Uh , unless you call  well , if you call VTL the front - en front - end , that 's , uh , a little more. But that 's sort of more both , kind of.

One experiment we should  we 'll probably need to do though when  um , at some point , is , since we 're using that same  the net that was trained on PLP without all these things in it , for the tandem system , we may wanna go back and retrain ,


Uh , unless you call  well , if you call VTL the front - en front - end , that 's , uh , a little more. But that 's sort of more both , kind of.

One experiment we should  we 'll probably need to do though when  um , at some point , is , since we 're using that same  the net that was trained on PLP without all these things in it , for the tandem system , we may wanna go back and retrain ,

Well , that 's what I meant , in fact. Yeah.


One experiment we should  we 'll probably need to do though when  um , at some point , is , since we 're using that same  the net that was trained on PLP without all these things in it , for the tandem system , we may wanna go back and retrain ,

Well , that 's what I meant , in fact. Yeah.

yeah , yeah , for the tandem. You know , so we can see if it  what effect it has on the tandem processing.


Well , that 's what I meant , in fact. Yeah.

yeah , yeah , for the tandem. You know , so we can see if it  what effect it has on the tandem processing.

So  so , the thing is  is do we expect  ?


yeah , yeah , for the tandem. You know , so we can see if it  what effect it has on the tandem processing.

So  so , the thing is  is do we expect  ?

eh At this point I 'm as I mean , you know  e I 'm wondering is it  Can we expect , uh , a tandem system to do better than a properly trained  you know , a Gaussian system trained directly on the features with , you know , the right ch choice of  parameters ?


So  so , the thing is  is do we expect  ?

eh At this point I 'm as I mean , you know  e I 'm wondering is it  Can we expect , uh , a tandem system to do better than a properly trained  you know , a Gaussian system trained directly on the features with , you know , the right ch choice of  parameters ?

Well , that 's what we 're seeing in other areas. Yes. Right ? So , it 's  so , um , um


eh At this point I 'm as I mean , you know  e I 'm wondering is it  Can we expect , uh , a tandem system to do better than a properly trained  you know , a Gaussian system trained directly on the features with , you know , the right ch choice of  parameters ?

Well , that 's what we 're seeing in other areas. Yes. Right ? So , it 's  so , um , um

So , we  But  but we may not. I mean , if it doesn't perform as well , we may not know why. Right ? Cuz we need to do the exact experiment.


Well , that 's what we 're seeing in other areas. Yes. Right ? So , it 's  so , um , um

So , we  But  but we may not. I mean , if it doesn't perform as well , we may not know why. Right ? Cuz we need to do the exact experiment.

I mean , the reason to think it should is because you 're putting in the same information and you 're transforming it to be more discriminative. So. Um. Now the thing is , in some databases I wouldn't expect it to necessarily give you much and  and part of what I view as the real power of it is that it  gives you a transformational capability  for taking all sorts of different wild things that we do , not just th the standard front - end , but other things , like with multiple streams and so forth ,


So , we  But  but we may not. I mean , if it doesn't perform as well , we may not know why. Right ? Cuz we need to do the exact experiment.

I mean , the reason to think it should is because you 're putting in the same information and you 're transforming it to be more discriminative. So. Um. Now the thing is , in some databases I wouldn't expect it to necessarily give you much and  and part of what I view as the real power of it is that it  gives you a transformational capability  for taking all sorts of different wild things that we do , not just th the standard front - end , but other things , like with multiple streams and so forth ,


I mean , the reason to think it should is because you 're putting in the same information and you 're transforming it to be more discriminative. So. Um. Now the thing is , in some databases I wouldn't expect it to necessarily give you much and  and part of what I view as the real power of it is that it  gives you a transformational capability  for taking all sorts of different wild things that we do , not just th the standard front - end , but other things , like with multiple streams and so forth ,

and allows you to feed them to the other system with this  through this funnel. Um , so I think  I think that 's the real power of it. I wouldn't expect huge in huge improvements. Um , but it should at least be roughly the same and maybe a little better.


and allows you to feed them to the other system with this  through this funnel. Um , so I think  I think that 's the real power of it. I wouldn't expect huge in huge improvements. Um , but it should at least be roughly the same and maybe a little better.

If it 's , you know , like way way worse then , you know


If it 's , you know , like way way worse then , you know

So , Morgan , an another thing that Andreas and I were talking about was , so @ @  in the first experiment that he did  we just took the whole fifty - six , uh , outputs and that 's , um , basically compared to a thirty - nine input feature vector from either MFCC or PLP.


So , Morgan , an another thing that Andreas and I were talking about was , so @ @  in the first experiment that he did  we just took the whole fifty - six , uh , outputs and that 's , um , basically compared to a thirty - nine input feature vector from either MFCC or PLP.


So , Morgan , an another thing that Andreas and I were talking about was , so @ @  in the first experiment that he did  we just took the whole fifty - six , uh , outputs and that 's , um , basically compared to a thirty - nine input feature vector from either MFCC or PLP.

Let  let me  let me just ask you something. When you say take the fifty - six outputs , these are the pre final nonlinearity  outputs


Let  let me  let me just ask you something. When you say take the fifty - six outputs , these are the pre final nonlinearity  outputs

Yeah. Through the regular tandem outputs.


Yeah. Through the regular tandem outputs.

OK. And so  so then you u Do you use all fifty - six of the KLT


OK. And so  so then you u Do you use all fifty - six of the KLT


OK. And so  so then you u Do you use all fifty - six of the KLT

Right ? So one thing we were wondering is , if we did principal components and , say , took out just thirteen , and then did deltas and double - deltas on that


Right ? So one thing we were wondering is , if we did principal components and , say , took out just thirteen , and then did deltas and double - deltas on that


Right ? So one thing we were wondering is , if we did principal components and , say , took out just thirteen , and then did deltas and double - deltas on that

so we treated the th first thirteen as though they were  standard features.


so we treated the th first thirteen as though they were  standard features.

I mean , did Dan do experiments like that to  ?


so we treated the th first thirteen as though they were  standard features.

I mean , did Dan do experiments like that to  ?

Uh. Talk with Stephane. He did some things like that. It was either him or Carmen. I forget.


I mean , did Dan do experiments like that to  ?

Uh. Talk with Stephane. He did some things like that. It was either him or Carmen. I forget.


Uh. Talk with Stephane. He did some things like that. It was either him or Carmen. I forget.

I mean these were all different databases and different  you know , in HTK and all that ,


I mean these were all different databases and different  you know , in HTK and all that ,


I mean these were all different databases and different  you know , in HTK and all that ,

so i it  it may not apply. But my recollection of it was that it didn't make it better but it didn't make it worse.


so i it  it may not apply. But my recollection of it was that it didn't make it better but it didn't make it worse.

But , again , given all these differences , maybe it 's more important in your case that you not take a lot of these low - variance , uh , components.


so i it  it may not apply. But my recollection of it was that it didn't make it better but it didn't make it worse.

But , again , given all these differences , maybe it 's more important in your case that you not take a lot of these low - variance , uh , components.

Cuz in a sense , the net 's already got quite a bit of context in those features ,


But , again , given all these differences , maybe it 's more important in your case that you not take a lot of these low - variance , uh , components.

Cuz in a sense , the net 's already got quite a bit of context in those features ,


But , again , given all these differences , maybe it 's more important in your case that you not take a lot of these low - variance , uh , components.

Cuz in a sense , the net 's already got quite a bit of context in those features ,

so if we did deltas and double - deltas on top of those , we 're getting sort of even more.


Cuz in a sense , the net 's already got quite a bit of context in those features ,

so if we did deltas and double - deltas on top of those , we 're getting sort of even more.


so if we did deltas and double - deltas on top of those , we 're getting sort of even more.


But there the main point is that , um , you know , it took us a while but we have the procedure for coupling the two systems  debugged now and  I mean , there 's still conceivably some bug somewhere in the way we 're feeding the tandem features  uh , either generating them or feeding them to this  to the  SRI system ,


But there the main point is that , um , you know , it took us a while but we have the procedure for coupling the two systems  debugged now and  I mean , there 's still conceivably some bug somewhere in the way we 're feeding the tandem features  uh , either generating them or feeding them to this  to the  SRI system ,

There might be , cuz that 's a pretty big difference.


There might be , cuz that 's a pretty big difference.

Yeah. And I 'm wondering how we can  how we can debug that.


Yeah. And I 'm wondering how we can  how we can debug that.


I 'm actually f quite sure that the  feeding the  features into the system and training it up ,


I 'm actually f quite sure that the  feeding the  features into the system and training it up ,

that  that  I think that 's  this  that 's essentially the same as we use with the ce with the P L P fe features. And that 's obviously working great. So. I um.


I 'm actually f quite sure that the  feeding the  features into the system and training it up ,

that  that  I think that 's  this  that 's essentially the same as we use with the ce with the P L P fe features. And that 's obviously working great. So. I um.

Yeah. There could be a bug in  in the  somewhere before that.


that  that  I think that 's  this  that 's essentially the same as we use with the ce with the P L P fe features. And that 's obviously working great. So. I um.

Yeah. There could be a bug in  in the  somewhere before that.

There  we could  the  another degree of freedom is how do you generate the K L T transform ?


Yeah. There could be a bug in  in the  somewhere before that.

There  we could  the  another degree of freedom is how do you generate the K L T transform ?


There  we could  the  another degree of freedom is how do you generate the K L T transform ?


well , and another one is the normalization of the inputs to the net.


well , and another one is the normalization of the inputs to the net.

