Uh each stage is uh  uh is broken up in two uh two stages , individual work and a meeting. So it's uh it's very straightforward.  Okay , the tool training. We have two smart boards.  This one is for the presentations , the PowerPoint presentations or the Word presentation of whatever you uh you had. Uh and this is uh only for uh drawing. So uh we uh must let it uh stand on this uh this programme.  This is called a smart board

thing uh  Yeah , it speaks for itself. Um and as you uh may have heard , the documents in the shared folder uh can be uh showed on this screen. Not in y the the My Documents. So if you wanna show something , put it in the shared folder.  Uh  This uh is  very straightforward , with the save , the print , the undo , the blank , the select , the pen. Well , I don't uh gonna explain it all ,

because I think you know uh how it works. Um we must not forget uh everything we draw on here , uh all must be saved. We we may not delete anything. So uh if you have uh drawn something , save it. Never delete it. That's a very important uh thing.


thing uh  Yeah , it speaks for itself. Um and as you uh may have heard , the documents in the shared folder uh can be uh showed on this screen. Not in y the the My Documents. So if you wanna show something , put it in the shared folder.  Uh  This uh is  very straightforward , with the save , the print , the undo , the blank , the select , the pen. Well , I don't uh gonna explain it all ,

because I think you know uh how it works. Um we must not forget uh everything we draw on here , uh all must be saved. We we may not delete anything. So uh if you have uh drawn something , save it. Never delete it. That's a very important uh thing.

Okay. Uh little uh little  kinda exercise to uh know each other.


thing uh  Yeah , it speaks for itself. Um and as you uh may have heard , the documents in the shared folder uh can be uh showed on this screen. Not in y the the My Documents. So if you wanna show something , put it in the shared folder.  Uh  This uh is  very straightforward , with the save , the print , the undo , the blank , the select , the pen. Well , I don't uh gonna explain it all ,

because I think you know uh how it works. Um we must not forget uh everything we draw on here , uh all must be saved. We we may not delete anything. So uh if you have uh drawn something , save it. Never delete it. That's a very important uh thing.

Okay. Uh little uh little  kinda exercise to uh know each other.

At uh the white board on the left. Every uh every one of us uh must draw our favourite animal ,


because I think you know uh how it works. Um we must not forget uh everything we draw on here , uh all must be saved. We we may not delete anything. So uh if you have uh drawn something , save it. Never delete it. That's a very important uh thing.

Okay. Uh little uh little  kinda exercise to uh know each other.

At uh the white board on the left. Every uh every one of us uh must draw our favourite animal ,

and uh tell uh tell us why we uh had uh chosen that animal. Uh important is that we use different colours ,  and uh different pen widths. Widths. Widths.


Okay. Uh little uh little  kinda exercise to uh know each other.

At uh the white board on the left. Every uh every one of us uh must draw our favourite animal ,

and uh tell uh tell us why we uh had uh chosen that animal. Uh important is that we use different colours ,  and uh different pen widths. Widths. Widths.


At uh the white board on the left. Every uh every one of us uh must draw our favourite animal ,

and uh tell uh tell us why we uh had uh chosen that animal. Uh important is that we use different colours ,  and uh different pen widths. Widths. Widths.


and uh tell uh tell us why we uh had uh chosen that animal. Uh important is that we use different colours ,  and uh different pen widths. Widths. Widths.

Um this exercise , um did the company board tell you to do it ,


Um this exercise , um did the company board tell you to do it ,


Um this exercise , um did the company board tell you to do it ,

or uh did you just make it up yourself ?


Um this exercise , um did the company board tell you to do it ,

or uh did you just make it up yourself ?

No no no. It's uh it's uh   I I I must do it.


or uh did you just make it up yourself ?

No no no. It's uh it's uh   I I I must do it.


or uh did you just make it up yourself ?

No no no. It's uh it's uh   I I I must do it.

Yeah , yeah , yeah. 'Cause we uh really don't know each other ,


No no no. It's uh it's uh   I I I must do it.

Yeah , yeah , yeah. 'Cause we uh really don't know each other ,


Yeah , yeah , yeah. 'Cause we uh really don't know each other ,

and uh it's kinda new. So getting used to each other , we can uh have a little fun then , before we uh dig in really to the hard stuff.


and uh it's kinda new. So getting used to each other , we can uh have a little fun then , before we uh dig in really to the hard stuff.

That kind of thing. Would you start with drawing your uh favourite animal ?


and uh it's kinda new. So getting used to each other , we can uh have a little fun then , before we uh dig in really to the hard stuff.

That kind of thing. Would you start with drawing your uh favourite animal ?

Um , yeah. I don't know really how it works. But maybe you can show us first ?


That kind of thing. Would you start with drawing your uh favourite animal ?

Um , yeah. I don't know really how it works. But maybe you can show us first ?

Okay , okay. Yeah , okay. Drawing goes with uh this thing. Do not touch your hand on uh this little uh thingy here. That's uh important.


Um , yeah. I don't know really how it works. But maybe you can show us first ?

Okay , okay. Yeah , okay. Drawing goes with uh this thing. Do not touch your hand on uh this little uh thingy here. That's uh important.


Okay , okay. Yeah , okay. Drawing goes with uh this thing. Do not touch your hand on uh this little uh thingy here. That's uh important.


So ,  um  You must p p uh push a little uh  Good. Because  And uh wait uh wait a few seconds. It's not uh fully real-time , so uh watch it.


So ,  um  You must p p uh push a little uh  Good. Because  And uh wait uh wait a few seconds. It's not uh fully real-time , so uh watch it.

Oh yeah. Well I'm gonna paint in the red.


Oh yeah. Well I'm gonna paint in the red.


Well , undo. Um  The pen ? No. One minute please.


Well , undo. Um  The pen ? No. One minute please.

Yeah , that's the one. Well , five. Okay.


Yeah , that's the one. Well , five. Okay.


The the one who says it first  gets a raise.


and he's called Simba. 'Cause he looks like the uh the the lion from The Lion King.


and he's called Simba. 'Cause he looks like the uh the the lion from The Lion King.

So we uh found it kinda cool to uh name it after a lion.


So we uh found it kinda cool to uh name it after a lion.


So we uh found it kinda cool to uh name it after a lion.

He's happy with us , so uh he's smiling.


He's happy with us , so uh he's smiling.

No , only the face. Because we have we have twen twenty five minutes. So we uh


No , only the face. Because we have we have twen twenty five minutes. So we uh


No , only the face. Because we have we have twen twenty five minutes. So we uh

Remember you use uh different colours , and different pen widths.


Remember you use uh different colours , and different pen widths.


So choose a colour , choose a pen width and draw a


So choose a colour , choose a pen width and draw a

You don't have to change the colour and the pen width during uh the drawing.


You don't have to change the colour and the pen width during uh the drawing.


You have to draw uh push hard on the pen or uh


Yeah ? Okay. Open. Which one is it ? Smart board ?


Yeah ? Okay. Open. Which one is it ? Smart board ?

Okay. And now ? Okay. Okay , thanks. 'Kay , I've speed up. 'Kay , that's fine. Line width.


Okay. And now ? Okay. Okay , thanks. 'Kay , I've speed up. 'Kay , that's fine. Line width.


And I have red hair , so uh must be red.


Hmm. Colour.  Something like this. Smaller.


Hmm. Colour.  Something like this. Smaller.

It is a turtle. Why a turtle ? Why ? Tim ?


It is a turtle. Why a turtle ? Why ? Tim ?

Um  'Cause I liked Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles.


Um  'Cause I liked Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles.


It's uh inside its shell. You'll be uh finished sooner.


Format ? And then you have the the current colour ,


Tim had  Uh Tim , what kinda line width did you have ?


Well , very good.  I just uh thought I'd pick the easiest one.


Well , very good.  I just uh thought I'd pick the easiest one.

Okay. Why a dog ? You have a dog at home ?


Okay. Why a dog ? You have a dog at home ?


And and it ,  yeah , when it died we didn't get a new one or something.


Think you uh picked the wrong uh function. Wrong job.


Think you uh picked the wrong uh function. Wrong job.

So I think you can see it's real uh really a easy programme to use. Not difficult at all.


So I think you can see it's real uh really a easy programme to use. Not difficult at all.


I figure I should do something like that ,


I figure I should do something like that ,

but I'm gonna do something much more difficult.


but I'm gonna do something much more difficult.

I'm gonna design a remote uh  remote control animal.


I'm gonna design a remote uh  remote control animal.


Well with the interface , it might be easier to ha to draw here and display there uh.


Well with the interface , it might be easier to ha to draw here and display there uh.

That that might be easier. But at the other hand , uh a pen like that is easy to hold in your hand , and


That that might be easier. But at the other hand , uh a pen like that is easy to hold in your hand , and


Yeah. With a pen than with a mouse mouse.


Yeah. With a pen than with a mouse mouse.

Yeah , I m I mean like uh like on here , drawing drawing uh. And then displaying on screen , but


Yeah. With a pen than with a mouse mouse.

Yeah , I m I mean like uh like on here , drawing drawing uh. And then displaying on screen , but

Mouth. Oh , okay. Yeah. W with this paper it's too mu too expensive.


