Right. So if we  if we fed the hand - segmentation to Javier 's and it doesn't work , then we know something 's wrong.

uh  Yeah. The  N n Yeah. No. The demonstration by hand. Segmentation by hand I  I  I think is the fast experiment.

Yeah. I think that 's probably worthwhile doing.


uh  Yeah. The  N n Yeah. No. The demonstration by hand. Segmentation by hand I  I  I think is the fast experiment.

Yeah. I think that 's probably worthwhile doing.


Yeah. I think that 's probably worthwhile doing.


this kind o emph emphasises parameter and Gaussian


this kind o emph emphasises parameter and Gaussian

Yep. Y do you know where his software is ? Have you used it at all ?


Yep. Y do you know where his software is ? Have you used it at all ?


Yep. Y do you know where his software is ? Have you used it at all ?

So. I  I have as well , so if you need  need help let me know.


So. I  I have as well , so if you need  need help let me know.


Good afternoon. Sorry I'm a little late.


That's possible on uh this time of day. Starts at three o'clock. Uh


That's possible on uh this time of day. Starts at three o'clock. Uh

Uh , let me see. Our fourth and last meeting. There he is. Yes. Okay this our last meeting. In this meeting we will discuss our final design. And we will do some evaluation about the , not only the product , but also the project. And then we're going to close the project today as well. So after this you will be uh free to go and uh spend all your money.


That's possible on uh this time of day. Starts at three o'clock. Uh

Uh , let me see. Our fourth and last meeting. There he is. Yes. Okay this our last meeting. In this meeting we will discuss our final design. And we will do some evaluation about the , not only the product , but also the project. And then we're going to close the project today as well. So after this you will be uh free to go and uh spend all your money.

And this uh design , detailed design meeting uh we will discuss uh the look-and-feel of the design , the usability interface design , and we will do the product evaluation. Um , in order to do that we have this agenda. We'll have the prototype presentation first. Then we will set up some evaluation cri um criteria.  Then we will look at the finance. Uh we will have to see if everything we wanna do is also possible within our budget. Because everything costs money , and the more functions you wanna have the more money it will cost. So we have to see if it fits within the twelve and a half Euro per remote. But we will see that later. Then we will do the project uh evaluation , and the closing after that.


Uh , let me see. Our fourth and last meeting. There he is. Yes. Okay this our last meeting. In this meeting we will discuss our final design. And we will do some evaluation about the , not only the product , but also the project. And then we're going to close the project today as well. So after this you will be uh free to go and uh spend all your money.

And this uh design , detailed design meeting uh we will discuss uh the look-and-feel of the design , the usability interface design , and we will do the product evaluation. Um , in order to do that we have this agenda. We'll have the prototype presentation first. Then we will set up some evaluation cri um criteria.  Then we will look at the finance. Uh we will have to see if everything we wanna do is also possible within our budget. Because everything costs money , and the more functions you wanna have the more money it will cost. So we have to see if it fits within the twelve and a half Euro per remote. But we will see that later. Then we will do the project uh evaluation , and the closing after that.

We've got forty minutes. So we will be finished at half past three. But first um we will do the  this is prototype presentation. So , if some yeah if somebody wants step forward.


Uh , let me see. Our fourth and last meeting. There he is. Yes. Okay this our last meeting. In this meeting we will discuss our final design. And we will do some evaluation about the , not only the product , but also the project. And then we're going to close the project today as well. So after this you will be uh free to go and uh spend all your money.

And this uh design , detailed design meeting uh we will discuss uh the look-and-feel of the design , the usability interface design , and we will do the product evaluation. Um , in order to do that we have this agenda. We'll have the prototype presentation first. Then we will set up some evaluation cri um criteria.  Then we will look at the finance. Uh we will have to see if everything we wanna do is also possible within our budget. Because everything costs money , and the more functions you wanna have the more money it will cost. So we have to see if it fits within the twelve and a half Euro per remote. But we will see that later. Then we will do the project uh evaluation , and the closing after that.

We've got forty minutes. So we will be finished at half past three. But first um we will do the  this is prototype presentation. So , if some yeah if somebody wants step forward.

Okay. Well this is what me and Richard came up with. The default spot for the on-off button. The mute button just below that. Then there's the volume and channel selectors. Simple plus-minus button. Uh we thought of a help button. If you hold it and you press another button , uh the help goes to the L_C_D_ screen. Then there's the zero to  one to zero buttons. A button for teletext. A button for the subtitles. And the company logo. So it's rather simple prototype. And uh we'll have to see from testing uh how the users take it.


And this uh design , detailed design meeting uh we will discuss uh the look-and-feel of the design , the usability interface design , and we will do the product evaluation. Um , in order to do that we have this agenda. We'll have the prototype presentation first. Then we will set up some evaluation cri um criteria.  Then we will look at the finance. Uh we will have to see if everything we wanna do is also possible within our budget. Because everything costs money , and the more functions you wanna have the more money it will cost. So we have to see if it fits within the twelve and a half Euro per remote. But we will see that later. Then we will do the project uh evaluation , and the closing after that.

We've got forty minutes. So we will be finished at half past three. But first um we will do the  this is prototype presentation. So , if some yeah if somebody wants step forward.

Okay. Well this is what me and Richard came up with. The default spot for the on-off button. The mute button just below that. Then there's the volume and channel selectors. Simple plus-minus button. Uh we thought of a help button. If you hold it and you press another button , uh the help goes to the L_C_D_ screen. Then there's the zero to  one to zero buttons. A button for teletext. A button for the subtitles. And the company logo. So it's rather simple prototype. And uh we'll have to see from testing uh how the users take it.


We've got forty minutes. So we will be finished at half past three. But first um we will do the  this is prototype presentation. So , if some yeah if somebody wants step forward.

Okay. Well this is what me and Richard came up with. The default spot for the on-off button. The mute button just below that. Then there's the volume and channel selectors. Simple plus-minus button. Uh we thought of a help button. If you hold it and you press another button , uh the help goes to the L_C_D_ screen. Then there's the zero to  one to zero buttons. A button for teletext. A button for the subtitles. And the company logo. So it's rather simple prototype. And uh we'll have to see from testing uh how the users take it.

Um ,  is this the moment where we ask or can ask questions about the functionality ?


Okay. Well this is what me and Richard came up with. The default spot for the on-off button. The mute button just below that. Then there's the volume and channel selectors. Simple plus-minus button. Uh we thought of a help button. If you hold it and you press another button , uh the help goes to the L_C_D_ screen. Then there's the zero to  one to zero buttons. A button for teletext. A button for the subtitles. And the company logo. So it's rather simple prototype. And uh we'll have to see from testing uh how the users take it.

Um ,  is this the moment where we ask or can ask questions about the functionality ?


Um ,  is this the moment where we ask or can ask questions about the functionality ?


Um ,  is this the moment where we ask or can ask questions about the functionality ?

Um , when you're in teletext there usually are buttons where you just you just press it and you g go to the next teletext page.


Um , when you're in teletext there usually are buttons where you just you just press it and you g go to the next teletext page.

Uh , that's just uh the normal uh as th as the normal uh remote controls uh  So um  You put it uh  you um came in uh page uh one hundred. Now you can use the normal uh one to zero buttons.


Um , when you're in teletext there usually are buttons where you just you just press it and you g go to the next teletext page.

Uh , that's just uh the normal uh as th as the normal uh remote controls uh  So um  You put it uh  you um came in uh page uh one hundred. Now you can use the normal uh one to zero buttons.

And you  But you can also uh use the um button th for uh changing the the channel. S so uh the shifting uh button. Uh for uh yeah shif shifting up in uh on t on t uh teletext , and shifting uh down. So


Uh , that's just uh the normal uh as th as the normal uh remote controls uh  So um  You put it uh  you um came in uh page uh one hundred. Now you can use the normal uh one to zero buttons.

And you  But you can also uh use the um button th for uh changing the the channel. S so uh the shifting uh button. Uh for uh yeah shif shifting up in uh on t on t uh teletext , and shifting uh down. So


And you  But you can also uh use the um button th for uh changing the the channel. S so uh the shifting uh button. Uh for uh yeah shif shifting up in uh on t on t uh teletext , and shifting uh down. So

Okay. Uh but um I thought in a few meetings earlier we uh uh tried to keep it uh simple. Uh just a few buttons and large buttons.


Okay. Uh but um I thought in a few meetings earlier we uh uh tried to keep it uh simple. Uh just a few buttons and large buttons.

But uh I think these are altogether quite a quite a few buttons. So I'm wondering if we if we neely  really need all of those buttons.


Okay. Uh but um I thought in a few meetings earlier we uh uh tried to keep it uh simple. Uh just a few buttons and large buttons.

But uh I think these are altogether quite a quite a few buttons. So I'm wondering if we if we neely  really need all of those buttons.

I think if you look at most controls , they've got more buttons than this.


But uh I think these are altogether quite a quite a few buttons. So I'm wondering if we if we neely  really need all of those buttons.

I think if you look at most controls , they've got more buttons than this.


I think if you look at most controls , they've got more buttons than this.

And well the on-off button , it's it's a necessity.


And well the on-off button , it's it's a necessity.


And well the on-off button , it's it's a necessity.

You can't drop that one. The volume and channel buttons , you need you obviously need those those.


You can't drop that one. The volume and channel buttons , you need you obviously need those those.


You can't drop that one. The volume and channel buttons , you need you obviously need those those.

The mute button could be replaced uh by pressing the volume-down button twice. So we could cancel that one. I think the help button really is necessary


The mute button could be replaced uh by pressing the volume-down button twice. So we could cancel that one. I think the help button really is necessary

because there's no other way to know when someone wants to know what a button does.


because there's no other way to know when someone wants to know what a button does.

