Ceredigion, for example, there are far fewer places available in the first place and less of a tradition of children taking up childcare. But what's happened in Denbighshire?

I think there are a number of different reasons why parents do decide not to use a facility, and, obviously, that always exists, but each local authority has a Flying Start account manager in place to support them in the delivery of the programme and the account management activities, and there are formal account meetings that look at this sort of thing once a year—


But it would also be helpful to know which combinations work best as well. Just on the final point from me—yes, 88 per cent of Flying Start's childcare offers were taken up, but we've had some local authorities where the take-up has dropped dramatically. I think Denbighshire was down a fair bit, wasn't it, and Ceredigion, I think, had had a poor take-up. Have you got any indication why? I'm thinking of Denbighshire particularly, where there is a tradition—taking up third-party childcare is cultural there, whereas in Ceredigion, for example, there are far fewer places available in the first place and less of a tradition of children taking up childcare. But what's happened in Denbighshire?

I think there are a number of different reasons why parents do decide not to use a facility, and, obviously, that always exists, but each local authority has a Flying Start account manager in place to support them in the delivery of the programme and the account management activities, and there are formal account meetings that look at this sort of thing once a year—

—and these meetings will take place in November 2019. That's when the specific delivery issues will be discussed in depth, so that's when we'll find out what has happened and why there may have been a drop.


I think there are a number of different reasons why parents do decide not to use a facility, and, obviously, that always exists, but each local authority has a Flying Start account manager in place to support them in the delivery of the programme and the account management activities, and there are formal account meetings that look at this sort of thing once a year—

—and these meetings will take place in November 2019. That's when the specific delivery issues will be discussed in depth, so that's when we'll find out what has happened and why there may have been a drop.

Can I just ask about the timing of that? Because if you already know that there's a 6 per cent drop, why will it take the best part of a year to—well, November's only next month, to be fair, now, but why will it take that length of time to establish why there's a drop? You'd have thought if you'd seen a trend like that—


—and these meetings will take place in November 2019. That's when the specific delivery issues will be discussed in depth, so that's when we'll find out what has happened and why there may have been a drop.

Can I just ask about the timing of that? Because if you already know that there's a 6 per cent drop, why will it take the best part of a year to—well, November's only next month, to be fair, now, but why will it take that length of time to establish why there's a drop? You'd have thought if you'd seen a trend like that—

Obviously, they meet at certain times and they will assess what's happened. That seems quite normal to me.


—and these meetings will take place in November 2019. That's when the specific delivery issues will be discussed in depth, so that's when we'll find out what has happened and why there may have been a drop.

Can I just ask about the timing of that? Because if you already know that there's a 6 per cent drop, why will it take the best part of a year to—well, November's only next month, to be fair, now, but why will it take that length of time to establish why there's a drop? You'd have thought if you'd seen a trend like that—

Obviously, they meet at certain times and they will assess what's happened. That seems quite normal to me.

Okay, but we'll get a note on that, is it? It's just that they knew this six months ago.


Can I just ask about the timing of that? Because if you already know that there's a 6 per cent drop, why will it take the best part of a year to—well, November's only next month, to be fair, now, but why will it take that length of time to establish why there's a drop? You'd have thought if you'd seen a trend like that—

Obviously, they meet at certain times and they will assess what's happened. That seems quite normal to me.

Okay, but we'll get a note on that, is it? It's just that they knew this six months ago.

In November, we'll have more information about this, so we can let you have information about that.


Obviously, they meet at certain times and they will assess what's happened. That seems quite normal to me.

Okay, but we'll get a note on that, is it? It's just that they knew this six months ago.

In November, we'll have more information about this, so we can let you have information about that.