These nets are trained with particular normalization and when that gets screwed up it  it can really hurt it.


well , and another one is the normalization of the inputs to the net.

These nets are trained with particular normalization and when that gets screwed up it  it can really hurt it.

I 'm doing what Eric  E Eric coached me through then  that part of it , so I 'm pretty confident in that.


These nets are trained with particular normalization and when that gets screwed up it  it can really hurt it.

I 'm doing what Eric  E Eric coached me through then  that part of it , so I 'm pretty confident in that.


These nets are trained with particular normalization and when that gets screwed up it  it can really hurt it.

I 'm doing what Eric  E Eric coached me through then  that part of it , so I 'm pretty confident in that.

I mean , the only slight difference is that I use normalization values that , um , Andreas calculated from the original  PLP ,


I 'm doing what Eric  E Eric coached me through then  that part of it , so I 'm pretty confident in that.

I mean , the only slight difference is that I use normalization values that , um , Andreas calculated from the original  PLP ,


I mean , the only slight difference is that I use normalization values that , um , Andreas calculated from the original  PLP ,


N Yeah. So , I u I do  Oh , we actually don't do that normalization for the PLP , do we ? For the st just the straight PLP features ?


So , there 's  there is  there is room for bugs that we might not have discovered ,


Yeah.  I  I would actually double check with Stephane at this point ,


Yeah.  I  I would actually double check with Stephane at this point ,

cuz he 's probably the one here  I mean , he and Dan are the ones who are at this point most experienced with the tandem


cuz he 's probably the one here  I mean , he and Dan are the ones who are at this point most experienced with the tandem

thing and there may  there may be some little bit here and there that is not  not being handled right.


cuz he 's probably the one here  I mean , he and Dan are the ones who are at this point most experienced with the tandem

thing and there may  there may be some little bit here and there that is not  not being handled right.

Yeah. It 's hard with features , cuz you don't know what they should look like. I mean , you can't just , like , print the  the values out in ASCII and , you know , look at them , see if they 're


thing and there may  there may be some little bit here and there that is not  not being handled right.

Yeah. It 's hard with features , cuz you don't know what they should look like. I mean , you can't just , like , print the  the values out in ASCII and , you know , look at them , see if they 're


Yeah. It 's hard with features , cuz you don't know what they should look like. I mean , you can't just , like , print the  the values out in ASCII and , you know , look at them , see if they 're


eh , and also they 're not  I mean , as I understand it , you  you don't have a way to optimize the features for the final word error. Right ?


eh , and also they 're not  I mean , as I understand it , you  you don't have a way to optimize the features for the final word error. Right ?

I mean , these are just discriminative , but they 're not , um , optimized for the final


eh , and also they 're not  I mean , as I understand it , you  you don't have a way to optimize the features for the final word error. Right ?

I mean , these are just discriminative , but they 're not , um , optimized for the final

They 're optimized for phone discrimination , not for


I mean , these are just discriminative , but they 're not , um , optimized for the final

They 're optimized for phone discrimination , not for

Right. So it  there 's always this question of whether you might do better with those features if there was a way to train it for the word error metric that you 're actually  that you 're actually


I mean , these are just discriminative , but they 're not , um , optimized for the final

They 're optimized for phone discrimination , not for

Right. So it  there 's always this question of whether you might do better with those features if there was a way to train it for the word error metric that you 're actually  that you 're actually

That 's right. Well , the other  Yeah , th the


They 're optimized for phone discrimination , not for

Right. So it  there 's always this question of whether you might do better with those features if there was a way to train it for the word error metric that you 're actually  that you 're actually

That 's right. Well , the other  Yeah , th the


Right. So it  there 's always this question of whether you might do better with those features if there was a way to train it for the word error metric that you 're actually  that you 're actually

That 's right. Well , the other  Yeah , th the

Well , you actually are. But  but it  but in an indirect way.


That 's right. Well , the other  Yeah , th the

Well , you actually are. But  but it  but in an indirect way.

Well , right. It 's indirect , so you don't know


Well , you actually are. But  but it  but in an indirect way.

Well , right. It 's indirect , so you don't know

So wha w what  an and you may not be in this case , come to think of it , because , uh , you 're just taking something that 's trained up elsewhere. So , what  what you  what you do in the full procedure  is you , um , uh , have an embedded training. So in fact you  the  the net is trained on , uh , uh , a , uh , Viterbi alignment of the training data that comes from your full system. And so that 's where the feedback comes all around , so that it is actually discriminant. You can prove that it 's  it 's a , uh  If you believe in the Viterbi assumption that , uh , getting the best path , uh , is almost equivalent to getting the best , uh , total probability , um , then you actually do improve that by , uh  by training up on local  local , uh  local frames. But , um , we aren't actually doing that here , because we did  we did that for a hybrid system , and now we 're plugging it into another system and so it isn't   i i i it wouldn't quite apply here.


Well , right. It 's indirect , so you don't know

So wha w what  an and you may not be in this case , come to think of it , because , uh , you 're just taking something that 's trained up elsewhere. So , what  what you  what you do in the full procedure  is you , um , uh , have an embedded training. So in fact you  the  the net is trained on , uh , uh , a , uh , Viterbi alignment of the training data that comes from your full system. And so that 's where the feedback comes all around , so that it is actually discriminant. You can prove that it 's  it 's a , uh  If you believe in the Viterbi assumption that , uh , getting the best path , uh , is almost equivalent to getting the best , uh , total probability , um , then you actually do improve that by , uh  by training up on local  local , uh  local frames. But , um , we aren't actually doing that here , because we did  we did that for a hybrid system , and now we 're plugging it into another system and so it isn't   i i i it wouldn't quite apply here.

So another huge experiment we could do would be to take the tandem features , uh , do SRI forced alignments using those features , and then re - do the net with those.


So wha w what  an and you may not be in this case , come to think of it , because , uh , you 're just taking something that 's trained up elsewhere. So , what  what you  what you do in the full procedure  is you , um , uh , have an embedded training. So in fact you  the  the net is trained on , uh , uh , a , uh , Viterbi alignment of the training data that comes from your full system. And so that 's where the feedback comes all around , so that it is actually discriminant. You can prove that it 's  it 's a , uh  If you believe in the Viterbi assumption that , uh , getting the best path , uh , is almost equivalent to getting the best , uh , total probability , um , then you actually do improve that by , uh  by training up on local  local , uh  local frames. But , um , we aren't actually doing that here , because we did  we did that for a hybrid system , and now we 're plugging it into another system and so it isn't   i i i it wouldn't quite apply here.

So another huge experiment we could do would be to take the tandem features , uh , do SRI forced alignments using those features , and then re - do the net with those.


So another huge experiment we could do would be to take the tandem features , uh , do SRI forced alignments using those features , and then re - do the net with those.


So that you can optimize it for the word error.


So that you can optimize it for the word error.

Yeah. Another thing is since you 're not using the net for recognition per se but just for this transformation , it 's probably bigger than it needs to be.


Yeah. Another thing is since you 're not using the net for recognition per se but just for this transformation , it 's probably bigger than it needs to be.


Yeah. Another thing is since you 're not using the net for recognition per se but just for this transformation , it 's probably bigger than it needs to be.

And there 's a mismatch in the phone sets. So , you 're using a l a long a larger phone set than what


And there 's a mismatch in the phone sets. So , you 're using a l a long a larger phone set than what


And there 's a mismatch in the phone sets. So , you 're using a l a long a larger phone set than what

Yeah. Actually all those things could  could  could  could , uh  could affect it as well.


Yeah. Actually all those things could  could  could  could , uh  could affect it as well.

The other thing , uh , just to mention that Stephane  this was an innovation of Stephane 's , which was a pretty neat one , uh , and might particularly apply  here , given all these things we 're mentioning. Um , Stephane 's idea was that , um , discriminant , uh , approaches are great. Even the local ones , given , you know , these potential outer loops which , you know , you can convince yourself turn into the global ones. Um , however , there 's times when it  is not good. Uh , when  something about the test set is different enough from the training set that  that , uh , the discrimination that you 're learning is  is  is not a good one.


The other thing , uh , just to mention that Stephane  this was an innovation of Stephane 's , which was a pretty neat one , uh , and might particularly apply  here , given all these things we 're mentioning. Um , Stephane 's idea was that , um , discriminant , uh , approaches are great. Even the local ones , given , you know , these potential outer loops which , you know , you can convince yourself turn into the global ones. Um , however , there 's times when it  is not good. Uh , when  something about the test set is different enough from the training set that  that , uh , the discrimination that you 're learning is  is  is not a good one.

So , uh , his idea was to take as the input feature vector to the , uh , Gaussian mixture system ,  uh , a concatenation of the neural net outputs and the regular features.


So , uh , his idea was to take as the input feature vector to the , uh , Gaussian mixture system ,  uh , a concatenation of the neural net outputs and the regular features.


Yeah. No , but we  we  when  when we  when I first started corresponding with Dan about how to go about this , I think that was one of the things that we definitely went there.


Yeah. No , but we  we  when  when we  when I first started corresponding with Dan about how to go about this , I think that was one of the things that we definitely went there.

or  ? Oh. That makes a lot of sense. Huh.


Yeah. No , but we  we  when  when we  when I first started corresponding with Dan about how to go about this , I think that was one of the things that we definitely went there.

or  ? Oh. That makes a lot of sense. Huh.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean , I 'm sure that Stephane wasn't the first to think of it ,


or  ? Oh. That makes a lot of sense. Huh.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean , I 'm sure that Stephane wasn't the first to think of it ,


Yeah. Yeah. I mean , I 'm sure that Stephane wasn't the first to think of it ,


Yeah. So that 's  that  that 's our current best  best system in the , uh   uh , in the Aurora thing.


