We do ensure that those digital resources include things that the teachers can also print. Most of these are resources for teachers so that the teachers can adapt them for their own use, to suit the learners who are in front of them at any given time. But certainly there are materials there. If there are activities, then those activities can be printed off and handed to pupils so that they can take them home. So, I would be sceptical about that comment. We are thinking of the totality, ultimately.

I think you're right that the availability of technology is an important part of this big picture. The young people talk about websites and blogs, and we're talking about digital resources, so being able to reach those resources, I think, is vital in Wales. It's interesting to note two contradictory remarks from the teaching associations in the letters. One praises what's available digitally, whereas another teaching organisation sees this as more work for teachers. As Mike said, we've created those resources that can be adapted. One teaching organisation says that it just creates more work, while another organisation says that the digital resource is something that's very valuable. Of course, the headteacher at the end was praising the fact that, in a situation of crisis or unacceptable timetables, we have succeeded in creating some resources that will be in the textbook later, but available digitally at an early stage. But I agree with your core comment that technology is vital, and access to that, and also the content of a textbook in some form is vital as well.

Mr Blaker, you would agree that a textbook should be an essential core piece of the resource pack available for each qualification.

I think we wouldn't want to underplay the desirability of textbooks, recognising that different learners have different learning styles and may look to different resources. I think what I'd like to raise is a wider concern about textbooks in their current model, which is very much around the fact that every time there's a change in a specification, there's a new textbook, which is designed around that specification and is endorsed by an awarding body, which is a nice model for a publisher, because every time there's a change, there's an opportunity for a new textbook. There are two concerns that I'd like to raise on that. First, the focus on teaching and learning. Ofsted and also Estyn have raised concerns about the focus in teaching on teaching to the test as a common concern in both nations. I have a concern that having a textbook that is endorsed by the awarding body and is designed specifically around that specification may lead to some of that tendency. And also, there's the sustainability of the model. We know that we're about to go into another round of reforms associated with the curriculum change. That's going to lead to another round of textbooks that may need to be focused on qualifications. I think I'd much rather see that textbooks are seen as a curriculum resource that are broader than, perhaps, the model of endorsement and the current model of publication suggest.


I think you're right that the availability of technology is an important part of this big picture. The young people talk about websites and blogs, and we're talking about digital resources, so being able to reach those resources, I think, is vital in Wales. It's interesting to note two contradictory remarks from the teaching associations in the letters. One praises what's available digitally, whereas another teaching organisation sees this as more work for teachers. As Mike said, we've created those resources that can be adapted. One teaching organisation says that it just creates more work, while another organisation says that the digital resource is something that's very valuable. Of course, the headteacher at the end was praising the fact that, in a situation of crisis or unacceptable timetables, we have succeeded in creating some resources that will be in the textbook later, but available digitally at an early stage. But I agree with your core comment that technology is vital, and access to that, and also the content of a textbook in some form is vital as well.

Mr Blaker, you would agree that a textbook should be an essential core piece of the resource pack available for each qualification.

I think we wouldn't want to underplay the desirability of textbooks, recognising that different learners have different learning styles and may look to different resources. I think what I'd like to raise is a wider concern about textbooks in their current model, which is very much around the fact that every time there's a change in a specification, there's a new textbook, which is designed around that specification and is endorsed by an awarding body, which is a nice model for a publisher, because every time there's a change, there's an opportunity for a new textbook. There are two concerns that I'd like to raise on that. First, the focus on teaching and learning. Ofsted and also Estyn have raised concerns about the focus in teaching on teaching to the test as a common concern in both nations. I have a concern that having a textbook that is endorsed by the awarding body and is designed specifically around that specification may lead to some of that tendency. And also, there's the sustainability of the model. We know that we're about to go into another round of reforms associated with the curriculum change. That's going to lead to another round of textbooks that may need to be focused on qualifications. I think I'd much rather see that textbooks are seen as a curriculum resource that are broader than, perhaps, the model of endorsement and the current model of publication suggest.

So, you don't think that a textbook for each subject should be a core resource for pupils who are learning in advance of examinations.


Mr Blaker, you would agree that a textbook should be an essential core piece of the resource pack available for each qualification.

I think we wouldn't want to underplay the desirability of textbooks, recognising that different learners have different learning styles and may look to different resources. I think what I'd like to raise is a wider concern about textbooks in their current model, which is very much around the fact that every time there's a change in a specification, there's a new textbook, which is designed around that specification and is endorsed by an awarding body, which is a nice model for a publisher, because every time there's a change, there's an opportunity for a new textbook. There are two concerns that I'd like to raise on that. First, the focus on teaching and learning. Ofsted and also Estyn have raised concerns about the focus in teaching on teaching to the test as a common concern in both nations. I have a concern that having a textbook that is endorsed by the awarding body and is designed specifically around that specification may lead to some of that tendency. And also, there's the sustainability of the model. We know that we're about to go into another round of reforms associated with the curriculum change. That's going to lead to another round of textbooks that may need to be focused on qualifications. I think I'd much rather see that textbooks are seen as a curriculum resource that are broader than, perhaps, the model of endorsement and the current model of publication suggest.

So, you don't think that a textbook for each subject should be a core resource for pupils who are learning in advance of examinations.

I'd just like to pick you up on that. I think a textbook for each subject is absolutely an essential part of the broad range of resources that you'd want to see available for people to choose what they prefer, but on a subject, perhaps, rather than a specific specification, because I think there's a tendency to conflate the two, and much of the underlying content that is assessed in one specification, or a new updated specification, will remain unchanged. It is true that there may be a different focus or emphasis, or a different style of questioning, but that can be picked up more nimbly through supplementary digital resources, for example, which can highlight that change, particularly to a teacher, so that they can shape their lesson planning around that. What we are looking at here are reformed GCSEs and reformed A-levels in subjects that are well-established, traditional subjects, and so whilst it is not necessarily the ideal, I think it's important to remember that there is already a good deal of pre-existing resources, including textbooks, out there in schools already. We're not for a moment saying that that is the situation that we would want everybody to be in. I think it might be preferable if the textbook was perfectly bespoke to the course and didn't contain any extraneous material, but that perhaps is an ideal picture and I think we do need to remember that there are already many resources out there that are available to teachers and to students.


I think we wouldn't want to underplay the desirability of textbooks, recognising that different learners have different learning styles and may look to different resources. I think what I'd like to raise is a wider concern about textbooks in their current model, which is very much around the fact that every time there's a change in a specification, there's a new textbook, which is designed around that specification and is endorsed by an awarding body, which is a nice model for a publisher, because every time there's a change, there's an opportunity for a new textbook. There are two concerns that I'd like to raise on that. First, the focus on teaching and learning. Ofsted and also Estyn have raised concerns about the focus in teaching on teaching to the test as a common concern in both nations. I have a concern that having a textbook that is endorsed by the awarding body and is designed specifically around that specification may lead to some of that tendency. And also, there's the sustainability of the model. We know that we're about to go into another round of reforms associated with the curriculum change. That's going to lead to another round of textbooks that may need to be focused on qualifications. I think I'd much rather see that textbooks are seen as a curriculum resource that are broader than, perhaps, the model of endorsement and the current model of publication suggest.

So, you don't think that a textbook for each subject should be a core resource for pupils who are learning in advance of examinations.

I'd just like to pick you up on that. I think a textbook for each subject is absolutely an essential part of the broad range of resources that you'd want to see available for people to choose what they prefer, but on a subject, perhaps, rather than a specific specification, because I think there's a tendency to conflate the two, and much of the underlying content that is assessed in one specification, or a new updated specification, will remain unchanged. It is true that there may be a different focus or emphasis, or a different style of questioning, but that can be picked up more nimbly through supplementary digital resources, for example, which can highlight that change, particularly to a teacher, so that they can shape their lesson planning around that. What we are looking at here are reformed GCSEs and reformed A-levels in subjects that are well-established, traditional subjects, and so whilst it is not necessarily the ideal, I think it's important to remember that there is already a good deal of pre-existing resources, including textbooks, out there in schools already. We're not for a moment saying that that is the situation that we would want everybody to be in. I think it might be preferable if the textbook was perfectly bespoke to the course and didn't contain any extraneous material, but that perhaps is an ideal picture and I think we do need to remember that there are already many resources out there that are available to teachers and to students.

But of course, unlike their peers in perhaps other parts of the UK, we have teachers who are having to go meticulously through some of these other resources that might be available to determine whether they're appropriate for use in the classroom, given that the specification is different in terms of the new qualifications. Can I just ask you about the disadvantage that some learners might face as a result of the lack of textbooks? Mr Blaker, I note that you sought to reassure the committee in some of your opening remarks about the fact that equivalent outcomes are what you aim to achieve in discussion with the WJEC in terms of the outcome of assessments, and I think that that's a very positive thing. But, how do you differentiate between the different learning styles of individual students who are in that cohort to ensure that the disadvantage that one faces because they're somebody who relies particularly heavily on textbook-type learning, traditional sort of swotting up for examinations, versus someone who is much more digitally aware and able to use digital resources—? How do you make sure that it's fair to the cohort as a whole, while still enabling some of these individuals for whom textbooks are important not to face disadvantage within that cohort?