Uh , or you can build in uh when you press uh one button uh uh


Uh , or you can build in uh when you press uh one button uh uh


But m Yeah. We disc discuss that already. But uh we think uh old people uh don't know that uh option. So uh they just put in uh put  press uh the button and uh


But m Yeah. We disc discuss that already. But uh we think uh old people uh don't know that uh option. So uh they just put in uh put  press uh the button and uh

Well ,  you can't leave out the number buttons I guess.


Well ,  you can't leave out the number buttons I guess.


Well ,  you can't leave out the number buttons I guess.

Uh teletext and subtitles are yeah necessary.


Uh teletext and subtitles are yeah necessary.


Yeah. Think so. That's what I pointed out earlier. If you just make a control for just the T_V_ there's just not much to gain here.


Yeah. Think so. That's what I pointed out earlier. If you just make a control for just the T_V_ there's just not much to gain here.

Okay. So we had somebody about th interfa Something about the design of the buttons there ?


Okay. So we had somebody about th interfa Something about the design of the buttons there ?


It's rather hard to draw on the white-board.


It's rather hard to draw on the white-board.

But they're supposed to be equal sized , round , with a with a little logo on it for the for the volume , the the triangle and stuff.


But they're supposed to be equal sized , round , with a with a little logo on it for the for the volume , the the triangle and stuff.


Uh yeah and now we don't need uh LEDs or um  Y uh


Uh yeah and now we don't need uh LEDs or um  Y uh

s some uh remote controls uh do it also ,


s some uh remote controls uh do it also ,

but um uh because we use the little display we don't uh have to use it. Uh so


but um uh because we use the little display we don't uh have to use it. Uh so

So and for the materials we've just chosen for rubber buttons. With a a different colour than the case.


So and for the materials we've just chosen for rubber buttons. With a a different colour than the case.


That's nice. Then because we only have thirty minutes left , I will move on to the finance part , which is pretty exciting , to see if it's all possible what we wanna do. And I can tell you that we're going to have a pretty hard time producing this for twelve and a half Euros.


That's nice. Then because we only have thirty minutes left , I will move on to the finance part , which is pretty exciting , to see if it's all possible what we wanna do. And I can tell you that we're going to have a pretty hard time producing this for twelve and a half Euros.

If we see  I don't know if I've filled in correctly , so just correct me if you see uh something wrong. I counted two batteries. But maybe we can also use one. I don't know if it's possible.


If we see  I don't know if I've filled in correctly , so just correct me if you see uh something wrong. I counted two batteries. But maybe we can also use one. I don't know if it's possible.


We need the advanced chip. So there's not much to uh  to save there.


We need the advanced chip. So there's not much to uh  to save there.

Here we have the single curves. Uh we can see that the difference between uncurved and the single curved is one Euro. Um ,


Here we have the single curves. Uh we can see that the difference between uncurved and the single curved is one Euro. Um ,

I don't know , but I think the single curved is good for design , and also for the display to have a prominent place on the remote control.


I don't know , but I think the single curved is good for design , and also for the display to have a prominent place on the remote control.


Then we have the case material supplements. It's plastic. It's the cheapest one we need. So that's uh not much to save either. But then the biggest costs are the buttons. So maybe we really should try to discard some buttons to uh keep our costs low.


Then we have the case material supplements. It's plastic. It's the cheapest one we need. So that's uh not much to save either. But then the biggest costs are the buttons. So maybe we really should try to discard some buttons to uh keep our costs low.

Because you have to  we will have to get the twelve and a half Euros at the end. Um ,


Because you have to  we will have to get the twelve and a half Euros at the end. Um ,

so if we  Let's fir first count the buttons we have now.


so if we  Let's fir first count the buttons we have now.

Because I   Sixteen. Nah , that will be even more then. Eighteen Euros. So ,


Because I   Sixteen. Nah , that will be even more then. Eighteen Euros. So ,


I think we can uh discard the help and the mute button uh by pressing down volume long , or pressing down a a number long.


I think we can uh discard the help and the mute button uh by pressing down volume long , or pressing down a a number long.

That saves us uh one Euro already. 'Cause then we have got fifteen I think ?


That saves us uh one Euro already. 'Cause then we have got fifteen I think ?


Uh , d I assume you'd count the volume and channel thingies for two buttons each , right ?


Uh , d I assume you'd count the volume and channel thingies for two buttons each , right ?

Well , think actually there're two buttons ,


Well , think actually there're two buttons ,


Well , think actually there're two buttons ,

But , um  Yeah. There were uh two uh for one big button. But they are uh more expensive than the small ones. Uh , yeah. So


But , um  Yeah. There were uh two uh for one big button. But they are uh more expensive than the small ones. Uh , yeah. So

Yeah but th it's not stated in this files.


But , um  Yeah. There were uh two uh for one big button. But they are uh more expensive than the small ones. Uh , yeah. So

Yeah but th it's not stated in this files.

So maybe we can we can even make one button with the volume and the channel in one , by pressing


Yeah but th it's not stated in this files.

So maybe we can we can even make one button with the volume and the channel in one , by pressing

Well I was thinking , maybe you could just integrate three of those numbers to one button.


So maybe we can we can even make one button with the volume and the channel in one , by pressing

Well I was thinking , maybe you could just integrate three of those numbers to one button.


Well I was thinking , maybe you could just integrate three of those numbers to one button.

So  And it's good for the design as well. So you can make  Uh let's see. If you make this   Looks a bit like uh a cross.  Plus. Min.


So  And it's good for the design as well. So you can make  Uh let's see. If you make this   Looks a bit like uh a cross.  Plus. Min.

But I don't don't know if if it's cheaper.


But I don't don't know if if it's cheaper.


we've still got four buttons , but just um  So


we've still got four buttons , but just um  So

Yeah th I think they count uh the materials.


we've still got four buttons , but just um  So

Yeah th I think they count uh the materials.

You got uh not not a butt button itself , but uh on the um


Yeah th I think they count uh the materials.

You got uh not not a butt button itself , but uh on the um

Yeah. On the chip you've got still uh four uh four buttons.


You got uh not not a butt button itself , but uh on the um

Yeah. On the chip you've got still uh four uh four buttons.


Yeah. On the chip you've got still uh four uh four buttons.


But I think because we have the advanced chip


But , I think this really is four buttons anyhow.


But , I think this really is four buttons anyhow.

Yeah. Maybe it is , but then it seems to me that it's impossible to get the twelve and a half Euros. Also the L_C_ display , I think it's , I think it's too expensive for the display we use.


Yeah. Maybe it is , but then it seems to me that it's impossible to get the twelve and a half Euros. Also the L_C_ display , I think it's , I think it's too expensive for the display we use.


If we leave out the display we can also save money on the chip.


If we leave out the display we can also save money on the chip.

That's right , but what's the big advantage of our remote then ?


That's right , but what's the big advantage of our remote then ?

Which isn't the  the docking station isn't even in this c s schematic.


Which isn't the  the docking station isn't even in this c s schematic.


Which isn't the  the docking station isn't even in this c s schematic.

That's extra.  That's extra. That's right.


That's extra.  That's extra. That's right.

Maybe we should to a different supplier.


Maybe we should to a different supplier.

Poland. Something.  Polish supplier. Don't you think we can , if we can count this as v as one button , and integrate th uh these buttons in three , then we save a lot of money as well.


Poland. Something.  Polish supplier. Don't you think we can , if we can count this as v as one button , and integrate th uh these buttons in three , then we save a lot of money as well.

We we could save money on it. But would it make the remote more usable for elderly people ?


Poland. Something.  Polish supplier. Don't you think we can , if we can count this as v as one button , and integrate th uh these buttons in three , then we save a lot of money as well.

We we could save money on it. But would it make the remote more usable for elderly people ?

My mother can't even send send an S_M_S_ message.


We we could save money on it. But would it make the remote more usable for elderly people ?

My mother can't even send send an S_M_S_ message.


My mother can't even send send an S_M_S_ message.


My mother can't even send send an S_M_S_ message.

Are we gonna buy a um a remote control uh when you can uh use it ?


Are we gonna buy a um a remote control uh when you can uh use it ?


Are we gonna buy a um a remote control uh when you can uh use it ?

So um  Yeah. We m uh we must um stay below the um below um twelve uh fifty or  Can't uh go um


So um  Yeah. We m uh we must um stay below the um below um twelve uh fifty or  Can't uh go um


Well , since the market research indicated that older people spend their money easier , more easy , maybe it's feasible to just put the price of the remote up a little. Especially since we have those nice features.


Well , since the market research indicated that older people spend their money easier , more easy , maybe it's feasible to just put the price of the remote up a little. Especially since we have those nice features.

Yeah but uh we have to stick to the twelve and a half Euros. We don't have any more budget to develop it.


Yeah but uh we have to stick to the twelve and a half Euros. We don't have any more budget to develop it.


But it is possible to make one uh for uh twelve fifty.


But it is possible to make one uh for uh twelve fifty.

It is. If you leave out the L_C_ display. And if you use less buttons. Say  Or you can take the single chip.


It is. If you leave out the L_C_ display. And if you use less buttons. Say  Or you can take the single chip.


Uh , wi with n Oh , with uh attractive uh o options.


Uh , wi with n Oh , with uh attractive uh o options.

So uh , you can stay uh below uh twelve fifty. So


So uh , you can stay uh below uh twelve fifty. So


Basically becoming a choice between like either a good remote and a higher production cost , or just any other remote control.


Basically becoming a choice between like either a good remote and a higher production cost , or just any other remote control.