Yeah. So that 's  that  that 's our current best  best system in the , uh   uh , in the Aurora thing.

And do you do a KLT transform on the con on the combined feature vector ?


And do you do a KLT transform on the con on the combined feature vector ?


Do you  d you do a KLT transform on the combined feature vector ?


Do you  d you do a KLT transform on the combined feature vector ?

Well , actually , I , uh  you should check with him , because he tried several different combinations.


Well , actually , I , uh  you should check with him , because he tried several different combinations.

Because you end up with this huge feature vector , so that might be a problem , a unless you do some form of dimensionality reduction.


Well , actually , I , uh  you should check with him , because he tried several different combinations.

Because you end up with this huge feature vector , so that might be a problem , a unless you do some form of dimensionality reduction.

Yeah. I , uh , th what I don't remember is which came out best. So he did one where he put o put e the whole thing into one KLT , and another one , since the  the PLP things are already orthogonalized , he left them alone and  and just did a KLT on the  on the  on the net outputs


Because you end up with this huge feature vector , so that might be a problem , a unless you do some form of dimensionality reduction.

Yeah. I , uh , th what I don't remember is which came out best. So he did one where he put o put e the whole thing into one KLT , and another one , since the  the PLP things are already orthogonalized , he left them alone and  and just did a KLT on the  on the  on the net outputs

and then concatenated that. And I don't remember which was better.


Yeah. I , uh , th what I don't remember is which came out best. So he did one where he put o put e the whole thing into one KLT , and another one , since the  the PLP things are already orthogonalized , he left them alone and  and just did a KLT on the  on the  on the net outputs

and then concatenated that. And I don't remember which was better.

Did he  did he try to  ? So he always ended up with a feature vector that was  twice as long as either one of the  ?


and then concatenated that. And I don't remember which was better.

Did he  did he try to  ? So he always ended up with a feature vector that was  twice as long as either one of the  ?

No. I don't know , i I  I don't know. You have to check with him.


Did he  did he try to  ? So he always ended up with a feature vector that was  twice as long as either one of the  ?

No. I don't know , i I  I don't know. You have to check with him.


No. I don't know , i I  I don't know. You have to check with him.


We need to close up cuz I need to save the data and , um , get a call.


We need to close up cuz I need to save the data and , um , get a call.

Not to mention the fact that we 're missing snacks. Yeah.


Not to mention the fact that we 're missing snacks. Yeah.


I  I g I think , given that we 're in a hurry for snacks , maybe we should do them together.


I  I g I think , given that we 're in a hurry for snacks , maybe we should do them together.

I don't know. Should we just  ? OK. I mean , are we trying to do them  in synchrony ? That might be fun.


I  I g I think , given that we 're in a hurry for snacks , maybe we should do them together.

I don't know. Should we just  ? OK. I mean , are we trying to do them  in synchrony ? That might be fun.

Well , it 's   it 's  it 's not  You know , it 's not gonna work out


I  I g I think , given that we 're in a hurry for snacks , maybe we should do them together.

I don't know. Should we just  ? OK. I mean , are we trying to do them  in synchrony ? That might be fun.

Well , it 's   it 's  it 's not  You know , it 's not gonna work out

Adam 's not here , so he 's not here to tell me no.


I don't know. Should we just  ? OK. I mean , are we trying to do them  in synchrony ? That might be fun.

Well , it 's   it 's  it 's not  You know , it 's not gonna work out

Adam 's not here , so he 's not here to tell me no.

but we could  we could just , uh , uh , see if we find a rhythm , you know , what


Well , it 's   it 's  it 's not  You know , it 's not gonna work out

Adam 's not here , so he 's not here to tell me no.

but we could  we could just , uh , uh , see if we find a rhythm , you know , what


Adam 's not here , so he 's not here to tell me no.

but we could  we could just , uh , uh , see if we find a rhythm , you know , what

Uh , O 's or zeroes , we wanna agree on that ?


but we could  we could just , uh , uh , see if we find a rhythm , you know , what

Uh , O 's or zeroes , we wanna agree on that ?

Maybe just whatever people would naturally do ? I don't know.


Uh , O 's or zeroes , we wanna agree on that ?

Maybe just whatever people would naturally do ? I don't know.

Oh , but if we were a singing group , we would wanna decide. Right ?


Maybe just whatever people would naturally do ? I don't know.

Oh , but if we were a singing group , we would wanna decide. Right ?


Oh , but if we were a singing group , we would wanna decide. Right ?


Sorry. So I set up and we didn't have  enough digit forms


Why don't we do zer i Anyone have a problem with saying zero ? Is zero OK ?


No , just k just kidding. Oh , yeah. It was.


Okay uh Agnes , you can help me for the slide when

okay. Okay , welcome back. I hope uh you have a fresh head and a fresh time. How t now the meeting actually we gathering here to discuss about the functional design meeting. Okay , and uh we'll issue some information from uh all of you. And it's in the , I think uh , in the sharing folder. And uh I will invite uh the Christine and the Ed and uh Agnes to discuss about on the various subjects. So can you go to the next slide ? Yeah uh the agenda of the meeting is opening. Then uh I'm going to talk about uh the project management , what I'm going to do , and uh , of course , I'm doing the project management and secretary both , okay , to take the minutes of the meeting. And there are three presentations. One is uh new project requirements. And the second one about uh decision on remote control functions. And uh finally we are closing. Uh and the meeting time will be uh forty minutes , so you have to be very quick. And I have come up with the  management come with the new proposal , okay , and I have to discuss a few points on this. Uh both says new insights in the aim of your project. Uh the one is uh the teletext becomes uh outmoded , okay because if uh because of the computer systems and the new technology. So we don't need to consider really about the teletext all in our new project design. And the second one is about uh the remote control. Should be used only for the T_V_. That's what our uh management says. And the third point , it's very very important to establish our uh marketing or uh corporate image , okay , with this new project or new product. Okay.  So I will invite uh  Agnes , can you go to the third slide ?


okay. Okay , welcome back. I hope uh you have a fresh head and a fresh time. How t now the meeting actually we gathering here to discuss about the functional design meeting. Okay , and uh we'll issue some information from uh all of you. And it's in the , I think uh , in the sharing folder. And uh I will invite uh the Christine and the Ed and uh Agnes to discuss about on the various subjects. So can you go to the next slide ? Yeah uh the agenda of the meeting is opening. Then uh I'm going to talk about uh the project management , what I'm going to do , and uh , of course , I'm doing the project management and secretary both , okay , to take the minutes of the meeting. And there are three presentations. One is uh new project requirements. And the second one about uh decision on remote control functions. And uh finally we are closing. Uh and the meeting time will be uh forty minutes , so you have to be very quick. And I have come up with the  management come with the new proposal , okay , and I have to discuss a few points on this. Uh both says new insights in the aim of your project. Uh the one is uh the teletext becomes uh outmoded , okay because if uh because of the computer systems and the new technology. So we don't need to consider really about the teletext all in our new project design. And the second one is about uh the remote control. Should be used only for the T_V_. That's what our uh management says. And the third point , it's very very important to establish our uh marketing or uh corporate image , okay , with this new project or new product. Okay.  So I will invite uh  Agnes , can you go to the third slide ?


okay. Okay , welcome back. I hope uh you have a fresh head and a fresh time. How t now the meeting actually we gathering here to discuss about the functional design meeting. Okay , and uh we'll issue some information from uh all of you. And it's in the , I think uh , in the sharing folder. And uh I will invite uh the Christine and the Ed and uh Agnes to discuss about on the various subjects. So can you go to the next slide ? Yeah uh the agenda of the meeting is opening. Then uh I'm going to talk about uh the project management , what I'm going to do , and uh , of course , I'm doing the project management and secretary both , okay , to take the minutes of the meeting. And there are three presentations. One is uh new project requirements. And the second one about uh decision on remote control functions. And uh finally we are closing. Uh and the meeting time will be uh forty minutes , so you have to be very quick. And I have come up with the  management come with the new proposal , okay , and I have to discuss a few points on this. Uh both says new insights in the aim of your project. Uh the one is uh the teletext becomes uh outmoded , okay because if uh because of the computer systems and the new technology. So we don't need to consider really about the teletext all in our new project design. And the second one is about uh the remote control. Should be used only for the T_V_. That's what our uh management says. And the third point , it's very very important to establish our uh marketing or uh corporate image , okay , with this new project or new product. Okay.  So I will invite uh  Agnes , can you go to the third slide ?

Okay , . So , I'll invite uh Christine to discuss about uh the functional design.


Okay , . So , I'll invite uh Christine to discuss about uh the functional design.


Do you want the mouse , or do you want me to


Do you want the mouse , or do you want me to

So um well I I figured uh we should um identify some user requirements , and from my experience , I wanna uh , and from  research I did , uh the the device has to turn the television on and off the first time you press on the big button , you can't uh can't have like uh waffling on this point , you know.


Do you want the mouse , or do you want me to

So um well I I figured uh we should um identify some user requirements , and from my experience , I wanna uh , and from  research I did , uh the the device has to turn the television on and off the first time you press on the big button , you can't uh can't have like uh waffling on this point , you know.

Really have  It needs to be able y y have to be able to find it. Because one of the biggest problems with remote controls is finding them. So uh , I also , since we have to establish our corporate image on the basis of this new product , thought we better look at things that are popular and um ex go beyond those , and , as I said in the first meeting , um  and then uh we might wanna talk eventually about the materials that are appropriate to use in uh in the construction , especially in the the uh the outside of the product


So um well I I figured uh we should um identify some user requirements , and from my experience , I wanna uh , and from  research I did , uh the the device has to turn the television on and off the first time you press on the big button , you can't uh can't have like uh waffling on this point , you know.