That would be really helpful, just for—. I'm sure constituents in Denbighshire will want to know about that. And then finally from me, Chair, if I may, Flying Start beneficiaries—it's got a specific explanation of what a Flying Start beneficiary is, but I think, particularly in view of the evidence we've heard on this committee about parental support in connection with the removal of the defence of reasonable chastisement, for example, this committee is very concerned about what's out there in terms of parental support. Eighteen per cent of Flying Start beneficiaries have parents attending the informal parenting courses; that's 18 per cent, that's not very high. Any idea about what you might be able to do to encourage take-up or is that very locally decided?


Okay, but we'll get a note on that, is it? It's just that they knew this six months ago.

In November, we'll have more information about this, so we can let you have information about that.

That would be really helpful, just for—. I'm sure constituents in Denbighshire will want to know about that. And then finally from me, Chair, if I may, Flying Start beneficiaries—it's got a specific explanation of what a Flying Start beneficiary is, but I think, particularly in view of the evidence we've heard on this committee about parental support in connection with the removal of the defence of reasonable chastisement, for example, this committee is very concerned about what's out there in terms of parental support. Eighteen per cent of Flying Start beneficiaries have parents attending the informal parenting courses; that's 18 per cent, that's not very high. Any idea about what you might be able to do to encourage take-up or is that very locally decided?

If I can add to that, obviously, somebody only has to attend one course—we've got no way of knowing whether parents are completing the whole of a course, really.


In November, we'll have more information about this, so we can let you have information about that.

That would be really helpful, just for—. I'm sure constituents in Denbighshire will want to know about that. And then finally from me, Chair, if I may, Flying Start beneficiaries—it's got a specific explanation of what a Flying Start beneficiary is, but I think, particularly in view of the evidence we've heard on this committee about parental support in connection with the removal of the defence of reasonable chastisement, for example, this committee is very concerned about what's out there in terms of parental support. Eighteen per cent of Flying Start beneficiaries have parents attending the informal parenting courses; that's 18 per cent, that's not very high. Any idea about what you might be able to do to encourage take-up or is that very locally decided?

If I can add to that, obviously, somebody only has to attend one course—we've got no way of knowing whether parents are completing the whole of a course, really.

Obviously, the offer is there for parents to take up the parenting courses, and there are four elements to Flying Start, and maybe some of the parents don't feel that they want to or need to. I don't think we've got any more evidence on that for take-up—


That would be really helpful, just for—. I'm sure constituents in Denbighshire will want to know about that. And then finally from me, Chair, if I may, Flying Start beneficiaries—it's got a specific explanation of what a Flying Start beneficiary is, but I think, particularly in view of the evidence we've heard on this committee about parental support in connection with the removal of the defence of reasonable chastisement, for example, this committee is very concerned about what's out there in terms of parental support. Eighteen per cent of Flying Start beneficiaries have parents attending the informal parenting courses; that's 18 per cent, that's not very high. Any idea about what you might be able to do to encourage take-up or is that very locally decided?

If I can add to that, obviously, somebody only has to attend one course—we've got no way of knowing whether parents are completing the whole of a course, really.

Obviously, the offer is there for parents to take up the parenting courses, and there are four elements to Flying Start, and maybe some of the parents don't feel that they want to or need to. I don't think we've got any more evidence on that for take-up—

Well, the reach of this is going to be important, because we need the reassurance on the back of the legislation that is going through at the moment.


If I can add to that, obviously, somebody only has to attend one course—we've got no way of knowing whether parents are completing the whole of a course, really.

Obviously, the offer is there for parents to take up the parenting courses, and there are four elements to Flying Start, and maybe some of the parents don't feel that they want to or need to. I don't think we've got any more evidence on that for take-up—

Well, the reach of this is going to be important, because we need the reassurance on the back of the legislation that is going through at the moment.


Obviously, the offer is there for parents to take up the parenting courses, and there are four elements to Flying Start, and maybe some of the parents don't feel that they want to or need to. I don't think we've got any more evidence on that for take-up—

Well, the reach of this is going to be important, because we need the reassurance on the back of the legislation that is going through at the moment.