Yeah , I m I mean like uh like on here , drawing drawing uh. And then displaying on screen , but

Mouth. Oh , okay. Yeah. W with this paper it's too mu too expensive.


Mouth. Oh , okay. Yeah. W with this paper it's too mu too expensive.


Is it a white rabbit f It's the white rabbit from The Matrix.


Uh I figured this is a pretty b good impression of a rabbit.


Uh I figured this is a pretty b good impression of a rabbit.

Okay. Finishing touch and then we're going further.


Okay. Finishing touch and then we're going further.


Well , I think the dog is the the most uh artistic.


Well , I think the dog is the the most uh artistic.

Uh I figured the rabbit was actually the most uh impressive.


Uh I figured the rabbit was actually the most uh impressive.

That's selfish. Okay , now we're gonna dig into the to the serious stuff.


That's selfish. Okay , now we're gonna dig into the to the serious stuff.


That's selfish. Okay , now we're gonna dig into the to the serious stuff.

Uh the selling price for the remote will be uh twenty five Euro , and the production cost uh may not be more than uh twenty and a half Euro. So uh from my point of view , I don't think it's uh gonna be very uh very high tech , high definition , uh ultra modern uh kinda remote , for twelve uh fift uh twelve and a half Euro.


That's selfish. Okay , now we're gonna dig into the to the serious stuff.

Uh the selling price for the remote will be uh twenty five Euro , and the production cost uh may not be more than uh twenty and a half Euro. So uh from my point of view , I don't think it's uh gonna be very uh very high tech , high definition , uh ultra modern uh kinda remote , for twelve uh fift uh twelve and a half Euro.

Uh the profit we must make with uh the new remote is uh fifty million Euro. So that's a lot. We have to sell uh a lot of uh


Uh the selling price for the remote will be uh twenty five Euro , and the production cost uh may not be more than uh twenty and a half Euro. So uh from my point of view , I don't think it's uh gonna be very uh very high tech , high definition , uh ultra modern uh kinda remote , for twelve uh fift uh twelve and a half Euro.

Uh the profit we must make with uh the new remote is uh fifty million Euro. So that's a lot. We have to sell uh a lot of uh


Uh the profit we must make with uh the new remote is uh fifty million Euro. So that's a lot. We have to sell uh a lot of uh

Hundred million uh remotes or something ?


Hundred million uh remotes or something ?

Uh I think uh w when the selling price is twenty five , uh uh you got two million , two million remotes.


Hundred million uh remotes or something ?

Uh I think uh w when the selling price is twenty five , uh uh you got two million , two million remotes.

Twenty million. Two million , oh yeah , two million. Yeah.


Uh I think uh w when the selling price is twenty five , uh uh you got two million , two million remotes.

Twenty million. Two million , oh yeah , two million. Yeah.

But our marketing range is uh , market range is international. So we have uh virtually the whole world we can sell uh we can sell our r remotes to. At least that uh countries which have uh a television.


Twenty million. Two million , oh yeah , two million. Yeah.

But our marketing range is uh , market range is international. So we have uh virtually the whole world we can sell uh we can sell our r remotes to. At least that uh countries which have uh a television.


Twenty million. Two million , oh yeah , two million. Yeah.

But our marketing range is uh , market range is international. So we have uh virtually the whole world we can sell uh we can sell our r remotes to. At least that uh countries which have uh a television.

Um  So now it's time uh for us to uh going uh to discuss a little uh things. You can think about uh experience with a remote control uh yourself , at home. What you think might be uh a useful uh new feature. What uh what can distinguish our new trendy remote control from all the others. Um so uh let's uh let's uh discuss a little. I'm gonna join you at the table.  Well what what's the most uh important thing at a remote control ?


But our marketing range is uh , market range is international. So we have uh virtually the whole world we can sell uh we can sell our r remotes to. At least that uh countries which have uh a television.

Um  So now it's time uh for us to uh going uh to discuss a little uh things. You can think about uh experience with a remote control uh yourself , at home. What you think might be uh a useful uh new feature. What uh what can distinguish our new trendy remote control from all the others. Um so uh let's uh let's uh discuss a little. I'm gonna join you at the table.  Well what what's the most uh important thing at a remote control ?

Um well I think the most important thing of a remote control is that you can switch channels. And my opinion is you should keep it as basic as possible. Uh


Um  So now it's time uh for us to uh going uh to discuss a little uh things. You can think about uh experience with a remote control uh yourself , at home. What you think might be uh a useful uh new feature. What uh what can distinguish our new trendy remote control from all the others. Um so uh let's uh let's uh discuss a little. I'm gonna join you at the table.  Well what what's the most uh important thing at a remote control ?

Um well I think the most important thing of a remote control is that you can switch channels. And my opinion is you should keep it as basic as possible. Uh

Okay. So not a not a remote control who uh uh which can uh can be used for television and a D_V_D_ and radio and  Or just only


Um  So now it's time uh for us to uh going uh to discuss a little uh things. You can think about uh experience with a remote control uh yourself , at home. What you think might be uh a useful uh new feature. What uh what can distinguish our new trendy remote control from all the others. Um so uh let's uh let's uh discuss a little. I'm gonna join you at the table.  Well what what's the most uh important thing at a remote control ?

Um well I think the most important thing of a remote control is that you can switch channels. And my opinion is you should keep it as basic as possible. Uh

Okay. So not a not a remote control who uh uh which can uh can be used for television and a D_V_D_ and radio and  Or just only

Yeah. I think so. Uh but I have some points. Can I show them on the on the big screen ? Maybe ?


Um well I think the most important thing of a remote control is that you can switch channels. And my opinion is you should keep it as basic as possible. Uh

Okay. So not a not a remote control who uh uh which can uh can be used for television and a D_V_D_ and radio and  Or just only

Yeah. I think so. Uh but I have some points. Can I show them on the on the big screen ? Maybe ?


Okay. So not a not a remote control who uh uh which can uh can be used for television and a D_V_D_ and radio and  Or just only

Yeah. I think so. Uh but I have some points. Can I show them on the on the big screen ? Maybe ?


Yeah. I think so. Uh but I have some points. Can I show them on the on the big screen ? Maybe ?

Okay. Oh , in case you want it  This is a dead kind of fly. Between the the the , yeah , the the uh


Okay. Oh , in case you want it  This is a dead kind of fly. Between the the the , yeah , the the uh


Is it possible to open pen drawings in this uh on this screen ?


Is it possible to open pen drawings in this uh on this screen ?

No no no. Only  All the drawings go there , at the left uh


Is it possible to open pen drawings in this uh on this screen ?

No no no. Only  All the drawings go there , at the left uh

Uh but um which  The ones we made on the


Is it possible to open pen drawings in this uh on this screen ?

No no no. Only  All the drawings go there , at the left uh

Uh but um which  The ones we made on the

Oh , that pen drawings. Uh no , I think uh when it is uh in Word and you have saved it in the Shared Documents folder , you can show it there.


No no no. Only  All the drawings go there , at the left uh

Uh but um which  The ones we made on the

Oh , that pen drawings. Uh no , I think uh when it is uh in Word and you have saved it in the Shared Documents folder , you can show it there.


Uh but um which  The ones we made on the

Oh , that pen drawings. Uh no , I think uh when it is uh in Word and you have saved it in the Shared Documents folder , you can show it there.


Oh , that pen drawings. Uh no , I think uh when it is uh in Word and you have saved it in the Shared Documents folder , you can show it there.


Okay , I have some uh points from marketing point of view.


Okay , I have some uh points from marketing point of view.

Um just the standard thing li things like uh intuitive , uh small , fairly cheap. Uh it's pretty cheap , twenty five Euros. Uh brand independent. Um I think , it doesn't have to matter uh which brand your T_V_ or other thing is. Um


Um just the standard thing li things like uh intuitive , uh small , fairly cheap. Uh it's pretty cheap , twenty five Euros. Uh brand independent. Um I think , it doesn't have to matter uh which brand your T_V_ or other thing is. Um


Okay , I'll wrap it up quickly. Um I personally think it has to be multi-purpose.


Okay , I'll wrap it up quickly. Um I personally think it has to be multi-purpose.

Uh most of the remote c uh remote controls are uh just for one purpose.


Uh most of the remote c uh remote controls are uh just for one purpose.

And uh by making it multi-purpose , it uh has a new feature , adds a new feature to the market , and distinguish from uh from current products.


And uh by making it multi-purpose , it uh has a new feature , adds a new feature to the market , and distinguish from uh from current products.

Um maybe some other technology than infrared. Uh I rather find it very annoying um , like when someone is standing in front of the T_V_ then you can't switch it. Um  think about um sending it over radio waves or bluetooth.


Um maybe some other technology than infrared. Uh I rather find it very annoying um , like when someone is standing in front of the T_V_ then you can't switch it. Um  think about um sending it over radio waves or bluetooth.

That might be a little bit uh expensive. Um  And something like an L_C_D_ screen.


That might be a little bit uh expensive. Um  And something like an L_C_D_ screen.