Really have  It needs to be able y y have to be able to find it. Because one of the biggest problems with remote controls is finding them. So uh , I also , since we have to establish our corporate image on the basis of this new product , thought we better look at things that are popular and um ex go beyond those , and , as I said in the first meeting , um  and then uh we might wanna talk eventually about the materials that are appropriate to use in uh in the construction , especially in the the uh the outside of the product

so that it gives the appearance , and it is reliable , and so forth.  I did a little history on uh the the uh remote controls and when they were invented and so forth , so , I guess this guy Zenith uh created the Flashmatic , which I kinda like the idea , 'cause it made me think of um um maybe the remote control made a big flash when uh you turn the T_V_ on and off , that might be interesting. And um  so it was highly directional flash light that uh you could turn the picture on and off , and the sound on and off , and change channels c so I think um those are still requirements we have today , uh fifty years later.


Really have  It needs to be able y y have to be able to find it. Because one of the biggest problems with remote controls is finding them. So uh , I also , since we have to establish our corporate image on the basis of this new product , thought we better look at things that are popular and um ex go beyond those , and , as I said in the first meeting , um  and then uh we might wanna talk eventually about the materials that are appropriate to use in uh in the construction , especially in the the uh the outside of the product

so that it gives the appearance , and it is reliable , and so forth.  I did a little history on uh the the uh remote controls and when they were invented and so forth , so , I guess this guy Zenith uh created the Flashmatic , which I kinda like the idea , 'cause it made me think of um um maybe the remote control made a big flash when uh you turn the T_V_ on and off , that might be interesting. And um  so it was highly directional flash light that uh you could turn the picture on and off , and the sound on and off , and change channels c so I think um those are still requirements we have today , uh fifty years later.

And uh it was really a pioneering innovation , but it was uh sensitive to the sun , so that uh it would get  would start off by the  you'd get  it would easily cause um problems. So , uh I  in addition to uh looking at the um  uh the functional requir so all these devices are examples of where uh mm  they  represent examples that are available today   which I think the one in the middle is r um really uh something to keep in mind.


so that it gives the appearance , and it is reliable , and so forth.  I did a little history on uh the the uh remote controls and when they were invented and so forth , so , I guess this guy Zenith uh created the Flashmatic , which I kinda like the idea , 'cause it made me think of um um maybe the remote control made a big flash when uh you turn the T_V_ on and off , that might be interesting. And um  so it was highly directional flash light that uh you could turn the picture on and off , and the sound on and off , and change channels c so I think um those are still requirements we have today , uh fifty years later.

And uh it was really a pioneering innovation , but it was uh sensitive to the sun , so that uh it would get  would start off by the  you'd get  it would easily cause um problems. So , uh I  in addition to uh looking at the um  uh the functional requir so all these devices are examples of where uh mm  they  represent examples that are available today   which I think the one in the middle is r um really uh something to keep in mind.


And uh it was really a pioneering innovation , but it was uh sensitive to the sun , so that uh it would get  would start off by the  you'd get  it would easily cause um problems. So , uh I  in addition to uh looking at the um  uh the functional requir so all these devices are examples of where uh mm  they  represent examples that are available today   which I think the one in the middle is r um really uh something to keep in mind.

It'd be easy to find. And um it would uh y you'd   you could throw it at things if if the T_V_ didn't turn on and off , you could use it for something else. And since I'm not really um  Industrial Designer , I didn't really know what to do with this slide. But um  I just  took some  different uh schematics and I put them into this , and I guess this is what a slide might look like if you were drawing a circuit board.  I don't know why um we were asked to do this. So , uh  personal preferences ,  um


And uh it was really a pioneering innovation , but it was uh sensitive to the sun , so that uh it would get  would start off by the  you'd get  it would easily cause um problems. So , uh I  in addition to uh looking at the um  uh the functional requir so all these devices are examples of where uh mm  they  represent examples that are available today   which I think the one in the middle is r um really uh something to keep in mind.

It'd be easy to find. And um it would uh y you'd   you could throw it at things if if the T_V_ didn't turn on and off , you could use it for something else. And since I'm not really um  Industrial Designer , I didn't really know what to do with this slide. But um  I just  took some  different uh schematics and I put them into this , and I guess this is what a slide might look like if you were drawing a circuit board.  I don't know why um we were asked to do this. So , uh  personal preferences ,  um

I think we could uh I I'm really thinking outside the box here , and I think that we should consider perhaps having an an an a a size uh   a remote control that changes in size depending on the user preference.


It'd be easy to find. And um it would uh y you'd   you could throw it at things if if the T_V_ didn't turn on and off , you could use it for something else. And since I'm not really um  Industrial Designer , I didn't really know what to do with this slide. But um  I just  took some  different uh schematics and I put them into this , and I guess this is what a slide might look like if you were drawing a circuit board.  I don't know why um we were asked to do this. So , uh  personal preferences ,  um

I think we could uh I I'm really thinking outside the box here , and I think that we should consider perhaps having an an an a a size uh   a remote control that changes in size depending on the user preference.

So something that's very very flexible and inflatable and then you could shrink it. I think um it could either be  you could go either one extreme , be very colourful , or you could make it clear , and um kind of blend in with things , so you didn't have to um  uh have a problem with the th the decoration of the  of the user's home. Um I think uh it needs to be waterproof , because uh sometimes they fall into cups


It'd be easy to find. And um it would uh y you'd   you could throw it at things if if the T_V_ didn't turn on and off , you could use it for something else. And since I'm not really um  Industrial Designer , I didn't really know what to do with this slide. But um  I just  took some  different uh schematics and I put them into this , and I guess this is what a slide might look like if you were drawing a circuit board.  I don't know why um we were asked to do this. So , uh  personal preferences ,  um

I think we could uh I I'm really thinking outside the box here , and I think that we should consider perhaps having an an an a a size uh   a remote control that changes in size depending on the user preference.

So something that's very very flexible and inflatable and then you could shrink it. I think um it could either be  you could go either one extreme , be very colourful , or you could make it clear , and um kind of blend in with things , so you didn't have to um  uh have a problem with the th the decoration of the  of the user's home. Um I think uh it needs to be waterproof , because uh sometimes they fall into cups

and , you know , it might be out by the swimming pool or something like that. Um  if you uh mi one of  one of my requirements was about needs t to tell you when it's done its job or not , because half the time , I keep pushing on the remote control , and I don't know if it's actually understood my message , so I think it should give you some sort of an oral cue. And uh , course I never wanna replace the battery.  So ,


I think we could uh I I'm really thinking outside the box here , and I think that we should consider perhaps having an an an a a size uh   a remote control that changes in size depending on the user preference.

So something that's very very flexible and inflatable and then you could shrink it. I think um it could either be  you could go either one extreme , be very colourful , or you could make it clear , and um kind of blend in with things , so you didn't have to um  uh have a problem with the th the decoration of the  of the user's home. Um I think uh it needs to be waterproof , because uh sometimes they fall into cups

and , you know , it might be out by the swimming pool or something like that. Um  if you uh mi one of  one of my requirements was about needs t to tell you when it's done its job or not , because half the time , I keep pushing on the remote control , and I don't know if it's actually understood my message , so I think it should give you some sort of an oral cue. And uh , course I never wanna replace the battery.  So ,

that's  those are my f preferences , and that's my presentation.


So something that's very very flexible and inflatable and then you could shrink it. I think um it could either be  you could go either one extreme , be very colourful , or you could make it clear , and um kind of blend in with things , so you didn't have to um  uh have a problem with the th the decoration of the  of the user's home. Um I think uh it needs to be waterproof , because uh sometimes they fall into cups

and , you know , it might be out by the swimming pool or something like that. Um  if you uh mi one of  one of my requirements was about needs t to tell you when it's done its job or not , because half the time , I keep pushing on the remote control , and I don't know if it's actually understood my message , so I think it should give you some sort of an oral cue. And uh , course I never wanna replace the battery.  So ,

that's  those are my f preferences , and that's my presentation.

Yeah , let me uh interrupt you uh if you can add other facility , other feature , like uh unbreakable.


and , you know , it might be out by the swimming pool or something like that. Um  if you uh mi one of  one of my requirements was about needs t to tell you when it's done its job or not , because half the time , I keep pushing on the remote control , and I don't know if it's actually understood my message , so I think it should give you some sort of an oral cue. And uh , course I never wanna replace the battery.  So ,

that's  those are my f preferences , and that's my presentation.

Yeah , let me uh interrupt you uh if you can add other facility , other feature , like uh unbreakable.


that's  those are my f preferences , and that's my presentation.

Yeah , let me uh interrupt you uh if you can add other facility , other feature , like uh unbreakable.

Okay , because uh especially today , you know , you have the family and the kids ,


Yeah , let me uh interrupt you uh if you can add other facility , other feature , like uh unbreakable.

Okay , because uh especially today , you know , you have the family and the kids ,

okay , and the kids throw it and they they play with their remotes and .


Okay , because uh especially today , you know , you have the family and the kids ,

okay , and the kids throw it and they they play with their remotes and .


Okay , because uh especially today , you know , you have the family and the kids ,

okay , and the kids throw it and they they play with their remotes and .

Yes. Okay , so if you can add the feature , okay , for your uh fabric whatever in your outline design okay , with unbreakable , okay , I think that will give a lot of advantage for our product , if I'm not wrong. Maybe you can uh add it in that.


okay , and the kids throw it and they they play with their remotes and .