Parenting courses are, of course, one aspect of parenting support, but not the only one, and they'll be appropriate for a lot of parents, but for some not. What all parents do get at an enhanced level in Flying Start is the support of the health visitor, so the health visitor is, in effect, providing a significant amount of support for parenting. Now, that can be practical things like weaning or potty training et cetera, but, actually, it's also about managing a child's behaviour, managing how a parent develops that bonding and that attachment with their child. So, the role of the health visitor in supporting a parent to be a parent is absolutely critical, and every parent in Flying Start areas will be getting that enhanced level of support. Of course, it's not just in Flying Start areas now, because with the Healthy Child Wales programme, the universal programme of health visiting visits, we have a much more consistent and standardised set of visits and engagements with parents that cover a lot of these areas. In addition, I'd also add that when parents use the childcare in Flying Start, or childcare generally outside of Flying Start areas, there is often a lot of working between the childcare setting and the parent over parenting—again, managing a child's behaviour, managing any issues that the childcare worker thinks are emerging in terms of whether it's eating or, again, toileting. So, parenting courses are important, but it's really essential that we see those in the broader context of the different ways in which lots of professionals interact with parents, providing them with advice, guidance and support, and actually what works for parents in terms of how they take on board some of that advice and that help. Sometimes a formal course is quite off-putting for parents, but the sort of quiet word, the top tips, the advice that a friendly professional gives can be very, very impactful.


Well, the reach of this is going to be important, because we need the reassurance on the back of the legislation that is going through at the moment.

Parenting courses are, of course, one aspect of parenting support, but not the only one, and they'll be appropriate for a lot of parents, but for some not. What all parents do get at an enhanced level in Flying Start is the support of the health visitor, so the health visitor is, in effect, providing a significant amount of support for parenting. Now, that can be practical things like weaning or potty training et cetera, but, actually, it's also about managing a child's behaviour, managing how a parent develops that bonding and that attachment with their child. So, the role of the health visitor in supporting a parent to be a parent is absolutely critical, and every parent in Flying Start areas will be getting that enhanced level of support. Of course, it's not just in Flying Start areas now, because with the Healthy Child Wales programme, the universal programme of health visiting visits, we have a much more consistent and standardised set of visits and engagements with parents that cover a lot of these areas. In addition, I'd also add that when parents use the childcare in Flying Start, or childcare generally outside of Flying Start areas, there is often a lot of working between the childcare setting and the parent over parenting—again, managing a child's behaviour, managing any issues that the childcare worker thinks are emerging in terms of whether it's eating or, again, toileting. So, parenting courses are important, but it's really essential that we see those in the broader context of the different ways in which lots of professionals interact with parents, providing them with advice, guidance and support, and actually what works for parents in terms of how they take on board some of that advice and that help. Sometimes a formal course is quite off-putting for parents, but the sort of quiet word, the top tips, the advice that a friendly professional gives can be very, very impactful.

That's a really helpful answer. It does raise, unfortunately, another question about whether a health visitor in those circumstances might find themselves in a difficult position if they're dealing with a parent who has smacked a child, but we'll leave that for Stage 3.


Parenting courses are, of course, one aspect of parenting support, but not the only one, and they'll be appropriate for a lot of parents, but for some not. What all parents do get at an enhanced level in Flying Start is the support of the health visitor, so the health visitor is, in effect, providing a significant amount of support for parenting. Now, that can be practical things like weaning or potty training et cetera, but, actually, it's also about managing a child's behaviour, managing how a parent develops that bonding and that attachment with their child. So, the role of the health visitor in supporting a parent to be a parent is absolutely critical, and every parent in Flying Start areas will be getting that enhanced level of support. Of course, it's not just in Flying Start areas now, because with the Healthy Child Wales programme, the universal programme of health visiting visits, we have a much more consistent and standardised set of visits and engagements with parents that cover a lot of these areas. In addition, I'd also add that when parents use the childcare in Flying Start, or childcare generally outside of Flying Start areas, there is often a lot of working between the childcare setting and the parent over parenting—again, managing a child's behaviour, managing any issues that the childcare worker thinks are emerging in terms of whether it's eating or, again, toileting. So, parenting courses are important, but it's really essential that we see those in the broader context of the different ways in which lots of professionals interact with parents, providing them with advice, guidance and support, and actually what works for parents in terms of how they take on board some of that advice and that help. Sometimes a formal course is quite off-putting for parents, but the sort of quiet word, the top tips, the advice that a friendly professional gives can be very, very impactful.