Um uh like I said here um  Maybe it's easy. It's nice as an added feature feature , that um ,  when you're on a certain channel , you can see on the L_C_D_ screen uh what programmes are coming up or


That might be a little bit uh expensive. Um  And something like an L_C_D_ screen.

Um uh like I said here um  Maybe it's easy. It's nice as an added feature feature , that um ,  when you're on a certain channel , you can see on the L_C_D_ screen uh what programmes are coming up or

Okay. So it be uh a multi-purpose uh very technically uh high uh


Um uh like I said here um  Maybe it's easy. It's nice as an added feature feature , that um ,  when you're on a certain channel , you can see on the L_C_D_ screen uh what programmes are coming up or

Okay. So it be uh a multi-purpose uh very technically uh high uh


Um uh like I said here um  Maybe it's easy. It's nice as an added feature feature , that um ,  when you're on a certain channel , you can see on the L_C_D_ screen uh what programmes are coming up or

Okay. So it be uh a multi-purpose uh very technically uh high uh

remote ? Yeah , it must be really uh innovative , technical-wise ?


Okay. So it be uh a multi-purpose uh very technically uh high uh

remote ? Yeah , it must be really uh innovative , technical-wise ?

Yeah , it has to be uh  Yeah , our company is very uh good in making new innovative uh things.


remote ? Yeah , it must be really uh innovative , technical-wise ?

Yeah , it has to be uh  Yeah , our company is very uh good in making new innovative uh things.


Yeah , it has to be uh  Yeah , our company is very uh good in making new innovative uh things.


So we must focus on things who are really uh really add something to uh to


So we must focus on things who are really uh really add something to uh to

Look ,  you got some cheap uh remote controls there. They just uh  Yeah , you got a dozen of 'em.


Look ,  you got some cheap uh remote controls there. They just uh  Yeah , you got a dozen of 'em.


Look ,  you got some cheap uh remote controls there. They just uh  Yeah , you got a dozen of 'em.

But when you enter a new market with a remote control and


But when you enter a new market with a remote control and


you have to do something special , I think.


you have to do something special , I think.

Yeah. But we have to keep an eye that it's  Uh at the beginning of such a project , it's it's it's very uh cool to talk about , well , this would be cool , that would be cool.


you have to do something special , I think.

Yeah. But we have to keep an eye that it's  Uh at the beginning of such a project , it's it's it's very uh cool to talk about , well , this would be cool , that would be cool.

Uh but we must not uh lose uh sight of the the user uh uh friendly uh


Yeah. But we have to keep an eye that it's  Uh at the beginning of such a project , it's it's it's very uh cool to talk about , well , this would be cool , that would be cool.

Uh but we must not uh lose uh sight of the the user uh uh friendly uh


Uh but we must not uh lose uh sight of the the user uh uh friendly uh


Uh but we must not uh lose uh sight of the the user uh uh friendly uh

But it's  But but this is just from marketing uh aspect.


But it's  But but this is just from marketing uh aspect.


But it's  But but this is just from marketing uh aspect.

I don't know anything about user interface or  design.


I don't know anything about user interface or  design.


Okay , uh next meeting will start in thirty minutes. So uh you uh will have uh individual actions where I presume uh will be some feedback , uh via the m the mail. Um  the the the Industrial uh Designer has to uh look at the working design.  Uh the User Interface Designer has to look at the technical functions. So that's the thing we uh discussed.


Okay , uh next meeting will start in thirty minutes. So uh you uh will have uh individual actions where I presume uh will be some feedback , uh via the m the mail. Um  the the the Industrial uh Designer has to uh look at the working design.  Uh the User Interface Designer has to look at the technical functions. So that's the thing we uh discussed.

we must first agree on uh what we're going to m going to make. Do we  Are we going to use um it it for multiple systems ? Or uh  We should have some agreement on that before we


we must first agree on uh what we're going to m going to make. Do we  Are we going to use um it it for multiple systems ? Or uh  We should have some agreement on that before we


we must first agree on uh what we're going to m going to make. Do we  Are we going to use um it it for multiple systems ? Or uh  We should have some agreement on that before we

Mm uh I I don't think we have to be , we have to agree on that. Uh


we must first agree on uh what we're going to m going to make. Do we  Are we going to use um it it for multiple systems ? Or uh  We should have some agreement on that before we

Mm uh I I don't think we have to be , we have to agree on that. Uh

I figure we could get back to it on the next meeting actually.


Mm uh I I don't think we have to be , we have to agree on that. Uh

I figure we could get back to it on the next meeting actually.


I figure we could get back to it on the next meeting actually.


Ju just uh make some mock-ups , some some general ideas.


Yeah. But maybe , because uh you are working on the user requirements , you are working on the technical functions , we uh must uh have a little or kinda uh uh uh  How do you call it ? Uh


Yeah. But maybe , because uh you are working on the user requirements , you are working on the technical functions , we uh must uh have a little or kinda uh uh uh  How do you call it ? Uh

Uh a little plan on on what we're going to do. So you don't uh uh come up with the user requirements who don't fit the the the the technical functions at all. Some basic things we co we want to going to do. Uh I think that's well uh  Yeah. Will come in handy.


Uh a little plan on on what we're going to do. So you don't uh uh come up with the user requirements who don't fit the the the the technical functions at all. Some basic things we co we want to going to do. Uh I think that's well uh  Yeah. Will come in handy.


if the technical functions have to be designed , I I've gotta know for what kind of machines they will be.


if the technical functions have to be designed , I I've gotta know for what kind of machines they will be.

Or do we use it a text screen ? Or uh will it be with uh with bluetooth or


if the technical functions have to be designed , I I've gotta know for what kind of machines they will be.

Or do we use it a text screen ? Or uh will it be with uh with bluetooth or

Well , th that's that's really a step further. But if you say uh  is it uh uh one way or multi-purpose , that's a


Or do we use it a text screen ? Or uh will it be with uh with bluetooth or

Well , th that's that's really a step further. But if you say uh  is it uh uh one way or multi-purpose , that's a


Well , th that's that's really a step further. But if you say uh  is it uh uh one way or multi-purpose , that's a


Like we all have a list of uh things that has to b that have to be in it , or how it has to be like. And then in the next meeting we decide


Yeah , I agree uh , we can take it from there.


each individually i individually uh must think on what's uh at uh his point of view is the most important. And uh then we're going to fit uh all the pieces together the next meeting.


so it's over. You uh will receive specific specific instructions uh by your personal coach. And I see you in uh thirty minutes. Thank you.


Okay. Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and Jack Sargeant and I'm very pleased to welcome Jayne Bryant back, who is substituting for Jack today. Are there any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay, thank you. Item 2, then, this morning, is our sixth scrutiny session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. I'm very pleased to welcome our witnesses this morning: Sally Jenkins, who is chair of All Wales Heads of Children’s Services and is here representing the Association of Directors of Social Services; Alastair Birch, who is senior system leader for equalities and safeguarding at Pembrokeshire County Council, who is here representing the Association of Directors of Education Wales; and Councillor Huw David, who is the Welsh Local Government Association spokesperson for health and social care and leader of Bridgend County Borough Council. So, thank you all for attending this morning. We're very pleased to have you here. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so, if you're happy, we'll go straight into questions and I'll start just by asking about your general support for the Bill, which is outlined in the evidence. Can you just explain why you think the current law is ineffective or unclear?

Bore da—bore da, bawb. So, I'm Alastair Birch. The statement, really, from ADEW is that the rights of the child should be educated and achieved, really, under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. The current legislation has been criticised, obviously, by the UN concerning the defence of reasonable punishment still being within our current legislation. So, we will always—ADEW will always—advocate that the rights of the child be upheld, so that is really the fundamental aspect in terms of the statement from ADEW, and the position of ADEW is that the rights of the child are fundamental in this process. And there are certain articles—. I know that the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011 made sure that article 3 and article 4, article 12 and article 37 were a focus in terms of making sure that the best interests of the child were put first, that children expressing their views and opinions was a priority. And we know, for safeguarding purposes, that the express opinions of the child and the voice of the child are a fundamental aspect of any safe environment, whether it be a school or college. So, that is—the position is really following that legal position under the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure.

Okay, thank you. Nothing to add at this stage, no?


Bore da—bore da, bawb. So, I'm Alastair Birch. The statement, really, from ADEW is that the rights of the child should be educated and achieved, really, under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. The current legislation has been criticised, obviously, by the UN concerning the defence of reasonable punishment still being within our current legislation. So, we will always—ADEW will always—advocate that the rights of the child be upheld, so that is really the fundamental aspect in terms of the statement from ADEW, and the position of ADEW is that the rights of the child are fundamental in this process. And there are certain articles—. I know that the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011 made sure that article 3 and article 4, article 12 and article 37 were a focus in terms of making sure that the best interests of the child were put first, that children expressing their views and opinions was a priority. And we know, for safeguarding purposes, that the express opinions of the child and the voice of the child are a fundamental aspect of any safe environment, whether it be a school or college. So, that is—the position is really following that legal position under the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure.

Okay, thank you. Nothing to add at this stage, no?