Or we can leave out the ten buttons and take one scroll wheel for the programme numbers. Then w


Or we can leave out the ten buttons and take one scroll wheel for the programme numbers. Then w


And and see. If we have this one and we've got the advanced  W uh , we're getting close.


Then you will  Or maybe you can um scroll. If you scroll you will see the numbers on the L_C_D_ display. Until you've got the right number , then you push it.


Then you will  Or maybe you can um scroll. If you scroll you will see the numbers on the L_C_D_ display. Until you've got the right number , then you push it.

That would bring up the price of the scroll-wheel also. Integrated scroll-wheel push-button.


That would bring up the price of the scroll-wheel also. Integrated scroll-wheel push-button.


That would bring up the price of the scroll-wheel also. Integrated scroll-wheel push-button.

Okay but then you you can push uh some other button as well.


Okay but then you you can push uh some other button as well.


Okay but then you you can push uh some other button as well.

You could just not scroll for a half a second.


Okay but then you you can push uh some other button as well.

You could just not scroll for a half a second.

Yeah. That's right. So if you scroll to a number and then you wait a half second , then it g turns to that channel.


You could just not scroll for a half a second.

Yeah. That's right. So if you scroll to a number and then you wait a half second , then it g turns to that channel.


You could just not scroll for a half a second.

Yeah. That's right. So if you scroll to a number and then you wait a half second , then it g turns to that channel.

I think that would be like the end of our usability.


Yeah. That's right. So if you scroll to a number and then you wait a half second , then it g turns to that channel.

I think that would be like the end of our usability.

But it would definitely crop cost , a lot.


I think that would be like the end of our usability.

But it would definitely crop cost , a lot.


But it would definitely crop cost , a lot.

And we need the battery.  And the regular chip is not possible ? It has to be advanced ?


And we need the battery.  And the regular chip is not possible ? It has to be advanced ?

If you want to use an L_C_D_ screen you you need an advanced chip , yes.


If you want to use an L_C_D_ screen you you need an advanced chip , yes.

And we can save a Euro by a flat design. That's an option we can


And we can save a Euro by a flat design. That's an option we can


Yeah if you v could just leave out one more button.


Yeah if you v could just leave out one more button.

Yeah , or we have to uh skip the subtitle uh button.


Yeah , or we have to uh skip the subtitle uh button.

Yeah but I think that's  That is a big advantage ,


Yeah but I think that's  That is a big advantage ,


Can we use  can't we integrate the teletext and the subtitles in one button ?


Well , think it's pretty much the teletext subtitles are


Well , think it's pretty much the teletext subtitles are

right now you just push the teletext button , go to page eight eight eight ,


right now you just push the teletext button , go to page eight eight eight ,


right now you just push the teletext button , go to page eight eight eight ,

and teletext disappears. But the subtitles stay there.


and teletext disappears. But the subtitles stay there.

But if you push the teletext button twice


and teletext disappears. But the subtitles stay there.

But if you push the teletext button twice

What if you have to scroll to page eighty eight ? Eight hundred eighty eight.


But if you push the teletext button twice

What if you have to scroll to page eighty eight ? Eight hundred eighty eight.

It's uh  One m uh one b uh , a few buttons.


What if you have to scroll to page eighty eight ? Eight hundred eighty eight.

It's uh  One m uh one b uh , a few buttons.


It's uh  One m uh one b uh , a few buttons.

Well , that could be just uh like the scroll to eight , click , scroll to eight , click , scroll to eight , click.


Well , that could be just uh like the scroll to eight , click , scroll to eight , click , scroll to eight , click.

But then again that would be d j just pretty much not an option for older people ,


But then again that would be d j just pretty much not an option for older people ,

who don't even know what a scroll-wheel is.


who don't even know what a scroll-wheel is.


who don't even know what a scroll-wheel is.

Holding a remote with  which they expect to have like ten buttons for the numbers one to zero.


Holding a remote with  which they expect to have like ten buttons for the numbers one to zero.

With only five buttons on it. And a scroll-wheel.


Holding a remote with  which they expect to have like ten buttons for the numbers one to zero.

With only five buttons on it. And a scroll-wheel.

I think if you make a good advertisement uh on television and in the in the guide , you can explain to the people how to use the scroll wheel. If you just make it real simple. Because it saves it saves a lot of money. And we can keep our L_C_D_ screen , which can provide extra information. How to use the scroll wheel. How to use the other bu buttons as subtitles.


With only five buttons on it. And a scroll-wheel.

I think if you make a good advertisement uh on television and in the in the guide , you can explain to the people how to use the scroll wheel. If you just make it real simple. Because it saves it saves a lot of money. And we can keep our L_C_D_ screen , which can provide extra information. How to use the scroll wheel. How to use the other bu buttons as subtitles.


I think if you make a good advertisement uh on television and in the in the guide , you can explain to the people how to use the scroll wheel. If you just make it real simple. Because it saves it saves a lot of money. And we can keep our L_C_D_ screen , which can provide extra information. How to use the scroll wheel. How to use the other bu buttons as subtitles.

And it's good for the innovative design as well. If you would erase these. Mm eraser ? And we put uh  Looks a bit odd maybe.


And it's good for the innovative design as well. If you would erase these. Mm eraser ? And we put uh  Looks a bit odd maybe.


And it's good for the innovative design as well. If you would erase these. Mm eraser ? And we put uh  Looks a bit odd maybe.

Then , yeah. We've got the scroll-wheel. One , two , three , four , five buttons , if we erase this one. And these are two buttons then.


Then , yeah. We've got the scroll-wheel. One , two , three , four , five buttons , if we erase this one. And these are two buttons then.

We could make two buttons out of that. And just um  If you press the volume button you can control the volume with the scroll-wheel.


Then , yeah. We've got the scroll-wheel. One , two , three , four , five buttons , if we erase this one. And these are two buttons then.

We could make two buttons out of that. And just um  If you press the volume button you can control the volume with the scroll-wheel.

So that would save two buttons. If you do the same for the channel.


We could make two buttons out of that. And just um  If you press the volume button you can control the volume with the scroll-wheel.

So that would save two buttons. If you do the same for the channel.

Yeah. That's really a good good idea , I think. And it will make the use of the scroll wheel uh more obvious indeed.


So that would save two buttons. If you do the same for the channel.

Yeah. That's really a good good idea , I think. And it will make the use of the scroll wheel uh more obvious indeed.


So that would save two buttons. If you do the same for the channel.

Yeah. That's really a good good idea , I think. And it will make the use of the scroll wheel uh more obvious indeed.

So we make one for the volume , one for the channel. Plus scroll. That's right.


Yeah. That's really a good good idea , I think. And it will make the use of the scroll wheel uh more obvious indeed.

So we make one for the volume , one for the channel. Plus scroll. That's right.


So we make one for the volume , one for the channel. Plus scroll. That's right.

So we've got one , two , three. Yeah , we can leave the teletext in if we want. That's m that's better.


So we've got one , two , three. Yeah , we can leave the teletext in if we want. That's m that's better.


If we leave out all those buttons , perhaps you can go with the flat flat case. And make it smaller overall.


If we leave out all those buttons , perhaps you can go with the flat flat case. And make it smaller overall.

So if you put the the volume and channel buttons on the same height as the on-off button , the screen right behi under that , than the scroll button


So if you put the the volume and channel buttons on the same height as the on-off button , the screen right behi under that , than the scroll button


So we can decrease this one to four buttons.


So we can decrease this one to four buttons.

But uh , you can make a f quite a big uh remote remote control for uh just the same price as a small one.


But uh , you can make a f quite a big uh remote remote control for uh just the same price as a small one.


But uh , you can make a f quite a big uh remote remote control for uh just the same price as a small one.

Just uh you only have to pay for the double curved or single curved. It uh it's a bit uh


But uh , you can make a f quite a big uh remote remote control for uh just the same price as a small one.

Just uh you only have to pay for the double curved or single curved. It uh it's a bit uh

Yeah. Yeah. It's uh it's more the moulds in which they are being made , I think. Single curved is really easy to just fill in.


Just uh you only have to pay for the double curved or single curved. It uh it's a bit uh

Yeah. Yeah. It's uh it's more the moulds in which they are being made , I think. Single curved is really easy to just fill in.


Just uh you only have to pay for the double curved or single curved. It uh it's a bit uh

Yeah. Yeah. It's uh it's more the moulds in which they are being made , I think. Single curved is really easy to just fill in.

And cases come right out of the machine.


Yeah. Yeah. It's uh it's more the moulds in which they are being made , I think. Single curved is really easy to just fill in.

And cases come right out of the machine.

And single curved you have to have a different uh different machine , than a flat one. I think this is a really easy one. Um , what does everybody think about a flat or a single curved design ? Freek , what do you think ?


And cases come right out of the machine.

And single curved you have to have a different uh different machine , than a flat one. I think this is a really easy one. Um , what does everybody think about a flat or a single curved design ? Freek , what do you think ?

Well , I still think we should go for the single curve design.


And single curved you have to have a different uh different machine , than a flat one. I think this is a really easy one. Um , what does everybody think about a flat or a single curved design ? Freek , what do you think ?

Well , I still think we should go for the single curve design.

But then again ,  all these changes are not really okay with me.


Well , I still think we should go for the single curve design.

But then again ,  all these changes are not really okay with me.


But then again ,  all these changes are not really okay with me.


I'd rather just go to the board and get us to spend  eighteen dollars a a remote.


I'd rather just go to the board and get us to spend  eighteen dollars a a remote.

Ask for more money. Yeah. Yeah. I am agreeing with the usability. Yeah.