That's a really helpful answer. It does raise, unfortunately, another question about whether a health visitor in those circumstances might find themselves in a difficult position if they're dealing with a parent who has smacked a child, but we'll leave that for Stage 3.


Parenting courses are, of course, one aspect of parenting support, but not the only one, and they'll be appropriate for a lot of parents, but for some not. What all parents do get at an enhanced level in Flying Start is the support of the health visitor, so the health visitor is, in effect, providing a significant amount of support for parenting. Now, that can be practical things like weaning or potty training et cetera, but, actually, it's also about managing a child's behaviour, managing how a parent develops that bonding and that attachment with their child. So, the role of the health visitor in supporting a parent to be a parent is absolutely critical, and every parent in Flying Start areas will be getting that enhanced level of support. Of course, it's not just in Flying Start areas now, because with the Healthy Child Wales programme, the universal programme of health visiting visits, we have a much more consistent and standardised set of visits and engagements with parents that cover a lot of these areas. In addition, I'd also add that when parents use the childcare in Flying Start, or childcare generally outside of Flying Start areas, there is often a lot of working between the childcare setting and the parent over parenting—again, managing a child's behaviour, managing any issues that the childcare worker thinks are emerging in terms of whether it's eating or, again, toileting. So, parenting courses are important, but it's really essential that we see those in the broader context of the different ways in which lots of professionals interact with parents, providing them with advice, guidance and support, and actually what works for parents in terms of how they take on board some of that advice and that help. Sometimes a formal course is quite off-putting for parents, but the sort of quiet word, the top tips, the advice that a friendly professional gives can be very, very impactful.

That's a really helpful answer. It does raise, unfortunately, another question about whether a health visitor in those circumstances might find themselves in a difficult position if they're dealing with a parent who has smacked a child, but we'll leave that for Stage 3.

But thank you; that was a helpful answer. Thank you, Chair.


That's a really helpful answer. It does raise, unfortunately, another question about whether a health visitor in those circumstances might find themselves in a difficult position if they're dealing with a parent who has smacked a child, but we'll leave that for Stage 3.

But thank you; that was a helpful answer. Thank you, Chair.

Okay. Thank you. Are there any other questions from Members? No. Okay. Well, can I thank the Minister and the officials for attending this morning? As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for your attendance. Thank you.


But thank you; that was a helpful answer. Thank you, Chair.

Okay. Thank you. Are there any other questions from Members? No. Okay. Well, can I thank the Minister and the officials for attending this morning? As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for your attendance. Thank you.


But thank you; that was a helpful answer. Thank you, Chair.

Okay. Thank you. Are there any other questions from Members? No. Okay. Well, can I thank the Minister and the officials for attending this morning? As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for your attendance. Thank you.

Okay. Item 4 is papers to note. There's just one today: the letter from the WLGA regarding the Childcare Funding (Wales) Act 2019 in response to our letter asking about the change in approach. Item 5 then. Can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you.


Okay. Thank you. Are there any other questions from Members? No. Okay. Well, can I thank the Minister and the officials for attending this morning? As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for your attendance. Thank you.

Okay. Item 4 is papers to note. There's just one today: the letter from the WLGA regarding the Childcare Funding (Wales) Act 2019 in response to our letter asking about the change in approach. Item 5 then. Can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you.


