We've forced—. No, sorry, 'forced' is not the word. [Laughter.] We have encouraged and persuaded everybody to do it.

So, that will be four A-levels plus bac.

I've got to be honest, at present, with our college, we do not ask. It's compulsory for A-level students to do the Welsh bac. It's an option of one of our choices—we have a large choice—and I think it comes back to that fact that we're just making the assumption all learners are getting all the correct advice and guidance from all the institutions. I think it's something we all need to consider across the nation, that all learners are getting the right advice and guidance for their future. I will go back to the point I made earlier—everything's comparable as long as it's the right thing for the learner's future, and I genuinely believe, and I'm sure a lot of colleagues believe, that that choice element is important to a learner, okay. If it is the right choice and if the Welsh bac is the right choice, that is correct, and we move that along. Obviously, we debated about where there are elements that need to change. But you've got to be doing the right things for the learner, and we are certainly not selling it, 'Come to us; you don't do the Welsh bac.' It is part of what we offer. It is part of what the college's curriculum offers—there is no doubt about that—and then people make a choice according to what they need to do to actually progress to what they need to do in their future.


So, that will be four A-levels plus bac.

I've got to be honest, at present, with our college, we do not ask. It's compulsory for A-level students to do the Welsh bac. It's an option of one of our choices—we have a large choice—and I think it comes back to that fact that we're just making the assumption all learners are getting all the correct advice and guidance from all the institutions. I think it's something we all need to consider across the nation, that all learners are getting the right advice and guidance for their future. I will go back to the point I made earlier—everything's comparable as long as it's the right thing for the learner's future, and I genuinely believe, and I'm sure a lot of colleagues believe, that that choice element is important to a learner, okay. If it is the right choice and if the Welsh bac is the right choice, that is correct, and we move that along. Obviously, we debated about where there are elements that need to change. But you've got to be doing the right things for the learner, and we are certainly not selling it, 'Come to us; you don't do the Welsh bac.' It is part of what we offer. It is part of what the college's curriculum offers—there is no doubt about that—and then people make a choice according to what they need to do to actually progress to what they need to do in their future.

Okay, thank you. I've just got one question for Mr Ed Evans, if that's okay. You explained earlier that if people knew what the bac was about in your sector, they'd value it more greatly, which I accept. Are you worried at all, though, that some of the more able and talented STEM students, in particular—who are needed in your sector, after all—might be deterred from doing those four A-levels because of the bac, because, presumably, you need a mix of these talents? You talked about the more able and talented vocational learners, but also you have more able and talented academic learners—presumably you need them all.


I've got to be honest, at present, with our college, we do not ask. It's compulsory for A-level students to do the Welsh bac. It's an option of one of our choices—we have a large choice—and I think it comes back to that fact that we're just making the assumption all learners are getting all the correct advice and guidance from all the institutions. I think it's something we all need to consider across the nation, that all learners are getting the right advice and guidance for their future. I will go back to the point I made earlier—everything's comparable as long as it's the right thing for the learner's future, and I genuinely believe, and I'm sure a lot of colleagues believe, that that choice element is important to a learner, okay. If it is the right choice and if the Welsh bac is the right choice, that is correct, and we move that along. Obviously, we debated about where there are elements that need to change. But you've got to be doing the right things for the learner, and we are certainly not selling it, 'Come to us; you don't do the Welsh bac.' It is part of what we offer. It is part of what the college's curriculum offers—there is no doubt about that—and then people make a choice according to what they need to do to actually progress to what they need to do in their future.

Okay, thank you. I've just got one question for Mr Ed Evans, if that's okay. You explained earlier that if people knew what the bac was about in your sector, they'd value it more greatly, which I accept. Are you worried at all, though, that some of the more able and talented STEM students, in particular—who are needed in your sector, after all—might be deterred from doing those four A-levels because of the bac, because, presumably, you need a mix of these talents? You talked about the more able and talented vocational learners, but also you have more able and talented academic learners—presumably you need them all.

We do. There's a big range, and some really high achievers coming into the sector as well. So, it is about that mix. I think the discussion that I've had with our employers has been around the academic side of things, if you like. The qualifications are well catered for. So, it's almost a given somebody's been through that route. What isn't there is some of those softer skills, but also some—. I was almost going to call commercial skills 'soft' there—.


Okay, thank you. I've just got one question for Mr Ed Evans, if that's okay. You explained earlier that if people knew what the bac was about in your sector, they'd value it more greatly, which I accept. Are you worried at all, though, that some of the more able and talented STEM students, in particular—who are needed in your sector, after all—might be deterred from doing those four A-levels because of the bac, because, presumably, you need a mix of these talents? You talked about the more able and talented vocational learners, but also you have more able and talented academic learners—presumably you need them all.

We do. There's a big range, and some really high achievers coming into the sector as well. So, it is about that mix. I think the discussion that I've had with our employers has been around the academic side of things, if you like. The qualifications are well catered for. So, it's almost a given somebody's been through that route. What isn't there is some of those softer skills, but also some—. I was almost going to call commercial skills 'soft' there—.

Commercial skills are hard skills, which are very, very difficult to come by. So, the Welsh bac starts to do some of those things at different levels. Again, I'll come back to the input of businesses to support that delivery of commercial skills and so on, but I think I probably made that point earlier. So, I don't think it is a case of squeezing things out. There's clearly going to be different individuals who will cope better, and they will be, I guess, maybe guided as well by parents to a certain degree in terms of, 'You do those four and forget about that nonsense there', which is not helpful, but I can understand why that happens. So, for me, now, it's not a case of squeezing—. This should be seen as an important part of creating a rounded individual ready for employment. I guess that's what a lot of our employers saw the Welsh bac as being able to do. Whether that's a shared view is another matter.


We do. There's a big range, and some really high achievers coming into the sector as well. So, it is about that mix. I think the discussion that I've had with our employers has been around the academic side of things, if you like. The qualifications are well catered for. So, it's almost a given somebody's been through that route. What isn't there is some of those softer skills, but also some—. I was almost going to call commercial skills 'soft' there—.

Commercial skills are hard skills, which are very, very difficult to come by. So, the Welsh bac starts to do some of those things at different levels. Again, I'll come back to the input of businesses to support that delivery of commercial skills and so on, but I think I probably made that point earlier. So, I don't think it is a case of squeezing things out. There's clearly going to be different individuals who will cope better, and they will be, I guess, maybe guided as well by parents to a certain degree in terms of, 'You do those four and forget about that nonsense there', which is not helpful, but I can understand why that happens. So, for me, now, it's not a case of squeezing—. This should be seen as an important part of creating a rounded individual ready for employment. I guess that's what a lot of our employers saw the Welsh bac as being able to do. Whether that's a shared view is another matter.


Commercial skills are hard skills, which are very, very difficult to come by. So, the Welsh bac starts to do some of those things at different levels. Again, I'll come back to the input of businesses to support that delivery of commercial skills and so on, but I think I probably made that point earlier. So, I don't think it is a case of squeezing things out. There's clearly going to be different individuals who will cope better, and they will be, I guess, maybe guided as well by parents to a certain degree in terms of, 'You do those four and forget about that nonsense there', which is not helpful, but I can understand why that happens. So, for me, now, it's not a case of squeezing—. This should be seen as an important part of creating a rounded individual ready for employment. I guess that's what a lot of our employers saw the Welsh bac as being able to do. Whether that's a shared view is another matter.

Can I just add something to that? I think Ed's just said about the softer skills. Do the softer skills have to be developed through qualification? I think Kay mentioned a programme earlier on within her college. We run programmes as well. They're not qualifications, but they offer the opportunity to develop those softer skills. So, I think we're all in agreement about the development of the skills, but does it need to be through a qualification?


Commercial skills are hard skills, which are very, very difficult to come by. So, the Welsh bac starts to do some of those things at different levels. Again, I'll come back to the input of businesses to support that delivery of commercial skills and so on, but I think I probably made that point earlier. So, I don't think it is a case of squeezing things out. There's clearly going to be different individuals who will cope better, and they will be, I guess, maybe guided as well by parents to a certain degree in terms of, 'You do those four and forget about that nonsense there', which is not helpful, but I can understand why that happens. So, for me, now, it's not a case of squeezing—. This should be seen as an important part of creating a rounded individual ready for employment. I guess that's what a lot of our employers saw the Welsh bac as being able to do. Whether that's a shared view is another matter.

Can I just add something to that? I think Ed's just said about the softer skills. Do the softer skills have to be developed through qualification? I think Kay mentioned a programme earlier on within her college. We run programmes as well. They're not qualifications, but they offer the opportunity to develop those softer skills. So, I think we're all in agreement about the development of the skills, but does it need to be through a qualification?

And you've said that you make the decision in the best interests of the learner. Are you aware, then, of any young people who are coming to you from the Swansea area because they've got that flexibility, which they may not have in one of the local schools?


Can I just add something to that? I think Ed's just said about the softer skills. Do the softer skills have to be developed through qualification? I think Kay mentioned a programme earlier on within her college. We run programmes as well. They're not qualifications, but they offer the opportunity to develop those softer skills. So, I think we're all in agreement about the development of the skills, but does it need to be through a qualification?

And you've said that you make the decision in the best interests of the learner. Are you aware, then, of any young people who are coming to you from the Swansea area because they've got that flexibility, which they may not have in one of the local schools?