So, you don't think that a textbook for each subject should be a core resource for pupils who are learning in advance of examinations.

I'd just like to pick you up on that. I think a textbook for each subject is absolutely an essential part of the broad range of resources that you'd want to see available for people to choose what they prefer, but on a subject, perhaps, rather than a specific specification, because I think there's a tendency to conflate the two, and much of the underlying content that is assessed in one specification, or a new updated specification, will remain unchanged. It is true that there may be a different focus or emphasis, or a different style of questioning, but that can be picked up more nimbly through supplementary digital resources, for example, which can highlight that change, particularly to a teacher, so that they can shape their lesson planning around that. What we are looking at here are reformed GCSEs and reformed A-levels in subjects that are well-established, traditional subjects, and so whilst it is not necessarily the ideal, I think it's important to remember that there is already a good deal of pre-existing resources, including textbooks, out there in schools already. We're not for a moment saying that that is the situation that we would want everybody to be in. I think it might be preferable if the textbook was perfectly bespoke to the course and didn't contain any extraneous material, but that perhaps is an ideal picture and I think we do need to remember that there are already many resources out there that are available to teachers and to students.

But of course, unlike their peers in perhaps other parts of the UK, we have teachers who are having to go meticulously through some of these other resources that might be available to determine whether they're appropriate for use in the classroom, given that the specification is different in terms of the new qualifications. Can I just ask you about the disadvantage that some learners might face as a result of the lack of textbooks? Mr Blaker, I note that you sought to reassure the committee in some of your opening remarks about the fact that equivalent outcomes are what you aim to achieve in discussion with the WJEC in terms of the outcome of assessments, and I think that that's a very positive thing. But, how do you differentiate between the different learning styles of individual students who are in that cohort to ensure that the disadvantage that one faces because they're somebody who relies particularly heavily on textbook-type learning, traditional sort of swotting up for examinations, versus someone who is much more digitally aware and able to use digital resources—? How do you make sure that it's fair to the cohort as a whole, while still enabling some of these individuals for whom textbooks are important not to face disadvantage within that cohort?

The systems that are in place are very much around making sure that awarding is fair across the whole cohort. It's very difficult—in fact, it would be impossible—to unpick all of the different factors that might affect performance, because you could well have a textbook that's been available for some time, it may be somebody's preferred leaning style to use a textbook, but did they use that textbook effectively? You know, did they open it in revision or did they not open it in revision? So, there are so many different factors that can affect individual performance. I think it's impossible to unpick a particular aspect like the availability of resources. Motivation would be one thing, an individual learner's motivation in the subject. The biggest input would be the quality of teaching. I think evidence has been provided to you by the regional consortia, which we saw yesterday. They particularly wanted to stress this point I think; that the quality of teaching is probably the most dominant and the most important factor in relation to a learner's ultimate performance in the examination.


I'd just like to pick you up on that. I think a textbook for each subject is absolutely an essential part of the broad range of resources that you'd want to see available for people to choose what they prefer, but on a subject, perhaps, rather than a specific specification, because I think there's a tendency to conflate the two, and much of the underlying content that is assessed in one specification, or a new updated specification, will remain unchanged. It is true that there may be a different focus or emphasis, or a different style of questioning, but that can be picked up more nimbly through supplementary digital resources, for example, which can highlight that change, particularly to a teacher, so that they can shape their lesson planning around that. What we are looking at here are reformed GCSEs and reformed A-levels in subjects that are well-established, traditional subjects, and so whilst it is not necessarily the ideal, I think it's important to remember that there is already a good deal of pre-existing resources, including textbooks, out there in schools already. We're not for a moment saying that that is the situation that we would want everybody to be in. I think it might be preferable if the textbook was perfectly bespoke to the course and didn't contain any extraneous material, but that perhaps is an ideal picture and I think we do need to remember that there are already many resources out there that are available to teachers and to students.

But of course, unlike their peers in perhaps other parts of the UK, we have teachers who are having to go meticulously through some of these other resources that might be available to determine whether they're appropriate for use in the classroom, given that the specification is different in terms of the new qualifications. Can I just ask you about the disadvantage that some learners might face as a result of the lack of textbooks? Mr Blaker, I note that you sought to reassure the committee in some of your opening remarks about the fact that equivalent outcomes are what you aim to achieve in discussion with the WJEC in terms of the outcome of assessments, and I think that that's a very positive thing. But, how do you differentiate between the different learning styles of individual students who are in that cohort to ensure that the disadvantage that one faces because they're somebody who relies particularly heavily on textbook-type learning, traditional sort of swotting up for examinations, versus someone who is much more digitally aware and able to use digital resources—? How do you make sure that it's fair to the cohort as a whole, while still enabling some of these individuals for whom textbooks are important not to face disadvantage within that cohort?

The systems that are in place are very much around making sure that awarding is fair across the whole cohort. It's very difficult—in fact, it would be impossible—to unpick all of the different factors that might affect performance, because you could well have a textbook that's been available for some time, it may be somebody's preferred leaning style to use a textbook, but did they use that textbook effectively? You know, did they open it in revision or did they not open it in revision? So, there are so many different factors that can affect individual performance. I think it's impossible to unpick a particular aspect like the availability of resources. Motivation would be one thing, an individual learner's motivation in the subject. The biggest input would be the quality of teaching. I think evidence has been provided to you by the regional consortia, which we saw yesterday. They particularly wanted to stress this point I think; that the quality of teaching is probably the most dominant and the most important factor in relation to a learner's ultimate performance in the examination.

I understand that, but you also understand that someone who doesn't have the resources that they feel are best suited to them face some element of a greater disadvantage than others for whom, perhaps, textbooks are less important.


But of course, unlike their peers in perhaps other parts of the UK, we have teachers who are having to go meticulously through some of these other resources that might be available to determine whether they're appropriate for use in the classroom, given that the specification is different in terms of the new qualifications. Can I just ask you about the disadvantage that some learners might face as a result of the lack of textbooks? Mr Blaker, I note that you sought to reassure the committee in some of your opening remarks about the fact that equivalent outcomes are what you aim to achieve in discussion with the WJEC in terms of the outcome of assessments, and I think that that's a very positive thing. But, how do you differentiate between the different learning styles of individual students who are in that cohort to ensure that the disadvantage that one faces because they're somebody who relies particularly heavily on textbook-type learning, traditional sort of swotting up for examinations, versus someone who is much more digitally aware and able to use digital resources—? How do you make sure that it's fair to the cohort as a whole, while still enabling some of these individuals for whom textbooks are important not to face disadvantage within that cohort?

The systems that are in place are very much around making sure that awarding is fair across the whole cohort. It's very difficult—in fact, it would be impossible—to unpick all of the different factors that might affect performance, because you could well have a textbook that's been available for some time, it may be somebody's preferred leaning style to use a textbook, but did they use that textbook effectively? You know, did they open it in revision or did they not open it in revision? So, there are so many different factors that can affect individual performance. I think it's impossible to unpick a particular aspect like the availability of resources. Motivation would be one thing, an individual learner's motivation in the subject. The biggest input would be the quality of teaching. I think evidence has been provided to you by the regional consortia, which we saw yesterday. They particularly wanted to stress this point I think; that the quality of teaching is probably the most dominant and the most important factor in relation to a learner's ultimate performance in the examination.

I understand that, but you also understand that someone who doesn't have the resources that they feel are best suited to them face some element of a greater disadvantage than others for whom, perhaps, textbooks are less important.

I think also, perhaps, related to that, it is important to mention digital literacy here. Every young person in Wales, I would hope, taking GCSE or A-level, should have that digital literacy in order to source the valuable materials available—that they should have those skills. Then, they have the choice whether they go down the digital route, or do they do as Mike suggested—much of the digital material can be printed—or do they then turn to textbooks, in the hope that those would be available? That would then allow for a pupil's personal learning choice to be reflected. It's also important for teachers to confirm that their ways of teaching do support these alternative approaches taken by pupils. Not every pupil will choose to learn or revise in exactly the same way. So, the flexibility for the pupil is very important, I think.


The systems that are in place are very much around making sure that awarding is fair across the whole cohort. It's very difficult—in fact, it would be impossible—to unpick all of the different factors that might affect performance, because you could well have a textbook that's been available for some time, it may be somebody's preferred leaning style to use a textbook, but did they use that textbook effectively? You know, did they open it in revision or did they not open it in revision? So, there are so many different factors that can affect individual performance. I think it's impossible to unpick a particular aspect like the availability of resources. Motivation would be one thing, an individual learner's motivation in the subject. The biggest input would be the quality of teaching. I think evidence has been provided to you by the regional consortia, which we saw yesterday. They particularly wanted to stress this point I think; that the quality of teaching is probably the most dominant and the most important factor in relation to a learner's ultimate performance in the examination.