Are we  we're not allowed to dim the lights so people can see that a bit better ?


Are we  we're not allowed to dim the lights so people can see that a bit better ?

Okay , that's fine. Am I supposed to be standing up there ? Okay.


Are we  we're not allowed to dim the lights so people can see that a bit better ?

Okay , that's fine. Am I supposed to be standing up there ? Okay.

So we've got both of these clipped on ? She gonna answer me or not ?


Okay , that's fine. Am I supposed to be standing up there ? Okay.

So we've got both of these clipped on ? She gonna answer me or not ?


So we've got both of these clipped on ? She gonna answer me or not ?


Um I'm Sarah , the Project Manager and this is our first meeting , surprisingly enough. Okay , this is our agenda , um  we will do some stuff , get to know each other a bit better to feel more comfortable with each other. Um then we'll go do tool training , talk about the project plan , discuss our own ideas and everything um and we've got twenty five minutes to do that , as far as I can understand. Now , we're developing a remote control which you probably already know. Um , we want it to be original , something that's uh  people haven't thought of , that's not out in the shops , um , trendy , appealing to a wide market , but you know , not a hunk of metal , and user-friendly , grannies to kids , maybe even pooches should be able to use it. Okay , um , first is the functional design , um this is where we all go off and do our individual work , um what needs need to be fulfilled by the product , um what effects the product has to have and how it's actually going to do that. Um , conceptual design , what we're thinking , how it's gonna go and then the detailed design , how we're actually gonna put it into practice and make it work.


Um I'm Sarah , the Project Manager and this is our first meeting , surprisingly enough. Okay , this is our agenda , um  we will do some stuff , get to know each other a bit better to feel more comfortable with each other. Um then we'll go do tool training , talk about the project plan , discuss our own ideas and everything um and we've got twenty five minutes to do that , as far as I can understand. Now , we're developing a remote control which you probably already know. Um , we want it to be original , something that's uh  people haven't thought of , that's not out in the shops , um , trendy , appealing to a wide market , but you know , not a hunk of metal , and user-friendly , grannies to kids , maybe even pooches should be able to use it. Okay , um , first is the functional design , um this is where we all go off and do our individual work , um what needs need to be fulfilled by the product , um what effects the product has to have and how it's actually going to do that. Um , conceptual design , what we're thinking , how it's gonna go and then the detailed design , how we're actually gonna put it into practice and make it work.

Okay , right. We're gonna practice with the pens and draw our favourite animal on the white board , I'll go first , and um sum up the characteristics of that animal.


Okay , right. We're gonna practice with the pens and draw our favourite animal on the white board , I'll go first , and um sum up the characteristics of that animal.


Okay , right. We're gonna practice with the pens and draw our favourite animal on the white board , I'll go first , and um sum up the characteristics of that animal.

Okay , I'll leave space for everyone else. Um  What's missing ? We're running out of blue. Okay. I'm not gonna ask you to guess , I'm going to tell you that's supposed to be a tiger.


Okay , I'll leave space for everyone else. Um  What's missing ? We're running out of blue. Okay. I'm not gonna ask you to guess , I'm going to tell you that's supposed to be a tiger.


Okay , I'll leave space for everyone else. Um  What's missing ? We're running out of blue. Okay. I'm not gonna ask you to guess , I'm going to tell you that's supposed to be a tiger.

And I see them as majestic , and independent , and proud.


And I see them as majestic , and independent , and proud.


Thank you. Uh , maybe you can guess what I'm trying to make ?