As I said, in terms of our offer, we offer a range in the curriculum. We're not going out there saying, 'Come to us for this particular reason.'


Can I just add something to that? I think Ed's just said about the softer skills. Do the softer skills have to be developed through qualification? I think Kay mentioned a programme earlier on within her college. We run programmes as well. They're not qualifications, but they offer the opportunity to develop those softer skills. So, I think we're all in agreement about the development of the skills, but does it need to be through a qualification?

And you've said that you make the decision in the best interests of the learner. Are you aware, then, of any young people who are coming to you from the Swansea area because they've got that flexibility, which they may not have in one of the local schools?

As I said, in terms of our offer, we offer a range in the curriculum. We're not going out there saying, 'Come to us for this particular reason.'

No, but does anybody come to you and say, 'Well, actually, I've really come here because I don't have to do the Welsh bac'?


And you've said that you make the decision in the best interests of the learner. Are you aware, then, of any young people who are coming to you from the Swansea area because they've got that flexibility, which they may not have in one of the local schools?

As I said, in terms of our offer, we offer a range in the curriculum. We're not going out there saying, 'Come to us for this particular reason.'

No, but does anybody come to you and say, 'Well, actually, I've really come here because I don't have to do the Welsh bac'?

The honest answer is it's one of the first questions that people always ask. But, as I've said, as a parent, I've been to open evenings and other open evenings. It's generally a question that people ask, 'Do I have to do the Welsh bac?' It does come across not just in our open evenings, but in other open evenings that I've been to. It is always a question that people ask me. They do want to know that, and it's usually, as I said, one of the first questions that they ask.


As I said, in terms of our offer, we offer a range in the curriculum. We're not going out there saying, 'Come to us for this particular reason.'

No, but does anybody come to you and say, 'Well, actually, I've really come here because I don't have to do the Welsh bac'?

The honest answer is it's one of the first questions that people always ask. But, as I've said, as a parent, I've been to open evenings and other open evenings. It's generally a question that people ask, 'Do I have to do the Welsh bac?' It does come across not just in our open evenings, but in other open evenings that I've been to. It is always a question that people ask me. They do want to know that, and it's usually, as I said, one of the first questions that they ask.

And is that the parents asking the question or the pupil?


No, but does anybody come to you and say, 'Well, actually, I've really come here because I don't have to do the Welsh bac'?

The honest answer is it's one of the first questions that people always ask. But, as I've said, as a parent, I've been to open evenings and other open evenings. It's generally a question that people ask, 'Do I have to do the Welsh bac?' It does come across not just in our open evenings, but in other open evenings that I've been to. It is always a question that people ask me. They do want to know that, and it's usually, as I said, one of the first questions that they ask.

And is that the parents asking the question or the pupil?

It's a combination. But, honest answer, I would say parents, a lot of the time, but the learners usually—as I said—have sometimes had not the best experience pre 16 and that's why they ask the question straight away.


The honest answer is it's one of the first questions that people always ask. But, as I've said, as a parent, I've been to open evenings and other open evenings. It's generally a question that people ask, 'Do I have to do the Welsh bac?' It does come across not just in our open evenings, but in other open evenings that I've been to. It is always a question that people ask me. They do want to know that, and it's usually, as I said, one of the first questions that they ask.

And is that the parents asking the question or the pupil?

It's a combination. But, honest answer, I would say parents, a lot of the time, but the learners usually—as I said—have sometimes had not the best experience pre 16 and that's why they ask the question straight away.

Can I suggest that maybe, then, the perception that parents have is steering the way rather than the actual benefits for the pupil in your institution? If you're telling them, 'Come to us, you don't have to actually do it because we know you don't like it', is that the correct way of approaching education?


And is that the parents asking the question or the pupil?

It's a combination. But, honest answer, I would say parents, a lot of the time, but the learners usually—as I said—have sometimes had not the best experience pre 16 and that's why they ask the question straight away.

Can I suggest that maybe, then, the perception that parents have is steering the way rather than the actual benefits for the pupil in your institution? If you're telling them, 'Come to us, you don't have to actually do it because we know you don't like it', is that the correct way of approaching education?

No. Education is about offering the range and offering it correctly.


It's a combination. But, honest answer, I would say parents, a lot of the time, but the learners usually—as I said—have sometimes had not the best experience pre 16 and that's why they ask the question straight away.

Can I suggest that maybe, then, the perception that parents have is steering the way rather than the actual benefits for the pupil in your institution? If you're telling them, 'Come to us, you don't have to actually do it because we know you don't like it', is that the correct way of approaching education?

No. Education is about offering the range and offering it correctly.


Can I suggest that maybe, then, the perception that parents have is steering the way rather than the actual benefits for the pupil in your institution? If you're telling them, 'Come to us, you don't have to actually do it because we know you don't like it', is that the correct way of approaching education?

No. Education is about offering the range and offering it correctly.

Yes, I know, I totally understand, but it's about offering the full range of qualification opportunities for learners. If you don't offer the full range, which, sometimes—if you, obviously, limit and you make qualifications compulsory, that can limit the choice of opportunities as well. So, I think what parents and learners are looking for is for the range of options. There are some places in, I would think, some sixth forms now, where certain qualifications may not be offered now because of the need to pick up an extra—Welsh bac. So, for example, modern foreign languages is reducing quite dramatically in Wales, and, I think, I picked up today a few schools had been saying that one of the reasons is, 'We have to put our focus on the Welsh bac to ensure that is achieved rather than giving the opportunity to do the modern foreign language.'


No. Education is about offering the range and offering it correctly.

Yes, I know, I totally understand, but it's about offering the full range of qualification opportunities for learners. If you don't offer the full range, which, sometimes—if you, obviously, limit and you make qualifications compulsory, that can limit the choice of opportunities as well. So, I think what parents and learners are looking for is for the range of options. There are some places in, I would think, some sixth forms now, where certain qualifications may not be offered now because of the need to pick up an extra—Welsh bac. So, for example, modern foreign languages is reducing quite dramatically in Wales, and, I think, I picked up today a few schools had been saying that one of the reasons is, 'We have to put our focus on the Welsh bac to ensure that is achieved rather than giving the opportunity to do the modern foreign language.'

But it could be a short-sighted view because what some young people tell us is that at the time—and parents—they didn't really appreciate what skills they were actually learning, and by the time they'd got into employment, that working as a team, the communication skills, they thought, 'Ah, we did—. I know what this is about', and it all makes sense at that point. So, to try and, sort of, discourage it at a younger age may be doing them a disservice in the long run.


Yes, I know, I totally understand, but it's about offering the full range of qualification opportunities for learners. If you don't offer the full range, which, sometimes—if you, obviously, limit and you make qualifications compulsory, that can limit the choice of opportunities as well. So, I think what parents and learners are looking for is for the range of options. There are some places in, I would think, some sixth forms now, where certain qualifications may not be offered now because of the need to pick up an extra—Welsh bac. So, for example, modern foreign languages is reducing quite dramatically in Wales, and, I think, I picked up today a few schools had been saying that one of the reasons is, 'We have to put our focus on the Welsh bac to ensure that is achieved rather than giving the opportunity to do the modern foreign language.'

But it could be a short-sighted view because what some young people tell us is that at the time—and parents—they didn't really appreciate what skills they were actually learning, and by the time they'd got into employment, that working as a team, the communication skills, they thought, 'Ah, we did—. I know what this is about', and it all makes sense at that point. So, to try and, sort of, discourage it at a younger age may be doing them a disservice in the long run.


But it could be a short-sighted view because what some young people tell us is that at the time—and parents—they didn't really appreciate what skills they were actually learning, and by the time they'd got into employment, that working as a team, the communication skills, they thought, 'Ah, we did—. I know what this is about', and it all makes sense at that point. So, to try and, sort of, discourage it at a younger age may be doing them a disservice in the long run.

You do want an answer. Anybody want to pick that up?


You do want an answer. Anybody want to pick that up?

We certainly have experience of that, of young people coming in with quite a negative attitude, originally, to the Welsh bac and taking it on board. But where we are delivering it well, well contextualised, they've really enjoyed the experience, and very much valued the experience. So, yes, there are certainly instances of that happening, there's no doubt.


You do want an answer. Anybody want to pick that up?

We certainly have experience of that, of young people coming in with quite a negative attitude, originally, to the Welsh bac and taking it on board. But where we are delivering it well, well contextualised, they've really enjoyed the experience, and very much valued the experience. So, yes, there are certainly instances of that happening, there's no doubt.

We certainly see it, as employers. The penny drops after a few weeks or months.


You do want an answer. Anybody want to pick that up?

We certainly have experience of that, of young people coming in with quite a negative attitude, originally, to the Welsh bac and taking it on board. But where we are delivering it well, well contextualised, they've really enjoyed the experience, and very much valued the experience. So, yes, there are certainly instances of that happening, there's no doubt.

We certainly see it, as employers. The penny drops after a few weeks or months.

But don't underestimate the fact that if you had a poor experience of the Welsh bac at school, that perception is very difficult for us, as institutions, then, to change. Very difficult.


We certainly have experience of that, of young people coming in with quite a negative attitude, originally, to the Welsh bac and taking it on board. But where we are delivering it well, well contextualised, they've really enjoyed the experience, and very much valued the experience. So, yes, there are certainly instances of that happening, there's no doubt.