I understand that, but you also understand that someone who doesn't have the resources that they feel are best suited to them face some element of a greater disadvantage than others for whom, perhaps, textbooks are less important.

I think also, perhaps, related to that, it is important to mention digital literacy here. Every young person in Wales, I would hope, taking GCSE or A-level, should have that digital literacy in order to source the valuable materials available—that they should have those skills. Then, they have the choice whether they go down the digital route, or do they do as Mike suggested—much of the digital material can be printed—or do they then turn to textbooks, in the hope that those would be available? That would then allow for a pupil's personal learning choice to be reflected. It's also important for teachers to confirm that their ways of teaching do support these alternative approaches taken by pupils. Not every pupil will choose to learn or revise in exactly the same way. So, the flexibility for the pupil is very important, I think.

I understand that, but I've got people in my constituency who haven't even got a broadband link at home, so there's a digital disadvantage as well. Can I just ask you about the reason why this has taking so long to sort out? It was back in 2015 that concerns were first raised about the availability of textbooks in both English and Welsh for the new qualifications. We're three years on, what on earth has been happening in the interim and why is it taking so long? If you've got these resources digitally, why can't they just be compounded into textbooks pretty straightforwardly?


I understand that, but you also understand that someone who doesn't have the resources that they feel are best suited to them face some element of a greater disadvantage than others for whom, perhaps, textbooks are less important.

I think also, perhaps, related to that, it is important to mention digital literacy here. Every young person in Wales, I would hope, taking GCSE or A-level, should have that digital literacy in order to source the valuable materials available—that they should have those skills. Then, they have the choice whether they go down the digital route, or do they do as Mike suggested—much of the digital material can be printed—or do they then turn to textbooks, in the hope that those would be available? That would then allow for a pupil's personal learning choice to be reflected. It's also important for teachers to confirm that their ways of teaching do support these alternative approaches taken by pupils. Not every pupil will choose to learn or revise in exactly the same way. So, the flexibility for the pupil is very important, I think.

I understand that, but I've got people in my constituency who haven't even got a broadband link at home, so there's a digital disadvantage as well. Can I just ask you about the reason why this has taking so long to sort out? It was back in 2015 that concerns were first raised about the availability of textbooks in both English and Welsh for the new qualifications. We're three years on, what on earth has been happening in the interim and why is it taking so long? If you've got these resources digitally, why can't they just be compounded into textbooks pretty straightforwardly?

I think the main reason for that is that there are three series of reforms of qualifications that have happened. There were some in 2015, other subjects in 2016, and other subjects in 2017. Those three cycles of reform have all suffered from the short timetable that was between approving a qualification and publishers being able to start the work. Perhaps an interesting comparison would be a subject being taught for the first time in 2015—where that subject has reached now in terms of resources. I would hope that each one of those subjects have more available now in terms of resources, and therefore we are adding each year—not textbooks but digital resources. There are more past papers available, of course. We are working on sample work at the request of teachers. So, every subject is moving on over a period of time of five to six years while that specification is being studied. But those same difficulties have, unfortunately, affected 2015 subjects and 2017 subjects, and that's why we're discussing the same thing in 2018.


I think also, perhaps, related to that, it is important to mention digital literacy here. Every young person in Wales, I would hope, taking GCSE or A-level, should have that digital literacy in order to source the valuable materials available—that they should have those skills. Then, they have the choice whether they go down the digital route, or do they do as Mike suggested—much of the digital material can be printed—or do they then turn to textbooks, in the hope that those would be available? That would then allow for a pupil's personal learning choice to be reflected. It's also important for teachers to confirm that their ways of teaching do support these alternative approaches taken by pupils. Not every pupil will choose to learn or revise in exactly the same way. So, the flexibility for the pupil is very important, I think.

I understand that, but I've got people in my constituency who haven't even got a broadband link at home, so there's a digital disadvantage as well. Can I just ask you about the reason why this has taking so long to sort out? It was back in 2015 that concerns were first raised about the availability of textbooks in both English and Welsh for the new qualifications. We're three years on, what on earth has been happening in the interim and why is it taking so long? If you've got these resources digitally, why can't they just be compounded into textbooks pretty straightforwardly?

I think the main reason for that is that there are three series of reforms of qualifications that have happened. There were some in 2015, other subjects in 2016, and other subjects in 2017. Those three cycles of reform have all suffered from the short timetable that was between approving a qualification and publishers being able to start the work. Perhaps an interesting comparison would be a subject being taught for the first time in 2015—where that subject has reached now in terms of resources. I would hope that each one of those subjects have more available now in terms of resources, and therefore we are adding each year—not textbooks but digital resources. There are more past papers available, of course. We are working on sample work at the request of teachers. So, every subject is moving on over a period of time of five to six years while that specification is being studied. But those same difficulties have, unfortunately, affected 2015 subjects and 2017 subjects, and that's why we're discussing the same thing in 2018.

So, it's the scale of the challenge and the volume of the work?


I understand that, but I've got people in my constituency who haven't even got a broadband link at home, so there's a digital disadvantage as well. Can I just ask you about the reason why this has taking so long to sort out? It was back in 2015 that concerns were first raised about the availability of textbooks in both English and Welsh for the new qualifications. We're three years on, what on earth has been happening in the interim and why is it taking so long? If you've got these resources digitally, why can't they just be compounded into textbooks pretty straightforwardly?

I think the main reason for that is that there are three series of reforms of qualifications that have happened. There were some in 2015, other subjects in 2016, and other subjects in 2017. Those three cycles of reform have all suffered from the short timetable that was between approving a qualification and publishers being able to start the work. Perhaps an interesting comparison would be a subject being taught for the first time in 2015—where that subject has reached now in terms of resources. I would hope that each one of those subjects have more available now in terms of resources, and therefore we are adding each year—not textbooks but digital resources. There are more past papers available, of course. We are working on sample work at the request of teachers. So, every subject is moving on over a period of time of five to six years while that specification is being studied. But those same difficulties have, unfortunately, affected 2015 subjects and 2017 subjects, and that's why we're discussing the same thing in 2018.

So, it's the scale of the challenge and the volume of the work?


I think the main reason for that is that there are three series of reforms of qualifications that have happened. There were some in 2015, other subjects in 2016, and other subjects in 2017. Those three cycles of reform have all suffered from the short timetable that was between approving a qualification and publishers being able to start the work. Perhaps an interesting comparison would be a subject being taught for the first time in 2015—where that subject has reached now in terms of resources. I would hope that each one of those subjects have more available now in terms of resources, and therefore we are adding each year—not textbooks but digital resources. There are more past papers available, of course. We are working on sample work at the request of teachers. So, every subject is moving on over a period of time of five to six years while that specification is being studied. But those same difficulties have, unfortunately, affected 2015 subjects and 2017 subjects, and that's why we're discussing the same thing in 2018.

So, it's the scale of the challenge and the volume of the work?

I think Gareth, in the evidence that he has provided to the committee previously, has said about the timeline, the schedule, for reforms. Now, that's a schedule that we inherited and was largely dominated by the schedule for reforms in England. Now that we've reached a point of divergence in GCSEs and A-levels, between England and Wales, it gives us much more agency in the future to establish a timeline that doesn't place the pressures on the system. So, Gareth has quite rightly pointed out that there are three waves of reforms, but the pressures that build up in the first wave are consequential onto the next wave and the wave after that. So, the whole system has been pressured both from a regulatory perspective of the approval process, the awarding body preparing its submissions to use, and then system readiness thereafter.


So, it's the scale of the challenge and the volume of the work?

I think Gareth, in the evidence that he has provided to the committee previously, has said about the timeline, the schedule, for reforms. Now, that's a schedule that we inherited and was largely dominated by the schedule for reforms in England. Now that we've reached a point of divergence in GCSEs and A-levels, between England and Wales, it gives us much more agency in the future to establish a timeline that doesn't place the pressures on the system. So, Gareth has quite rightly pointed out that there are three waves of reforms, but the pressures that build up in the first wave are consequential onto the next wave and the wave after that. So, the whole system has been pressured both from a regulatory perspective of the approval process, the awarding body preparing its submissions to use, and then system readiness thereafter.

That timeline was obviously set by the Welsh Government. I assume that advice was given by WJEC and Qualifications Wales and your predecessor organisation to the Welsh Government at that time protesting about the timescale that you were being expected to abide by.


I think Gareth, in the evidence that he has provided to the committee previously, has said about the timeline, the schedule, for reforms. Now, that's a schedule that we inherited and was largely dominated by the schedule for reforms in England. Now that we've reached a point of divergence in GCSEs and A-levels, between England and Wales, it gives us much more agency in the future to establish a timeline that doesn't place the pressures on the system. So, Gareth has quite rightly pointed out that there are three waves of reforms, but the pressures that build up in the first wave are consequential onto the next wave and the wave after that. So, the whole system has been pressured both from a regulatory perspective of the approval process, the awarding body preparing its submissions to use, and then system readiness thereafter.

That timeline was obviously set by the Welsh Government. I assume that advice was given by WJEC and Qualifications Wales and your predecessor organisation to the Welsh Government at that time protesting about the timescale that you were being expected to abide by.