I'll just add, on behalf of ADSS and on behalf of children's services and social services more widely, for us, this is not a change in our position, this is not new; this is a position that we, on behalf of the leaders of social services across Wales, have taken over many years, going back 20, 25 years. I think what we would say is that we really welcome this Bill and we welcome the proposed change for the clarity it would bring—the clarity that it would bring for children, for parents and for professionals. I think what we would recognise is that this is a very little-used piece of legislation, so it's rare, it's not as if this is something that is going to cast great change across the scene for children and families in Wales, but what it will do is represent a change in the reality of how we care and nurture our children. I would echo absolutely what Alastair has said in terms of the rights of the child, but equally, in terms of all of our policies in Wales in terms of promoting well-being for children, this has to be key. So, for us, this is about a natural progression of change in how we care for our children in Wales. For children's services at the very sharp end of this world, for us, it brings a true clarity. This continues with an ambiguity in how we treat our children and how we care for our children, and the shift for us brings that very much needed clarity.


Bore da—bore da, bawb. So, I'm Alastair Birch. The statement, really, from ADEW is that the rights of the child should be educated and achieved, really, under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. The current legislation has been criticised, obviously, by the UN concerning the defence of reasonable punishment still being within our current legislation. So, we will always—ADEW will always—advocate that the rights of the child be upheld, so that is really the fundamental aspect in terms of the statement from ADEW, and the position of ADEW is that the rights of the child are fundamental in this process. And there are certain articles—. I know that the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011 made sure that article 3 and article 4, article 12 and article 37 were a focus in terms of making sure that the best interests of the child were put first, that children expressing their views and opinions was a priority. And we know, for safeguarding purposes, that the express opinions of the child and the voice of the child are a fundamental aspect of any safe environment, whether it be a school or college. So, that is—the position is really following that legal position under the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure.

Okay, thank you. Nothing to add at this stage, no?

I'll just add, on behalf of ADSS and on behalf of children's services and social services more widely, for us, this is not a change in our position, this is not new; this is a position that we, on behalf of the leaders of social services across Wales, have taken over many years, going back 20, 25 years. I think what we would say is that we really welcome this Bill and we welcome the proposed change for the clarity it would bring—the clarity that it would bring for children, for parents and for professionals. I think what we would recognise is that this is a very little-used piece of legislation, so it's rare, it's not as if this is something that is going to cast great change across the scene for children and families in Wales, but what it will do is represent a change in the reality of how we care and nurture our children. I would echo absolutely what Alastair has said in terms of the rights of the child, but equally, in terms of all of our policies in Wales in terms of promoting well-being for children, this has to be key. So, for us, this is about a natural progression of change in how we care for our children in Wales. For children's services at the very sharp end of this world, for us, it brings a true clarity. This continues with an ambiguity in how we treat our children and how we care for our children, and the shift for us brings that very much needed clarity.

Okay, thank you. The committee has already heard different views about whether there's clear evidence that physical punishment is harmful to children. What evidence does the work of social services provide about whether physical punishment is actually harmful?


Okay, thank you. Nothing to add at this stage, no?

I'll just add, on behalf of ADSS and on behalf of children's services and social services more widely, for us, this is not a change in our position, this is not new; this is a position that we, on behalf of the leaders of social services across Wales, have taken over many years, going back 20, 25 years. I think what we would say is that we really welcome this Bill and we welcome the proposed change for the clarity it would bring—the clarity that it would bring for children, for parents and for professionals. I think what we would recognise is that this is a very little-used piece of legislation, so it's rare, it's not as if this is something that is going to cast great change across the scene for children and families in Wales, but what it will do is represent a change in the reality of how we care and nurture our children. I would echo absolutely what Alastair has said in terms of the rights of the child, but equally, in terms of all of our policies in Wales in terms of promoting well-being for children, this has to be key. So, for us, this is about a natural progression of change in how we care for our children in Wales. For children's services at the very sharp end of this world, for us, it brings a true clarity. This continues with an ambiguity in how we treat our children and how we care for our children, and the shift for us brings that very much needed clarity.

Okay, thank you. The committee has already heard different views about whether there's clear evidence that physical punishment is harmful to children. What evidence does the work of social services provide about whether physical punishment is actually harmful?

Obviously, what you'll all be aware of is that, as part of the consultation for this Bill, the Public Policy Institute did a further piece of research to look at the impact of physical punishment on children. A number of things that we know—we know from across the world that the evidence is that introducing legislation or changing legislation in this way improves children's positions within their families. What we know is that children themselves, as Alastair has already referred to, really find physical punishment demeaning and harmful, and for children it is an emotionally damaging experience. Now, there may be disagreement about that, there will be different views on that, but that's the voice of the child in this debate. The voice of the child is very clear that physical punishment is for them harmful. I think what we would also say is that, in the world that we work in, it's part of a continuum, and, whilst this is an element of how children are cared for, what we see is a continuum where an acceptance of how we treat children in a particular way perpetuates throughout our work. By changing this, it helps that shift to that absolute recognition that our children must be cared for in a way that is physically safe in all dimensions for them.


I'll just add, on behalf of ADSS and on behalf of children's services and social services more widely, for us, this is not a change in our position, this is not new; this is a position that we, on behalf of the leaders of social services across Wales, have taken over many years, going back 20, 25 years. I think what we would say is that we really welcome this Bill and we welcome the proposed change for the clarity it would bring—the clarity that it would bring for children, for parents and for professionals. I think what we would recognise is that this is a very little-used piece of legislation, so it's rare, it's not as if this is something that is going to cast great change across the scene for children and families in Wales, but what it will do is represent a change in the reality of how we care and nurture our children. I would echo absolutely what Alastair has said in terms of the rights of the child, but equally, in terms of all of our policies in Wales in terms of promoting well-being for children, this has to be key. So, for us, this is about a natural progression of change in how we care for our children in Wales. For children's services at the very sharp end of this world, for us, it brings a true clarity. This continues with an ambiguity in how we treat our children and how we care for our children, and the shift for us brings that very much needed clarity.

Okay, thank you. The committee has already heard different views about whether there's clear evidence that physical punishment is harmful to children. What evidence does the work of social services provide about whether physical punishment is actually harmful?

Obviously, what you'll all be aware of is that, as part of the consultation for this Bill, the Public Policy Institute did a further piece of research to look at the impact of physical punishment on children. A number of things that we know—we know from across the world that the evidence is that introducing legislation or changing legislation in this way improves children's positions within their families. What we know is that children themselves, as Alastair has already referred to, really find physical punishment demeaning and harmful, and for children it is an emotionally damaging experience. Now, there may be disagreement about that, there will be different views on that, but that's the voice of the child in this debate. The voice of the child is very clear that physical punishment is for them harmful. I think what we would also say is that, in the world that we work in, it's part of a continuum, and, whilst this is an element of how children are cared for, what we see is a continuum where an acceptance of how we treat children in a particular way perpetuates throughout our work. By changing this, it helps that shift to that absolute recognition that our children must be cared for in a way that is physically safe in all dimensions for them.

Okay, thank you. We've had evidence from the equal protection network that the reasonable punishment defence undermines child protection and fails to protect children because it permits an arbitrary level of violence, which invades children's physical integrity, making it a potential pathway to more serious physical or sexual abuse, and you did refer to that just now. Is there anything you want to add on that?


Okay, thank you. The committee has already heard different views about whether there's clear evidence that physical punishment is harmful to children. What evidence does the work of social services provide about whether physical punishment is actually harmful?

Obviously, what you'll all be aware of is that, as part of the consultation for this Bill, the Public Policy Institute did a further piece of research to look at the impact of physical punishment on children. A number of things that we know—we know from across the world that the evidence is that introducing legislation or changing legislation in this way improves children's positions within their families. What we know is that children themselves, as Alastair has already referred to, really find physical punishment demeaning and harmful, and for children it is an emotionally damaging experience. Now, there may be disagreement about that, there will be different views on that, but that's the voice of the child in this debate. The voice of the child is very clear that physical punishment is for them harmful. I think what we would also say is that, in the world that we work in, it's part of a continuum, and, whilst this is an element of how children are cared for, what we see is a continuum where an acceptance of how we treat children in a particular way perpetuates throughout our work. By changing this, it helps that shift to that absolute recognition that our children must be cared for in a way that is physically safe in all dimensions for them.

Okay, thank you. We've had evidence from the equal protection network that the reasonable punishment defence undermines child protection and fails to protect children because it permits an arbitrary level of violence, which invades children's physical integrity, making it a potential pathway to more serious physical or sexual abuse, and you did refer to that just now. Is there anything you want to add on that?

I would echo that. I think there is something in this that is about our culture, about how we see our children. It is about how we see our smallest and most vulnerable people, and if it is acceptable it opens the door to those other, more extreme versions of violence, which then complicates the issue for us. This is about clarity, and, whilst there is an argument that this is a small episode for a child, it's not a small episode for a child, it is a major episode for a child, and I think absolutely, as you said, the potential for it then to lead on, and over gradation and time to increase the risk for children, is clearly there.