We certainly see it, as employers. The penny drops after a few weeks or months.

But don't underestimate the fact that if you had a poor experience of the Welsh bac at school, that perception is very difficult for us, as institutions, then, to change. Very difficult.

It does make it into quite an intensive selling process for colleges when they've got to overcome that negative perception. As people have said already, it is possible to talk parents and learners round, but then that's time spent having to do that selling job when we should be talking about other things.


We certainly see it, as employers. The penny drops after a few weeks or months.

But don't underestimate the fact that if you had a poor experience of the Welsh bac at school, that perception is very difficult for us, as institutions, then, to change. Very difficult.

It does make it into quite an intensive selling process for colleges when they've got to overcome that negative perception. As people have said already, it is possible to talk parents and learners round, but then that's time spent having to do that selling job when we should be talking about other things.

Can I just mention as well that there's a bigger job in helping parents to understand that the only qualifications in the world are not A-levels? Perhaps you might want to do an engineering BTEC programme, or you might want to do a health and social care, or you might want to do hospitality. You might want to do BTEC programmes, you can still go to university if that's what you want to do, or you can go into an apprenticeship afterwards, and selling that whole range to parents, because there is an overemphasis, by us all, on A-levels—.


But don't underestimate the fact that if you had a poor experience of the Welsh bac at school, that perception is very difficult for us, as institutions, then, to change. Very difficult.

It does make it into quite an intensive selling process for colleges when they've got to overcome that negative perception. As people have said already, it is possible to talk parents and learners round, but then that's time spent having to do that selling job when we should be talking about other things.

Can I just mention as well that there's a bigger job in helping parents to understand that the only qualifications in the world are not A-levels? Perhaps you might want to do an engineering BTEC programme, or you might want to do a health and social care, or you might want to do hospitality. You might want to do BTEC programmes, you can still go to university if that's what you want to do, or you can go into an apprenticeship afterwards, and selling that whole range to parents, because there is an overemphasis, by us all, on A-levels—.

Thank you. We've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden.


It does make it into quite an intensive selling process for colleges when they've got to overcome that negative perception. As people have said already, it is possible to talk parents and learners round, but then that's time spent having to do that selling job when we should be talking about other things.

Can I just mention as well that there's a bigger job in helping parents to understand that the only qualifications in the world are not A-levels? Perhaps you might want to do an engineering BTEC programme, or you might want to do a health and social care, or you might want to do hospitality. You might want to do BTEC programmes, you can still go to university if that's what you want to do, or you can go into an apprenticeship afterwards, and selling that whole range to parents, because there is an overemphasis, by us all, on A-levels—.

Thank you. We've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden.

Thank you, Chair. A lot of this has been covered, actually, but just on those final points there, I'm wondering whether you think that introducing a specialist teacher-training qualification to deliver the Welsh bac would actually help in some way in improving its status and perception and so on. What do you think about that?


Can I just mention as well that there's a bigger job in helping parents to understand that the only qualifications in the world are not A-levels? Perhaps you might want to do an engineering BTEC programme, or you might want to do a health and social care, or you might want to do hospitality. You might want to do BTEC programmes, you can still go to university if that's what you want to do, or you can go into an apprenticeship afterwards, and selling that whole range to parents, because there is an overemphasis, by us all, on A-levels—.

Thank you. We've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden.

Thank you, Chair. A lot of this has been covered, actually, but just on those final points there, I'm wondering whether you think that introducing a specialist teacher-training qualification to deliver the Welsh bac would actually help in some way in improving its status and perception and so on. What do you think about that?

I'm not assured in terms of—yes, training is required regarding the Welsh bac, but where we are seeing it more successfully is where vocational lecturers have actually taken it on board. When we were bringing lecturers from outside—'Welsh bac specialists' in inverted commas—it was not working well. It has started to work well when our sports lecturers have taken the Welsh bac on board and have put it in the context of the sports curriculum. Therefore, no, I think that if it's going to be a success, it's got to be contextualised, and for the vocational lecturers to do that, and we've invested heavily in training those vocational lecturers to understand how to deliver the Welsh bac and get positive outcomes of the Welsh bac—. It's been an intensive staff development process.


Thank you. We've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden.

Thank you, Chair. A lot of this has been covered, actually, but just on those final points there, I'm wondering whether you think that introducing a specialist teacher-training qualification to deliver the Welsh bac would actually help in some way in improving its status and perception and so on. What do you think about that?

I'm not assured in terms of—yes, training is required regarding the Welsh bac, but where we are seeing it more successfully is where vocational lecturers have actually taken it on board. When we were bringing lecturers from outside—'Welsh bac specialists' in inverted commas—it was not working well. It has started to work well when our sports lecturers have taken the Welsh bac on board and have put it in the context of the sports curriculum. Therefore, no, I think that if it's going to be a success, it's got to be contextualised, and for the vocational lecturers to do that, and we've invested heavily in training those vocational lecturers to understand how to deliver the Welsh bac and get positive outcomes of the Welsh bac—. It's been an intensive staff development process.

And I think you've got to bear in mind that the number of the skills and the number of challenges that are done within the Welsh bac are done very similarly within the vocational qualification as well. So, a number of those staff have already got those skills and they're undertaking that. I suppose when it comes to the word 'credibility' used in terms of the qualification, yes, I'm sure it would raise that focus on it, but ultimately, it's taking away from the fact that we have got staff who've got those skills and they're developing them within other elements of the vocational qualifications they're doing. Something we were talking about earlier on is the fact is that, sometimes, that work is being repeated twice, because of the nature of the qualification.


Thank you, Chair. A lot of this has been covered, actually, but just on those final points there, I'm wondering whether you think that introducing a specialist teacher-training qualification to deliver the Welsh bac would actually help in some way in improving its status and perception and so on. What do you think about that?

I'm not assured in terms of—yes, training is required regarding the Welsh bac, but where we are seeing it more successfully is where vocational lecturers have actually taken it on board. When we were bringing lecturers from outside—'Welsh bac specialists' in inverted commas—it was not working well. It has started to work well when our sports lecturers have taken the Welsh bac on board and have put it in the context of the sports curriculum. Therefore, no, I think that if it's going to be a success, it's got to be contextualised, and for the vocational lecturers to do that, and we've invested heavily in training those vocational lecturers to understand how to deliver the Welsh bac and get positive outcomes of the Welsh bac—. It's been an intensive staff development process.

And I think you've got to bear in mind that the number of the skills and the number of challenges that are done within the Welsh bac are done very similarly within the vocational qualification as well. So, a number of those staff have already got those skills and they're undertaking that. I suppose when it comes to the word 'credibility' used in terms of the qualification, yes, I'm sure it would raise that focus on it, but ultimately, it's taking away from the fact that we have got staff who've got those skills and they're developing them within other elements of the vocational qualifications they're doing. Something we were talking about earlier on is the fact is that, sometimes, that work is being repeated twice, because of the nature of the qualification.

And have you got dedicated time? Because one of the things we picked up from schools was that teachers in particular were kind of fitting it in with other lessons, and therefore, it wasn't being, again, given the same perceived level of importance as doing A-levels were. But your lecturers would all have dedicated time to deliver—


I'm not assured in terms of—yes, training is required regarding the Welsh bac, but where we are seeing it more successfully is where vocational lecturers have actually taken it on board. When we were bringing lecturers from outside—'Welsh bac specialists' in inverted commas—it was not working well. It has started to work well when our sports lecturers have taken the Welsh bac on board and have put it in the context of the sports curriculum. Therefore, no, I think that if it's going to be a success, it's got to be contextualised, and for the vocational lecturers to do that, and we've invested heavily in training those vocational lecturers to understand how to deliver the Welsh bac and get positive outcomes of the Welsh bac—. It's been an intensive staff development process.

And I think you've got to bear in mind that the number of the skills and the number of challenges that are done within the Welsh bac are done very similarly within the vocational qualification as well. So, a number of those staff have already got those skills and they're undertaking that. I suppose when it comes to the word 'credibility' used in terms of the qualification, yes, I'm sure it would raise that focus on it, but ultimately, it's taking away from the fact that we have got staff who've got those skills and they're developing them within other elements of the vocational qualifications they're doing. Something we were talking about earlier on is the fact is that, sometimes, that work is being repeated twice, because of the nature of the qualification.

And have you got dedicated time? Because one of the things we picked up from schools was that teachers in particular were kind of fitting it in with other lessons, and therefore, it wasn't being, again, given the same perceived level of importance as doing A-levels were. But your lecturers would all have dedicated time to deliver—

On their timetables, yes. And as you say, industry specialists delivering some of those things put them more into context.


And I think you've got to bear in mind that the number of the skills and the number of challenges that are done within the Welsh bac are done very similarly within the vocational qualification as well. So, a number of those staff have already got those skills and they're undertaking that. I suppose when it comes to the word 'credibility' used in terms of the qualification, yes, I'm sure it would raise that focus on it, but ultimately, it's taking away from the fact that we have got staff who've got those skills and they're developing them within other elements of the vocational qualifications they're doing. Something we were talking about earlier on is the fact is that, sometimes, that work is being repeated twice, because of the nature of the qualification.