Yes, and similarly in England, the examination boards working in England would have provided the same advice to the Government there. And, of course, the Welsh Government programme was associated with the reform programme in England, in particularly for those A-level subjects, where there was a strong influence from the universities across the UK in terms of what they wanted to see differently in the A-level subjects. So, England and Wales have run on a very short timetable common to both countries, and I would say that every exam board and every publisher has seen this very challenging in Wales and England. But our advice is that there is a real need for between 18 months and two years from completing a specification that has been approved, then being able to work with teachers on what their needs and requirements will be, thinking about what the teaching programme will be, and then starting to work with publishers and get resources available—ideally, with a year of preparation then for the teacher before they start teaching. So, as they will know what resources will be available, we'll be able to discuss the use of those resources in our professional development programmes, and then that timeline is convenient for everybody.


I think Gareth, in the evidence that he has provided to the committee previously, has said about the timeline, the schedule, for reforms. Now, that's a schedule that we inherited and was largely dominated by the schedule for reforms in England. Now that we've reached a point of divergence in GCSEs and A-levels, between England and Wales, it gives us much more agency in the future to establish a timeline that doesn't place the pressures on the system. So, Gareth has quite rightly pointed out that there are three waves of reforms, but the pressures that build up in the first wave are consequential onto the next wave and the wave after that. So, the whole system has been pressured both from a regulatory perspective of the approval process, the awarding body preparing its submissions to use, and then system readiness thereafter.

That timeline was obviously set by the Welsh Government. I assume that advice was given by WJEC and Qualifications Wales and your predecessor organisation to the Welsh Government at that time protesting about the timescale that you were being expected to abide by.

Yes, and similarly in England, the examination boards working in England would have provided the same advice to the Government there. And, of course, the Welsh Government programme was associated with the reform programme in England, in particularly for those A-level subjects, where there was a strong influence from the universities across the UK in terms of what they wanted to see differently in the A-level subjects. So, England and Wales have run on a very short timetable common to both countries, and I would say that every exam board and every publisher has seen this very challenging in Wales and England. But our advice is that there is a real need for between 18 months and two years from completing a specification that has been approved, then being able to work with teachers on what their needs and requirements will be, thinking about what the teaching programme will be, and then starting to work with publishers and get resources available—ideally, with a year of preparation then for the teacher before they start teaching. So, as they will know what resources will be available, we'll be able to discuss the use of those resources in our professional development programmes, and then that timeline is convenient for everybody.

Okay. Darren, I've got to bring Llyr in now.


That timeline was obviously set by the Welsh Government. I assume that advice was given by WJEC and Qualifications Wales and your predecessor organisation to the Welsh Government at that time protesting about the timescale that you were being expected to abide by.

Yes, and similarly in England, the examination boards working in England would have provided the same advice to the Government there. And, of course, the Welsh Government programme was associated with the reform programme in England, in particularly for those A-level subjects, where there was a strong influence from the universities across the UK in terms of what they wanted to see differently in the A-level subjects. So, England and Wales have run on a very short timetable common to both countries, and I would say that every exam board and every publisher has seen this very challenging in Wales and England. But our advice is that there is a real need for between 18 months and two years from completing a specification that has been approved, then being able to work with teachers on what their needs and requirements will be, thinking about what the teaching programme will be, and then starting to work with publishers and get resources available—ideally, with a year of preparation then for the teacher before they start teaching. So, as they will know what resources will be available, we'll be able to discuss the use of those resources in our professional development programmes, and then that timeline is convenient for everybody.

Okay. Darren, I've got to bring Llyr in now.

Estyn, NAHT, UCAC, NASUWT, WJEC and Qualifications Wales have pointed to the way in which the Government has managed the reforms that have been happening over the past few years as one of the things that has led to some of these difficulties. You mentioned the fact that they come wave upon wave. Well, what about the tsunami of curriculum reform that we're currently facing? That is, how confident can we be that the situation won't deteriorate as the new curriculum is introduced—rather than improve?


Yes, and similarly in England, the examination boards working in England would have provided the same advice to the Government there. And, of course, the Welsh Government programme was associated with the reform programme in England, in particularly for those A-level subjects, where there was a strong influence from the universities across the UK in terms of what they wanted to see differently in the A-level subjects. So, England and Wales have run on a very short timetable common to both countries, and I would say that every exam board and every publisher has seen this very challenging in Wales and England. But our advice is that there is a real need for between 18 months and two years from completing a specification that has been approved, then being able to work with teachers on what their needs and requirements will be, thinking about what the teaching programme will be, and then starting to work with publishers and get resources available—ideally, with a year of preparation then for the teacher before they start teaching. So, as they will know what resources will be available, we'll be able to discuss the use of those resources in our professional development programmes, and then that timeline is convenient for everybody.

Okay. Darren, I've got to bring Llyr in now.

Estyn, NAHT, UCAC, NASUWT, WJEC and Qualifications Wales have pointed to the way in which the Government has managed the reforms that have been happening over the past few years as one of the things that has led to some of these difficulties. You mentioned the fact that they come wave upon wave. Well, what about the tsunami of curriculum reform that we're currently facing? That is, how confident can we be that the situation won't deteriorate as the new curriculum is introduced—rather than improve?

That is a very key question, isn't it? We have started to discuss this, specifically in particular in a forum that includes publishers in Wales, with the Welsh Government around the table and Qualifications Wales around the table. I think one of the very interesting questions and important questions is: what will the nature of the information available in April 2019 be in terms of the new curriculum? At what level of detail will it be? To what extent will it be adapted again after April 2019? Is it detailed enough, really, for teachers to start discussing their programmes of teaching, and that we then still have a role with publishers, even though this is for this curriculum and not for qualifications? WJEC has a tradition of publishing resources over the key stages and other key stages as well. I think there is a need to discuss the implications of the timetable as it starts to appear, because there is a need to start teaching the new curriculum in September 2022. If we're talking about a year of preparation, that brings us back to September 2021. If we're talking about working on resources available for that preparation year, we're talking about September 2020. So, the timetable does appear already tight, particularly if there's something that's not quite certain about that curriculum statement in 2019, and that there is a lot of work to turn that into teaching programmes. So, I think it is a key question, and I can't be confident at the moment that this is going to work.


Okay. Darren, I've got to bring Llyr in now.

Estyn, NAHT, UCAC, NASUWT, WJEC and Qualifications Wales have pointed to the way in which the Government has managed the reforms that have been happening over the past few years as one of the things that has led to some of these difficulties. You mentioned the fact that they come wave upon wave. Well, what about the tsunami of curriculum reform that we're currently facing? That is, how confident can we be that the situation won't deteriorate as the new curriculum is introduced—rather than improve?

That is a very key question, isn't it? We have started to discuss this, specifically in particular in a forum that includes publishers in Wales, with the Welsh Government around the table and Qualifications Wales around the table. I think one of the very interesting questions and important questions is: what will the nature of the information available in April 2019 be in terms of the new curriculum? At what level of detail will it be? To what extent will it be adapted again after April 2019? Is it detailed enough, really, for teachers to start discussing their programmes of teaching, and that we then still have a role with publishers, even though this is for this curriculum and not for qualifications? WJEC has a tradition of publishing resources over the key stages and other key stages as well. I think there is a need to discuss the implications of the timetable as it starts to appear, because there is a need to start teaching the new curriculum in September 2022. If we're talking about a year of preparation, that brings us back to September 2021. If we're talking about working on resources available for that preparation year, we're talking about September 2020. So, the timetable does appear already tight, particularly if there's something that's not quite certain about that curriculum statement in 2019, and that there is a lot of work to turn that into teaching programmes. So, I think it is a key question, and I can't be confident at the moment that this is going to work.


Estyn, NAHT, UCAC, NASUWT, WJEC and Qualifications Wales have pointed to the way in which the Government has managed the reforms that have been happening over the past few years as one of the things that has led to some of these difficulties. You mentioned the fact that they come wave upon wave. Well, what about the tsunami of curriculum reform that we're currently facing? That is, how confident can we be that the situation won't deteriorate as the new curriculum is introduced—rather than improve?

That is a very key question, isn't it? We have started to discuss this, specifically in particular in a forum that includes publishers in Wales, with the Welsh Government around the table and Qualifications Wales around the table. I think one of the very interesting questions and important questions is: what will the nature of the information available in April 2019 be in terms of the new curriculum? At what level of detail will it be? To what extent will it be adapted again after April 2019? Is it detailed enough, really, for teachers to start discussing their programmes of teaching, and that we then still have a role with publishers, even though this is for this curriculum and not for qualifications? WJEC has a tradition of publishing resources over the key stages and other key stages as well. I think there is a need to discuss the implications of the timetable as it starts to appear, because there is a need to start teaching the new curriculum in September 2022. If we're talking about a year of preparation, that brings us back to September 2021. If we're talking about working on resources available for that preparation year, we're talking about September 2020. So, the timetable does appear already tight, particularly if there's something that's not quite certain about that curriculum statement in 2019, and that there is a lot of work to turn that into teaching programmes. So, I think it is a key question, and I can't be confident at the moment that this is going to work.