Obviously, what you'll all be aware of is that, as part of the consultation for this Bill, the Public Policy Institute did a further piece of research to look at the impact of physical punishment on children. A number of things that we know—we know from across the world that the evidence is that introducing legislation or changing legislation in this way improves children's positions within their families. What we know is that children themselves, as Alastair has already referred to, really find physical punishment demeaning and harmful, and for children it is an emotionally damaging experience. Now, there may be disagreement about that, there will be different views on that, but that's the voice of the child in this debate. The voice of the child is very clear that physical punishment is for them harmful. I think what we would also say is that, in the world that we work in, it's part of a continuum, and, whilst this is an element of how children are cared for, what we see is a continuum where an acceptance of how we treat children in a particular way perpetuates throughout our work. By changing this, it helps that shift to that absolute recognition that our children must be cared for in a way that is physically safe in all dimensions for them.

Okay, thank you. We've had evidence from the equal protection network that the reasonable punishment defence undermines child protection and fails to protect children because it permits an arbitrary level of violence, which invades children's physical integrity, making it a potential pathway to more serious physical or sexual abuse, and you did refer to that just now. Is there anything you want to add on that?

I would echo that. I think there is something in this that is about our culture, about how we see our children. It is about how we see our smallest and most vulnerable people, and if it is acceptable it opens the door to those other, more extreme versions of violence, which then complicates the issue for us. This is about clarity, and, whilst there is an argument that this is a small episode for a child, it's not a small episode for a child, it is a major episode for a child, and I think absolutely, as you said, the potential for it then to lead on, and over gradation and time to increase the risk for children, is clearly there.

Okay, thank you. The final question from me: your written evidence emphasises the need for greater clarity around the definition of what constitutes corporal punishment, but that contrasts with what we've been told by the children's commissioner and the equal protection network, who've emphasised the importance of simplicity in the Bill. How do you respond to that view, and is what you're calling for essential to be on the face of the Bill?


Okay, thank you. We've had evidence from the equal protection network that the reasonable punishment defence undermines child protection and fails to protect children because it permits an arbitrary level of violence, which invades children's physical integrity, making it a potential pathway to more serious physical or sexual abuse, and you did refer to that just now. Is there anything you want to add on that?

I would echo that. I think there is something in this that is about our culture, about how we see our children. It is about how we see our smallest and most vulnerable people, and if it is acceptable it opens the door to those other, more extreme versions of violence, which then complicates the issue for us. This is about clarity, and, whilst there is an argument that this is a small episode for a child, it's not a small episode for a child, it is a major episode for a child, and I think absolutely, as you said, the potential for it then to lead on, and over gradation and time to increase the risk for children, is clearly there.

Okay, thank you. The final question from me: your written evidence emphasises the need for greater clarity around the definition of what constitutes corporal punishment, but that contrasts with what we've been told by the children's commissioner and the equal protection network, who've emphasised the importance of simplicity in the Bill. How do you respond to that view, and is what you're calling for essential to be on the face of the Bill?

It's not essential for it to be on the face of the Bill. What we would like to see is discussion within the implementation phase for that nuancing. Absolutely agree in terms of simplicity—I think that is really important—and I've already mentioned clarity. What we don't want to do is further confuse the position. We know that the legislation in different countries has done that, and there are ways that you can do it, but what we would welcome is an opportunity during the implementation phase for discussion.


I would echo that. I think there is something in this that is about our culture, about how we see our children. It is about how we see our smallest and most vulnerable people, and if it is acceptable it opens the door to those other, more extreme versions of violence, which then complicates the issue for us. This is about clarity, and, whilst there is an argument that this is a small episode for a child, it's not a small episode for a child, it is a major episode for a child, and I think absolutely, as you said, the potential for it then to lead on, and over gradation and time to increase the risk for children, is clearly there.

Okay, thank you. The final question from me: your written evidence emphasises the need for greater clarity around the definition of what constitutes corporal punishment, but that contrasts with what we've been told by the children's commissioner and the equal protection network, who've emphasised the importance of simplicity in the Bill. How do you respond to that view, and is what you're calling for essential to be on the face of the Bill?

It's not essential for it to be on the face of the Bill. What we would like to see is discussion within the implementation phase for that nuancing. Absolutely agree in terms of simplicity—I think that is really important—and I've already mentioned clarity. What we don't want to do is further confuse the position. We know that the legislation in different countries has done that, and there are ways that you can do it, but what we would welcome is an opportunity during the implementation phase for discussion.


Okay, thank you. The final question from me: your written evidence emphasises the need for greater clarity around the definition of what constitutes corporal punishment, but that contrasts with what we've been told by the children's commissioner and the equal protection network, who've emphasised the importance of simplicity in the Bill. How do you respond to that view, and is what you're calling for essential to be on the face of the Bill?

It's not essential for it to be on the face of the Bill. What we would like to see is discussion within the implementation phase for that nuancing. Absolutely agree in terms of simplicity—I think that is really important—and I've already mentioned clarity. What we don't want to do is further confuse the position. We know that the legislation in different countries has done that, and there are ways that you can do it, but what we would welcome is an opportunity during the implementation phase for discussion.

And, as a principle, obviously we would welcome full involvement, and we know there's the commitment from Welsh Government to full involvement in the implementation, because, as with every piece of legislation, implementation is the most important part, and we would want to ensure there is that commitment to a major awareness-raising campaign, and there is that from Welsh Government, because we need to take families, carers and parents with us on this. Also we need to ensure that there is that support available to parents and carers that do sometimes struggle with parenting, and that needs to be a universal offer across Wales. If we're to progress with this, that has to be an option that is offered to every parent in Wales.


It's not essential for it to be on the face of the Bill. What we would like to see is discussion within the implementation phase for that nuancing. Absolutely agree in terms of simplicity—I think that is really important—and I've already mentioned clarity. What we don't want to do is further confuse the position. We know that the legislation in different countries has done that, and there are ways that you can do it, but what we would welcome is an opportunity during the implementation phase for discussion.

And, as a principle, obviously we would welcome full involvement, and we know there's the commitment from Welsh Government to full involvement in the implementation, because, as with every piece of legislation, implementation is the most important part, and we would want to ensure there is that commitment to a major awareness-raising campaign, and there is that from Welsh Government, because we need to take families, carers and parents with us on this. Also we need to ensure that there is that support available to parents and carers that do sometimes struggle with parenting, and that needs to be a universal offer across Wales. If we're to progress with this, that has to be an option that is offered to every parent in Wales.


And, as a principle, obviously we would welcome full involvement, and we know there's the commitment from Welsh Government to full involvement in the implementation, because, as with every piece of legislation, implementation is the most important part, and we would want to ensure there is that commitment to a major awareness-raising campaign, and there is that from Welsh Government, because we need to take families, carers and parents with us on this. Also we need to ensure that there is that support available to parents and carers that do sometimes struggle with parenting, and that needs to be a universal offer across Wales. If we're to progress with this, that has to be an option that is offered to every parent in Wales.

Local authorities have already been very heavily involved in terms of looking at this Bill and exploring what the issues are and the discussions and looking at what the implications from a local authority perspective will be, as Huw describes, both in terms of the awareness raising, early support and intervention and prevention services for families against the backdrop of the current issues that we have in local government, but also awareness raising—because absolutely it is key that families come with us on this journey. This is not an imposition. This is embracing a culture and a value system for our children.


And, as a principle, obviously we would welcome full involvement, and we know there's the commitment from Welsh Government to full involvement in the implementation, because, as with every piece of legislation, implementation is the most important part, and we would want to ensure there is that commitment to a major awareness-raising campaign, and there is that from Welsh Government, because we need to take families, carers and parents with us on this. Also we need to ensure that there is that support available to parents and carers that do sometimes struggle with parenting, and that needs to be a universal offer across Wales. If we're to progress with this, that has to be an option that is offered to every parent in Wales.

Local authorities have already been very heavily involved in terms of looking at this Bill and exploring what the issues are and the discussions and looking at what the implications from a local authority perspective will be, as Huw describes, both in terms of the awareness raising, early support and intervention and prevention services for families against the backdrop of the current issues that we have in local government, but also awareness raising—because absolutely it is key that families come with us on this journey. This is not an imposition. This is embracing a culture and a value system for our children.

Okay, thank you. I've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden on the implementation of the Bill.


Local authorities have already been very heavily involved in terms of looking at this Bill and exploring what the issues are and the discussions and looking at what the implications from a local authority perspective will be, as Huw describes, both in terms of the awareness raising, early support and intervention and prevention services for families against the backdrop of the current issues that we have in local government, but also awareness raising—because absolutely it is key that families come with us on this journey. This is not an imposition. This is embracing a culture and a value system for our children.

Okay, thank you. I've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden on the implementation of the Bill.

Thank you, Chair. So, you've pre-empted me, Huw.


Local authorities have already been very heavily involved in terms of looking at this Bill and exploring what the issues are and the discussions and looking at what the implications from a local authority perspective will be, as Huw describes, both in terms of the awareness raising, early support and intervention and prevention services for families against the backdrop of the current issues that we have in local government, but also awareness raising—because absolutely it is key that families come with us on this journey. This is not an imposition. This is embracing a culture and a value system for our children.

Okay, thank you. I've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden on the implementation of the Bill.

Thank you, Chair. So, you've pre-empted me, Huw.

Right. Sorry. I've got good eyesight; I can't see—. [Laughter.]