And have you got dedicated time? Because one of the things we picked up from schools was that teachers in particular were kind of fitting it in with other lessons, and therefore, it wasn't being, again, given the same perceived level of importance as doing A-levels were. But your lecturers would all have dedicated time to deliver—

On their timetables, yes. And as you say, industry specialists delivering some of those things put them more into context.

I was just going to add there, really, if you want to raise the profile amongst parents in particular, if you've got that far clearer link between businesses coming in to deliver this—. Apologies, I'd almost forgotten that we were in the Colegau thing, I was thinking 'schools' actually [Laughter.] But in terms of bringing those businesses into schools in a structured way, not an ad-hoc way, which is just a friend turning up to talk about something, a structured way—. We have a programme under way at the moment called 'contextualising the curriculum' in the sector that we hope to roll out. Now, if that was rolled out across the board—I'm not saying that it makes it easier for teachers in particular, but they are going to struggle to deliver some of these commercial and world-skilled, global areas, because it's not their bag. So, bring in some experts, bring in some business, raise the profile, and I think then, possibly, you'll start to get parents thinking, 'Actually, there is something more to this than just the academic bit.'


And have you got dedicated time? Because one of the things we picked up from schools was that teachers in particular were kind of fitting it in with other lessons, and therefore, it wasn't being, again, given the same perceived level of importance as doing A-levels were. But your lecturers would all have dedicated time to deliver—

On their timetables, yes. And as you say, industry specialists delivering some of those things put them more into context.

I was just going to add there, really, if you want to raise the profile amongst parents in particular, if you've got that far clearer link between businesses coming in to deliver this—. Apologies, I'd almost forgotten that we were in the Colegau thing, I was thinking 'schools' actually [Laughter.] But in terms of bringing those businesses into schools in a structured way, not an ad-hoc way, which is just a friend turning up to talk about something, a structured way—. We have a programme under way at the moment called 'contextualising the curriculum' in the sector that we hope to roll out. Now, if that was rolled out across the board—I'm not saying that it makes it easier for teachers in particular, but they are going to struggle to deliver some of these commercial and world-skilled, global areas, because it's not their bag. So, bring in some experts, bring in some business, raise the profile, and I think then, possibly, you'll start to get parents thinking, 'Actually, there is something more to this than just the academic bit.'

Okay. I think all my other points have been answered, Chair. Thank you.


On their timetables, yes. And as you say, industry specialists delivering some of those things put them more into context.

I was just going to add there, really, if you want to raise the profile amongst parents in particular, if you've got that far clearer link between businesses coming in to deliver this—. Apologies, I'd almost forgotten that we were in the Colegau thing, I was thinking 'schools' actually [Laughter.] But in terms of bringing those businesses into schools in a structured way, not an ad-hoc way, which is just a friend turning up to talk about something, a structured way—. We have a programme under way at the moment called 'contextualising the curriculum' in the sector that we hope to roll out. Now, if that was rolled out across the board—I'm not saying that it makes it easier for teachers in particular, but they are going to struggle to deliver some of these commercial and world-skilled, global areas, because it's not their bag. So, bring in some experts, bring in some business, raise the profile, and I think then, possibly, you'll start to get parents thinking, 'Actually, there is something more to this than just the academic bit.'

Okay. I think all my other points have been answered, Chair. Thank you.


OK , we 're on. So just make sure that th your wireless mike is on , if you 're wearing a wireless.


OK , we 're on. So just make sure that th your wireless mike is on , if you 're wearing a wireless.

And you should be able to see which one  which one you 're on by , uh , watching the little bars change.


OK , we 're on. So just make sure that th your wireless mike is on , if you 're wearing a wireless.

And you should be able to see which one  which one you 're on by , uh , watching the little bars change.

So , which is my bar ? Mah ! Number one.


And you should be able to see which one  which one you 're on by , uh , watching the little bars change.

So , which is my bar ? Mah ! Number one.


So , which is my bar ? Mah ! Number one.

So , actually , if you guys wanna go ahead and read digits now , as long as you 've signed the consent form , that 's alright.


So , actually , if you guys wanna go ahead and read digits now , as long as you 've signed the consent form , that 's alright.

Are we supposed to read digits at the same time ?


Are we supposed to read digits at the same time ?

Each individually. We 're talking about doing all at the same time but I think cognitively that would be really difficult.  To try to read them while everyone else is.


Each individually. We 're talking about doing all at the same time but I think cognitively that would be really difficult.  To try to read them while everyone else is.


Each individually. We 're talking about doing all at the same time but I think cognitively that would be really difficult.  To try to read them while everyone else is.

So , when you 're reading the digit strings , the first thing to do is just say which transcript you 're on.


Each individually. We 're talking about doing all at the same time but I think cognitively that would be really difficult.  To try to read them while everyone else is.

So , when you 're reading the digit strings , the first thing to do is just say which transcript you 're on.

Other way. We m We may wind up with ver We  we may need versions of all this garbage.


So , when you 're reading the digit strings , the first thing to do is just say which transcript you 're on.

Other way. We m We may wind up with ver We  we may need versions of all this garbage.


Other way. We m We may wind up with ver We  we may need versions of all this garbage.

Um. So the first thing you 'd wanna do is just say which transcript you 're on.


Um. So the first thing you 'd wanna do is just say which transcript you 're on.


Um. So the first thing you 'd wanna do is just say which transcript you 're on.

So. You can see the transcript ? There 's two large number strings on the digits ? So you would just read that one. And then you read each line with a small pause between the lines. And the pause is just so the person transcribing it can tell where one line ends and the other begins. And I 'll give  I 'll read the digit strings first , so can see how that goes. Um. Again , I 'm not sure how much I should talk about  stuff before everyone 's here.


So. You can see the transcript ? There 's two large number strings on the digits ? So you would just read that one. And then you read each line with a small pause between the lines. And the pause is just so the person transcribing it can tell where one line ends and the other begins. And I 'll give  I 'll read the digit strings first , so can see how that goes. Um. Again , I 'm not sure how much I should talk about  stuff before everyone 's here.

OK. Well , why don't I go ahead and read digit strings and then we can go on from there.


OK. Well , why don't I go ahead and read digit strings and then we can go on from there.

Thanks. So , uh , just also a note on wearing the microphones. All of you look like you 're doing it reasonably correctly , but you want it about two thumb widths away from your mouth , and then , at the corner. And that 's so that you minimize breath sounds , so that when you 're breathing , you don't breathe into the mike. Um. Yeah , that 's good. And uh  So , everyone needs to fill out , only once , the speaker form and the consent form. And the short form  I mean , you should read the consent form , but uh , the thing to notice is that we will give you an opportunity to edit a all the transcripts. So , if you say things and you don't want them to be released to the general public , which , these will be available at some point to anyone who wants them , uh , you 'll be given an opportunity by email , uh , to bleep out any portions you don't like. Um. On the speaker form just fill out as much of the information as you can. If you 're not exactly sure about the region , we 're not exactly sure either. So , don't worry too much about it. The  It 's just self rating. Um. And I think that 's about it. I mean , should I  Do you want me to talk at all about why we 're doing this and what this project is ?


Thanks. So , uh , just also a note on wearing the microphones. All of you look like you 're doing it reasonably correctly , but you want it about two thumb widths away from your mouth , and then , at the corner. And that 's so that you minimize breath sounds , so that when you 're breathing , you don't breathe into the mike. Um. Yeah , that 's good. And uh  So , everyone needs to fill out , only once , the speaker form and the consent form. And the short form  I mean , you should read the consent form , but uh , the thing to notice is that we will give you an opportunity to edit a all the transcripts. So , if you say things and you don't want them to be released to the general public , which , these will be available at some point to anyone who wants them , uh , you 'll be given an opportunity by email , uh , to bleep out any portions you don't like. Um. On the speaker form just fill out as much of the information as you can. If you 're not exactly sure about the region , we 're not exactly sure either. So , don't worry too much about it. The  It 's just self rating. Um. And I think that 's about it. I mean , should I  Do you want me to talk at all about why we 're doing this and what this project is ?


Thanks. So , uh , just also a note on wearing the microphones. All of you look like you 're doing it reasonably correctly , but you want it about two thumb widths away from your mouth , and then , at the corner. And that 's so that you minimize breath sounds , so that when you 're breathing , you don't breathe into the mike. Um. Yeah , that 's good. And uh  So , everyone needs to fill out , only once , the speaker form and the consent form. And the short form  I mean , you should read the consent form , but uh , the thing to notice is that we will give you an opportunity to edit a all the transcripts. So , if you say things and you don't want them to be released to the general public , which , these will be available at some point to anyone who wants them , uh , you 'll be given an opportunity by email , uh , to bleep out any portions you don't like. Um. On the speaker form just fill out as much of the information as you can. If you 're not exactly sure about the region , we 're not exactly sure either. So , don't worry too much about it. The  It 's just self rating. Um. And I think that 's about it. I mean , should I  Do you want me to talk at all about why we 're doing this and what this project is ?

No. There was  there was  Let 's see. Oh


No. There was  there was  Let 's see. Oh

Does Nancy know that we 're meeting in here ?


Does Nancy know that we 're meeting in here ?


Whether she knows  is another question. Um. So are the people going to be identified by name ?


Whether she knows  is another question. Um. So are the people going to be identified by name ?