Yes. Okay , so if you can add the feature , okay , for your uh fabric whatever in your outline design okay , with unbreakable , okay , I think that will give a lot of advantage for our product , if I'm not wrong. Maybe you can uh add it in that.

Good idea. Good idea , I'll I'll uh um  Yes , very good.


Yes. Okay , so if you can add the feature , okay , for your uh fabric whatever in your outline design okay , with unbreakable , okay , I think that will give a lot of advantage for our product , if I'm not wrong. Maybe you can uh add it in that.

Good idea. Good idea , I'll I'll uh um  Yes , very good.

Okay , uh thank you Christine , and uh uh any questions or uh clarifications , or any discussion on the functional design ?


Yes. Okay , so if you can add the feature , okay , for your uh fabric whatever in your outline design okay , with unbreakable , okay , I think that will give a lot of advantage for our product , if I'm not wrong. Maybe you can uh add it in that.

Good idea. Good idea , I'll I'll uh um  Yes , very good.

Okay , uh thank you Christine , and uh uh any questions or uh clarifications , or any discussion on the functional design ?

Do you have any preconceived ideas in terms of materials ? 'Cause , for example , in the unbreakable thing , doing something plastic would be harder ,


Good idea. Good idea , I'll I'll uh um  Yes , very good.

Okay , uh thank you Christine , and uh uh any questions or uh clarifications , or any discussion on the functional design ?

Do you have any preconceived ideas in terms of materials ? 'Cause , for example , in the unbreakable thing , doing something plastic would be harder ,


Okay , uh thank you Christine , and uh uh any questions or uh clarifications , or any discussion on the functional design ?

Do you have any preconceived ideas in terms of materials ? 'Cause , for example , in the unbreakable thing , doing something plastic would be harder ,

whereas having something like , I dunno , steel or titanium isn't really economically viable.


Do you have any preconceived ideas in terms of materials ? 'Cause , for example , in the unbreakable thing , doing something plastic would be harder ,

whereas having something like , I dunno , steel or titanium isn't really economically viable.

Titanium. Titanium would be  be heavy , too ,


whereas having something like , I dunno , steel or titanium isn't really economically viable.

Titanium. Titanium would be  be heavy , too ,


Titanium. Titanium would be  be heavy , too ,


No , I haven't really um  I wanted feedback , I think we need to rate  rank these , but we'll see what your uh personal preferences are and your thoughts.


No , I haven't really um  I wanted feedback , I think we need to rate  rank these , but we'll see what your uh personal preferences are and your thoughts.

Yeah. Sure , yeah. No , I just wondering whether  that you had any sort of


Yeah. Sure , yeah. No , I just wondering whether  that you had any sort of


you know , nobody told me how mu what our financial objective is , so um


you know , nobody told me how mu what our financial objective is , so um

It'd be hard to inflate something ou made out of titanium though .


you know , nobody told me how mu what our financial objective is , so um

It'd be hard to inflate something ou made out of titanium though .

Yeah the the  I'm sorry because uh the last meeting we supposed to discuss about the financial thing.


It'd be hard to inflate something ou made out of titanium though .

Yeah the the  I'm sorry because uh the last meeting we supposed to discuss about the financial thing.

Uh let me go quickly , maybe if I can go back . I know the project plan and the budget. So I can close this ,  not sure. Was in uh  S This. So let me see where is this file.


Yeah the the  I'm sorry because uh the last meeting we supposed to discuss about the financial thing.

Uh let me go quickly , maybe if I can go back . I know the project plan and the budget. So I can close this ,  not sure. Was in uh  S This. So let me see where is this file.


Uh let me go quickly , maybe if I can go back . I know the project plan and the budget. So I can close this ,  not sure. Was in uh  S This. So let me see where is this file.


I think verbally we can  we can pretty much sell.


I think verbally we can  we can pretty much sell.

I will  I will send you a mail , okay ? The project may be the the project aim , okay. At the end of the day , the company uh wants to make at least uh the fifty million Euro. Okay , and uh of course the price will be very reasonable on the the sales side. Okay , that maybe Eddie will talk to you about uh how much uh the price and uh what's uh  how much its cost for the manufacturing and how much it's going to be  we sell in the market. Okay. Then uh you can come back with your feedback. And I I have one  maybe the suggestion or opinion. This remote control , okay , it can be for like universal , to use for any T_V_. Okay , and it will be slim , okay , and uh


I will  I will send you a mail , okay ? The project may be the the project aim , okay. At the end of the day , the company uh wants to make at least uh the fifty million Euro. Okay , and uh of course the price will be very reasonable on the the sales side. Okay , that maybe Eddie will talk to you about uh how much uh the price and uh what's uh  how much its cost for the manufacturing and how much it's going to be  we sell in the market. Okay. Then uh you can come back with your feedback. And I I have one  maybe the suggestion or opinion. This remote control , okay , it can be for like universal , to use for any T_V_. Okay , and it will be slim , okay , and uh


Yep. But let's try it , okay , with the different uh  the designs , okay , the functional designs.


Uh from her side , I don't think uh there's too many more questions.


Uh from her side , I don't think uh there's too many more questions.

Okay. Thank you Christine for uh time being ,


Okay. Thank you Christine for uh time being ,

Okay , from the marketing  yeah , from the marketing side , just to to give an idea what the management is looking for , I was looking for a a remote control to have a s


Okay , from the marketing  yeah , from the marketing side , just to to give an idea what the management is looking for , I was looking for a a remote control to have a s


Okay , from the marketing  yeah , from the marketing side , just to to give an idea what the management is looking for , I was looking for a a remote control to have a s

I have a sales price of twenty-five Euro , with a production price of uh twelve and a half Euro. For what uh I think from what we're trying to find , we're tr we're looking for , I don't think that price is exactly in the market. Okay ?


I have a sales price of twenty-five Euro , with a production price of uh twelve and a half Euro. For what uh I think from what we're trying to find , we're tr we're looking for , I don't think that price is exactly in the market. Okay ?

I'll explain myself here now in the sense that uh in a  in the recent surveys , uh from the ages  fr from fifteen to thirty-five , eighty percent are willing to spend more money for something as fancy as trendy.


I have a sales price of twenty-five Euro , with a production price of uh twelve and a half Euro. For what uh I think from what we're trying to find , we're tr we're looking for , I don't think that price is exactly in the market. Okay ?

I'll explain myself here now in the sense that uh in a  in the recent surveys , uh from the ages  fr from fifteen to thirty-five , eighty percent are willing to spend more money for something as fancy as trendy.

Twenty-five Euros , uh that's that's a preson reasonable price. That's a market price right now. Now if we're gonna take a risk , and push this up a bit , make it more expensive ,


I'll explain myself here now in the sense that uh in a  in the recent surveys , uh from the ages  fr from fifteen to thirty-five , eighty percent are willing to spend more money for something as fancy as trendy.

Twenty-five Euros , uh that's that's a preson reasonable price. That's a market price right now. Now if we're gonna take a risk , and push this up a bit , make it more expensive ,


I'll explain myself here now in the sense that uh in a  in the recent surveys , uh from the ages  fr from fifteen to thirty-five , eighty percent are willing to spend more money for something as fancy as trendy.

Twenty-five Euros , uh that's that's a preson reasonable price. That's a market price right now. Now if we're gonna take a risk , and push this up a bit , make it more expensive ,

but give them added things that they don't have now ,


Twenty-five Euros , uh that's that's a preson reasonable price. That's a market price right now. Now if we're gonna take a risk , and push this up a bit , make it more expensive ,

but give them added things that they don't have now ,


but give them added things that they don't have now ,

then it w it could possibly sell. Obviously the risk is there. Too expensive , they're not gonna buy. But , I think uh there's one other thing interesting  two things that are interesting  is that uh from the fifteen to thirty-five year-old group , which always spends more money on trendy new things , speech recognition is requested.


then it w it could possibly sell. Obviously the risk is there. Too expensive , they're not gonna buy. But , I think uh there's one other thing interesting  two things that are interesting  is that uh from the fifteen to thirty-five year-old group , which always spends more money on trendy new things , speech recognition is requested.

And we're talking between seventy-five to ninety percent of this group is willing to pay for speech recognition on a remote.


And we're talking between seventy-five to ninety percent of this group is willing to pay for speech recognition on a remote.

Obviously , we can't make a remote into a computer , but maybe simple commands. I dunno , louder , softer , on , off. That might be a possibility , even though it costs more , to be the first on the market to produce this.


And we're talking between seventy-five to ninety percent of this group is willing to pay for speech recognition on a remote.

Obviously , we can't make a remote into a computer , but maybe simple commands. I dunno , louder , softer , on , off. That might be a possibility , even though it costs more , to be the first on the market to produce this.

Thirty-five percent say they're too difficult to use. So we have to figure out a way of making it um more user friendly.  Uh fifty percent say they can't find the remote half the time.


Obviously , we can't make a remote into a computer , but maybe simple commands. I dunno , louder , softer , on , off. That might be a possibility , even though it costs more , to be the first on the market to produce this.

Thirty-five percent say they're too difficult to use. So we have to figure out a way of making it um more user friendly.  Uh fifty percent say they can't find the remote half the time.

So maybe one word speech recognition commands , say remote , and there's a beep beep beep , and they can find it through , you know , ten tons of newspapers , magazines , whatever you have at home.


Obviously , we can't make a remote into a computer , but maybe simple commands. I dunno , louder , softer , on , off. That might be a possibility , even though it costs more , to be the first on the market to produce this.