Okay, thank you. I've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden on the implementation of the Bill.

Thank you, Chair. So, you've pre-empted me, Huw.

Right. Sorry. I've got good eyesight; I can't see—. [Laughter.]

You've already said, obviously, that you're looking towards working with Welsh Government in terms of its implementation. What's been your role so far in terms of the implementation of the Bill—local authorities generally, now? Have you had a role? Has Welsh Government been involving you in discussions around the introduction of the Bill so far?


Thank you, Chair. So, you've pre-empted me, Huw.

Right. Sorry. I've got good eyesight; I can't see—. [Laughter.]

You've already said, obviously, that you're looking towards working with Welsh Government in terms of its implementation. What's been your role so far in terms of the implementation of the Bill—local authorities generally, now? Have you had a role? Has Welsh Government been involving you in discussions around the introduction of the Bill so far?

Yes. So, obviously we were consulted—a key consultee—but also our officials have worked very closely with Welsh Government officials to make sure this is implemented successfully, if it is progressed.


Right. Sorry. I've got good eyesight; I can't see—. [Laughter.]

You've already said, obviously, that you're looking towards working with Welsh Government in terms of its implementation. What's been your role so far in terms of the implementation of the Bill—local authorities generally, now? Have you had a role? Has Welsh Government been involving you in discussions around the introduction of the Bill so far?

Yes. So, obviously we were consulted—a key consultee—but also our officials have worked very closely with Welsh Government officials to make sure this is implemented successfully, if it is progressed.

Our involvement with this, from a social services perspective, goes back over two years, directly in working towards this point, never mind the history in terms of work towards this area. But, very directly in relation to this Bill, we were first involved at least two years ago, to recollect, and that was in a series of workshops with other agencies, for example Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service Cymru and the police, and looking in real depth at what the implications would be for us as agencies to look at what the likely trajectory would be in terms of our pathways for referral into our services and what that might mean for us. And then particularly, for example, with CAFCASS Cymru in relation to private law, what the fallout might be, and then what, if anything—and that's the discussion that we need to have—that could mean for children's services in particular, given the pressures that we're already under. So, we've been in constant, I suppose, involvement in terms of the Bill already, as part of the consultation, in terms of the focus groups and in terms of direct work with Welsh Government officials to take this forward. And we are absolutely committed to continuing with that work.


You've already said, obviously, that you're looking towards working with Welsh Government in terms of its implementation. What's been your role so far in terms of the implementation of the Bill—local authorities generally, now? Have you had a role? Has Welsh Government been involving you in discussions around the introduction of the Bill so far?

Yes. So, obviously we were consulted—a key consultee—but also our officials have worked very closely with Welsh Government officials to make sure this is implemented successfully, if it is progressed.

Our involvement with this, from a social services perspective, goes back over two years, directly in working towards this point, never mind the history in terms of work towards this area. But, very directly in relation to this Bill, we were first involved at least two years ago, to recollect, and that was in a series of workshops with other agencies, for example Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service Cymru and the police, and looking in real depth at what the implications would be for us as agencies to look at what the likely trajectory would be in terms of our pathways for referral into our services and what that might mean for us. And then particularly, for example, with CAFCASS Cymru in relation to private law, what the fallout might be, and then what, if anything—and that's the discussion that we need to have—that could mean for children's services in particular, given the pressures that we're already under. So, we've been in constant, I suppose, involvement in terms of the Bill already, as part of the consultation, in terms of the focus groups and in terms of direct work with Welsh Government officials to take this forward. And we are absolutely committed to continuing with that work.

Okay. You touched there on the pressures that you're already under, which we fully appreciate, but you also mentioned in answers to Lynne Neagle earlier on that you welcomed the Bill in terms of its clarity. So, are you confident that the Bill can be implemented without any major impact on your capacity to deal with it?


Yes. So, obviously we were consulted—a key consultee—but also our officials have worked very closely with Welsh Government officials to make sure this is implemented successfully, if it is progressed.

Our involvement with this, from a social services perspective, goes back over two years, directly in working towards this point, never mind the history in terms of work towards this area. But, very directly in relation to this Bill, we were first involved at least two years ago, to recollect, and that was in a series of workshops with other agencies, for example Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service Cymru and the police, and looking in real depth at what the implications would be for us as agencies to look at what the likely trajectory would be in terms of our pathways for referral into our services and what that might mean for us. And then particularly, for example, with CAFCASS Cymru in relation to private law, what the fallout might be, and then what, if anything—and that's the discussion that we need to have—that could mean for children's services in particular, given the pressures that we're already under. So, we've been in constant, I suppose, involvement in terms of the Bill already, as part of the consultation, in terms of the focus groups and in terms of direct work with Welsh Government officials to take this forward. And we are absolutely committed to continuing with that work.

Okay. You touched there on the pressures that you're already under, which we fully appreciate, but you also mentioned in answers to Lynne Neagle earlier on that you welcomed the Bill in terms of its clarity. So, are you confident that the Bill can be implemented without any major impact on your capacity to deal with it?

We've done—. A number of local authorities—my own included, Newport City Council, has done some work to look at what the likely impact would be and then actually to look at what some of that costing would need to be. Further work is needed on that area, and that needs to be carried out during the implementation phase. I think what we've done is we've looked internationally at what the impact has been elsewhere when similar legislation has been introduced to try and gauge, but that's difficult to do in terms of comparable nations and size and also different systems. And obviously our approach in terms of children and pedagogy is very different from some of the nations that have already done this. I wouldn't like to say one way or the other, because I think, in terms of that culture shift, it could be a double impact on us in terms of increased referrals because of increased awareness, but it could also be, I suppose, as Huw alludes to, that, if we're looking at ensuring greater awareness of preventative services and support services for parents, actually people coming to the fore and asking us for those services as well. So, at this stage, I think what we would want to say is that we continue to be fully involved in the implementation phase, to look at what the cost implications for that could be, and not just for the local authorities but also the police, CAFCASS Cymru, for third sector organisations involved in preventative services. I don't think any of that should undermine the position in terms of children and their rights within our society. So, a difficult answer, in the sense that—


Our involvement with this, from a social services perspective, goes back over two years, directly in working towards this point, never mind the history in terms of work towards this area. But, very directly in relation to this Bill, we were first involved at least two years ago, to recollect, and that was in a series of workshops with other agencies, for example Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service Cymru and the police, and looking in real depth at what the implications would be for us as agencies to look at what the likely trajectory would be in terms of our pathways for referral into our services and what that might mean for us. And then particularly, for example, with CAFCASS Cymru in relation to private law, what the fallout might be, and then what, if anything—and that's the discussion that we need to have—that could mean for children's services in particular, given the pressures that we're already under. So, we've been in constant, I suppose, involvement in terms of the Bill already, as part of the consultation, in terms of the focus groups and in terms of direct work with Welsh Government officials to take this forward. And we are absolutely committed to continuing with that work.

Okay. You touched there on the pressures that you're already under, which we fully appreciate, but you also mentioned in answers to Lynne Neagle earlier on that you welcomed the Bill in terms of its clarity. So, are you confident that the Bill can be implemented without any major impact on your capacity to deal with it?

We've done—. A number of local authorities—my own included, Newport City Council, has done some work to look at what the likely impact would be and then actually to look at what some of that costing would need to be. Further work is needed on that area, and that needs to be carried out during the implementation phase. I think what we've done is we've looked internationally at what the impact has been elsewhere when similar legislation has been introduced to try and gauge, but that's difficult to do in terms of comparable nations and size and also different systems. And obviously our approach in terms of children and pedagogy is very different from some of the nations that have already done this. I wouldn't like to say one way or the other, because I think, in terms of that culture shift, it could be a double impact on us in terms of increased referrals because of increased awareness, but it could also be, I suppose, as Huw alludes to, that, if we're looking at ensuring greater awareness of preventative services and support services for parents, actually people coming to the fore and asking us for those services as well. So, at this stage, I think what we would want to say is that we continue to be fully involved in the implementation phase, to look at what the cost implications for that could be, and not just for the local authorities but also the police, CAFCASS Cymru, for third sector organisations involved in preventative services. I don't think any of that should undermine the position in terms of children and their rights within our society. So, a difficult answer, in the sense that—

No, I understand. What you're saying is that this is a piece of legislation that, in your view, is a good piece of legislation. It's setting out to, hopefully, achieve what the purpose of it is and you will deliver what you need to. Can I ask you whether, then, you've also given thought to the impact on—we've talked about social services, but the impact on other services, like housing, education and so on? You're obviously coming at it from slightly different angles in other sections.


Okay. You touched there on the pressures that you're already under, which we fully appreciate, but you also mentioned in answers to Lynne Neagle earlier on that you welcomed the Bill in terms of its clarity. So, are you confident that the Bill can be implemented without any major impact on your capacity to deal with it?