Well , what we 're gonna  we 'll anonymize it in the transcript. Um , but not in the audio.


Well , what we 're gonna  we 'll anonymize it in the transcript. Um , but not in the audio.

OK. So , then in terms of people worrying about , uh , excising things from the transcript , it 's unlikely. Since it  it does isn't attributed. Oh , I see , but the a but the  but the


OK. So , then in terms of people worrying about , uh , excising things from the transcript , it 's unlikely. Since it  it does isn't attributed. Oh , I see , but the a but the  but the

Right , so if I said , " Oh , hi Jerry , how are you ? " , we 're not gonna go through and cancel out the " Jerry "s.


OK. So , then in terms of people worrying about , uh , excising things from the transcript , it 's unlikely. Since it  it does isn't attributed. Oh , I see , but the a but the  but the

Right , so if I said , " Oh , hi Jerry , how are you ? " , we 're not gonna go through and cancel out the " Jerry "s.

Um , so we will go through and , in the speaker ID tags there 'll be , you know , M - one O seven , M - one O eight.


Right , so if I said , " Oh , hi Jerry , how are you ? " , we 're not gonna go through and cancel out the " Jerry "s.

Um , so we will go through and , in the speaker ID tags there 'll be , you know , M - one O seven , M - one O eight.


Um , so we will go through and , in the speaker ID tags there 'll be , you know , M - one O seven , M - one O eight.


um , it w uh , I don't know a good way of doing it on the audio , and still have people who are doing discourse research be able to use the data.


um , it w uh , I don't know a good way of doing it on the audio , and still have people who are doing discourse research be able to use the data.

OK. Mm - hmm. No , I  I wasn't complaining ,


OK. Mm - hmm. No , I  I wasn't complaining ,


Well , we can make up aliases for each of us.


Well , we can make up aliases for each of us.

Yeah , I mean , whatever you wanna do is fine ,


Yeah , I mean , whatever you wanna do is fine ,

but we find that  We want the meeting to be as natural as possible. So , we 're trying to do real meetings.


but we find that  We want the meeting to be as natural as possible. So , we 're trying to do real meetings.


but we find that  We want the meeting to be as natural as possible. So , we 're trying to do real meetings.

And so we don't wanna have to do aliases


And so we don't wanna have to do aliases

and we don't want people to be editing what they say.


and we don't want people to be editing what they say.

So I think that it 's better just as a pro post - process to edit out every time you bash Microsoft.


So I think that it 's better just as a pro post - process to edit out every time you bash Microsoft.


Right. Um , OK. So why don't you tell us briefly


Right. Um , OK. So why don't you tell us briefly

Um. So this is  The project is called Meeting Recorder and there are lots of different aspects of the project. Um. So my particular interest is in the PDA of the future. This is a mock - up of one. Yes , we do believe the PDA of the future will be made of wood. Um.  The idea is that you 'd be able to put a PDA at the table at an impromptu meeting , and record it , and then be able to do querying and retrieval later on , on the meeting. So that 's my particular interest , is a portable device to do m uh , information retrieval on meetings. Other people are interested in other aspects of meetings. Um. So the first step on that , in any of these , is to collect some data. And so what we wanted is a room that 's instrumented with both the table top microphones , and these are very high quality pressure zone mikes , as well as the close talking mikes. What the close talk ng talking mikes gives us is some ground truth , gives us , um , high quality audio , um , especially for people who aren't interested in the acoustic parts of this corpus. So , for people who are more interested in language , we didn't want to penalize them by having only the far field mikes available. And then also , um , it 's a very , very hard task in terms of speech recognition. Um. And so , uh , on the far field mikes we can expect very low recognition results. So we wanted the near field mikes to at least isolate the difference between the two. So that 's why we 're recording in parallel with the close talking and the far field at the same time. And then , all these channels are recorded simultaneously and framed synchronously so that you can also do things like , um , beam - forming on all the microphones and do research like that. Our intention is to release this data to the public , um , probably through f through a body like the LDC. And , uh , just make it as a generally available corpus. Um.  There 's other work going on in meeting recording. So , we 're  we 're working with SRI , with UW , Um. NIST has started an effort which will include video. We 're not including video , obviously. And uh  and then also , um , a small amount of assistance from IBM. Is also involved. Um. Oh , and the digit strings , this is just a more constrained task. Um. So because the general environment is so challenging , we decided to  to do at least one set of digit strings to give ourselves something easier. And it 's exactly the same digit strings as in TI - digits , which is a common connected digits corpus. So we 'll have some , um , comparison to be able to be made.


Um. So this is  The project is called Meeting Recorder and there are lots of different aspects of the project. Um. So my particular interest is in the PDA of the future. This is a mock - up of one. Yes , we do believe the PDA of the future will be made of wood. Um.  The idea is that you 'd be able to put a PDA at the table at an impromptu meeting , and record it , and then be able to do querying and retrieval later on , on the meeting. So that 's my particular interest , is a portable device to do m uh , information retrieval on meetings. Other people are interested in other aspects of meetings. Um. So the first step on that , in any of these , is to collect some data. And so what we wanted is a room that 's instrumented with both the table top microphones , and these are very high quality pressure zone mikes , as well as the close talking mikes. What the close talk ng talking mikes gives us is some ground truth , gives us , um , high quality audio , um , especially for people who aren't interested in the acoustic parts of this corpus. So , for people who are more interested in language , we didn't want to penalize them by having only the far field mikes available. And then also , um , it 's a very , very hard task in terms of speech recognition. Um. And so , uh , on the far field mikes we can expect very low recognition results. So we wanted the near field mikes to at least isolate the difference between the two. So that 's why we 're recording in parallel with the close talking and the far field at the same time. And then , all these channels are recorded simultaneously and framed synchronously so that you can also do things like , um , beam - forming on all the microphones and do research like that. Our intention is to release this data to the public , um , probably through f through a body like the LDC. And , uh , just make it as a generally available corpus. Um.  There 's other work going on in meeting recording. So , we 're  we 're working with SRI , with UW , Um. NIST has started an effort which will include video. We 're not including video , obviously. And uh  and then also , um , a small amount of assistance from IBM. Is also involved. Um. Oh , and the digit strings , this is just a more constrained task. Um. So because the general environment is so challenging , we decided to  to do at least one set of digit strings to give ourselves something easier. And it 's exactly the same digit strings as in TI - digits , which is a common connected digits corpus. So we 'll have some , um , comparison to be able to be made.


OK , so when the l last person comes in , just have them wear a wireless. It should be on already. Um. Either one of those. And uh , read the digit strings and  and fill out the forms. So , the most important form is the consent form , so just be s be sure everyone signs that , if they consent.


OK , so when the l last person comes in , just have them wear a wireless. It should be on already. Um. Either one of those. And uh , read the digit strings and  and fill out the forms. So , the most important form is the consent form , so just be s be sure everyone signs that , if they consent.

I 'm sure it 's pretty usual for meetings that people come late ,


I 'm sure it 's pretty usual for meetings that people come late ,

Right. And uh , just give me a call , which , my number 's up there when your meeting is over.


Right. And uh , just give me a call , which , my number 's up there when your meeting is over.


Right. And uh , just give me a call , which , my number 's up there when your meeting is over.

And  I 'm going to leave the mike here but it 's n  Uh , but I 'm not gonna be on so don't have them use this one. It 'll just be sitting here.


And  I 'm going to leave the mike here but it 's n  Uh , but I 'm not gonna be on so don't have them use this one. It 'll just be sitting here.

By the way , Adam , we will be using the , uh , screen as well.


By the way , Adam , we will be using the , uh , screen as well.

So , you know. Wow ! Organization. So you guys who got email about this  oh f uh , Friday or something about what we 're up to.


So , you know. Wow ! Organization. So you guys who got email about this  oh f uh , Friday or something about what we 're up to.


Oh , this was about  um , inferring intentions from features in context , and the words , like " s go to see " , or " visit " , or some


I guess these g have got better filters. Cuz I sent it to everybody. You just blew it off.


I guess these g have got better filters. Cuz I sent it to everybody. You just blew it off.