I think one of the big differences is it's a tsunami we can see coming. So, young people will be assessed for the first time, assuming linear exams, in the summer 2027, which is some way away, and, actually, given the reform process historically, this is probably the most foresight we've seen of a big change like this. There is a big dependency on the curriculum and the curriculum being described in such a way that we can relate qualifications to that curriculum, because qualifications should relate to the curriculum rather than drive the curriculum, so we do need to see something coming out of that. I think, for us, once we've seen the curriculum, and we've got better sight of it, we'll be able to plan things out. We've already started engagement with awarding bodies over the possible supply chain for these new qualifications, and, ultimately, there'll be a go/no-go decision that would need to be made, probably in 2023, which would be that if the conditions don't appear right for safe implementation, then we would make a recommendation to Welsh Government that these reforms are delayed in terms of the qualification, not in terms of the curriculum, for a year to allow the system to be able to catch up. So, we're starting to plan out not only the whole of the process, but also thinking about where we might have to make key decisions.


That is a very key question, isn't it? We have started to discuss this, specifically in particular in a forum that includes publishers in Wales, with the Welsh Government around the table and Qualifications Wales around the table. I think one of the very interesting questions and important questions is: what will the nature of the information available in April 2019 be in terms of the new curriculum? At what level of detail will it be? To what extent will it be adapted again after April 2019? Is it detailed enough, really, for teachers to start discussing their programmes of teaching, and that we then still have a role with publishers, even though this is for this curriculum and not for qualifications? WJEC has a tradition of publishing resources over the key stages and other key stages as well. I think there is a need to discuss the implications of the timetable as it starts to appear, because there is a need to start teaching the new curriculum in September 2022. If we're talking about a year of preparation, that brings us back to September 2021. If we're talking about working on resources available for that preparation year, we're talking about September 2020. So, the timetable does appear already tight, particularly if there's something that's not quite certain about that curriculum statement in 2019, and that there is a lot of work to turn that into teaching programmes. So, I think it is a key question, and I can't be confident at the moment that this is going to work.

I think one of the big differences is it's a tsunami we can see coming. So, young people will be assessed for the first time, assuming linear exams, in the summer 2027, which is some way away, and, actually, given the reform process historically, this is probably the most foresight we've seen of a big change like this. There is a big dependency on the curriculum and the curriculum being described in such a way that we can relate qualifications to that curriculum, because qualifications should relate to the curriculum rather than drive the curriculum, so we do need to see something coming out of that. I think, for us, once we've seen the curriculum, and we've got better sight of it, we'll be able to plan things out. We've already started engagement with awarding bodies over the possible supply chain for these new qualifications, and, ultimately, there'll be a go/no-go decision that would need to be made, probably in 2023, which would be that if the conditions don't appear right for safe implementation, then we would make a recommendation to Welsh Government that these reforms are delayed in terms of the qualification, not in terms of the curriculum, for a year to allow the system to be able to catch up. So, we're starting to plan out not only the whole of the process, but also thinking about where we might have to make key decisions.

Just one very brief comment in that context: I think that the comment of the consortia jointly is important there. They emphasise, in the context of the curriculum, the importance of the autonomy of teachers in interpreting and providing, therefore I think we truly need to discuss that. Does that suggest that there won't be so much need for national resources, or are those resources required to support that autonomy in any case? We need to discuss that at an early stage and in detail, I think.


I think one of the big differences is it's a tsunami we can see coming. So, young people will be assessed for the first time, assuming linear exams, in the summer 2027, which is some way away, and, actually, given the reform process historically, this is probably the most foresight we've seen of a big change like this. There is a big dependency on the curriculum and the curriculum being described in such a way that we can relate qualifications to that curriculum, because qualifications should relate to the curriculum rather than drive the curriculum, so we do need to see something coming out of that. I think, for us, once we've seen the curriculum, and we've got better sight of it, we'll be able to plan things out. We've already started engagement with awarding bodies over the possible supply chain for these new qualifications, and, ultimately, there'll be a go/no-go decision that would need to be made, probably in 2023, which would be that if the conditions don't appear right for safe implementation, then we would make a recommendation to Welsh Government that these reforms are delayed in terms of the qualification, not in terms of the curriculum, for a year to allow the system to be able to catch up. So, we're starting to plan out not only the whole of the process, but also thinking about where we might have to make key decisions.

Just one very brief comment in that context: I think that the comment of the consortia jointly is important there. They emphasise, in the context of the curriculum, the importance of the autonomy of teachers in interpreting and providing, therefore I think we truly need to discuss that. Does that suggest that there won't be so much need for national resources, or are those resources required to support that autonomy in any case? We need to discuss that at an early stage and in detail, I think.

Yes, certainly, and one is concerned that that conversation isn't already happening, but, yes, okay, you've made that point clearly. If I could return, therefore, to the commercial issue—clearly, there is a shortage of providers in Wales, and we are reliant on others. You suggested that the WJEC may be interested in stepping up and taking some sort of role if regulations were changed. I assume that that would be something that you would be eager to see happening in terms of the change to regulation in that context.


Right first time this time. Nu There we go. It's not that complicated , but I get it wrong every time.

Okay so we are just waiting for Matthew .


Okay so we are just waiting for Matthew .

Mm. Uh  So I suggest we start the meeting uh without Matthew uh


Mm. Uh  So I suggest we start the meeting uh without Matthew uh


Mm. Uh  So I suggest we start the meeting uh without Matthew uh

he's uh obviously late for some reason.  Good. Um. Today uh we will uh talk about uh conceptual design. I hope uh you both did some uh some work uh concerning a uh conceptual design.


he's uh obviously late for some reason.  Good. Um. Today uh we will uh talk about uh conceptual design. I hope uh you both did some uh some work uh concerning a uh conceptual design.


he's uh obviously late for some reason.  Good. Um. Today uh we will uh talk about uh conceptual design. I hope uh you both did some uh some work uh concerning a uh conceptual design.

Um this will be the uh agenda for the meeting uh . Uh I will take some minutes uh again.


Um this will be the uh agenda for the meeting uh . Uh I will take some minutes uh again.

Um we will have the presentations of y of you different team members ,


Um we will have the presentations of y of you different team members ,


Um we will have the presentations of y of you different team members ,

and then try to come to decisions uh about the concepts uh you have presented. So and that uh will uh


and then try to come to decisions uh about the concepts uh you have presented. So and that uh will uh


and then try to come to decisions uh about the concepts uh you have presented. So and that uh will uh

we have some uh forty minutes uh to complete this uh.


we have some uh forty minutes uh to complete this uh.

So um who has the fir do you ha Anna do you have your presentation ready ?


we have some uh forty minutes uh to complete this uh.

So um who has the fir do you ha Anna do you have your presentation ready ?

I have a presentation , I'm just making this


So um who has the fir do you ha Anna do you have your presentation ready ?

I have a presentation , I'm just making this

Yeah I think   yeah the  Matthew it is it's important that Matthew yeah is here


I have a presentation , I'm just making this

Yeah I think   yeah the  Matthew it is it's important that Matthew yeah is here

because it's really a a team uh project with a team


Yeah I think   yeah the  Matthew it is it's important that Matthew yeah is here

because it's really a a team uh project with a team


because it's really a a team uh project with a team

and if someone is not here then we cannot


and if someone is not here then we cannot


and if someone is not here then we cannot

Okay I'll just email you this file , my presentation.


Okay I'll just email you this file , my presentation.


Yeah I sent you the slides , you didn't see them ?


Mm-hmm. Okay so this is just a presentation on uh the trends that we're gonna use to make the product stand out from the rest of the products out there at the moment. Um can I just put this on ? So we have to work out a way  what we can do with our product to make it stand out and make it so people wanna buy it. Um. This is  to do this I will not remove my microphone.  We basically used um some focus group surveys which I went through with you last time , the main results of that , and um some research on the current design um and fashion trends that are out there at the moment um ,


Mm-hmm. Okay so this is just a presentation on uh the trends that we're gonna use to make the product stand out from the rest of the products out there at the moment. Um can I just put this on ? So we have to work out a way  what we can do with our product to make it stand out and make it so people wanna buy it. Um. This is  to do this I will not remove my microphone.  We basically used um some focus group surveys which I went through with you last time , the main results of that , and um some research on the current design um and fashion trends that are out there at the moment um ,

and as part of this  The important aspects that came out were things that we've already discussed really. The most important by far was the look and feel of it. It needs to be something that's very different from everything else out there. It needs to stand out . It needs to be not functional like the rest of the things out there at the moment. Most people find remote controls boring at the moment , we need to have something that looks interesting , that looks exciting , that will stand out. People will wanna buy it. Um  That was twice as i important as the next item on here which is that it has to be technologically innovative  has to have something else , apart from just the look of it. People have to then think about it and say  got something there that I want. That's a really cool feature , and it has to make them wanna buy it again. Third on the list , and again innovative was twice as important as this last um aspect , it has to be easy to use. So they have to be able to  be able to look at it and have some intuitive idea of how to use it um. Drawing on the fashion trends at the moment , uh fruit and vegetables um. This is basically talking about just the the feel of it , so probably not the smell of it , but the bright colours , um eye-catching , really bold designs , and a spongy feel.


and as part of this  The important aspects that came out were things that we've already discussed really. The most important by far was the look and feel of it. It needs to be something that's very different from everything else out there. It needs to stand out . It needs to be not functional like the rest of the things out there at the moment. Most people find remote controls boring at the moment , we need to have something that looks interesting , that looks exciting , that will stand out. People will wanna buy it. Um  That was twice as i important as the next item on here which is that it has to be technologically innovative  has to have something else , apart from just the look of it. People have to then think about it and say  got something there that I want. That's a really cool feature , and it has to make them wanna buy it again. Third on the list , and again innovative was twice as important as this last um aspect , it has to be easy to use. So they have to be able to  be able to look at it and have some intuitive idea of how to use it um. Drawing on the fashion trends at the moment , uh fruit and vegetables um. This is basically talking about just the the feel of it , so probably not the smell of it , but the bright colours , um eye-catching , really bold designs , and a spongy feel.