We've done—. A number of local authorities—my own included, Newport City Council, has done some work to look at what the likely impact would be and then actually to look at what some of that costing would need to be. Further work is needed on that area, and that needs to be carried out during the implementation phase. I think what we've done is we've looked internationally at what the impact has been elsewhere when similar legislation has been introduced to try and gauge, but that's difficult to do in terms of comparable nations and size and also different systems. And obviously our approach in terms of children and pedagogy is very different from some of the nations that have already done this. I wouldn't like to say one way or the other, because I think, in terms of that culture shift, it could be a double impact on us in terms of increased referrals because of increased awareness, but it could also be, I suppose, as Huw alludes to, that, if we're looking at ensuring greater awareness of preventative services and support services for parents, actually people coming to the fore and asking us for those services as well. So, at this stage, I think what we would want to say is that we continue to be fully involved in the implementation phase, to look at what the cost implications for that could be, and not just for the local authorities but also the police, CAFCASS Cymru, for third sector organisations involved in preventative services. I don't think any of that should undermine the position in terms of children and their rights within our society. So, a difficult answer, in the sense that—

No, I understand. What you're saying is that this is a piece of legislation that, in your view, is a good piece of legislation. It's setting out to, hopefully, achieve what the purpose of it is and you will deliver what you need to. Can I ask you whether, then, you've also given thought to the impact on—we've talked about social services, but the impact on other services, like housing, education and so on? You're obviously coming at it from slightly different angles in other sections.

We are part of the universal service for children, and we very much work in co-operation with the WLGA and our social care colleagues, and we've been part of that consultation. In terms of education, the main changes, or adaptations, would be around training and awareness. And, in terms of the Bill, there needs to be the clarity—ambiguity would be bad—in terms of making sure that safeguarding leads within all schools have the right training and support. So, really, that's the key element there, and then obviously the preventative services for the parents that schools can signpost, and sometimes possibly even host, in terms of being community schools. These positive parenting approaches that—. I have colleagues who have worked in that area for many years and see the benefits in how those positive parenting approaches make a difference to families.


We've done—. A number of local authorities—my own included, Newport City Council, has done some work to look at what the likely impact would be and then actually to look at what some of that costing would need to be. Further work is needed on that area, and that needs to be carried out during the implementation phase. I think what we've done is we've looked internationally at what the impact has been elsewhere when similar legislation has been introduced to try and gauge, but that's difficult to do in terms of comparable nations and size and also different systems. And obviously our approach in terms of children and pedagogy is very different from some of the nations that have already done this. I wouldn't like to say one way or the other, because I think, in terms of that culture shift, it could be a double impact on us in terms of increased referrals because of increased awareness, but it could also be, I suppose, as Huw alludes to, that, if we're looking at ensuring greater awareness of preventative services and support services for parents, actually people coming to the fore and asking us for those services as well. So, at this stage, I think what we would want to say is that we continue to be fully involved in the implementation phase, to look at what the cost implications for that could be, and not just for the local authorities but also the police, CAFCASS Cymru, for third sector organisations involved in preventative services. I don't think any of that should undermine the position in terms of children and their rights within our society. So, a difficult answer, in the sense that—

No, I understand. What you're saying is that this is a piece of legislation that, in your view, is a good piece of legislation. It's setting out to, hopefully, achieve what the purpose of it is and you will deliver what you need to. Can I ask you whether, then, you've also given thought to the impact on—we've talked about social services, but the impact on other services, like housing, education and so on? You're obviously coming at it from slightly different angles in other sections.

We are part of the universal service for children, and we very much work in co-operation with the WLGA and our social care colleagues, and we've been part of that consultation. In terms of education, the main changes, or adaptations, would be around training and awareness. And, in terms of the Bill, there needs to be the clarity—ambiguity would be bad—in terms of making sure that safeguarding leads within all schools have the right training and support. So, really, that's the key element there, and then obviously the preventative services for the parents that schools can signpost, and sometimes possibly even host, in terms of being community schools. These positive parenting approaches that—. I have colleagues who have worked in that area for many years and see the benefits in how those positive parenting approaches make a difference to families.

So, from your point of view, it's awareness raising, is it?


No, I understand. What you're saying is that this is a piece of legislation that, in your view, is a good piece of legislation. It's setting out to, hopefully, achieve what the purpose of it is and you will deliver what you need to. Can I ask you whether, then, you've also given thought to the impact on—we've talked about social services, but the impact on other services, like housing, education and so on? You're obviously coming at it from slightly different angles in other sections.

We are part of the universal service for children, and we very much work in co-operation with the WLGA and our social care colleagues, and we've been part of that consultation. In terms of education, the main changes, or adaptations, would be around training and awareness. And, in terms of the Bill, there needs to be the clarity—ambiguity would be bad—in terms of making sure that safeguarding leads within all schools have the right training and support. So, really, that's the key element there, and then obviously the preventative services for the parents that schools can signpost, and sometimes possibly even host, in terms of being community schools. These positive parenting approaches that—. I have colleagues who have worked in that area for many years and see the benefits in how those positive parenting approaches make a difference to families.

So, from your point of view, it's awareness raising, is it?

It's awareness raising; it's making sure that professionals are fully briefed on necessary changes, that there's very little ambiguity, that we are aware that—. We still have that duty to report whenever there is any safeguarding concern. That'll still be part of the all-Wales child protection procedures. That won't change, and that duty is always going to be there for all our professionals. But that awareness raising and training will be the key, and then, obviously, working in co-operation with our colleagues.


We are part of the universal service for children, and we very much work in co-operation with the WLGA and our social care colleagues, and we've been part of that consultation. In terms of education, the main changes, or adaptations, would be around training and awareness. And, in terms of the Bill, there needs to be the clarity—ambiguity would be bad—in terms of making sure that safeguarding leads within all schools have the right training and support. So, really, that's the key element there, and then obviously the preventative services for the parents that schools can signpost, and sometimes possibly even host, in terms of being community schools. These positive parenting approaches that—. I have colleagues who have worked in that area for many years and see the benefits in how those positive parenting approaches make a difference to families.

So, from your point of view, it's awareness raising, is it?

It's awareness raising; it's making sure that professionals are fully briefed on necessary changes, that there's very little ambiguity, that we are aware that—. We still have that duty to report whenever there is any safeguarding concern. That'll still be part of the all-Wales child protection procedures. That won't change, and that duty is always going to be there for all our professionals. But that awareness raising and training will be the key, and then, obviously, working in co-operation with our colleagues.

Okay, I understand that. Have you been given an indication of how long you've got between Royal Assent and implementation, and whether you've thought through any of the key milestones that need to be implemented?


So, from your point of view, it's awareness raising, is it?

It's awareness raising; it's making sure that professionals are fully briefed on necessary changes, that there's very little ambiguity, that we are aware that—. We still have that duty to report whenever there is any safeguarding concern. That'll still be part of the all-Wales child protection procedures. That won't change, and that duty is always going to be there for all our professionals. But that awareness raising and training will be the key, and then, obviously, working in co-operation with our colleagues.

Okay, I understand that. Have you been given an indication of how long you've got between Royal Assent and implementation, and whether you've thought through any of the key milestones that need to be implemented?

There's a group proposed that would be a strategic leadership group in the steering group that we're part of, which is now laying out what would happen after Royal Assent if that is given. So, we will work towards that.


It's awareness raising; it's making sure that professionals are fully briefed on necessary changes, that there's very little ambiguity, that we are aware that—. We still have that duty to report whenever there is any safeguarding concern. That'll still be part of the all-Wales child protection procedures. That won't change, and that duty is always going to be there for all our professionals. But that awareness raising and training will be the key, and then, obviously, working in co-operation with our colleagues.

Okay, I understand that. Have you been given an indication of how long you've got between Royal Assent and implementation, and whether you've thought through any of the key milestones that need to be implemented?

There's a group proposed that would be a strategic leadership group in the steering group that we're part of, which is now laying out what would happen after Royal Assent if that is given. So, we will work towards that.

Okay. My final question, Chair, is about some of the responses we've had to this committee that say that the state should not get involved in family life—I'm sure you've heard those views—unless it's in the most serious circumstances. To what extent do you think that this Bill undermines the existing local authority responsibilities, or don't you?


Okay, I understand that. Have you been given an indication of how long you've got between Royal Assent and implementation, and whether you've thought through any of the key milestones that need to be implemented?

There's a group proposed that would be a strategic leadership group in the steering group that we're part of, which is now laying out what would happen after Royal Assent if that is given. So, we will work towards that.

Okay. My final question, Chair, is about some of the responses we've had to this committee that say that the state should not get involved in family life—I'm sure you've heard those views—unless it's in the most serious circumstances. To what extent do you think that this Bill undermines the existing local authority responsibilities, or don't you?

The state's paramount role is to protect children from harm. That is our legal responsibility, it's our moral responsibility, and we will discharge that. And there is obviously a view—it's a view that is enshrined in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child—that physical punishment, physical harm to a child is harm to a child, and we should be preventing that and act to prevent that. That would be the position of the Welsh Local Government Association, and we also respect the mandate that Members of the National Assembly for Wales have too. And we believe that children can be raised by parents without recourse to physical punishment, effectively, and we'd support parents in that. We do not believe that in the 50 nations across the world where such legislation exists that the state is interfering in family life unnecessarily. We believe this action reflects a cultural change, a sea change that's taken place in Wales over the last 30 to 40 years, where the vast majority of parents now say that they do not use it themselves, they do not support it, and we believe this is actually a reflection of what has happened in Welsh society. We support Assembly Members in the view that the natural progression of that is that children's rights are protected across Wales.