It 's really simple though. So this is the idea. Um. We could pursue , um , if we thought it 's  it 's worth it but , uh , I think we  we will agree on that , um , to come up with a  with a sort of very , very first crude prototype , and do some implementation work , and do some  some research , and some modeling. So the idea is if you want to go somewhere , um , and focus on that object down  Oh , I can actually walk with this. This is nice. down here. That 's the Powder - Tower. Now , um ,  we found in our , uh , data and from experiments , that there 's three things you can do. Um , you can walk this way , and come really , really close to it. And touch it. But you cannot enter or do anything else. Unless you 're interested in rock climbing , it won't do you no good standing there. It 's just a dark alley. But you can touch it. If you want to actually go up or into the tower , you have to go this way , and then through some buildings and up some stairs and so forth. If you actually want to see the tower , and that 's what actually most people want to do , is just have a good look of it , take a picture for the family ,  you have to go this way , and go up here. And there you have a vre really view  It exploded , the  during the Thirty years - war. Really uh , interesting sight. And um , these uh  these lines are , um , paths ,


It 's really simple though. So this is the idea. Um. We could pursue , um , if we thought it 's  it 's worth it but , uh , I think we  we will agree on that , um , to come up with a  with a sort of very , very first crude prototype , and do some implementation work , and do some  some research , and some modeling. So the idea is if you want to go somewhere , um , and focus on that object down  Oh , I can actually walk with this. This is nice. down here. That 's the Powder - Tower. Now , um ,  we found in our , uh , data and from experiments , that there 's three things you can do. Um , you can walk this way , and come really , really close to it. And touch it. But you cannot enter or do anything else. Unless you 're interested in rock climbing , it won't do you no good standing there. It 's just a dark alley. But you can touch it. If you want to actually go up or into the tower , you have to go this way , and then through some buildings and up some stairs and so forth. If you actually want to see the tower , and that 's what actually most people want to do , is just have a good look of it , take a picture for the family ,  you have to go this way , and go up here. And there you have a vre really view  It exploded , the  during the Thirty years - war. Really uh , interesting sight. And um , these uh  these lines are , um , paths ,


It 's really simple though. So this is the idea. Um. We could pursue , um , if we thought it 's  it 's worth it but , uh , I think we  we will agree on that , um , to come up with a  with a sort of very , very first crude prototype , and do some implementation work , and do some  some research , and some modeling. So the idea is if you want to go somewhere , um , and focus on that object down  Oh , I can actually walk with this. This is nice. down here. That 's the Powder - Tower. Now , um ,  we found in our , uh , data and from experiments , that there 's three things you can do. Um , you can walk this way , and come really , really close to it. And touch it. But you cannot enter or do anything else. Unless you 're interested in rock climbing , it won't do you no good standing there. It 's just a dark alley. But you can touch it. If you want to actually go up or into the tower , you have to go this way , and then through some buildings and up some stairs and so forth. If you actually want to see the tower , and that 's what actually most people want to do , is just have a good look of it , take a picture for the family ,  you have to go this way , and go up here. And there you have a vre really view  It exploded , the  during the Thirty years - war. Really uh , interesting sight. And um , these uh  these lines are , um , paths ,

or so That 's ab er , i the street network of our geographic information system. And you can tell that we deliberately cut out this part. Because otherwise we couldn't get our GIS system to take  to lead people this way. It would always use the closest point to the object , and then the tourists would be faced , you know , in front of a wall , but it would do them absolutely no good. So ,  what we found interesting is , first of all , intentions differ. Maybe you want to enter a building. Maybe you want to see it , take a picture of it. Or maybe you actually want to come as close as possible to the building. For whatever reason that may be.


or so That 's ab er , i the street network of our geographic information system. And you can tell that we deliberately cut out this part. Because otherwise we couldn't get our GIS system to take  to lead people this way. It would always use the closest point to the object , and then the tourists would be faced , you know , in front of a wall , but it would do them absolutely no good. So ,  what we found interesting is , first of all , intentions differ. Maybe you want to enter a building. Maybe you want to see it , take a picture of it. Or maybe you actually want to come as close as possible to the building. For whatever reason that may be.


Yeah , maybe you would want to touch it. Um. Okay , I  This , um  These intentions , we  w w we could , if we want to , call it the  the Vista mode , where we just want to  eh  s get the overview or look at it , the Enter mode , and the , well , Tango mode. I always come up with  with silly names. So this " Tango " means , literally translated , " to touch ". So  But sometimes the  the Tango mode is really relevant in the  in the sense that , um , if you want to , uh  If you don't have the intention of entering your building , but you know that something is really close to it , and you just want to approach it , or get to that building. Consider , for example , the Post Office in Chicago , a building so large that it has its own zip code. So the entrance could be miles away from the closest point. So sometimes it m m m makes sense maybe to d to distinguish there. So , um , I 've looked , uh , through twenty some  Uh , I didn't look through all the data. um , and there  there 's uh , a lot more different ways in people  uh , the ways people phrase how to g get  if they want to get to a certain place. And sometimes here it 's b it 's a little bit more obvious  Um.  Maybe I should go back a couple of steps and go through the


Yeah , maybe you would want to touch it. Um. Okay , I  This , um  These intentions , we  w w we could , if we want to , call it the  the Vista mode , where we just want to  eh  s get the overview or look at it , the Enter mode , and the , well , Tango mode. I always come up with  with silly names. So this " Tango " means , literally translated , " to touch ". So  But sometimes the  the Tango mode is really relevant in the  in the sense that , um , if you want to , uh  If you don't have the intention of entering your building , but you know that something is really close to it , and you just want to approach it , or get to that building. Consider , for example , the Post Office in Chicago , a building so large that it has its own zip code. So the entrance could be miles away from the closest point. So sometimes it m m m makes sense maybe to d to distinguish there. So , um , I 've looked , uh , through twenty some  Uh , I didn't look through all the data. um , and there  there 's uh , a lot more different ways in people  uh , the ways people phrase how to g get  if they want to get to a certain place. And sometimes here it 's b it 's a little bit more obvious  Um.  Maybe I should go back a couple of steps and go through the

No , OK come in , sit down. If you grab yourself a microphone.


Yeah , maybe you would want to touch it. Um. Okay , I  This , um  These intentions , we  w w we could , if we want to , call it the  the Vista mode , where we just want to  eh  s get the overview or look at it , the Enter mode , and the , well , Tango mode. I always come up with  with silly names. So this " Tango " means , literally translated , " to touch ". So  But sometimes the  the Tango mode is really relevant in the  in the sense that , um , if you want to , uh  If you don't have the intention of entering your building , but you know that something is really close to it , and you just want to approach it , or get to that building. Consider , for example , the Post Office in Chicago , a building so large that it has its own zip code. So the entrance could be miles away from the closest point. So sometimes it m m m makes sense maybe to d to distinguish there. So , um , I 've looked , uh , through twenty some  Uh , I didn't look through all the data. um , and there  there 's uh , a lot more different ways in people  uh , the ways people phrase how to g get  if they want to get to a certain place. And sometimes here it 's b it 's a little bit more obvious  Um.  Maybe I should go back a couple of steps and go through the

No , OK come in , sit down. If you grab yourself a microphone.

You need to sign some stuff and read some digits.


No , OK come in , sit down. If you grab yourself a microphone.

You need to sign some stuff and read some digits.


You need to sign some stuff and read some digits.

You have to al also have to read some digits.


You have to al also have to read some digits.


And it  it  it  it it also has to be switched on , Nance.


And it  it  it  it it also has to be switched on , Nance.

No , that one 's already on , I thought he said.


No , that one 's already on , I thought he said.


OK. That was the idea. Um , people , when they w when they want to go to a building , sometimes they just want to look at it. Sometimes they want to enter it. And sometimes they want to get really close to it. That 's something we found. It 's just a truism. And the places where you will lead them for these intentions are sometimes ex in incredibly different. I  I gave an example where the point where you end up if you want to look at it is completely different from where  if you want to enter it. So , this is sort of how people may , uh  may phrase those requests to a  a  a mock - up system at least that 's the way they did it. And we get tons of  of these " how do I get to " , " I want to go to " , but also , " give me directions to " , and " I would like to see ". And um , what we can sort of do , if we look closer a closer at the  the data  That was the wrong one. um , we can look at some factors that may make a difference. First of all , very important , and um , that  I 've completely forgot that when we talked. This is of course a crucial factor , " what type of object is it ? " So , some buildings you just don't want to take pictures of. Or very rarely. But you usually want to enter them. Some objects are more picturesque , and you  more f more highly photographed. Then of course the  the actual phrases may give us some idea of what the person wants. Um. Sometimes I found in the  Uh , looking at the data , in a superficial way , I found some s sort of modifiers that  that m may also give us a hint , um , " I 'm trying to get to " Nuh ? " I need to get to ". Sort of hints to the fact that you 're not really sightseeing and  and just f there for pleasure and so forth and so on. And this leads us straight to the context which also should be considered. That whatever it is you 're doing at the moment may also inter influence the interpretation of  of a phrase. So , this is , uh , really uh , uh , uh  My suggestion is really simple. We start with , um  Now , Let me , uh , say one more thing. What we do know , is that the parser we use in the SmartKom system will never differentiate between any of these. So , basically all of these things will result in the same XML M - three - L structure. Sort of action " go " , and then an object.


OK. That was the idea. Um , people , when they w when they want to go to a building , sometimes they just want to look at it. Sometimes they want to enter it. And sometimes they want to get really close to it. That 's something we found. It 's just a truism. And the places where you will lead them for these intentions are sometimes ex in incredibly different. I  I gave an example where the point where you end up if you want to look at it is completely different from where  if you want to enter it. So , this is sort of how people may , uh  may phrase those requests to a  a  a mock - up system at least that 's the way they did it. And we get tons of  of these " how do I get to " , " I want to go to " , but also , " give me directions to " , and " I would like to see ". And um , what we can sort of do , if we look closer a closer at the  the data  That was the wrong one. um , we can look at some factors that may make a difference. First of all , very important , and um , that  I 've completely forgot that when we talked. This is of course a crucial factor , " what type of object is it ? " So , some buildings you just don't want to take pictures of. Or very rarely. But you usually want to enter them. Some objects are more picturesque , and you  more f more highly photographed. Then of course the  the actual phrases may give us some idea of what the person wants. Um. Sometimes I found in the  Uh , looking at the data , in a superficial way , I found some s sort of modifiers that  that m may also give us a hint , um , " I 'm trying to get to " Nuh ? " I need to get to ". Sort of hints to the fact that you 're not really sightseeing and  and just f there for pleasure and so forth and so on. And this leads us straight to the context which also should be considered. That whatever it is you 're doing at the moment may also inter influence the interpretation of  of a phrase. So , this is , uh , really uh , uh , uh  My suggestion is really simple. We start with , um  Now , Let me , uh , say one more thing. What we do know , is that the parser we use in the SmartKom system will never differentiate between any of these. So , basically all of these things will result in the same XML M - three - L structure. Sort of action " go " , and then an object.