Okay , I see it as one thing it's very supportive. It's your best friend and your  you can talk to a dog , it can be your best friend , it doesn't discriminate between you , based on what you are. Second it's loyal and third thing it's got intuition.  dogs can som sometimes can make out between a thief and a person


Okay , I see it as one thing it's very supportive. It's your best friend and your  you can talk to a dog , it can be your best friend , it doesn't discriminate between you , based on what you are. Second it's loyal and third thing it's got intuition.  dogs can som sometimes can make out between a thief and a person

so basically these are the three unique features I think belong to a dog.


so basically these are the three unique features I think belong to a dog.


Please , please leave me a space at the bottom , I'm little ,


Please , please leave me a space at the bottom , I'm little ,

you can get to the top , with standing on a chair.


Please , please leave me a space at the bottom , I'm little ,

you can get to the top , with standing on a chair.

Well since you guys have chosen the ones I wanted to do , I'll have to have to go for something a bit random.


you can get to the top , with standing on a chair.

Well since you guys have chosen the ones I wanted to do , I'll have to have to go for something a bit random.


Well since you guys have chosen the ones I wanted to do , I'll have to have to go for something a bit random.

And also , my drawing skill isn't that great so , yeah.


And also , my drawing skill isn't that great so , yeah.

Well , as you can see , the quality of the work today is um


Well , as you can see , the quality of the work today is um

Okay , now I'm gonna have to change what is was originally gonna be


Okay , now I'm gonna have to change what is was originally gonna be

because that looks like a beak now , so.  Yeah , it can be a crocodile , it can be a crocodile.


because that looks like a beak now , so.  Yeah , it can be a crocodile , it can be a crocodile.


firstly it was an attempt at a T_ Rex and then it sort of changed into a pelican


firstly it was an attempt at a T_ Rex and then it sort of changed into a pelican

but it can be a crocodile now actually .


firstly it was an attempt at a T_ Rex and then it sort of changed into a pelican

but it can be a crocodile now actually .

Yeah and uh I'll have to think on the spot of uh things that it is. Um


but it can be a crocodile now actually .

Yeah and uh I'll have to think on the spot of uh things that it is. Um


Yeah and uh I'll have to think on the spot of uh things that it is. Um

uh scary , uh strong , yeah that's about it I think .


uh scary , uh strong , yeah that's about it I think .

Okay. Um , I'm very impressed with your artistic skills ,


Okay. Um , I'm very impressed with your artistic skills ,

mine's  are dreadful. Oops this is now coming apart , let me just put the top in.


mine's  are dreadful. Oops this is now coming apart , let me just put the top in.

I hope that clicks in , I'll just  I'll hold it on , okay.


I hope that clicks in , I'll just  I'll hold it on , okay.


Hopefully that'll stay on , two-handed version.


Hopefully that'll stay on , two-handed version.

Okay , uh  Again this is off the top of my head , I was gonna do a big cat too , um.


Okay , uh  Again this is off the top of my head , I was gonna do a big cat too , um.


Okay , uh  Again this is off the top of my head , I was gonna do a big cat too , um.

Oh dear , it doesn't look what like what I want it to be .


Oh dear , it doesn't look what like what I want it to be .


That's my dreadful  that's the worst yet , that's  it's meant to be an eagle


you can tell it's a flying animal  could have been a seagull , I never thought of a seagull. An eagle , um again I'm thinking on my feet goodness. I suppose they're all so independent , I'd put that one down again.  Da dum um.


you can tell it's a flying animal  could have been a seagull , I never thought of a seagull. An eagle , um again I'm thinking on my feet goodness. I suppose they're all so independent , I'd put that one down again.  Da dum um.

Indepen independent , right , did you say they're good at golf ?


Indepen independent , right , did you say they're good at golf ?


I'd say they're quite free-spirited , flying around everywhere , doing their own thing. And uh , birds of prey aren't they ,


I'd say they're quite free-spirited , flying around everywhere , doing their own thing. And uh , birds of prey aren't they ,

oh dear , intrepid. I'll put that , intrepid.


oh dear , intrepid. I'll put that , intrepid.