Um I had a talk to the design people about this , but having a remote that's tactile , that feels different , that would be really cool. That would make it stand out. Um.


Um I had a talk to the design people about this , but having a remote that's tactile , that feels different , that would be really cool. That would make it stand out. Um.

So can you repeat and be more precise about what you just said ?


So can you repeat and be more precise about what you just said ?


ma make it not necessar sp spongy is the current thing. Spongy is the current texture , but basically there are no reports no remotes at the moment which are spongy or tactile at all , so if we make it like maybe furry or soft or something , that'll be something that sets it apart ,


ma make it not necessar sp spongy is the current thing. Spongy is the current texture , but basically there are no reports no remotes at the moment which are spongy or tactile at all , so if we make it like maybe furry or soft or something , that'll be something that sets it apart ,

rather than just bare plastic which they all are at the moment.


rather than just bare plastic which they all are at the moment.


rather than just bare plastic which they all are at the moment.

So as far as the design goes , the very most important aspect was the design , to the customers. So going with the fruit and vegetable idea , we've got the bright colours , so makes it stand out , the oranges and the the bright yellows and the florescent colours , part of the fruit and vegetables um. Going back to the idea of taking inspiration from mobile phones , they've all got those  a lot of them have the changeable covers , so they can choose what colour the outside is. That's one way of looking at it um. Textured feel we just talked about. Maybe it's another way of doing that.


So as far as the design goes , the very most important aspect was the design , to the customers. So going with the fruit and vegetable idea , we've got the bright colours , so makes it stand out , the oranges and the the bright yellows and the florescent colours , part of the fruit and vegetables um. Going back to the idea of taking inspiration from mobile phones , they've all got those  a lot of them have the changeable covers , so they can choose what colour the outside is. That's one way of looking at it um. Textured feel we just talked about. Maybe it's another way of doing that.


So as far as the design goes , the very most important aspect was the design , to the customers. So going with the fruit and vegetable idea , we've got the bright colours , so makes it stand out , the oranges and the the bright yellows and the florescent colours , part of the fruit and vegetables um. Going back to the idea of taking inspiration from mobile phones , they've all got those  a lot of them have the changeable covers , so they can choose what colour the outside is. That's one way of looking at it um. Textured feel we just talked about. Maybe it's another way of doing that.

So if it's part of the the changeable covers then may maybe they can choose a different texture , a spongy one or a soft one or something like that. So they can choose it li as they want to to maybe  to fit in with their decor in their living room , or just what they like , their sports team or whatever.


So as far as the design goes , the very most important aspect was the design , to the customers. So going with the fruit and vegetable idea , we've got the bright colours , so makes it stand out , the oranges and the the bright yellows and the florescent colours , part of the fruit and vegetables um. Going back to the idea of taking inspiration from mobile phones , they've all got those  a lot of them have the changeable covers , so they can choose what colour the outside is. That's one way of looking at it um. Textured feel we just talked about. Maybe it's another way of doing that.

So if it's part of the the changeable covers then may maybe they can choose a different texture , a spongy one or a soft one or something like that. So they can choose it li as they want to to maybe  to fit in with their decor in their living room , or just what they like , their sports team or whatever.

Yeah that's a very good idea , yeah. Yeah.


So if it's part of the the changeable covers then may maybe they can choose a different texture , a spongy one or a soft one or something like that. So they can choose it li as they want to to maybe  to fit in with their decor in their living room , or just what they like , their sports team or whatever.

Yeah that's a very good idea , yeah. Yeah.

Um and yeah , still taking the inspiration from the mobile phone design so functionality , the way the mobile phones work , the way the keypad looks. Also just the way that a lot of industrial design is going into mobile phones at the moment. They're big selling items. People put a lot of thought into that so we can leverage off that , and we can start using some of their ideas. Um back to technological in in innovation , not quite as important , but still a big issue. Um we talked about having a way of finding a remote control if it's been lost , uh that's one thing we could look at. There are other aspects like L_C_D_ screens and speech recognition which weren't  I don't think , in my personal opinion , gonna be worth the extra expense and the extra effort that will go into them. I think we're better doing something basic like this


Yeah that's a very good idea , yeah. Yeah.

Um and yeah , still taking the inspiration from the mobile phone design so functionality , the way the mobile phones work , the way the keypad looks. Also just the way that a lot of industrial design is going into mobile phones at the moment. They're big selling items. People put a lot of thought into that so we can leverage off that , and we can start using some of their ideas. Um back to technological in in innovation , not quite as important , but still a big issue. Um we talked about having a way of finding a remote control if it's been lost , uh that's one thing we could look at. There are other aspects like L_C_D_ screens and speech recognition which weren't  I don't think , in my personal opinion , gonna be worth the extra expense and the extra effort that will go into them. I think we're better doing something basic like this

which is very important and very  will be a really cool feature to put in. And   use. I had no real specific ideas for this , maybe we just , the basic idea of having your core functions big and at the top maybe , by themselves ,


Um and yeah , still taking the inspiration from the mobile phone design so functionality , the way the mobile phones work , the way the keypad looks. Also just the way that a lot of industrial design is going into mobile phones at the moment. They're big selling items. People put a lot of thought into that so we can leverage off that , and we can start using some of their ideas. Um back to technological in in innovation , not quite as important , but still a big issue. Um we talked about having a way of finding a remote control if it's been lost , uh that's one thing we could look at. There are other aspects like L_C_D_ screens and speech recognition which weren't  I don't think , in my personal opinion , gonna be worth the extra expense and the extra effort that will go into them. I think we're better doing something basic like this

which is very important and very  will be a really cool feature to put in. And   use. I had no real specific ideas for this , maybe we just , the basic idea of having your core functions big and at the top maybe , by themselves ,


which is very important and very  will be a really cool feature to put in. And   use. I had no real specific ideas for this , maybe we just , the basic idea of having your core functions big and at the top maybe , by themselves ,


which is very important and very  will be a really cool feature to put in. And   use. I had no real specific ideas for this , maybe we just , the basic idea of having your core functions big and at the top maybe , by themselves ,

maybe Matthew can can give some more information on the


maybe Matthew can can give some more information on the


maybe Matthew can can give some more information on the

and then th th the finer details of buttons you don't use as much either hidden away or completely separate.


and then th th the finer details of buttons you don't use as much either hidden away or completely separate.


So does anyone have any comments or ideas on that ? I think you


So does anyone have any comments or ideas on that ? I think you

Maybe we yes well we maybe  can decide later on um  the l the the look and feel of uh I've  it was a good idea maybe to to


So does anyone have any comments or ideas on that ? I think you

Maybe we yes well we maybe  can decide later on um  the l the the look and feel of uh I've  it was a good idea maybe to to

Yes the the the there are changeable covers ,


Maybe we yes well we maybe  can decide later on um  the l the the look and feel of uh I've  it was a good idea maybe to to

Yes the the the there are changeable covers ,


Yes the the the there are changeable covers ,

but on the other hand I I don't know whether my superiors would be so glad with it because  you have to introduce a complete uh uh new l line of uh of supplies


but on the other hand I I don't know whether my superiors would be so glad with it because  you have to introduce a complete uh uh new l line of uh of supplies

uh it would be uh very complicated uh organisational


but on the other hand I I don't know whether my superiors would be so glad with it because  you have to introduce a complete uh uh new l line of uh of supplies

uh it would be uh very complicated uh organisational

Well we're selling so many units of this. This is gonna be a mass marketed product , we can afford to have two or three different designs at least.


uh it would be uh very complicated uh organisational

Well we're selling so many units of this. This is gonna be a mass marketed product , we can afford to have two or three different designs at least.


uh it would be uh very complicated uh organisational

Well we're selling so many units of this. This is gonna be a mass marketed product , we can afford to have two or three different designs at least.