Yeah ? and a source. So it 's  it 's  it 's way too crude to d capture those differences in intentions. So , I thought , " Mmm ! Maybe for a deep understanding task , that 's a nice sort of playground or first little thing. " Where we can start it and n sort of look  " OK , we need , we gonna get those M - three - L structures. The crude , undifferentiated parse. Interpreted input. We may need additional part of speech , or maybe just some information on the verb , and modifiers , auxiliaries. We 'll see. And I will try to  to sort of come up with a list of factors that we need to get out of there , and maybe we want to get a g switch for the context. So this is not something which we can actually monitor ,  now , but just is something we can set. And then you can all imagine sort of a  a constrained satisfaction program , depending on  on what , um , comes out. We want to have an  a structure resulting if we feed it through a belief - net or  or something along those lines. We 'd get an inferred intention , we  we produce a structure that differentiates between the Vista , the Enter , and the , um , Tango mode. Which I think we maybe want to ignore. But. That 's my idea. It 's up for discussion. We can change all of it , any bit of it. Throw it all away.


OK. That was the idea. Um , people , when they w when they want to go to a building , sometimes they just want to look at it. Sometimes they want to enter it. And sometimes they want to get really close to it. That 's something we found. It 's just a truism. And the places where you will lead them for these intentions are sometimes ex in incredibly different. I  I gave an example where the point where you end up if you want to look at it is completely different from where  if you want to enter it. So , this is sort of how people may , uh  may phrase those requests to a  a  a mock - up system at least that 's the way they did it. And we get tons of  of these " how do I get to " , " I want to go to " , but also , " give me directions to " , and " I would like to see ". And um , what we can sort of do , if we look closer a closer at the  the data  That was the wrong one. um , we can look at some factors that may make a difference. First of all , very important , and um , that  I 've completely forgot that when we talked. This is of course a crucial factor , " what type of object is it ? " So , some buildings you just don't want to take pictures of. Or very rarely. But you usually want to enter them. Some objects are more picturesque , and you  more f more highly photographed. Then of course the  the actual phrases may give us some idea of what the person wants. Um. Sometimes I found in the  Uh , looking at the data , in a superficial way , I found some s sort of modifiers that  that m may also give us a hint , um , " I 'm trying to get to " Nuh ? " I need to get to ". Sort of hints to the fact that you 're not really sightseeing and  and just f there for pleasure and so forth and so on. And this leads us straight to the context which also should be considered. That whatever it is you 're doing at the moment may also inter influence the interpretation of  of a phrase. So , this is , uh , really uh , uh , uh  My suggestion is really simple. We start with , um  Now , Let me , uh , say one more thing. What we do know , is that the parser we use in the SmartKom system will never differentiate between any of these. So , basically all of these things will result in the same XML M - three - L structure. Sort of action " go " , and then an object.

Yeah ? and a source. So it 's  it 's  it 's way too crude to d capture those differences in intentions. So , I thought , " Mmm ! Maybe for a deep understanding task , that 's a nice sort of playground or first little thing. " Where we can start it and n sort of look  " OK , we need , we gonna get those M - three - L structures. The crude , undifferentiated parse. Interpreted input. We may need additional part of speech , or maybe just some information on the verb , and modifiers , auxiliaries. We 'll see. And I will try to  to sort of come up with a list of factors that we need to get out of there , and maybe we want to get a g switch for the context. So this is not something which we can actually monitor ,  now , but just is something we can set. And then you can all imagine sort of a  a constrained satisfaction program , depending on  on what , um , comes out. We want to have an  a structure resulting if we feed it through a belief - net or  or something along those lines. We 'd get an inferred intention , we  we produce a structure that differentiates between the Vista , the Enter , and the , um , Tango mode. Which I think we maybe want to ignore. But. That 's my idea. It 's up for discussion. We can change all of it , any bit of it. Throw it all away.

Now @ @ this email that you sent , actually.


Yeah ? and a source. So it 's  it 's  it 's way too crude to d capture those differences in intentions. So , I thought , " Mmm ! Maybe for a deep understanding task , that 's a nice sort of playground or first little thing. " Where we can start it and n sort of look  " OK , we need , we gonna get those M - three - L structures. The crude , undifferentiated parse. Interpreted input. We may need additional part of speech , or maybe just some information on the verb , and modifiers , auxiliaries. We 'll see. And I will try to  to sort of come up with a list of factors that we need to get out of there , and maybe we want to get a g switch for the context. So this is not something which we can actually monitor ,  now , but just is something we can set. And then you can all imagine sort of a  a constrained satisfaction program , depending on  on what , um , comes out. We want to have an  a structure resulting if we feed it through a belief - net or  or something along those lines. We 'd get an inferred intention , we  we produce a structure that differentiates between the Vista , the Enter , and the , um , Tango mode. Which I think we maybe want to ignore. But. That 's my idea. It 's up for discussion. We can change all of it , any bit of it. Throw it all away.

Now @ @ this email that you sent , actually.


Now @ @ this email that you sent , actually.


Huh. Still , I have no recollection whatsoever of the email. I 'll have to go back and check.


Huh. Still , I have no recollection whatsoever of the email. I 'll have to go back and check.

Not important. So , what is important is that we understand what the proposed task is. And , the  the i uh , Robert and I talked about this some on Friday. And we think it 's well - formed. So we think it 's a well - formed , uh , starter task for this , uh , deeper understanding in the tourist domain.


Huh. Still , I have no recollection whatsoever of the email. I 'll have to go back and check.

Not important. So , what is important is that we understand what the proposed task is. And , the  the i uh , Robert and I talked about this some on Friday. And we think it 's well - formed. So we think it 's a well - formed , uh , starter task for this , uh , deeper understanding in the tourist domain.

So , where exactly is the , uh , deeper understanding being done ? Like I mean , s is it before the Bayes - net ? Is it , uh


Huh. Still , I have no recollection whatsoever of the email. I 'll have to go back and check.

Not important. So , what is important is that we understand what the proposed task is. And , the  the i uh , Robert and I talked about this some on Friday. And we think it 's well - formed. So we think it 's a well - formed , uh , starter task for this , uh , deeper understanding in the tourist domain.

So , where exactly is the , uh , deeper understanding being done ? Like I mean , s is it before the Bayes - net ? Is it , uh

Well , it 's the  it 's  it 's always all of it. So , in general it 's always going to be , the answer is , everywhere. Uh , so the notion is that , uh , this isn't real deep. But it 's deep enough that you can distinguish between these th three quite different kinds of , uh , going to see some tourist thing. And , so that 's  that 's the quote " deep " that we 're trying to get at. And , Robert 's point is that the current front - end doesn't give you any way to  Not only doesn't it do it , but it also doesn't give you enough information to do it. It isn't like , if you just took what the front - end gives you , and used some clever inference algorithm on it , you would be able to figure out which of these is going on. So , uh , and this is  Bu - I in general it 's gonna be true of any kind of deep understanding , there 's gonna be contextual things , there 're gonna be linguistic things , there 're gonna be discourse things , and they gotta be combined. And , my idea on how to combine them is with a belief - net , although it may turn out that t some totally different thing is gonna work better. Um , the idea would be that  you , uh , take your  You 're editing your slide ?


Not important. So , what is important is that we understand what the proposed task is. And , the  the i uh , Robert and I talked about this some on Friday. And we think it 's well - formed. So we think it 's a well - formed , uh , starter task for this , uh , deeper understanding in the tourist domain.

So , where exactly is the , uh , deeper understanding being done ? Like I mean , s is it before the Bayes - net ? Is it , uh

Well , it 's the  it 's  it 's always all of it. So , in general it 's always going to be , the answer is , everywhere. Uh , so the notion is that , uh , this isn't real deep. But it 's deep enough that you can distinguish between these th three quite different kinds of , uh , going to see some tourist thing. And , so that 's  that 's the quote " deep " that we 're trying to get at. And , Robert 's point is that the current front - end doesn't give you any way to  Not only doesn't it do it , but it also doesn't give you enough information to do it. It isn't like , if you just took what the front - end gives you , and used some clever inference algorithm on it , you would be able to figure out which of these is going on. So , uh , and this is  Bu - I in general it 's gonna be true of any kind of deep understanding , there 's gonna be contextual things , there 're gonna be linguistic things , there 're gonna be discourse things , and they gotta be combined. And , my idea on how to combine them is with a belief - net , although it may turn out that t some totally different thing is gonna work better. Um , the idea would be that  you , uh , take your  You 're editing your slide ?

Yeah. As i a sort of , as I get ideas , uh w uh.