Thirty-five percent say they're too difficult to use. So we have to figure out a way of making it um more user friendly.  Uh fifty percent say they can't find the remote half the time.

So maybe one word speech recognition commands , say remote , and there's a beep beep beep , and they can find it through , you know , ten tons of newspapers , magazines , whatever you have at home.

But , in the cost that uh the management is looking for , that's not gonna be possible. But if it's trendy , if it's fancy , it's got some colour to it , if it's very easy  easy to use , if it's got simple remote  speech remote uh control , like I said , louder , softer , change channel , on , off , remote , it goes beep beep , I can find my my remote without spending half a day looking for it and getting all upset 'cause I can't turn the T_V_ on. So we're gonna have to look at it in a  in this global idea , with the ideas of the industrial uh design.


Thirty-five percent say they're too difficult to use. So we have to figure out a way of making it um more user friendly.  Uh fifty percent say they can't find the remote half the time.

So maybe one word speech recognition commands , say remote , and there's a beep beep beep , and they can find it through , you know , ten tons of newspapers , magazines , whatever you have at home.

But , in the cost that uh the management is looking for , that's not gonna be possible. But if it's trendy , if it's fancy , it's got some colour to it , if it's very easy  easy to use , if it's got simple remote  speech remote uh control , like I said , louder , softer , change channel , on , off , remote , it goes beep beep , I can find my my remote without spending half a day looking for it and getting all upset 'cause I can't turn the T_V_ on. So we're gonna have to look at it in a  in this global idea , with the ideas of the industrial uh design.

But , price obviously we have to talk about.


So maybe one word speech recognition commands , say remote , and there's a beep beep beep , and they can find it through , you know , ten tons of newspapers , magazines , whatever you have at home.

But , in the cost that uh the management is looking for , that's not gonna be possible. But if it's trendy , if it's fancy , it's got some colour to it , if it's very easy  easy to use , if it's got simple remote  speech remote uh control , like I said , louder , softer , change channel , on , off , remote , it goes beep beep , I can find my my remote without spending half a day looking for it and getting all upset 'cause I can't turn the T_V_ on. So we're gonna have to look at it in a  in this global idea , with the ideas of the industrial uh design.

But , price obviously we have to talk about.

Yep. So what do you think about uh the design  ? Do you think you can make it or uh


But , in the cost that uh the management is looking for , that's not gonna be possible. But if it's trendy , if it's fancy , it's got some colour to it , if it's very easy  easy to use , if it's got simple remote  speech remote uh control , like I said , louder , softer , change channel , on , off , remote , it goes beep beep , I can find my my remote without spending half a day looking for it and getting all upset 'cause I can't turn the T_V_ on. So we're gonna have to look at it in a  in this global idea , with the ideas of the industrial uh design.

But , price obviously we have to talk about.

Yep. So what do you think about uh the design  ? Do you think you can make it or uh


But , price obviously we have to talk about.

Yep. So what do you think about uh the design  ? Do you think you can make it or uh

What do you think about uh the design , uh what he was talking about  of the speech recognition ?


Yep. So what do you think about uh the design  ? Do you think you can make it or uh

What do you think about uh the design , uh what he was talking about  of the speech recognition ?


What do you think about uh the design , uh what he was talking about  of the speech recognition ?

Well , uh training is always an issue with uh commands.


Well , uh training is always an issue with uh commands.

So um  might uh  we can perhaps um  do it if the user is willing to spend some time in the training process , uh it could reduce th th uh the overall um cost. Not sure how.  But um anyway , um  I I think also that uh this might impact the battery life. And um so , maybe what we'll have to do is um add something where you can um recharge it wirelessly so that uh  y you know sen send power to it. So uh or maybe uh set it out in the sun and it uh , you know , gets uh , from the light , um a a solar cell inside there


So um  might uh  we can perhaps um  do it if the user is willing to spend some time in the training process , uh it could reduce th th uh the overall um cost. Not sure how.  But um anyway , um  I I think also that uh this might impact the battery life. And um so , maybe what we'll have to do is um add something where you can um recharge it wirelessly so that uh  y you know sen send power to it. So uh or maybe uh set it out in the sun and it uh , you know , gets uh , from the light , um a a solar cell inside there

so that uh you have enough uh juice to do all these fancy things.


So um  might uh  we can perhaps um  do it if the user is willing to spend some time in the training process , uh it could reduce th th uh the overall um cost. Not sure how.  But um anyway , um  I I think also that uh this might impact the battery life. And um so , maybe what we'll have to do is um add something where you can um recharge it wirelessly so that uh  y you know sen send power to it. So uh or maybe uh set it out in the sun and it uh , you know , gets uh , from the light , um a a solar cell inside there

so that uh you have enough uh juice to do all these fancy things.

It seems also like with the speech recognition , yeah , it's a great feature , but if you're watching T_V_ , there's a lot of ambient sound , and it's words. It's not just , you know , noises like something hitting. It's actual speech , so then you have to make sure that the speech recognizer is good enough to filter out the T_V_ speech , and the the user's speech. Otherwise , you can say remote.


so that uh you have enough uh juice to do all these fancy things.

It seems also like with the speech recognition , yeah , it's a great feature , but if you're watching T_V_ , there's a lot of ambient sound , and it's words. It's not just , you know , noises like something hitting. It's actual speech , so then you have to make sure that the speech recognizer is good enough to filter out the T_V_ speech , and the the user's speech. Otherwise , you can say remote.


so that uh you have enough uh juice to do all these fancy things.

It seems also like with the speech recognition , yeah , it's a great feature , but if you're watching T_V_ , there's a lot of ambient sound , and it's words. It's not just , you know , noises like something hitting. It's actual speech , so then you have to make sure that the speech recognizer is good enough to filter out the T_V_ speech , and the the user's speech. Otherwise , you can say remote.

But if someone on the screen is saying the same thing , all of a sudden , you have someone in a movie saying off and your screen dies , because they've triggered the remote control and it's turned off your T_V_.  So , I think if we can find a speech recognizer that can handle those types of problems , then yeah , it'd be a really good marketing gimmick.


It seems also like with the speech recognition , yeah , it's a great feature , but if you're watching T_V_ , there's a lot of ambient sound , and it's words. It's not just , you know , noises like something hitting. It's actual speech , so then you have to make sure that the speech recognizer is good enough to filter out the T_V_ speech , and the the user's speech. Otherwise , you can say remote.

But if someone on the screen is saying the same thing , all of a sudden , you have someone in a movie saying off and your screen dies , because they've triggered the remote control and it's turned off your T_V_.  So , I think if we can find a speech recognizer that can handle those types of problems , then yeah , it'd be a really good marketing gimmick.


But if someone on the screen is saying the same thing , all of a sudden , you have someone in a movie saying off and your screen dies , because they've triggered the remote control and it's turned off your T_V_.  So , I think if we can find a speech recognizer that can handle those types of problems , then yeah , it'd be a really good marketing gimmick.

But , I think we seriously need to consider how that would impact the situation.


But , I think we seriously need to consider how that would impact the situation.

Because tha w  with speech recognition uh th I'm not that good at that idea


Because tha w  with speech recognition uh th I'm not that good at that idea

but th  if it's a one-word recognition , 'cause I know with telephones and cars and things I've seen in the States ,


but th  if it's a one-word recognition , 'cause I know with telephones and cars and things I've seen in the States ,

a friend of mine says call Mom , and it calls up Mom.


a friend of mine says call Mom , and it calls up Mom.

'Kay the radio can be on and everything.


'Kay the radio can be on and everything.

Because I think s with speech recognition , if uh the the remote or like the telephone   it has a exact word that it has to hear.


Because I think s with speech recognition , if uh the the remote or like the telephone   it has a exact word that it has to hear.

I don't think it would come through a sentence in a television. If somebody's speaking on the se the television , they're not gonna stop and say remote ,


I don't think it would come through a sentence in a television. If somebody's speaking on the se the television , they're not gonna stop and say remote ,

okay. So I think that uh something could be designed to recognise single word


I don't think it would come through a sentence in a television. If somebody's speaking on the se the television , they're not gonna stop and say remote ,

okay. So I think that uh something could be designed to recognise single word

Oh yeah. Yeah. No , I think it's a great idea if we can design it to to suit those requirements.


okay. So I think that uh something could be designed to recognise single word

Oh yeah. Yeah. No , I think it's a great idea if we can design it to to suit those requirements.

Like the t like the telephone. No because I  this is this is years ago in the United States where we're driving down and he said call home , and the telephone called immediately


Oh yeah. Yeah. No , I think it's a great idea if we can design it to to suit those requirements.

Like the t like the telephone. No because I  this is this is years ago in the United States where we're driving down and he said call home , and the telephone called immediately


Like the t like the telephone. No because I  this is this is years ago in the United States where we're driving down and he said call home , and the telephone called immediately

Well , what I can uh suggest to you , Christine , okay , uh if you need some uh  the technical feedback , or some training , okay , about uh this facility , especially for the speech recognition , I can recommend you some companies like uh Intel or I_B_M_ , okay , because they're already in this uh speech recognition part , okay. And uh you can maybe have some uh technical backup from them , some kind of a technical tie-up. Okay , and uh if you want , I can coordinate , okay , to get some information , okay , and uh you can uh let me know , okay , so what kind of uh the details you require okay , to add this feature in this project. I don't think it's uh the difficult. And uh we need to know how much is the timeframe you need to develop , apart from uh what  today.