I'd rather just go to the board and get us to spend  eighteen dollars a a remote.

Ask for more money. Yeah. Yeah. I am agreeing with the usability. Yeah.

Or do some market research and see what the options are.


I'd rather just go to the board and get us to spend  eighteen dollars a a remote.

Ask for more money. Yeah. Yeah. I am agreeing with the usability. Yeah.

Or do some market research and see what the options are.

Yeah. But th um I think we can then keep the single curved one. Just to express our L_C_D_ screen a bit more.


Ask for more money. Yeah. Yeah. I am agreeing with the usability. Yeah.

Or do some market research and see what the options are.

Yeah. But th um I think we can then keep the single curved one. Just to express our L_C_D_ screen a bit more.


Or do some market research and see what the options are.

Yeah. But th um I think we can then keep the single curved one. Just to express our L_C_D_ screen a bit more.


Yeah. But th um I think we can then keep the single curved one. Just to express our L_C_D_ screen a bit more.

So people will use it more , and especially for the help functions ,


So people will use it more , and especially for the help functions ,


So people will use it more , and especially for the help functions ,

it will be good if we have scroll bar , scroll button. It will be necessary to have good help function , as well. So this is scroll. I think it was better to have this price list a bit earlier.  Before we went on to the to the whole design.


it will be good if we have scroll bar , scroll button. It will be necessary to have good help function , as well. So this is scroll. I think it was better to have this price list a bit earlier.  Before we went on to the to the whole design.


It's pretty different , if you saw the last one than  this one.


It's pretty different , if you saw the last one than  this one.

But this is not really like for the group we were making our remote.


But this is not really like for the group we were making our remote.

This will really require a lot of marketing to get this to sell.


This will really require a lot of marketing to get this to sell.


This will really require a lot of marketing to get this to sell.

'Cause if older people like familiar forms and familiar stuff. This is not familiar for them.


'Cause if older people like familiar forms and familiar stuff. This is not familiar for them.


'Cause if older people like familiar forms and familiar stuff. This is not familiar for them.

So we're gonna have to do a lotta convincing them.


So we're gonna have to do a lotta convincing them.

But they know the scroll-buttons from uh old radios. Uh they cal also uh buttons like that for uh changing uh channels.


But they know the scroll-buttons from uh old radios. Uh they cal also uh buttons like that for uh changing uh channels.


We can stick it out , a bit. Like a old old buttons.


We can stick it out , a bit. Like a old old buttons.

Maybe that's recognisable for them as well. Yeah. That's a good one.


Maybe that's recognisable for them as well. Yeah. That's a good one.

So , I'm afraid we have to move on. And it's uh it's b uh less frightening , I think. If they see this design they think oh , there are only five buttons , and uh  But we will see.


So , I'm afraid we have to move on. And it's uh it's b uh less frightening , I think. If they see this design they think oh , there are only five buttons , and uh  But we will see.

That's true. Might uh  might be confusing too.


That's true. Might uh  might be confusing too.


That's true. Might uh  might be confusing too.

They'd be like , what ? Only five buttons ?


They'd be like , what ? Only five buttons ?


That's right. I would buy it if I was six.  No I don't know. What it costs under twelve and a half Euros ? No ? Uh , yes they are.


That's right. I would buy it if I was six.  No I don't know. What it costs under twelve and a half Euros ? No ? Uh , yes they are.

No. But we can go on with the project evaluation.


No. But we can go on with the project evaluation.

Let's see. I can sit down I think. We still have fifteen minutes left , so we're nice on schedule.


Let's see. I can sit down I think. We still have fifteen minutes left , so we're nice on schedule.


Let's see. I can sit down I think. We still have fifteen minutes left , so we're nice on schedule.

So um , I like set up all these criteria. And evaluation of the thingy.


So um , I like set up all these criteria. And evaluation of the thingy.

Evaluation criteria. That's right. That was the the point I forgot. I should


Evaluation criteria. That's right. That was the the point I forgot. I should


We've got five minutes I think for those criteria.


'Kay so I did some literature study study , and analysis of the requirements we set up earlier.


'Kay so I did some literature study study , and analysis of the requirements we set up earlier.

Translated it into criteria , which would be these. Um , is the remote fancy ? The shape , look and feel. Innovative ? What new functions are there ? Uh , easy to use ? Uh , learnability is a very important factor here. Uh , is it functional ? Are there not too many functions uh among the functions ? And are the those functions that are there , are they useful ? And the cost. The target group. Is the remote really for the group we're making it for ? And recognability. If our company is  If it is easily recognisable that our company made it ? And  So we're supposed to evaluate it right now.


Translated it into criteria , which would be these. Um , is the remote fancy ? The shape , look and feel. Innovative ? What new functions are there ? Uh , easy to use ? Uh , learnability is a very important factor here. Uh , is it functional ? Are there not too many functions uh among the functions ? And are the those functions that are there , are they useful ? And the cost. The target group. Is the remote really for the group we're making it for ? And recognability. If our company is  If it is easily recognisable that our company made it ? And  So we're supposed to evaluate it right now.

Let's see. Oh I have to say this was a little hard , because the minutes of our last meeting were not here.


Translated it into criteria , which would be these. Um , is the remote fancy ? The shape , look and feel. Innovative ? What new functions are there ? Uh , easy to use ? Uh , learnability is a very important factor here. Uh , is it functional ? Are there not too many functions uh among the functions ? And are the those functions that are there , are they useful ? And the cost. The target group. Is the remote really for the group we're making it for ? And recognability. If our company is  If it is easily recognisable that our company made it ? And  So we're supposed to evaluate it right now.

Let's see. Oh I have to say this was a little hard , because the minutes of our last meeting were not here.

Yeah , that's because my pen failed to upload his data.


Let's see. Oh I have to say this was a little hard , because the minutes of our last meeting were not here.

Yeah , that's because my pen failed to upload his data.


Yeah , that's because my pen failed to upload his data.


but it's uh it's giving errors by downloading the software.


but it's uh it's giving errors by downloading the software.

Is the design fancy , on a scale of one to seven ?


Is the design fancy , on a scale of one to seven ?


We all go for six ? Good. Um , is the design innovative ?


We all go for six ? Good. Um , is the design innovative ?

I think so , with our L_C_D_ screen , docking station , scroll-buttons.


I think so , with our L_C_D_ screen , docking station , scroll-buttons.


So we've got twenty cents for our docking station , huh ?


I would say four. Four or five between. Between four or five.


Is the design functional ? Um , do we have all functions that we want to include ?


Is the design functional ? Um , do we have all functions that we want to include ?

I think we do. Do we have too many functions ?


I think we do. Do we have too many functions ?


Seven. Oh , and do we um take care of the biggest frustrations of the remote control ? Like it getting lost and  R_S_I_ influences ?


I had them worked out. Mm. They are ugly , not very functional , and getting lost.


I had them worked out. Mm. They are ugly , not very functional , and getting lost.

Are the production costs within the preset limits ?


Are the production costs within the preset limits ?


Are the production costs within the preset limits ?

Does the design fit the group of focus ?


Does the design fit the group of focus ?


No I think with our new radio button , I think it's uh I think it's better.


I still  I think it's too m too fancy. Too too flashy.


I still  I think it's too m too fancy. Too too flashy.

I think a radio button is not exactly what older people expect to have a remote control.


I think a radio button is not exactly what older people expect to have a remote control.


'Kay. Is the company company recognisable ?


And they wanna put fashion in their products. Uh in the slogan of the company. And we have the removable front cases. So , I think it's very recognisable.


So that will be this. I was also supposed to calculate the score , but thought we would have another private thingy after this.


So that will be this. I was also supposed to calculate the score , but thought we would have another private thingy after this.

Is this  Like after this , are we done ? Or


Is this  Like after this , are we done ? Or

N We've gonna  We're going to evaluate it.


Is this  Like after this , are we done ? Or

N We've gonna  We're going to evaluate it.

We're gonna go to our other room again. Well , anyhow. These are seven factors times seven is forty something. Two ? No.


N We've gonna  We're going to evaluate it.

We're gonna go to our other room again. Well , anyhow. These are seven factors times seven is forty something. Two ? No.

Nine ? Uh , minus one. Minus three , minus four.  Minus four. So that would be minus eight. Forty one out of forty nine.


We're gonna go to our other room again. Well , anyhow. These are seven factors times seven is forty something. Two ? No.

Nine ? Uh , minus one. Minus three , minus four.  Minus four. So that would be minus eight. Forty one out of forty nine.

Forty one. That's  Around eighty percent.


Nine ? Uh , minus one. Minus three , minus four.  Minus four. So that would be minus eight. Forty one out of forty nine.

Forty one. That's  Around eighty percent.


Forty one. That's  Around eighty percent.

Guess I'll just type that in on the bottom here.


Guess I'll just type that in on the bottom here.

That's eighty four percent. I think that's a pretty nice score.


That's eighty four percent. I think that's a pretty nice score.


Hmm. 'Kay. So that will be the evaluation.


Hmm. 'Kay. So that will be the evaluation.

Thank you. So , that brings us to the project evaluation. Yep. Thank you.


Hmm. 'Kay. So that will be the evaluation.

Thank you. So , that brings us to the project evaluation. Yep. Thank you.

Project process. Did we move through the right phases , you think ?  Along the process ?


Thank you. So , that brings us to the project evaluation. Yep. Thank you.

Project process. Did we move through the right phases , you think ?  Along the process ?


Project process. Did we move through the right phases , you think ?  Along the process ?

Think we should have a should have had the finance thingy a lot earlier. In the design phase.


Think we should have a should have had the finance thingy a lot earlier. In the design phase.