Yeah a range of uh yeah , a set of three , four different aspects.


Well we're selling so many units of this. This is gonna be a mass marketed product , we can afford to have two or three different designs at least.

Yeah a range of uh yeah , a set of three , four different aspects.


Yeah a range of uh yeah , a set of three , four different aspects.


Yes  and of course it will be a we we get a  if it works we can get uh after-sales


Yes  and of course it will be a we we get a  if it works we can get uh after-sales

I mean that would  would be very good I mean those covers could go for for three , five Euro .


I mean that would  would be very good I mean those covers could go for for three , five Euro .


I mean that would  would be very good I mean those covers could go for for three , five Euro .

That's a very good idea um  And then uh maybe uh we can go a th Matthew's presentation because


That's a very good idea um  And then uh maybe uh we can go a th Matthew's presentation because


then we could discuss later like  we can put all ideas together.


because you ma might have some some information on the the easy to use ,


because when you suggest something then it has to be integrated inside.


because when you suggest something then it has to be integrated inside.

Yeah so  I'll I'll go with that actually


because when you suggest something then it has to be integrated inside.

Yeah so  I'll I'll go with that actually

so um   Okay so m so  then the the idea of uh having a remote is generally you have uh different keys and uh different structures , different forms , and uh they could be like buttons and um they could be of uh a varying sizes if you want to to uh basically emphasize a particular key more than the other , and uh maybe like you can have different colours for example having the r red for the on off switching on and off the button. So this this is the general trend to ha the method they do.


Yeah so  I'll I'll go with that actually

so um   Okay so m so  then the the idea of uh having a remote is generally you have uh different keys and uh different structures , different forms , and uh they could be like buttons and um they could be of uh a varying sizes if you want to to uh basically emphasize a particular key more than the other , and uh maybe like you can have different colours for example having the r red for the on off switching on and off the button. So this this is the general trend to ha the method they do.


so um   Okay so m so  then the the idea of uh having a remote is generally you have uh different keys and uh different structures , different forms , and uh they could be like buttons and um they could be of uh a varying sizes if you want to to uh basically emphasize a particular key more than the other , and uh maybe like you can have different colours for example having the r red for the on off switching on and off the button. So this this is the general trend to ha the method they do.


so um   Okay so m so  then the the idea of uh having a remote is generally you have uh different keys and uh different structures , different forms , and uh they could be like buttons and um they could be of uh a varying sizes if you want to to uh basically emphasize a particular key more than the other , and uh maybe like you can have different colours for example having the r red for the on off switching on and off the button. So this this is the general trend to ha the method they do.

So what I have found was that uh currently uh the  they are mostly that the T_V_ , V_C_R_ , music system operated ones actually , and they are very specific to each other , but there are some common keys for example if you want to follow the V_C_R_ and if you want to follow the uh g uh s some uh soundtrack on the w w see they have the common thing actually you can have


So what I have found was that uh currently uh the  they are mostly that the T_V_ , V_C_R_ , music system operated ones actually , and they are very specific to each other , but there are some common keys for example if you want to follow the V_C_R_ and if you want to follow the uh g uh s some uh soundtrack on the w w see they have the common thing actually you can have


So what I have found was that uh currently uh the  they are mostly that the T_V_ , V_C_R_ , music system operated ones actually , and they are very specific to each other , but there are some common keys for example if you want to follow the V_C_R_ and if you want to follow the uh g uh s some uh soundtrack on the w w see they have the common thing actually you can have

and uh   There is also um a speech recognition to store channel information , names , like  You can basically  if you have a multiple functionality , say T_V_ , V_C_R_ or something I say it to the T_V_ and the  T_V_ , and you can programme the keys if you want to , certain keys are even the channel information .


So what I have found was that uh currently uh the  they are mostly that the T_V_ , V_C_R_ , music system operated ones actually , and they are very specific to each other , but there are some common keys for example if you want to follow the V_C_R_ and if you want to follow the uh g uh s some uh soundtrack on the w w see they have the common thing actually you can have

and uh   There is also um a speech recognition to store channel information , names , like  You can basically  if you have a multiple functionality , say T_V_ , V_C_R_ or something I say it to the T_V_ and the  T_V_ , and you can programme the keys if you want to , certain keys are even the channel information .

Mm. Mm. I like the idea though of having speech recognition for like the n the name of a channel like B_B_C_ , rather than having to remember the the number of it on the keypad. That's a good idea.


and uh   There is also um a speech recognition to store channel information , names , like  You can basically  if you have a multiple functionality , say T_V_ , V_C_R_ or something I say it to the T_V_ and the  T_V_ , and you can programme the keys if you want to , certain keys are even the channel information .

Mm. Mm. I like the idea though of having speech recognition for like the n the name of a channel like B_B_C_ , rather than having to remember the the number of it on the keypad. That's a good idea.

Yeah yeah so you you you can just uh because uh as more and more channels come then you have more and more problems to remember the v v exact channel numbers ex exactly ,


Mm. Mm. I like the idea though of having speech recognition for like the n the name of a channel like B_B_C_ , rather than having to remember the the number of it on the keypad. That's a good idea.

Yeah yeah so you you you can just uh because uh as more and more channels come then you have more and more problems to remember the v v exact channel numbers ex exactly ,


Yeah yeah so you you you can just uh because uh as more and more channels come then you have more and more problems to remember the v v exact channel numbers ex exactly ,

even if you arrange it by  however you arrange it , you still have the problem to remember exactly which channel you want to


even if you arrange it by  however you arrange it , you still have the problem to remember exactly which channel you want to


even if you arrange it by  however you arrange it , you still have the problem to remember exactly which channel you want to

So what functionalities do you suggest for that ? For facing this problem ?


even if you arrange it by  however you arrange it , you still have the problem to remember exactly which channel you want to

So what functionalities do you suggest for that ? For facing this problem ?

So it it it's like it  limited one. In the present market I saw it that says something like they are looking for  eighty word thing , eighty word ,


So what functionalities do you suggest for that ? For facing this problem ?

So it it it's like it  limited one. In the present market I saw it that says something like they are looking for  eighty word thing , eighty word ,


So what functionalities do you suggest for that ? For facing this problem ?

So it it it's like it  limited one. In the present market I saw it that says something like they are looking for  eighty word thing , eighty word ,

which shouldn't be th that difficult to implement , like eighty to hundred word. Basically you want you don't want to store all the channels in the remote control ,


So it it it's like it  limited one. In the present market I saw it that says something like they are looking for  eighty word thing , eighty word ,

which shouldn't be th that difficult to implement , like eighty to hundred word. Basically you want you don't want to store all the channels in the remote control ,


which shouldn't be th that difficult to implement , like eighty to hundred word. Basically you want you don't want to store all the channels in the remote control ,

you want to st store your favourite channel.


you want to st store your favourite channel.

Yeah some ten twelve channel information. You know you don't want to st store all the hundred channel information into that.


Yeah some ten twelve channel information. You know you don't want to st store all the hundred channel information into that.


Yeah some ten twelve channel information. You know you don't want to st store all the hundred channel information into that.

And uh basically uh it depends like the remote with L_C_D_ display for browsing because you have multiple functionalities for example you are watching a movie , and uh uh you are  having a universal remote control and you want to uh you don't know really which functionality is  now , so I am using the T_V_ so every time I use it , it could be like , for example I can use a simple toggle switch , and a display , so I press it so the display says , okay , I'm in T_V_ or D_V_D_ or whatever it is , instead of having three keys separately for four keys ,


And uh basically uh it depends like the remote with L_C_D_ display for browsing because you have multiple functionalities for example you are watching a movie , and uh uh you are  having a universal remote control and you want to uh you don't know really which functionality is  now , so I am using the T_V_ so every time I use it , it could be like , for example I can use a simple toggle switch , and a display , so I press it so the display says , okay , I'm in T_V_ or D_V_D_ or whatever it is , instead of having three keys separately for four keys ,


And uh basically uh it depends like the remote with L_C_D_ display for browsing because you have multiple functionalities for example you are watching a movie , and uh uh you are  having a universal remote control and you want to uh you don't know really which functionality is  now , so I am using the T_V_ so every time I use it , it could be like , for example I can use a simple toggle switch , and a display , so I press it so the display says , okay , I'm in T_V_ or D_V_D_ or whatever it is , instead of having three keys separately for four keys ,

to model the functionalities will increase actually ,


to model the functionalities will increase actually ,


you don't want separate keys for all of them. You can't. And uh well there can be children friendly where you can programme your remote so that they they are not allowed uh to browse certain channels which you can block them , and you can operate them. So these are the things presently which are seen in the market scenarios at present.


you don't want separate keys for all of them. You can't. And uh well there can be children friendly where you can programme your remote so that they they are not allowed uh to browse certain channels which you can block them , and you can operate them. So these are the things presently which are seen in the market scenarios at present.

I personally would look at  things like having a u universal remote , is uh um is a good idea , like instead of having  unusual ones for all of them you can think of having , um with multiple functionality possibly with speech recognition.