Well , what I can uh suggest to you , Christine , okay , uh if you need some uh  the technical feedback , or some training , okay , about uh this facility , especially for the speech recognition , I can recommend you some companies like uh Intel or I_B_M_ , okay , because they're already in this uh speech recognition part , okay. And uh you can maybe have some uh technical backup from them , some kind of a technical tie-up. Okay , and uh if you want , I can coordinate , okay , to get some information , okay , and uh you can uh let me know , okay , so what kind of uh the details you require okay , to add this feature in this project. I don't think it's uh the difficult. And uh we need to know how much is the timeframe you need to develop , apart from uh what  today.


Well , what I can uh suggest to you , Christine , okay , uh if you need some uh  the technical feedback , or some training , okay , about uh this facility , especially for the speech recognition , I can recommend you some companies like uh Intel or I_B_M_ , okay , because they're already in this uh speech recognition part , okay. And uh you can maybe have some uh technical backup from them , some kind of a technical tie-up. Okay , and uh if you want , I can coordinate , okay , to get some information , okay , and uh you can uh let me know , okay , so what kind of uh the details you require okay , to add this feature in this project. I don't think it's uh the difficult. And uh we need to know how much is the timeframe you need to develop , apart from uh what  today.

From from your side uh , you're gonna have to go back the management and s be more s precise.


From from your side uh , you're gonna have to go back the management and s be more s precise.


Uh  , a risk , take a risk on the market ? Something that's gonna cost more , but could very easily s make a boom in the market ?


Uh  , a risk , take a risk on the market ? Something that's gonna cost more , but could very easily s make a boom in the market ?

Because it has to be something totally different , has to be total totally new. Something that nobody has right now.


Because it has to be something totally different , has to be total totally new. Something that nobody has right now.


Because it has to be something totally different , has to be total totally new. Something that nobody has right now.

but end of the day , you're the sales guy , so I will come back and sit on your head because uh you are going to give your sales projection ,


but end of the day , you're the sales guy , so I will come back and sit on your head because uh you are going to give your sales projection ,

okay. It's uh of course it's uh good to uh tell the management how much it's cost us


okay. It's uh of course it's uh good to uh tell the management how much it's cost us


okay. And uh , so I don't mind to convince , okay , the management to spend some more money on the project , okay , if you can make out of


Yes , okay I don't mind to convince the the management ,


Yes , okay I don't mind to convince the the management ,

The management says , okay , so they they don't want certain facilities , which it's already worked , okay , they want something uh new , okay. I think uh like uh speech recognit definitely they will agree , I don't think they'll say no for that , okay. And uh I hope I can convince the management on that , okay. So if you have any uh new ideas , okay , for uh your  you can always come up and uh you can tell me if you need any uh s special , okay , coordination , okay , between any uh technical companies , which you can uh hide their technology backup , okay , for your uh functional design or technical design , okay , then I am ready to do that. And uh what's your comments about uh


The management says , okay , so they they don't want certain facilities , which it's already worked , okay , they want something uh new , okay. I think uh like uh speech recognit definitely they will agree , I don't think they'll say no for that , okay. And uh I hope I can convince the management on that , okay. So if you have any uh new ideas , okay , for uh your  you can always come up and uh you can tell me if you need any uh s special , okay , coordination , okay , between any uh technical companies , which you can uh hide their technology backup , okay , for your uh functional design or technical design , okay , then I am ready to do that. And uh what's your comments about uh

Um well , I mean , maybe if I go through my presentation , you can sort of see what the user perspective is , and how it ties into the other two comments.


The management says , okay , so they they don't want certain facilities , which it's already worked , okay , they want something uh new , okay. I think uh like uh speech recognit definitely they will agree , I don't think they'll say no for that , okay. And uh I hope I can convince the management on that , okay. So if you have any uh new ideas , okay , for uh your  you can always come up and uh you can tell me if you need any uh s special , okay , coordination , okay , between any uh technical companies , which you can uh hide their technology backup , okay , for your uh functional design or technical design , okay , then I am ready to do that. And uh what's your comments about uh

Um well , I mean , maybe if I go through my presentation , you can sort of see what the user perspective is , and how it ties into the other two comments.

Yeah , so you are finish , Ed , uh so I can uh


Um well , I mean , maybe if I go through my presentation , you can sort of see what the user perspective is , and how it ties into the other two comments.

Yeah , so you are finish , Ed , uh so I can uh


Yeah , so you are finish , Ed , uh so I can uh

Okay , I'll uh hand over to Agnes. Just gonna close this. T Uh where are you , here ?


Okay , I'll uh hand over to Agnes. Just gonna close this. T Uh where are you , here ?


Yeah , and that's fine. Okay. So , basically , the method that we usually use in the user interface design is that we need to look at what people like and what people don't like about existing products. So , in our case , existing remote controls. And then , what the good ideas are , and what the bad ideas are , and why they're bad and good , which isn't always as obvious. We seem to have intuitions about why things are good or things are bad , but when you look , technically , at how it works , sometimes that's not the case. Then we need to decide what functionalities we really want to keep , 'cause that'll feed into both Ed's work and Christine's work. Um and then what the remote control should look like , obviously , once we've got a good idea of what the functionalities are. So , in terms of the functionalities that we need , you obviously need to be able to turn the T_V_ on and off. You need to change channels , both by directly going to a specific channel or by channel surfing. You need to be able to control the volume and then control any menus on the T_V_ to regulate contrast or whatever. So , the problems that people have expressed is that there's too many buttons on remote controls , in general. The buttons  it's not clear what they're supposed to do. Um often , you need to know specific button sequences  to get certain functionalities done , um which you don't necessarily always remember , especially if it's a functionality that you don't use very often. And that the buttons are too small. So , here we've got two examples where here on the left-hand side , you can see a remote control that has lots and lots of buttons.


Yeah , and that's fine. Okay. So , basically , the method that we usually use in the user interface design is that we need to look at what people like and what people don't like about existing products. So , in our case , existing remote controls. And then , what the good ideas are , and what the bad ideas are , and why they're bad and good , which isn't always as obvious. We seem to have intuitions about why things are good or things are bad , but when you look , technically , at how it works , sometimes that's not the case. Then we need to decide what functionalities we really want to keep , 'cause that'll feed into both Ed's work and Christine's work. Um and then what the remote control should look like , obviously , once we've got a good idea of what the functionalities are. So , in terms of the functionalities that we need , you obviously need to be able to turn the T_V_ on and off. You need to change channels , both by directly going to a specific channel or by channel surfing. You need to be able to control the volume and then control any menus on the T_V_ to regulate contrast or whatever. So , the problems that people have expressed is that there's too many buttons on remote controls , in general. The buttons  it's not clear what they're supposed to do. Um often , you need to know specific button sequences  to get certain functionalities done , um which you don't necessarily always remember , especially if it's a functionality that you don't use very often. And that the buttons are too small. So , here we've got two examples where here on the left-hand side , you can see a remote control that has lots and lots of buttons.

The buttons , in a lot of cases , are tiny. Um they're hard to see , and okay , they're labelled , but the labels don't necessarily tell you too much. Whereas , on the other side , you have a much simpler remote control that I think basically has the minimum functionalities  that are needed. And it sort of looks simpler and just less imposing when you first look at it. So , I would be inclined to go sort of towards this , in terms of design , rather than this. And if there's specific functionalities that require more buttons , then we can figure out how to do it with existing um buttons. So my personal preferences are to keep the number of buttons to a limit , or to a minimum , sorry , make frequently used buttons bigger and more strategically placed , so like the on button being really obvious one , the channel changing and the volume , and to keep the design basically sleek and simple.


Yeah , and that's fine. Okay. So , basically , the method that we usually use in the user interface design is that we need to look at what people like and what people don't like about existing products. So , in our case , existing remote controls. And then , what the good ideas are , and what the bad ideas are , and why they're bad and good , which isn't always as obvious. We seem to have intuitions about why things are good or things are bad , but when you look , technically , at how it works , sometimes that's not the case. Then we need to decide what functionalities we really want to keep , 'cause that'll feed into both Ed's work and Christine's work. Um and then what the remote control should look like , obviously , once we've got a good idea of what the functionalities are. So , in terms of the functionalities that we need , you obviously need to be able to turn the T_V_ on and off. You need to change channels , both by directly going to a specific channel or by channel surfing. You need to be able to control the volume and then control any menus on the T_V_ to regulate contrast or whatever. So , the problems that people have expressed is that there's too many buttons on remote controls , in general. The buttons  it's not clear what they're supposed to do. Um often , you need to know specific button sequences  to get certain functionalities done , um which you don't necessarily always remember , especially if it's a functionality that you don't use very often. And that the buttons are too small. So , here we've got two examples where here on the left-hand side , you can see a remote control that has lots and lots of buttons.

The buttons , in a lot of cases , are tiny. Um they're hard to see , and okay , they're labelled , but the labels don't necessarily tell you too much. Whereas , on the other side , you have a much simpler remote control that I think basically has the minimum functionalities  that are needed. And it sort of looks simpler and just less imposing when you first look at it. So , I would be inclined to go sort of towards this , in terms of design , rather than this. And if there's specific functionalities that require more buttons , then we can figure out how to do it with existing um buttons. So my personal preferences are to keep the number of buttons to a limit , or to a minimum , sorry , make frequently used buttons bigger and more strategically placed , so like the on button being really obvious one , the channel changing and the volume , and to keep the design basically sleek and simple.