Think we should have a should have had the finance thingy a lot earlier. In the design phase.

That's right. So lack of information about prices.


That's right. So lack of information about prices.


Okay. Uh  Okay. Satisfaction. Was there room for creativity ?


It's because of the finance sheet. Yeah.


It's because of the finance sheet. Yeah.

Yeah , there w there was enough room , but the finance uh


Yeah , there w there was enough room , but the finance uh


And I would've liked to go for the younger users also.


And I would've liked to go for the younger users also.

And just to be able to access internet and get something of your own.


And I would've liked to go for the younger users also.

And just to be able to access internet and get something of your own.

Restrictions. Internet access. 'Kay. Leadership. Was it clear what everybody had to do uh according to their roles and functions ? Yeah ?


And just to be able to access internet and get something of your own.

Restrictions. Internet access. 'Kay. Leadership. Was it clear what everybody had to do uh according to their roles and functions ? Yeah ?


Restrictions. Internet access. 'Kay. Leadership. Was it clear what everybody had to do uh according to their roles and functions ? Yeah ?


Teamwork ? Did it work out ? Working together ? Also , you  two of you with the uh last phase ?


The tasks are very structured , so you can just do step by step and it's very easy.


The tasks are very structured , so you can just do step by step and it's very easy.

tasks. Okay. Were the means sufficient for the tasks uh we had to do ? Or were they too much ?


tasks. Okay. Were the means sufficient for the tasks uh we had to do ? Or were they too much ?


tasks. Okay. Were the means sufficient for the tasks uh we had to do ? Or were they too much ?

Well , the smart-board , the d d drawing is just a pain in the ass , but  The digital the digital pen is very nice.


Well , the smart-board , the d d drawing is just a pain in the ass , but  The digital the digital pen is very nice.


Failed download. Smart-board was irritating.  So you rather wanted to have a flip-over ? Or something else ?


But if you want to share uh of uh when you make um a picture like this uh on the presentation , it's easier to uh share it with uh other people. Uh so uh


But if you want to share uh of uh when you make um a picture like this uh on the presentation , it's easier to uh share it with uh other people. Uh so uh

you can sh save it uh and uh put it on the internet , or uh uh in shared f uh folder or uh sh uh shared directory.


you can sh save it uh and uh put it on the internet , or uh uh in shared f uh folder or uh sh uh shared directory.


Uh you need a smart board uh application I think.


Uh you need a smart board uh application I think.

T can uh can you export it uh like a  Yeah.


T can uh can you export it uh like a  Yeah.

Yeah. Should be possible. Yeah you can export it as image.


Yeah. Should be possible. Yeah you can export it as image.


So the sharing of the information was uh was okay ?


That's nice. Have we found new ideas for having this kind of meetings ? Or


That's nice. Have we found new ideas for having this kind of meetings ? Or

Um , yeah maybe um uh when we n uh just uh give the numbers of of uh  Uh uh o one of uh out of s uh sev


That's nice. Have we found new ideas for having this kind of meetings ? Or

Um , yeah maybe um uh when we n uh just uh give the numbers of of uh  Uh uh o one of uh out of s uh sev

Um it's uh easier to uh to do the th things that are like that on a computer. Uh , so uh just l uh like uh at u university uh


Um , yeah maybe um uh when we n uh just uh give the numbers of of uh  Uh uh o one of uh out of s uh sev

Um it's uh easier to uh to do the th things that are like that on a computer. Uh , so uh just l uh like uh at u university uh

Yeah. So  Yeah. So everybody puts his own score.


Um it's uh easier to uh to do the th things that are like that on a computer. Uh , so uh just l uh like uh at u university uh

Yeah. So  Yeah. So everybody puts his own score.


Yeah. So  Yeah. So everybody puts his own score.


That's better. So that's uh  How do we call ? Evaluation criteria. Okay. Mm , any more ideas ? Or questions about the project ? Or about the product ?


That's better. So that's uh  How do we call ? Evaluation criteria. Okay. Mm , any more ideas ? Or questions about the project ? Or about the product ?

Because I think then that we get to our last sheet. Are the costs within the budget ?


Because I think then that we get to our last sheet. Are the costs within the budget ?


Considering we are not going to make a docking station.


Considering we are not going to make a docking station.

Do we  Docking station. That's a good point.


Considering we are not going to make a docking station.

Do we  Docking station. That's a good point.

But maybe because of the docking station the price of the remote can also be a little bit higher ?


Do we  Docking station. That's a good point.

But maybe because of the docking station the price of the remote can also be a little bit higher ?

Uh and I think you can compensate that as well.


But maybe because of the docking station the price of the remote can also be a little bit higher ?

Uh and I think you can compensate that as well.


Uh and I think you can compensate that as well.


Uh and I think you can compensate that as well.

So I think that shouldn't be the biggest problem , because it's very cheap to make as well.


So I think that shouldn't be the biggest problem , because it's very cheap to make as well.


So I think that shouldn't be the biggest problem , because it's very cheap to make as well.

Do we think we gonna get the twelve and a half million ?


Do we think we gonna get the twelve and a half million ?


Fifteen fifteen million. I think we will.  If we gonna export this product. It's innovative.


Fifteen fifteen million. I think we will.  If we gonna export this product. It's innovative.

Especially in America. People are pretty decadent. Sometimes.


Especially in America. People are pretty decadent. Sometimes.


Especially in America. People are pretty decadent. Sometimes.

Yeah , still I think  I mean if we're n gonna make a scroll-button anyway it'd be more for the younger people than for the older people.


Yeah , still I think  I mean if we're n gonna make a scroll-button anyway it'd be more for the younger people than for the older people.


Just put it on the market for everybody. You can you can change markets where by changing the front covers.


Just put it on the market for everybody. You can you can change markets where by changing the front covers.

That's one thing you can change it with.


That's one thing you can change it with.


That's one thing you can change it with.

So you can also try to uh reach the younger people by uh putting fancy covers on on the market. Just as a test. See how it works. That's I think a good advantage.


So you can also try to uh reach the younger people by uh putting fancy covers on on the market. Just as a test. See how it works. That's I think a good advantage.

Yeah , I think then it would be way more uh popular with younger people than it is , than would be with older people. Even if it were their covers.


So you can also try to uh reach the younger people by uh putting fancy covers on on the market. Just as a test. See how it works. That's I think a good advantage.

Yeah , I think then it would be way more uh popular with younger people than it is , than would be with older people. Even if it were their covers.

Yeah. Uh , uh then I think we can have our little celebration , right now.


Yeah , I think then it would be way more uh popular with younger people than it is , than would be with older people. Even if it were their covers.

Yeah. Uh , uh then I think we can have our little celebration , right now.


Yeah. Uh , uh then I think we can have our little celebration , right now.


Yeah. I think we still have to fit in one more questionnaire. I think.


Yeah. I think we still have to fit in one more questionnaire. I think.

I don't know. I didn't get a message from the from ending of the


I don't know. I didn't get a message from the from ending of the


Then we still have some questions. If somebody has some questions they can ask them now. Or we can put these in the project folder as well. Maybe that's


Hmm. This is another network , I guess. Does somebody see the project folder ?


Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received no apologies, although Dawn Bowden is running late. I'll take this opportunity to welcome Dawn formally to the committee but also to place on record our thanks to John Griffiths for his service to the committee. Are there any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. Item 2, then, this morning is a scrutiny session with a focus on higher and further education. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams, Cabinet Secretary for Education, Eluned Morgan, Minister for Welsh Language and Lifelong Learning, and Huw Morris, who is the group director of skills, higher education and lifelong learning. Thank you all for your attendance this morning. If you're okay with it, we'll go straight into questions. The first questions are from Suzy Davies.

Thank you, Chair. If we can just start with teacher training and teacher training for secondary school teachers in particular, obviously there's been what looks like a trend in recent years in filling the places for secondary school training. Obviously, this is at Welsh teacher training centres. Do you think there's still a problem recruiting teachers into the 300 priority places, or is there a trend where things are getting better?

Thank you, Suzy. I think, for this year's intake, although we're in touch with our providers, we're not in a position to be able to give figures for this year's intake for a couple of months. But what we have seen over recent years is that we are only recruiting to about 65 per cent of those targets. So, there is still a job of work to do to understand and to respond to those needs. So, what we're doing is first of all making sure that our ITE provision is world class, so that, actually, Welsh centres are the place to go to train to be a teacher. You'll be aware that we've recently been through an accreditation process for new ITE provision that will start in the next academic year. We have looked at financial incentives. It's not the whole answer, I think, to these issues, but it's part of a mixture of things that we need to do. You'll be aware that, for priority subjects, with graduates with the very highest levels of qualifications, those financial incentives are now £20,000 a year. We're also embarking on our first ever national ITE recruitment marketing exercise. We have initially done some work in the last year specifically targeting Welsh students in studying for priority subject degrees, e-mailing them, sending them materials to ask them to consider (1) becoming a teacher, and (2) crucially coming to do that training here in Wales. We are now part of a full national programme of ITE recruitment, giving people that idea that you can serve your nation and your community by training to be a teacher. So, there's a whole package of things we need to do. In January of this year I set up an advisory board on the recruitment and retention of teaching staff, and we are awaiting some reports from that advisory group on what they feel that we should do next.


Thank you, Chair. If we can just start with teacher training and teacher training for secondary school teachers in particular, obviously there's been what looks like a trend in recent years in filling the places for secondary school training. Obviously, this is at Welsh teacher training centres. Do you think there's still a problem recruiting teachers into the 300 priority places, or is there a trend where things are getting better?