Okay. That was fun , right. Um finance-wise , we've got a selling price at twenty five Euros , which I don't actually know what that is in Pounds , at all. Any ideas ?


One point four Euro would make a Pound or something like that.


yeah about seventeen , seventeen Pounds , something like that.


Should we be making notes of this ? We can just refer to this later can't we ?


or I could put it in the shared folder or something.


or I could put it in the shared folder or something.

Havi having said that though , if you wanna get one of those  the the ones on the market at the moment they're s they're about twenty pounds anyway.


Havi having said that though , if you wanna get one of those  the the ones on the market at the moment they're s they're about twenty pounds anyway.


so I suppose later it depends if we want to undercut the price , we d or or is it going to make our product look a cheapie-cheapie option ?


so I suppose later it depends if we want to undercut the price , we d or or is it going to make our product look a cheapie-cheapie option ?

Yeah , um production cost's at twelve fifty , so


Yeah , um production cost's at twelve fifty , so

half of the selling price is taken up by building it.


half of the selling price is taken up by building it.


half of the selling price is taken up by building it.

Um , and profit aim is fifty million Euros ,


Um , and profit aim is fifty million Euros ,


You've got market range international and you did say earlier it's got to be a  um accessible and usable by sort of all age groups


You've got market range international and you did say earlier it's got to be a  um accessible and usable by sort of all age groups

just t we're not focusing on business market , any particular thing , it's everyone


just t we're not focusing on business market , any particular thing , it's everyone


yes , yes , I don't think we have to  I don't think it's a case of worrying about different languages and things like that , um making that a key point ,


yes , yes , I don't think we have to  I don't think it's a case of worrying about different languages and things like that , um making that a key point ,

just that it's going to be in the international market like Australia , America , things like that.


just that it's going to be in the international market like Australia , America , things like that.

Okay. What are your experiences with remote controls ? I mean I've got  we got um  we had three videos , a T_V_ and a sort of amp thing all set up


Okay. What are your experiences with remote controls ? I mean I've got  we got um  we had three videos , a T_V_ and a sort of amp thing all set up

so we got one of the universal remote controls , um that you programme each of your things into ,


so we got one of the universal remote controls , um that you programme each of your things into ,


but that kept losing the signals so we'd have to re-programme it every now and again. I think it was quite a cheapie as well , so that might have had something to do with it ,


but that kept losing the signals so we'd have to re-programme it every now and again. I think it was quite a cheapie as well , so that might have had something to do with it ,

but that was quite good , the fact that you could  You didn't have six remote controls sitting in front of you.


but that was quite good , the fact that you could  You didn't have six remote controls sitting in front of you.


but that was quite good , the fact that you could  You didn't have six remote controls sitting in front of you.

Okay , you wanna integrate everything into one like


Okay , you wanna integrate everything into one like


My experience has only been being given the remote control with the object I buy , not doing any tampering with it and programming , using it to programme T_V_ and uh uh videos and things. But basically on , off , volume up and down , channel one , two , th that basic functions ,


My experience has only been being given the remote control with the object I buy , not doing any tampering with it and programming , using it to programme T_V_ and uh uh videos and things. But basically on , off , volume up and down , channel one , two , th that basic functions ,

I don't think I could go any further with it than that , so , I suppose it's got to be something usable by someone like me as well.


My experience has only been being given the remote control with the object I buy , not doing any tampering with it and programming , using it to programme T_V_ and uh uh videos and things. But basically on , off , volume up and down , channel one , two , th that basic functions ,

I don't think I could go any further with it than that , so , I suppose it's got to be something usable by someone like me as well.

Yeah , the main  that's the main stuff anyway , I mean


I don't think I could go any further with it than that , so , I suppose it's got to be something usable by someone like me as well.

Yeah , the main  that's the main stuff anyway , I mean


I don't think I could go any further with it than that , so , I suppose it's got to be something usable by someone like me as well.