Which , I think ties into what Christine and Ed have both said fairly reasonably. Um so , that's pretty much it , an I don't know if you guys have any questions or


The buttons , in a lot of cases , are tiny. Um they're hard to see , and okay , they're labelled , but the labels don't necessarily tell you too much. Whereas , on the other side , you have a much simpler remote control that I think basically has the minimum functionalities  that are needed. And it sort of looks simpler and just less imposing when you first look at it. So , I would be inclined to go sort of towards this , in terms of design , rather than this. And if there's specific functionalities that require more buttons , then we can figure out how to do it with existing um buttons. So my personal preferences are to keep the number of buttons to a limit , or to a minimum , sorry , make frequently used buttons bigger and more strategically placed , so like the on button being really obvious one , the channel changing and the volume , and to keep the design basically sleek and simple.

Which , I think ties into what Christine and Ed have both said fairly reasonably. Um so , that's pretty much it , an I don't know if you guys have any questions or

Oh , it's um , seems  very understandable. Clearly your research and uh  and ours uh heading in the same direction ,


Which , I think ties into what Christine and Ed have both said fairly reasonably. Um so , that's pretty much it , an I don't know if you guys have any questions or

Oh , it's um , seems  very understandable. Clearly your research and uh  and ours uh heading in the same direction ,


Which , I think ties into what Christine and Ed have both said fairly reasonably. Um so , that's pretty much it , an I don't know if you guys have any questions or

Oh , it's um , seems  very understandable. Clearly your research and uh  and ours uh heading in the same direction ,

and um uh the only thing that I saw missing from uh your your research that we found was this uh ability to find the doggone thing when you need it.


Oh , it's um , seems  very understandable. Clearly your research and uh  and ours uh heading in the same direction ,

and um uh the only thing that I saw missing from uh your your research that we found was this uh ability to find the doggone thing when you need it.


and um uh the only thing that I saw missing from uh your your research that we found was this uh ability to find the doggone thing when you need it.

So uh , you know , but that's okay. That's why we're all here at the table , so that if we think of it and our research indicates certain things and um w we it's complementary.


So uh , you know , but that's okay. That's why we're all here at the table , so that if we think of it and our research indicates certain things and um w we it's complementary.

I also think that um uh th f the the feel of it is uh , when you hold it , is something that um uh was expressed more in in in in my uh design


I also think that um uh th f the the feel of it is uh , when you hold it , is something that um uh was expressed more in in in in my uh design

and that's logical and normal 'cause those are the parameters that an Industrial Designer's more thinking about , th th the look and the feel ,


and that's logical and normal 'cause those are the parameters that an Industrial Designer's more thinking about , th th the look and the feel ,


and that's logical and normal 'cause those are the parameters that an Industrial Designer's more thinking about , th th the look and the feel ,

Oh , that's definitely a very important factor , especially to users who are gonna be buying the thing and then using it almost on an  daily basis in a lot of cases , I think.


Oh , that's definitely a very important factor , especially to users who are gonna be buying the thing and then using it almost on an  daily basis in a lot of cases , I think.

First. Yep. Mm-hmm.  Okay , so I don't have any questions. Sounds good.


Oh , that's definitely a very important factor , especially to users who are gonna be buying the thing and then using it almost on an  daily basis in a lot of cases , I think.

First. Yep. Mm-hmm.  Okay , so I don't have any questions. Sounds good.

So  for anybody need uh any help , for time being , on this uh subjects , okay , so please come back to me ,


First. Yep. Mm-hmm.  Okay , so I don't have any questions. Sounds good.

So  for anybody need uh any help , for time being , on this uh subjects , okay , so please come back to me ,

and uh Christine , maybe I can uh try to help you to get some uh the technical uh the companies to help you for uh make a design uh slim , okay , and to add some features , like we are talking about , the speech recognition and all.


So  for anybody need uh any help , for time being , on this uh subjects , okay , so please come back to me ,

and uh Christine , maybe I can uh try to help you to get some uh the technical uh the companies to help you for uh make a design uh slim , okay , and to add some features , like we are talking about , the speech recognition and all.

Should we maybe make a decision about what features we actually want to include ,


and uh Christine , maybe I can uh try to help you to get some uh the technical uh the companies to help you for uh make a design uh slim , okay , and to add some features , like we are talking about , the speech recognition and all.

Should we maybe make a decision about what features we actually want to include ,


and uh Christine , maybe I can uh try to help you to get some uh the technical uh the companies to help you for uh make a design uh slim , okay , and to add some features , like we are talking about , the speech recognition and all.

Should we maybe make a decision about what features we actually want to include ,

'cause we've thrown a lot of features onto the table , but do we actually want to incorporate all of them , or have we missed anything ?


Should we maybe make a decision about what features we actually want to include ,

'cause we've thrown a lot of features onto the table , but do we actually want to incorporate all of them , or have we missed anything ?


'cause we've thrown a lot of features onto the table , but do we actually want to incorporate all of them , or have we missed anything ?

Do you wanna go back and look at the closing slide , maybe that would provide some guidance ?


Do you wanna go back and look at the closing slide , maybe that would provide some guidance ?


it says user interf so I'm supposed to do the components concept , supposed to work on the user interface concept ,


it says user interf so I'm supposed to do the components concept , supposed to work on the user interface concept ,

and you're supposed to keep watching the trends. Um and specific instructions will be sent by our our coach. I think we should  do as many features as uh  start with all of them right now


and you're supposed to keep watching the trends. Um and specific instructions will be sent by our our coach. I think we should  do as many features as uh  start with all of them right now

and eliminate them later in the process , that's my suggestion.


and you're supposed to keep watching the trends. Um and specific instructions will be sent by our our coach. I think we should  do as many features as uh  start with all of them right now

and eliminate them later in the process , that's my suggestion.

Okay , that will be great.  And uh I'll send you the the minutes of meet


and eliminate them later in the process , that's my suggestion.

Okay , that will be great.  And uh I'll send you the the minutes of meet


and eliminate them later in the process , that's my suggestion.

Okay , that will be great.  And uh I'll send you the the minutes of meet

No , I I'm just thinking in terms of time ,


Okay , that will be great.  And uh I'll send you the the minutes of meet

No , I I'm just thinking in terms of time ,


No , I I'm just thinking in terms of time ,


Yes , now I'm objecting. No , I mean , I was just thinking is it really practical to start designing something with features that we're just gonna end up throwing away ? I mean , it takes a lot of time and effort for everyone to consider different features , um and s if we spend that time and effort on features that we're not gonna use , maybe it's better to spend it on the f thinking more about features that we actually do want , but


Yes , now I'm objecting. No , I mean , I was just thinking is it really practical to start designing something with features that we're just gonna end up throwing away ? I mean , it takes a lot of time and effort for everyone to consider different features , um and s if we spend that time and effort on features that we're not gonna use , maybe it's better to spend it on the f thinking more about features that we actually do want , but

I think we should take that as an action item for after the meeting ,


I think we should take that as an action item for after the meeting ,


Good morning, everyone, and welcome to this morning's Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received no apologies for absence. Can I ask Members who are present if they wish to declare any interests? Okay, thank you. Item 2 this morning is our final evidence session for our inquiry into targeted funding to improve educational outcomes. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Cabinet Secretary for Education; Steve Davies, director of the education directorate; and Ruth Conway, deputy director, support for learners division. Welcome to all of you, and thank you for your attendance and also for the paper that you've provided in advance. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions, and the first questions are from Llyr Gruffydd.

Bore da. I just want to start by asking some questions around the targeting of the pupil development grant because, clearly, we've had a lot of evidence around this apparent blurring of eligibility to an extent. I'm just wondering how comfortable you are that the money is being targeted appropriately because, clearly, it's being targeted more widely than just those eligible for free school meals, from some of the evidence we've had, but also that it seems to be predominantly focused on low-attaining frees—pupils who are eligible for free school meals.

Thank you, Llyr. I think it's important to be absolutely clear that when it comes to individual interventions, those individual interventions should only be targeted at those children who are eligible for free school meals. But in some cases, schools may use their PDG funding to provide a universal intervention, but we would want to—in challenge advisers' discussions in schools—we'd want to have evidence that that universal intervention would have a disproportionate effect on the outcomes for children on free school meals. So, for instance, if I give you an example in your own region, Llyr: at Brynteg County Primary School in Wrexham, if you look at that primary school in Wrexham, their results for free-school-meal children at the end of their primary school period in school are equivalent to their non-free-school-meal counterparts. So, there is no differentiation in those results. One of the things that they've used their PDG for is to really focus on the concept of growth mindset in school. So, that's a universal thing that they've trained all the teachers in, but what we know is that that has a disproportionate effect on those children who are on free school meals. So, if you're familiar with the concept of a growth mindset, it's about really challenging learners to think that, 'I can do things. If sometimes I fail, I pick myself up, I'm more resilient.' Now, that has been, as I said, trained to all the teachers in the school—it's an ethos for the whole school—but we have seen that the impact on the free-school-meal children has been even greater, and now they're at the same level. So, that's the important distinction. Individual intervention per child has to be targeted at those children who are eligible for free school meals, but sometimes a school will employ a whole-school approach to train their staff, for instance, and that, then, has to demonstrate it has a disproportionate effect on free school meals. So, growth mindset; it may be attachment disorder training for staff, for instance, where we know it's of benefit to everybody, but will have particular benefits for that cohort of students. With regard to more able and talented, you know, Llyr, that this is an area of concern for me, generally, within the Welsh education system; that we've not been particularly good at identifying, supporting and driving attainment for those children. I'm absolutely clear that PDG needs to be used for those children who are eligible to drive potential, whatever the potential of that child is, including more able and talented. And again, I'll give you an example that has been seen as good practice in Pembrokeshire: a window on the world bus, again paid for by schools. I don't know if you're aware of it.