Thank you, Suzy. I think, for this year's intake, although we're in touch with our providers, we're not in a position to be able to give figures for this year's intake for a couple of months. But what we have seen over recent years is that we are only recruiting to about 65 per cent of those targets. So, there is still a job of work to do to understand and to respond to those needs. So, what we're doing is first of all making sure that our ITE provision is world class, so that, actually, Welsh centres are the place to go to train to be a teacher. You'll be aware that we've recently been through an accreditation process for new ITE provision that will start in the next academic year. We have looked at financial incentives. It's not the whole answer, I think, to these issues, but it's part of a mixture of things that we need to do. You'll be aware that, for priority subjects, with graduates with the very highest levels of qualifications, those financial incentives are now £20,000 a year. We're also embarking on our first ever national ITE recruitment marketing exercise. We have initially done some work in the last year specifically targeting Welsh students in studying for priority subject degrees, e-mailing them, sending them materials to ask them to consider (1) becoming a teacher, and (2) crucially coming to do that training here in Wales. We are now part of a full national programme of ITE recruitment, giving people that idea that you can serve your nation and your community by training to be a teacher. So, there's a whole package of things we need to do. In January of this year I set up an advisory board on the recruitment and retention of teaching staff, and we are awaiting some reports from that advisory group on what they feel that we should do next.

Thank you for that answer. I can see there's a lot of activity, but what exactly is it responding to? Presumably, some research has been done about why people don't want to become teachers so that the answers you come up with are appropriate answers. I can't believe it's just about ITE, although this is very valuable, what you're talking about. Is there something that's running through our younger learners at the moment that makes them think that teaching isn't a profession they want to go into? Is that something that's happening just in Wales or is it happening elsewhere as well?


Thank you, Chair. If we can just start with teacher training and teacher training for secondary school teachers in particular, obviously there's been what looks like a trend in recent years in filling the places for secondary school training. Obviously, this is at Welsh teacher training centres. Do you think there's still a problem recruiting teachers into the 300 priority places, or is there a trend where things are getting better?

Thank you, Suzy. I think, for this year's intake, although we're in touch with our providers, we're not in a position to be able to give figures for this year's intake for a couple of months. But what we have seen over recent years is that we are only recruiting to about 65 per cent of those targets. So, there is still a job of work to do to understand and to respond to those needs. So, what we're doing is first of all making sure that our ITE provision is world class, so that, actually, Welsh centres are the place to go to train to be a teacher. You'll be aware that we've recently been through an accreditation process for new ITE provision that will start in the next academic year. We have looked at financial incentives. It's not the whole answer, I think, to these issues, but it's part of a mixture of things that we need to do. You'll be aware that, for priority subjects, with graduates with the very highest levels of qualifications, those financial incentives are now £20,000 a year. We're also embarking on our first ever national ITE recruitment marketing exercise. We have initially done some work in the last year specifically targeting Welsh students in studying for priority subject degrees, e-mailing them, sending them materials to ask them to consider (1) becoming a teacher, and (2) crucially coming to do that training here in Wales. We are now part of a full national programme of ITE recruitment, giving people that idea that you can serve your nation and your community by training to be a teacher. So, there's a whole package of things we need to do. In January of this year I set up an advisory board on the recruitment and retention of teaching staff, and we are awaiting some reports from that advisory group on what they feel that we should do next.

Thank you for that answer. I can see there's a lot of activity, but what exactly is it responding to? Presumably, some research has been done about why people don't want to become teachers so that the answers you come up with are appropriate answers. I can't believe it's just about ITE, although this is very valuable, what you're talking about. Is there something that's running through our younger learners at the moment that makes them think that teaching isn't a profession they want to go into? Is that something that's happening just in Wales or is it happening elsewhere as well?

No. I think what you will find is that this isn't a uniquely Welsh issue. I think they are suffering quite acute problems across the border, which proves to me that money isn't necessarily the entire answer, because, despite higher financial incentives to join ITE courses, they're not able to do that in England either. So, that proves to me—what the research does show—that it's not money alone that will get people onto these courses. Interestingly, I don't even think it's a UK problem. Recently, as you'll be aware via my written statement, I attended the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory, which is a system-to-system conference. If you talk to education systems in different parts of the world, the one common factor that we are all grappling with is teacher recruitment and retention. In the USA, they have seen a 40 per cent drop in the number of students training to be teachers. So, in the Californian system, significant teacher shortages, and in Oregon, Washington. I met with New York state—significant teacher recruitment and retention problems in New York state, and in Finland, Australia. So, this is a common issue across the globe, really. That's why we set up the advisory group under the chairmanship of Professor John Gardner—it's to understand what the issues are exactly that are preventing people or putting people off. One of the things that we have got strong performance in, and I think this is perhaps something that we're trying to follow up on, are employment-based routes into qualified teacher status—so, those are people who are training on the job. Those remain strong. There's high demand for those places, so much so that we've increased those places to 90 last year and 90 again this year, which says to me that—there's definitely a place for the traditional, 'Take a year off, do a postgraduate certificate in education in a university for a year'—actually, that type of course suits some students but it might be preventing other people from pursuing a qualification in teaching, which is why, of course, from next year, we will have our unique part-time PGCE route into qualification. So, that allows people to perhaps combine some of their employment opportunities, so they can earn while they learn, or maybe they've got caring responsibilities that prevent them from going to do a full-time course. I think that will give us an alternative route that people can take to gain qualified teacher status and work in our schools. So, there's no one thing, I think, that we can do that will solve this issue. But it is an international issue, I agree with that.


Thank you, Suzy. I think, for this year's intake, although we're in touch with our providers, we're not in a position to be able to give figures for this year's intake for a couple of months. But what we have seen over recent years is that we are only recruiting to about 65 per cent of those targets. So, there is still a job of work to do to understand and to respond to those needs. So, what we're doing is first of all making sure that our ITE provision is world class, so that, actually, Welsh centres are the place to go to train to be a teacher. You'll be aware that we've recently been through an accreditation process for new ITE provision that will start in the next academic year. We have looked at financial incentives. It's not the whole answer, I think, to these issues, but it's part of a mixture of things that we need to do. You'll be aware that, for priority subjects, with graduates with the very highest levels of qualifications, those financial incentives are now £20,000 a year. We're also embarking on our first ever national ITE recruitment marketing exercise. We have initially done some work in the last year specifically targeting Welsh students in studying for priority subject degrees, e-mailing them, sending them materials to ask them to consider (1) becoming a teacher, and (2) crucially coming to do that training here in Wales. We are now part of a full national programme of ITE recruitment, giving people that idea that you can serve your nation and your community by training to be a teacher. So, there's a whole package of things we need to do. In January of this year I set up an advisory board on the recruitment and retention of teaching staff, and we are awaiting some reports from that advisory group on what they feel that we should do next.

Thank you for that answer. I can see there's a lot of activity, but what exactly is it responding to? Presumably, some research has been done about why people don't want to become teachers so that the answers you come up with are appropriate answers. I can't believe it's just about ITE, although this is very valuable, what you're talking about. Is there something that's running through our younger learners at the moment that makes them think that teaching isn't a profession they want to go into? Is that something that's happening just in Wales or is it happening elsewhere as well?

No. I think what you will find is that this isn't a uniquely Welsh issue. I think they are suffering quite acute problems across the border, which proves to me that money isn't necessarily the entire answer, because, despite higher financial incentives to join ITE courses, they're not able to do that in England either. So, that proves to me—what the research does show—that it's not money alone that will get people onto these courses. Interestingly, I don't even think it's a UK problem. Recently, as you'll be aware via my written statement, I attended the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory, which is a system-to-system conference. If you talk to education systems in different parts of the world, the one common factor that we are all grappling with is teacher recruitment and retention. In the USA, they have seen a 40 per cent drop in the number of students training to be teachers. So, in the Californian system, significant teacher shortages, and in Oregon, Washington. I met with New York state—significant teacher recruitment and retention problems in New York state, and in Finland, Australia. So, this is a common issue across the globe, really. That's why we set up the advisory group under the chairmanship of Professor John Gardner—it's to understand what the issues are exactly that are preventing people or putting people off. One of the things that we have got strong performance in, and I think this is perhaps something that we're trying to follow up on, are employment-based routes into qualified teacher status—so, those are people who are training on the job. Those remain strong. There's high demand for those places, so much so that we've increased those places to 90 last year and 90 again this year, which says to me that—there's definitely a place for the traditional, 'Take a year off, do a postgraduate certificate in education in a university for a year'—actually, that type of course suits some students but it might be preventing other people from pursuing a qualification in teaching, which is why, of course, from next year, we will have our unique part-time PGCE route into qualification. So, that allows people to perhaps combine some of their employment opportunities, so they can earn while they learn, or maybe they've got caring responsibilities that prevent them from going to do a full-time course. I think that will give us an alternative route that people can take to gain qualified teacher status and work in our schools. So, there's no one thing, I think, that we can do that will solve this issue. But it is an international issue, I agree with that.

Okay. Well, that's what I was after finding out, and, actually, what you've just said about the part-time PGCE is pretty interesting as well, because if you can bring your outside world experience into teaching, that's got to help, hasn't it?


Thank you for that answer. I can see there's a lot of activity, but what exactly is it responding to? Presumably, some research has been done about why people don't want to become teachers so that the answers you come up with are appropriate answers. I can't believe it's just about ITE, although this is very valuable, what you're talking about. Is there something that's running through our younger learners at the moment that makes them think that teaching isn't a profession they want to go into? Is that something that's happening just in Wales or is it happening elsewhere as well?