There's a group proposed that would be a strategic leadership group in the steering group that we're part of, which is now laying out what would happen after Royal Assent if that is given. So, we will work towards that.

Okay. My final question, Chair, is about some of the responses we've had to this committee that say that the state should not get involved in family life—I'm sure you've heard those views—unless it's in the most serious circumstances. To what extent do you think that this Bill undermines the existing local authority responsibilities, or don't you?

The state's paramount role is to protect children from harm. That is our legal responsibility, it's our moral responsibility, and we will discharge that. And there is obviously a view—it's a view that is enshrined in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child—that physical punishment, physical harm to a child is harm to a child, and we should be preventing that and act to prevent that. That would be the position of the Welsh Local Government Association, and we also respect the mandate that Members of the National Assembly for Wales have too. And we believe that children can be raised by parents without recourse to physical punishment, effectively, and we'd support parents in that. We do not believe that in the 50 nations across the world where such legislation exists that the state is interfering in family life unnecessarily. We believe this action reflects a cultural change, a sea change that's taken place in Wales over the last 30 to 40 years, where the vast majority of parents now say that they do not use it themselves, they do not support it, and we believe this is actually a reflection of what has happened in Welsh society. We support Assembly Members in the view that the natural progression of that is that children's rights are protected across Wales.

So, I've got largely positive feedback from you in terms of the Bill and its intentions, and so on. Do you foresee any unintended consequences for this Bill?


Okay. My final question, Chair, is about some of the responses we've had to this committee that say that the state should not get involved in family life—I'm sure you've heard those views—unless it's in the most serious circumstances. To what extent do you think that this Bill undermines the existing local authority responsibilities, or don't you?

The state's paramount role is to protect children from harm. That is our legal responsibility, it's our moral responsibility, and we will discharge that. And there is obviously a view—it's a view that is enshrined in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child—that physical punishment, physical harm to a child is harm to a child, and we should be preventing that and act to prevent that. That would be the position of the Welsh Local Government Association, and we also respect the mandate that Members of the National Assembly for Wales have too. And we believe that children can be raised by parents without recourse to physical punishment, effectively, and we'd support parents in that. We do not believe that in the 50 nations across the world where such legislation exists that the state is interfering in family life unnecessarily. We believe this action reflects a cultural change, a sea change that's taken place in Wales over the last 30 to 40 years, where the vast majority of parents now say that they do not use it themselves, they do not support it, and we believe this is actually a reflection of what has happened in Welsh society. We support Assembly Members in the view that the natural progression of that is that children's rights are protected across Wales.

So, I've got largely positive feedback from you in terms of the Bill and its intentions, and so on. Do you foresee any unintended consequences for this Bill?

If we implement it carefully, if we implement it with the right resources, then I hope not. I think not. But as with every piece of legislation, it is about the implementation, it is about the cultural change as well, and that's why I cannot overstress the importance of making sure that resources are made available, because our social services departments—children's social services in particular—are overstretched. They are at breaking point—make no bones about it—and they are dealing with children who are facing serious harm and neglect. We are having record numbers of contacts from police, from teachers, from doctors and, of course, from children themselves who are experiencing that harm and neglect. And obviously, we want to focus our energy and our attention on those children. Equally, though, we don't want to lose sight of those families and children that are experiencing significant problems, but who we want to support through our early intervention and prevention programmes, and that is why it is important that there is investment in those programmes, so that children do not end up in that terrible position where we have to, for their safety, take them from their birth families to protect them. And the reality is, in Wales, that we are doing that to more children than we've done for a long time, and the numbers are growing across Wales. And that is only because of the most appalling neglect and abuse, because there is no way that any judge would permit us to act to make a child safe if it was not for that fact, and the facts are there. So, I don't want that focus to be lost, but, of course, we welcome and understand the need to progress this piece of legislation.


The state's paramount role is to protect children from harm. That is our legal responsibility, it's our moral responsibility, and we will discharge that. And there is obviously a view—it's a view that is enshrined in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child—that physical punishment, physical harm to a child is harm to a child, and we should be preventing that and act to prevent that. That would be the position of the Welsh Local Government Association, and we also respect the mandate that Members of the National Assembly for Wales have too. And we believe that children can be raised by parents without recourse to physical punishment, effectively, and we'd support parents in that. We do not believe that in the 50 nations across the world where such legislation exists that the state is interfering in family life unnecessarily. We believe this action reflects a cultural change, a sea change that's taken place in Wales over the last 30 to 40 years, where the vast majority of parents now say that they do not use it themselves, they do not support it, and we believe this is actually a reflection of what has happened in Welsh society. We support Assembly Members in the view that the natural progression of that is that children's rights are protected across Wales.

So, I've got largely positive feedback from you in terms of the Bill and its intentions, and so on. Do you foresee any unintended consequences for this Bill?

If we implement it carefully, if we implement it with the right resources, then I hope not. I think not. But as with every piece of legislation, it is about the implementation, it is about the cultural change as well, and that's why I cannot overstress the importance of making sure that resources are made available, because our social services departments—children's social services in particular—are overstretched. They are at breaking point—make no bones about it—and they are dealing with children who are facing serious harm and neglect. We are having record numbers of contacts from police, from teachers, from doctors and, of course, from children themselves who are experiencing that harm and neglect. And obviously, we want to focus our energy and our attention on those children. Equally, though, we don't want to lose sight of those families and children that are experiencing significant problems, but who we want to support through our early intervention and prevention programmes, and that is why it is important that there is investment in those programmes, so that children do not end up in that terrible position where we have to, for their safety, take them from their birth families to protect them. And the reality is, in Wales, that we are doing that to more children than we've done for a long time, and the numbers are growing across Wales. And that is only because of the most appalling neglect and abuse, because there is no way that any judge would permit us to act to make a child safe if it was not for that fact, and the facts are there. So, I don't want that focus to be lost, but, of course, we welcome and understand the need to progress this piece of legislation.

That rise that you talk about here, is that due to more interventions, greater awareness, more incidents? I'm trying to link this to the Bill in terms of whether the Bill is actually going to give you more work to do in those areas.


So, I've got largely positive feedback from you in terms of the Bill and its intentions, and so on. Do you foresee any unintended consequences for this Bill?

If we implement it carefully, if we implement it with the right resources, then I hope not. I think not. But as with every piece of legislation, it is about the implementation, it is about the cultural change as well, and that's why I cannot overstress the importance of making sure that resources are made available, because our social services departments—children's social services in particular—are overstretched. They are at breaking point—make no bones about it—and they are dealing with children who are facing serious harm and neglect. We are having record numbers of contacts from police, from teachers, from doctors and, of course, from children themselves who are experiencing that harm and neglect. And obviously, we want to focus our energy and our attention on those children. Equally, though, we don't want to lose sight of those families and children that are experiencing significant problems, but who we want to support through our early intervention and prevention programmes, and that is why it is important that there is investment in those programmes, so that children do not end up in that terrible position where we have to, for their safety, take them from their birth families to protect them. And the reality is, in Wales, that we are doing that to more children than we've done for a long time, and the numbers are growing across Wales. And that is only because of the most appalling neglect and abuse, because there is no way that any judge would permit us to act to make a child safe if it was not for that fact, and the facts are there. So, I don't want that focus to be lost, but, of course, we welcome and understand the need to progress this piece of legislation.

That rise that you talk about here, is that due to more interventions, greater awareness, more incidents? I'm trying to link this to the Bill in terms of whether the Bill is actually going to give you more work to do in those areas.

On the reasons for the rise in the numbers of looked-after children in Wales, which are higher than those in England, and also the numbers of contacts that we have across the local authorities, the work of the care crisis review, which was completed last year; the work of Isabelle Trowler, who's the chief social worker in England; countless research and reports that have taken place in the last 18 months; and currently the public law working group, under the auspices of the president of the family court, would all indicate that it's multifactorial. So, what you have is a range of reasons that have led to the increasing numbers of children becoming looked after across England and Wales. What you can't do is identify a single reason. There have been headlines that have said, 'Is it increased austerity?' That is clearly a part of this. Is it in Wales an increased awareness of adverse childhood experiences and the emphasis of the impact on children of, for example, domestic abuse? Is it because of our understanding of what happens to children in those households? All of that research would say it's all of those things. And then, when you also add in changes in our practice with our colleagues in the judiciary, changes in our police service, but also changes in our preventative services, you've got that whole range of elements. And there is going on across the local authorities and Welsh Government a huge amount of work to try to address and understand that, and then to ameliorate that. Children who need to be in care for safety need to be in care, but what we have to do is get to a point where fewer children come into care and we're able to protect them, firstly, and secondly where those children who are in care are cared for in a way that delivers the best possible outcomes for them. So, there is no simple answer unfortunately. I think, in terms of this Bill and unintended consequences, I agree absolutely with everything that Huw has said. My job is around children at that far end, but what this Bill does is it brings clarity. It brings a clarity even for those children at that very far end. It takes away even that point of discussion that this could possibly be okay, and I think that's important to hang on to.