I personally would look at  things like having a u universal remote , is uh um is a good idea , like instead of having  unusual ones for all of them you can think of having , um with multiple functionality possibly with speech recognition.

I got a mail from the the coffee machine interface unit that uh they have uh integrated the s speech recognition into a into the coffee machine ,


I got a mail from the the coffee machine interface unit that uh they have uh integrated the s speech recognition into a into the coffee machine ,

and so if you say hello coffee machine , it say hi Joe , or something like that , you know , and uh


I got a mail from the the coffee machine interface unit that uh they have uh integrated the s speech recognition into a into the coffee machine ,

and so if you say hello coffee machine , it say hi Joe , or something like that , you know , and uh

But a coffee machine , there's not too many words they'd be using with that it's a it's a small vocabulary.


and so if you say hello coffee machine , it say hi Joe , or something like that , you know , and uh

But a coffee machine , there's not too many words they'd be using with that it's a it's a small vocabulary.

Yeah you you won't be using it , so it's a limited vocabulary mm thing , and very isolated word


But a coffee machine , there's not too many words they'd be using with that it's a it's a small vocabulary.

Yeah you you won't be using it , so it's a limited vocabulary mm thing , and very isolated word

and it's uh it is interesting , and basically storing the channel through voice or other ways of programming your keys , on the display for the browsing


Yeah you you won't be using it , so it's a limited vocabulary mm thing , and very isolated word

and it's uh it is interesting , and basically storing the channel through voice or other ways of programming your keys , on the display for the browsing


and it's uh it is interesting , and basically storing the channel through voice or other ways of programming your keys , on the display for the browsing

which is again  and maybe having something like a blinking thing , like uh it could indicate you're uh  it it could indicate what is cal like the uh whether uh you you have enough battery in your in your uh remote , the blinking.


which is again  and maybe having something like a blinking thing , like uh it could indicate you're uh  it it could indicate what is cal like the uh whether uh you you have enough battery in your in your uh remote , the blinking.


which is again  and maybe having something like a blinking thing , like uh it could indicate you're uh  it it could indicate what is cal like the uh whether uh you you have enough battery in your in your uh remote , the blinking.

At the same time , if it's a dark room , it can be used to locate the remote also


At the same time , if it's a dark room , it can be used to locate the remote also


At the same time , if it's a dark room , it can be used to locate the remote also

And you want okay  for coming back to one point


And you want okay  for coming back to one point

y you want to let the user to programming the keys ? Some of them ?


y you want to let the user to programming the keys ? Some of them ?

And uh isn't that too difficult for the  we want w I don't know if we still want the um R_C_ to be easy to use ,


And uh isn't that too difficult for the  we want w I don't know if we still want the um R_C_ to be easy to use ,


And uh isn't that too difficult for the  we want w I don't know if we still want the um R_C_ to be easy to use ,

N no but the  if you give  it d depends on the easiness like the user how much effort he can put.


N no but the  if you give  it d depends on the easiness like the user how much effort he can put.


N no but the  if you give  it d depends on the easiness like the user how much effort he can put.

Like for example uh I would like to store in certain way , so if you want to give the full freedom to the user


Like for example uh I would like to store in certain way , so if you want to give the full freedom to the user


Like for example uh I would like to store in certain way , so if you want to give the full freedom to the user

or you want to keep some constraints and let the user use it with that constraint.


or you want to keep some constraints and let the user use it with that constraint.

Yeah. Mm. I think you can do it both ways.


Yeah. Mm. I think you can do it both ways.


Yeah. Mm. I think you can do it both ways.

You can have it so it's easy  they can pick it up and use it straight away without doing anythi without customizing it ,


You can have it so it's easy  they can pick it up and use it straight away without doing anythi without customizing it ,


You can have it so it's easy  they can pick it up and use it straight away without doing anythi without customizing it ,

or if they want to they have the option of using these extra features.


or if they want to they have the option of using these extra features.


maybe you can  give a hand to us because I I'm not sure whether that that we can implement that for twelve Euro and fifty cents.


maybe you can  give a hand to us because I I'm not sure whether that that we can implement that for twelve Euro and fifty cents.

I'm sorry to have   Every time I have to come down on this price again


I'm sorry to have   Every time I have to come down on this price again


I'm sorry to have   Every time I have to come down on this price again

to  so this might be a little limiting for your creativity ,


to  so this might be a little limiting for your creativity ,

but it's it's it's the real   We have to consider it. S so


but it's it's it's the real   We have to consider it. S so

do we think these ideas  an and my uh sp speech recognition , I mean maybe it's possible for for twelve Euro but then then it will be at cost of other functionality we might implement like the uh uh the the the furry uh  uh case of the


do we think these ideas  an and my uh sp speech recognition , I mean maybe it's possible for for twelve Euro but then then it will be at cost of other functionality we might implement like the uh uh the the the furry uh  uh case of the

Mm-hmm yeah like  I would say that for programming uh keys , you said , uh it could be uh easily uh done within the the package of twel twelve Euros ,


Mm-hmm yeah like  I would say that for programming uh keys , you said , uh it could be uh easily uh done within the the package of twel twelve Euros ,


but for the A_S_R_ system , uh I'm not sure if it's feasible to have this


but for the A_S_R_ system , uh I'm not sure if it's feasible to have this

We well we can still look at  we can talk with the coffee unit


but for the A_S_R_ system , uh I'm not sure if it's feasible to have this

We well we can still look at  we can talk with the coffee unit

and you can uh check how much how much they


We well we can still look at  we can talk with the coffee unit

and you can uh check how much how much they

Exactly yeah i if if it's a low vocabulary it's already implemented ,


and you can uh check how much how much they

Exactly yeah i if if it's a low vocabulary it's already implemented ,


Exactly yeah i if if it's a low vocabulary it's already implemented ,


and w how much it's cost , maybe with a f cheap chip.


and w how much it's cost , maybe with a f cheap chip.

Maybe we can come  we we can talk to them , and we can come with that ,


Maybe we can come  we we can talk to them , and we can come with that ,


Good morning. Sorry ? Yeah , busy job. Good morning. So  Oh , good morning everyone.


I'd uh like to welcome you to our first meeting. I've prepared a little presentation. My name is  and uh I hope you will introduce yourself uh in a few minutes , as will I. Um I'm the Project Manager of this project , and uh , well I will tell you  on what actually is the project. This is uh the agenda for our first meeting. Um this is the opening , then we will get   I will hope we will get acquainted to each other. We'll do a little tool training with these two things. We'll take a look at the project plan. Uh there will be time for discussion. Actually we have to discuss because we have to create a product. And then we will close this session. Um but first of all we I'd like to uh introduce you to this room. Um as you probably have noticed there are little black uh fields on the table. Um you have to put your laptop exactly in that field so the little cameras can see your face. Um there are cameras


I'd uh like to welcome you to our first meeting. I've prepared a little presentation. My name is  and uh I hope you will introduce yourself uh in a few minutes , as will I. Um I'm the Project Manager of this project , and uh , well I will tell you  on what actually is the project. This is uh the agenda for our first meeting. Um this is the opening , then we will get   I will hope we will get acquainted to each other. We'll do a little tool training with these two things. We'll take a look at the project plan. Uh there will be time for discussion. Actually we have to discuss because we have to create a product. And then we will close this session. Um but first of all we I'd like to uh introduce you to this room. Um as you probably have noticed there are little black uh fields on the table. Um you have to put your laptop exactly in that field so the little cameras can see your face. Um there are cameras

everywhere around the room especially here for your face , of course , and this isn't a pie , it's a a set of microphones


I'd uh like to welcome you to our first meeting. I've prepared a little presentation. My name is  and uh I hope you will introduce yourself uh in a few minutes , as will I. Um I'm the Project Manager of this project , and uh , well I will tell you  on what actually is the project. This is uh the agenda for our first meeting. Um this is the opening , then we will get   I will hope we will get acquainted to each other. We'll do a little tool training with these two things. We'll take a look at the project plan. Uh there will be time for discussion. Actually we have to discuss because we have to create a product. And then we will close this session. Um but first of all we I'd like to uh introduce you to this room. Um as you probably have noticed there are little black uh fields on the table. Um you have to put your laptop exactly in that field so the little cameras can see your face. Um there are cameras

everywhere around the room especially here for your face , of course , and this isn't a pie , it's a a set of microphones

and there are microphones here also. But please uh don't be afraid of them.


everywhere around the room especially here for your face , of course , and this isn't a pie , it's a a set of microphones

and there are microphones here also. But please uh don't be afraid of them.


and there are microphones here also. But please uh don't be afraid of them.

I said I'm the Project Manager and uh I'm hoping uh for a good project and uh I'd like to hear uh who you are and what your functions are uh on this project. Let's start with the ladies  .


I said I'm the Project Manager and uh I'm hoping uh for a good project and uh I'd like to hear uh who you are and what your functions are uh on this project. Let's start with the ladies  .

Well uh I'm uh  and my uh function is User Interface Design , I think.