No. I think what you will find is that this isn't a uniquely Welsh issue. I think they are suffering quite acute problems across the border, which proves to me that money isn't necessarily the entire answer, because, despite higher financial incentives to join ITE courses, they're not able to do that in England either. So, that proves to me—what the research does show—that it's not money alone that will get people onto these courses. Interestingly, I don't even think it's a UK problem. Recently, as you'll be aware via my written statement, I attended the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory, which is a system-to-system conference. If you talk to education systems in different parts of the world, the one common factor that we are all grappling with is teacher recruitment and retention. In the USA, they have seen a 40 per cent drop in the number of students training to be teachers. So, in the Californian system, significant teacher shortages, and in Oregon, Washington. I met with New York state—significant teacher recruitment and retention problems in New York state, and in Finland, Australia. So, this is a common issue across the globe, really. That's why we set up the advisory group under the chairmanship of Professor John Gardner—it's to understand what the issues are exactly that are preventing people or putting people off. One of the things that we have got strong performance in, and I think this is perhaps something that we're trying to follow up on, are employment-based routes into qualified teacher status—so, those are people who are training on the job. Those remain strong. There's high demand for those places, so much so that we've increased those places to 90 last year and 90 again this year, which says to me that—there's definitely a place for the traditional, 'Take a year off, do a postgraduate certificate in education in a university for a year'—actually, that type of course suits some students but it might be preventing other people from pursuing a qualification in teaching, which is why, of course, from next year, we will have our unique part-time PGCE route into qualification. So, that allows people to perhaps combine some of their employment opportunities, so they can earn while they learn, or maybe they've got caring responsibilities that prevent them from going to do a full-time course. I think that will give us an alternative route that people can take to gain qualified teacher status and work in our schools. So, there's no one thing, I think, that we can do that will solve this issue. But it is an international issue, I agree with that.

Okay. Well, that's what I was after finding out, and, actually, what you've just said about the part-time PGCE is pretty interesting as well, because if you can bring your outside world experience into teaching, that's got to help, hasn't it?

Can I just agree with you? I think that is really, really important—that we have a diversity in our teaching workforce. I think the different dynamic that brings to a school and the experience that brings to children is really, really valuable. I was up in the Deeside Sixth just last week, talking to the A-level chemistry teacher. She had been a teacher for a while, she'd gone into industry, worked in industry, and now had come back into teaching. She said that she felt that that made her a better educator and she could talk with knowledge and experience about the opportunities outside of teaching that the students in front of her could pursue. I'm very keen to increase the diversity in our teaching workforce and I'm very keen in looking at career changers, who perhaps have different life experience and work experience, coming into our teaching profession.


No. I think what you will find is that this isn't a uniquely Welsh issue. I think they are suffering quite acute problems across the border, which proves to me that money isn't necessarily the entire answer, because, despite higher financial incentives to join ITE courses, they're not able to do that in England either. So, that proves to me—what the research does show—that it's not money alone that will get people onto these courses. Interestingly, I don't even think it's a UK problem. Recently, as you'll be aware via my written statement, I attended the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory, which is a system-to-system conference. If you talk to education systems in different parts of the world, the one common factor that we are all grappling with is teacher recruitment and retention. In the USA, they have seen a 40 per cent drop in the number of students training to be teachers. So, in the Californian system, significant teacher shortages, and in Oregon, Washington. I met with New York state—significant teacher recruitment and retention problems in New York state, and in Finland, Australia. So, this is a common issue across the globe, really. That's why we set up the advisory group under the chairmanship of Professor John Gardner—it's to understand what the issues are exactly that are preventing people or putting people off. One of the things that we have got strong performance in, and I think this is perhaps something that we're trying to follow up on, are employment-based routes into qualified teacher status—so, those are people who are training on the job. Those remain strong. There's high demand for those places, so much so that we've increased those places to 90 last year and 90 again this year, which says to me that—there's definitely a place for the traditional, 'Take a year off, do a postgraduate certificate in education in a university for a year'—actually, that type of course suits some students but it might be preventing other people from pursuing a qualification in teaching, which is why, of course, from next year, we will have our unique part-time PGCE route into qualification. So, that allows people to perhaps combine some of their employment opportunities, so they can earn while they learn, or maybe they've got caring responsibilities that prevent them from going to do a full-time course. I think that will give us an alternative route that people can take to gain qualified teacher status and work in our schools. So, there's no one thing, I think, that we can do that will solve this issue. But it is an international issue, I agree with that.

Okay. Well, that's what I was after finding out, and, actually, what you've just said about the part-time PGCE is pretty interesting as well, because if you can bring your outside world experience into teaching, that's got to help, hasn't it?

Can I just agree with you? I think that is really, really important—that we have a diversity in our teaching workforce. I think the different dynamic that brings to a school and the experience that brings to children is really, really valuable. I was up in the Deeside Sixth just last week, talking to the A-level chemistry teacher. She had been a teacher for a while, she'd gone into industry, worked in industry, and now had come back into teaching. She said that she felt that that made her a better educator and she could talk with knowledge and experience about the opportunities outside of teaching that the students in front of her could pursue. I'm very keen to increase the diversity in our teaching workforce and I'm very keen in looking at career changers, who perhaps have different life experience and work experience, coming into our teaching profession.

Thank you for that. Part of that diversity, of course—it would be great if you had more people interested in qualifying to teach through the medium of Welsh. Great aspirations; the trend's going the other way. No-one can solve this in 280 characters, I get that, but can you give us some indication about why you think this is proving still such an unattractive option when it's clear that there's a policy for this country to improve the number of Welsh speakers? You'd have thought there'd be a pretty good carrot for this.


Okay. Well, that's what I was after finding out, and, actually, what you've just said about the part-time PGCE is pretty interesting as well, because if you can bring your outside world experience into teaching, that's got to help, hasn't it?

Can I just agree with you? I think that is really, really important—that we have a diversity in our teaching workforce. I think the different dynamic that brings to a school and the experience that brings to children is really, really valuable. I was up in the Deeside Sixth just last week, talking to the A-level chemistry teacher. She had been a teacher for a while, she'd gone into industry, worked in industry, and now had come back into teaching. She said that she felt that that made her a better educator and she could talk with knowledge and experience about the opportunities outside of teaching that the students in front of her could pursue. I'm very keen to increase the diversity in our teaching workforce and I'm very keen in looking at career changers, who perhaps have different life experience and work experience, coming into our teaching profession.

Thank you for that. Part of that diversity, of course—it would be great if you had more people interested in qualifying to teach through the medium of Welsh. Great aspirations; the trend's going the other way. No-one can solve this in 280 characters, I get that, but can you give us some indication about why you think this is proving still such an unattractive option when it's clear that there's a policy for this country to improve the number of Welsh speakers? You'd have thought there'd be a pretty good carrot for this.

Sure. Again, data for recruitment for the 2018-19 cohort is not yet available and we are, as I said, keeping in touch with our ITE centres to keep a close eye on them. I think an important thing to recognise is that there is a difference between the number of people who are on courses where there is a specific designation that enables them to teach through the medium of Welsh and those people who have linguistic ability and Welsh ability but don't necessarily do a course that allows them. So, there is a difference. We do think that, for the 2016-17 cohort, there were an additional 130 qualifiers that, actually, were fluent in Welsh and who could have gone on to teach in Welsh-medium schools, didn't necessarily do a course that gave them that designation. But, clearly, we've got three academic years now to get to the targets that we've set ourselves. The evaluation of Welsh-medium provision in ITE reported at the end of last month, and the Minister and officials are busy working now to implement the recommendations of the report that was published, I think, on 28 September, to be able to move this agenda forward. Again, we've got new incentives, this year, both for people starting their course and then for teachers who complete their QTS after a year. So, we've added in new financial incentives this year to try and address some of those issues. But, clearly, these are ambitious targets and we will need to have a step change over the next three years if we're to meet them.


Can I just agree with you? I think that is really, really important—that we have a diversity in our teaching workforce. I think the different dynamic that brings to a school and the experience that brings to children is really, really valuable. I was up in the Deeside Sixth just last week, talking to the A-level chemistry teacher. She had been a teacher for a while, she'd gone into industry, worked in industry, and now had come back into teaching. She said that she felt that that made her a better educator and she could talk with knowledge and experience about the opportunities outside of teaching that the students in front of her could pursue. I'm very keen to increase the diversity in our teaching workforce and I'm very keen in looking at career changers, who perhaps have different life experience and work experience, coming into our teaching profession.

Thank you for that. Part of that diversity, of course—it would be great if you had more people interested in qualifying to teach through the medium of Welsh. Great aspirations; the trend's going the other way. No-one can solve this in 280 characters, I get that, but can you give us some indication about why you think this is proving still such an unattractive option when it's clear that there's a policy for this country to improve the number of Welsh speakers? You'd have thought there'd be a pretty good carrot for this.

Sure. Again, data for recruitment for the 2018-19 cohort is not yet available and we are, as I said, keeping in touch with our ITE centres to keep a close eye on them. I think an important thing to recognise is that there is a difference between the number of people who are on courses where there is a specific designation that enables them to teach through the medium of Welsh and those people who have linguistic ability and Welsh ability but don't necessarily do a course that allows them. So, there is a difference. We do think that, for the 2016-17 cohort, there were an additional 130 qualifiers that, actually, were fluent in Welsh and who could have gone on to teach in Welsh-medium schools, didn't necessarily do a course that gave them that designation. But, clearly, we've got three academic years now to get to the targets that we've set ourselves. The evaluation of Welsh-medium provision in ITE reported at the end of last month, and the Minister and officials are busy working now to implement the recommendations of the report that was published, I think, on 28 September, to be able to move this agenda forward. Again, we've got new incentives, this year, both for people starting their course and then for teachers who complete their QTS after a year. So, we've added in new financial incentives this year to try and address some of those issues. But, clearly, these are ambitious targets and we will need to have a step change over the next three years if we're to meet them.