Yeah , the main  that's the main stuff anyway , I mean

and you don't want to  I hate I hate looking at a control and seeing a million tiny little buttons with tiny little words saying what they all do


Yeah , the main  that's the main stuff anyway , I mean

and you don't want to  I hate I hate looking at a control and seeing a million tiny little buttons with tiny little words saying what they all do


and you don't want to  I hate I hate looking at a control and seeing a million tiny little buttons with tiny little words saying what they all do

and just sitting there searching for the teletext button or something like that.


and just sitting there searching for the teletext button or something like that.

Mm. And symbols that you don't necessarily understand ,


Mm. And symbols that you don't necessarily understand ,

symbols you're meant to understand that you don't.


Mm. And symbols that you don't necessarily understand ,

symbols you're meant to understand that you don't.

So simplification of symbols you could think of.


symbols you're meant to understand that you don't.

So simplification of symbols you could think of.

Um. When they're  when you've got the main things on the front of it and a section opens up or something to the other functions where you can do sound or options kind of recording , things like that inside it.


So simplification of symbols you could think of.

Um. When they're  when you've got the main things on the front of it and a section opens up or something to the other functions where you can do sound or options kind of recording , things like that inside it.

'Cause it doesn't make  when you pick it up it doesn't make it really complicated to look at ,


Um. When they're  when you've got the main things on the front of it and a section opens up or something to the other functions where you can do sound or options kind of recording , things like that inside it.

'Cause it doesn't make  when you pick it up it doesn't make it really complicated to look at ,


'Cause it doesn't make  when you pick it up it doesn't make it really complicated to look at ,


Actually that just raises a point , I wonder what our design people think , but you know on a mobile phone , you can press a key and it gives you a menu , it's got a menu display ,


Actually that just raises a point , I wonder what our design people think , but you know on a mobile phone , you can press a key and it gives you a menu , it's got a menu display ,

I wonder if incorporating that into the design of a remote control might be useful ,


I wonder if incorporating that into the design of a remote control might be useful ,


Right , I was thinking on the same lines you , instead of having too many b buttons and make it complicated for the user , may h maybe have an L_C_D_ di display or something like that , like a mobile , yeah and with menus.


Right , I was thinking on the same lines you , instead of having too many b buttons and make it complicated for the user , may h maybe have an L_C_D_ di display or something like that , like a mobile , yeah and with menus.

And if it's s somewhat similar to what you have on mobile phone , people might find it easier to browse and navigate also maybe.


And if it's s somewhat similar to what you have on mobile phone , people might find it easier to browse and navigate also maybe.

What about the older generation ? What about granny and grandads ?


What about the older generation ? What about granny and grandads ?

Um , my grandad can answer his mobile phone , but he couldn't even dream of texting or something like that.


Um , my grandad can answer his mobile phone , but he couldn't even dream of texting or something like that.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Can he programme his remote control or is it basic with that too ?


Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Can he programme his remote control or is it basic with that too ?


Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Can he programme his remote control or is it basic with that too ?

Yeah , my grandad's actually better than me at using teletext , so


Yeah , my grandad's actually better than me at using teletext , so


Yeah , my grandad's actually better than me at using teletext , so

Right. Right. So that's a problem regardless of of any design modifications you you come up with ,


Right. Right. So that's a problem regardless of of any design modifications you you come up with ,

that's gonna be a problem anyway with the older generation perhaps ,


that's gonna be a problem anyway with the older generation perhaps ,

Yeah , what it just needs to be  as long as it's sort of self-intuitive and you can can work out what everything's doing , 'cause I mean , menus on sort of new phones now they've sort of got all these pictures and stuff which makes it fairly obvious what you're trying to do.


Yeah , what it just needs to be  as long as it's sort of self-intuitive and you can can work out what everything's doing , 'cause I mean , menus on sort of new phones now they've sort of got all these pictures and stuff which makes it fairly obvious what you're trying to do.