Thank you for that, Cabinet Secretary. Thank you for that answer. We're now talking about cohorts of students coming into PGCE and teaching degrees. If they're from Wales, they will have had Welsh as part of their education from day one, and we'll accept there are varying qualities in different parts of Wales, different attitudes towards it as well. But there isn't a single a person now who's been through Welsh education who can say they have no Welsh at all, unless they've moved into the system from, say, England very, very recently. What is being done within the teaching qualifications, including the degrees, to ensure that, at least in Welsh universities, those nascent Welsh language skills are at least kept alive, even though we're not talking necessarily about being at a level where people can teach through the medium? It's the age-old question: once the school gate closes, is that the end of their Welsh use? So, is there something—it won't be Donaldson, but in the teacher training qualifications—that is keeping this going and, hopefully, increasing the usability of the Welsh skills they have?


Thank you for that. Part of that diversity, of course—it would be great if you had more people interested in qualifying to teach through the medium of Welsh. Great aspirations; the trend's going the other way. No-one can solve this in 280 characters, I get that, but can you give us some indication about why you think this is proving still such an unattractive option when it's clear that there's a policy for this country to improve the number of Welsh speakers? You'd have thought there'd be a pretty good carrot for this.

Sure. Again, data for recruitment for the 2018-19 cohort is not yet available and we are, as I said, keeping in touch with our ITE centres to keep a close eye on them. I think an important thing to recognise is that there is a difference between the number of people who are on courses where there is a specific designation that enables them to teach through the medium of Welsh and those people who have linguistic ability and Welsh ability but don't necessarily do a course that allows them. So, there is a difference. We do think that, for the 2016-17 cohort, there were an additional 130 qualifiers that, actually, were fluent in Welsh and who could have gone on to teach in Welsh-medium schools, didn't necessarily do a course that gave them that designation. But, clearly, we've got three academic years now to get to the targets that we've set ourselves. The evaluation of Welsh-medium provision in ITE reported at the end of last month, and the Minister and officials are busy working now to implement the recommendations of the report that was published, I think, on 28 September, to be able to move this agenda forward. Again, we've got new incentives, this year, both for people starting their course and then for teachers who complete their QTS after a year. So, we've added in new financial incentives this year to try and address some of those issues. But, clearly, these are ambitious targets and we will need to have a step change over the next three years if we're to meet them.

Thank you for that, Cabinet Secretary. Thank you for that answer. We're now talking about cohorts of students coming into PGCE and teaching degrees. If they're from Wales, they will have had Welsh as part of their education from day one, and we'll accept there are varying qualities in different parts of Wales, different attitudes towards it as well. But there isn't a single a person now who's been through Welsh education who can say they have no Welsh at all, unless they've moved into the system from, say, England very, very recently. What is being done within the teaching qualifications, including the degrees, to ensure that, at least in Welsh universities, those nascent Welsh language skills are at least kept alive, even though we're not talking necessarily about being at a level where people can teach through the medium? It's the age-old question: once the school gate closes, is that the end of their Welsh use? So, is there something—it won't be Donaldson, but in the teacher training qualifications—that is keeping this going and, hopefully, increasing the usability of the Welsh skills they have?

Well, in terms of how we can encourage children who have got Welsh skills as a result of their education up to 16, how they can continue to use those skills and, potentially, use them in the workplace, I'm sure Eluned will want to talk about some of the work, for instance, in other, non-teaching sectors. But, with regard to ITE, you'll be aware that, in the evaluation report, as I said, that was published, the report comes forward with two options in how we could develop an intervention programme to support Welsh language skills amongst all primary and secondary ITE entrants. So, what we'll be doing now as a result of that report is that we'll be working very closely with our ITE centres to develop and agree upon minimum provision that constitutes those skill levels within ITE provision for all teachers.


Sure. Again, data for recruitment for the 2018-19 cohort is not yet available and we are, as I said, keeping in touch with our ITE centres to keep a close eye on them. I think an important thing to recognise is that there is a difference between the number of people who are on courses where there is a specific designation that enables them to teach through the medium of Welsh and those people who have linguistic ability and Welsh ability but don't necessarily do a course that allows them. So, there is a difference. We do think that, for the 2016-17 cohort, there were an additional 130 qualifiers that, actually, were fluent in Welsh and who could have gone on to teach in Welsh-medium schools, didn't necessarily do a course that gave them that designation. But, clearly, we've got three academic years now to get to the targets that we've set ourselves. The evaluation of Welsh-medium provision in ITE reported at the end of last month, and the Minister and officials are busy working now to implement the recommendations of the report that was published, I think, on 28 September, to be able to move this agenda forward. Again, we've got new incentives, this year, both for people starting their course and then for teachers who complete their QTS after a year. So, we've added in new financial incentives this year to try and address some of those issues. But, clearly, these are ambitious targets and we will need to have a step change over the next three years if we're to meet them.

Thank you for that, Cabinet Secretary. Thank you for that answer. We're now talking about cohorts of students coming into PGCE and teaching degrees. If they're from Wales, they will have had Welsh as part of their education from day one, and we'll accept there are varying qualities in different parts of Wales, different attitudes towards it as well. But there isn't a single a person now who's been through Welsh education who can say they have no Welsh at all, unless they've moved into the system from, say, England very, very recently. What is being done within the teaching qualifications, including the degrees, to ensure that, at least in Welsh universities, those nascent Welsh language skills are at least kept alive, even though we're not talking necessarily about being at a level where people can teach through the medium? It's the age-old question: once the school gate closes, is that the end of their Welsh use? So, is there something—it won't be Donaldson, but in the teacher training qualifications—that is keeping this going and, hopefully, increasing the usability of the Welsh skills they have?

Well, in terms of how we can encourage children who have got Welsh skills as a result of their education up to 16, how they can continue to use those skills and, potentially, use them in the workplace, I'm sure Eluned will want to talk about some of the work, for instance, in other, non-teaching sectors. But, with regard to ITE, you'll be aware that, in the evaluation report, as I said, that was published, the report comes forward with two options in how we could develop an intervention programme to support Welsh language skills amongst all primary and secondary ITE entrants. So, what we'll be doing now as a result of that report is that we'll be working very closely with our ITE centres to develop and agree upon minimum provision that constitutes those skill levels within ITE provision for all teachers.


Thank you for that, Cabinet Secretary. Thank you for that answer. We're now talking about cohorts of students coming into PGCE and teaching degrees. If they're from Wales, they will have had Welsh as part of their education from day one, and we'll accept there are varying qualities in different parts of Wales, different attitudes towards it as well. But there isn't a single a person now who's been through Welsh education who can say they have no Welsh at all, unless they've moved into the system from, say, England very, very recently. What is being done within the teaching qualifications, including the degrees, to ensure that, at least in Welsh universities, those nascent Welsh language skills are at least kept alive, even though we're not talking necessarily about being at a level where people can teach through the medium? It's the age-old question: once the school gate closes, is that the end of their Welsh use? So, is there something—it won't be Donaldson, but in the teacher training qualifications—that is keeping this going and, hopefully, increasing the usability of the Welsh skills they have?

Well, in terms of how we can encourage children who have got Welsh skills as a result of their education up to 16, how they can continue to use those skills and, potentially, use them in the workplace, I'm sure Eluned will want to talk about some of the work, for instance, in other, non-teaching sectors. But, with regard to ITE, you'll be aware that, in the evaluation report, as I said, that was published, the report comes forward with two options in how we could develop an intervention programme to support Welsh language skills amongst all primary and secondary ITE entrants. So, what we'll be doing now as a result of that report is that we'll be working very closely with our ITE centres to develop and agree upon minimum provision that constitutes those skill levels within ITE provision for all teachers.


Well, in terms of how we can encourage children who have got Welsh skills as a result of their education up to 16, how they can continue to use those skills and, potentially, use them in the workplace, I'm sure Eluned will want to talk about some of the work, for instance, in other, non-teaching sectors. But, with regard to ITE, you'll be aware that, in the evaluation report, as I said, that was published, the report comes forward with two options in how we could develop an intervention programme to support Welsh language skills amongst all primary and secondary ITE entrants. So, what we'll be doing now as a result of that report is that we'll be working very closely with our ITE centres to develop and agree upon minimum provision that constitutes those skill levels within ITE provision for all teachers.

You have your targets for 2021, in terms of numbers of teachers coming through the system, which is positive, although, clearly, the report or the review itself said that, actually, we need to double the numbers, really. But it's not just the trends that are going down; it's a cataclysmic drop, really. We've lost 24 per cent in the number of people over the last four or five years who are going into teacher training to study subjects that they could teach through the medium of Welsh. So, it's a huge turnaround that we're looking for, and I'm not getting the feeling that the level of ambition and the answers that you're giving here this morning reflect the level of action that's needed, really.


You have your targets for 2021, in terms of numbers of teachers coming through the system, which is positive, although, clearly, the report or the review itself said that, actually, we need to double the numbers, really. But it's not just the trends that are going down; it's a cataclysmic drop, really. We've lost 24 per cent in the number of people over the last four or five years who are going into teacher training to study subjects that they could teach through the medium of Welsh. So, it's a huge turnaround that we're looking for, and I'm not getting the feeling that the level of ambition and the answers that you're giving here this morning reflect the level of action that's needed, really.

Well, first of all, as I tried to illustrate to Suzy, the figures on their own tell one story, but there are additional people in the system with an ability to speak Welsh and to be able to use—