So , where exactly is the , uh , deeper understanding being done ? Like I mean , s is it before the Bayes - net ? Is it , uh

Well , it 's the  it 's  it 's always all of it. So , in general it 's always going to be , the answer is , everywhere. Uh , so the notion is that , uh , this isn't real deep. But it 's deep enough that you can distinguish between these th three quite different kinds of , uh , going to see some tourist thing. And , so that 's  that 's the quote " deep " that we 're trying to get at. And , Robert 's point is that the current front - end doesn't give you any way to  Not only doesn't it do it , but it also doesn't give you enough information to do it. It isn't like , if you just took what the front - end gives you , and used some clever inference algorithm on it , you would be able to figure out which of these is going on. So , uh , and this is  Bu - I in general it 's gonna be true of any kind of deep understanding , there 's gonna be contextual things , there 're gonna be linguistic things , there 're gonna be discourse things , and they gotta be combined. And , my idea on how to combine them is with a belief - net , although it may turn out that t some totally different thing is gonna work better. Um , the idea would be that  you , uh , take your  You 're editing your slide ?

Yeah. As i a sort of , as I get ideas , uh w uh.


Well , it 's the  it 's  it 's always all of it. So , in general it 's always going to be , the answer is , everywhere. Uh , so the notion is that , uh , this isn't real deep. But it 's deep enough that you can distinguish between these th three quite different kinds of , uh , going to see some tourist thing. And , so that 's  that 's the quote " deep " that we 're trying to get at. And , Robert 's point is that the current front - end doesn't give you any way to  Not only doesn't it do it , but it also doesn't give you enough information to do it. It isn't like , if you just took what the front - end gives you , and used some clever inference algorithm on it , you would be able to figure out which of these is going on. So , uh , and this is  Bu - I in general it 's gonna be true of any kind of deep understanding , there 's gonna be contextual things , there 're gonna be linguistic things , there 're gonna be discourse things , and they gotta be combined. And , my idea on how to combine them is with a belief - net , although it may turn out that t some totally different thing is gonna work better. Um , the idea would be that  you , uh , take your  You 're editing your slide ?

Yeah. As i a sort of , as I get ideas , uh w uh.

So , discourse  I  I  I thought about that. Of course that needs to sort of go in there.


Yeah. As i a sort of , as I get ideas , uh w uh.

So , discourse  I  I  I thought about that. Of course that needs to sort of go in there.

Oh. I 'm sorry. OK. So. This is minutes  taking minutes as we go , in his  in his own way.


So , discourse  I  I  I thought about that. Of course that needs to sort of go in there.

Oh. I 'm sorry. OK. So. This is minutes  taking minutes as we go , in his  in his own way.


So , discourse  I  I  I thought about that. Of course that needs to sort of go in there.

Oh. I 'm sorry. OK. So. This is minutes  taking minutes as we go , in his  in his own way.

Um , but the p the  Anyway. So the thing is ,  i uh , d naively speaking , you 've  you 've got a  for this little task , a belief - net , which is going to have as output , the conditional pr probability of one of three things , that the person wants to  uh , to View it , to Enter it , or to Tango with it. Um. So that  the  the output of the belief - net is pretty well formed. And , then the inputs are going to be these kinds of things. And , then the question is  there are two questions  is , uh , one , where do you get this i  information from , and two , what 's the structure of the belief - net ? So what are the conditional probabilities of this , that , and the other , given these things ? And you probably need intermediate nodes. I  we don't know what they are yet. So it may well be that , uh , for example , that , uh , knowing whether  Oh , another thing you want is some information abou I think , about the time of day. Now , they may wanna call that part of context.


Oh. I 'm sorry. OK. So. This is minutes  taking minutes as we go , in his  in his own way.

Um , but the p the  Anyway. So the thing is ,  i uh , d naively speaking , you 've  you 've got a  for this little task , a belief - net , which is going to have as output , the conditional pr probability of one of three things , that the person wants to  uh , to View it , to Enter it , or to Tango with it. Um. So that  the  the output of the belief - net is pretty well formed. And , then the inputs are going to be these kinds of things. And , then the question is  there are two questions  is , uh , one , where do you get this i  information from , and two , what 's the structure of the belief - net ? So what are the conditional probabilities of this , that , and the other , given these things ? And you probably need intermediate nodes. I  we don't know what they are yet. So it may well be that , uh , for example , that , uh , knowing whether  Oh , another thing you want is some information abou I think , about the time of day. Now , they may wanna call that part of context.


Um , but the p the  Anyway. So the thing is ,  i uh , d naively speaking , you 've  you 've got a  for this little task , a belief - net , which is going to have as output , the conditional pr probability of one of three things , that the person wants to  uh , to View it , to Enter it , or to Tango with it. Um. So that  the  the output of the belief - net is pretty well formed. And , then the inputs are going to be these kinds of things. And , then the question is  there are two questions  is , uh , one , where do you get this i  information from , and two , what 's the structure of the belief - net ? So what are the conditional probabilities of this , that , and the other , given these things ? And you probably need intermediate nodes. I  we don't know what they are yet. So it may well be that , uh , for example , that , uh , knowing whether  Oh , another thing you want is some information abou I think , about the time of day. Now , they may wanna call that part of context.

But the time of day matters a lot. And , if things are obviously closed , then , you


But the time of day matters a lot. And , if things are obviously closed , then , you

Pe - people don't wanna enter them. And , if it 's not obvious , you may want to actually uh , point out to people that it 's closed  you know , what they 're g going to is closed and they don't have the option of entering it.


Pe - people don't wanna enter them. And , if it 's not obvious , you may want to actually uh , point out to people that it 's closed  you know , what they 're g going to is closed and they don't have the option of entering it.

So another thing that can come up , and will come up as soon as you get serious about this is , that another option of course is to have a  more of a dialogue. So if someone says something you could ask them.


So another thing that can come up , and will come up as soon as you get serious about this is , that another option of course is to have a  more of a dialogue. So if someone says something you could ask them.

OK. And  Now , one thing you could do is always ask them , but that 's boring. And it also w it also be a pain for the person using it. So one thing you could do is build a little system that , said , " whenever you got a question like that I 've got one of three answers. Ask them which one you want. " OK. But that 's , um , not what we 're gonna do.


So another thing that can come up , and will come up as soon as you get serious about this is , that another option of course is to have a  more of a dialogue. So if someone says something you could ask them.

OK. And  Now , one thing you could do is always ask them , but that 's boring. And it also w it also be a pain for the person using it. So one thing you could do is build a little system that , said , " whenever you got a question like that I 've got one of three answers. Ask them which one you want. " OK. But that 's , um , not what we 're gonna do.

But maybe that 's a false state of the system , that it 's too close to call.


OK. And  Now , one thing you could do is always ask them , but that 's boring. And it also w it also be a pain for the person using it. So one thing you could do is build a little system that , said , " whenever you got a question like that I 've got one of three answers. Ask them which one you want. " OK. But that 's , um , not what we 're gonna do.

But maybe that 's a false state of the system , that it 's too close to call.

Oh yeah. You want the  you want the ability to a You want the ability to ask , but what you don't wanna do is onl build a system that always asks every time , and i That 's not getting at the scientific problem ,


But maybe that 's a false state of the system , that it 's too close to call.

Oh yeah. You want the  you want the ability to a You want the ability to ask , but what you don't wanna do is onl build a system that always asks every time , and i That 's not getting at the scientific problem ,

and it 's  In general you 're  you know , it 's gonna be much more complex than that. a This is purposely a really simple case.


Oh yeah. You want the  you want the ability to a You want the ability to ask , but what you don't wanna do is onl build a system that always asks every time , and i That 's not getting at the scientific problem ,

and it 's  In general you 're  you know , it 's gonna be much more complex than that. a This is purposely a really simple case.


and it 's  In general you 're  you know , it 's gonna be much more complex than that. a This is purposely a really simple case.


and it 's  In general you 're  you know , it 's gonna be much more complex than that. a This is purposely a really simple case.

I have one more point to  to Bhaskara 's question. Um , I think also the  the  the deep understanding part of it is  is going to be in there to the extent that we um , want it in terms of our modeling. We can start , you know , basic from human beings , model that , its motions , going , walking , seeing , we can mem model all of that and then compose whatever inferences o we make out of these really conceptual primitives. That will be extremely deep in the  in  in  in my understanding.


I have one more point to  to Bhaskara 's question. Um , I think also the  the  the deep understanding part of it is  is going to be in there to the extent that we um , want it in terms of our modeling. We can start , you know , basic from human beings , model that , its motions , going , walking , seeing , we can mem model all of that and then compose whatever inferences o we make out of these really conceptual primitives. That will be extremely deep in the  in  in  in my understanding.

Yeah. S so  so the way that might come up , if you wanna  Suppose you wanted to do that , you might say , " Um , as an intermediate step in your belief - net , is there a Source - Path - Goal schema involved ? " OK ? And if so , uh , is there a focus on the goal ? Or is there a focus on the path ? or something. And that could be , uh , one of the conditiona you know , th the  In some piece of the belief - net , that could be the  the appropriate thing to enter.


I have one more point to  to Bhaskara 's question. Um , I think also the  the  the deep understanding part of it is  is going to be in there to the extent that we um , want it in terms of our modeling. We can start , you know , basic from human beings , model that , its motions , going , walking , seeing , we can mem model all of that and then compose whatever inferences o we make out of these really conceptual primitives. That will be extremely deep in the  in  in  in my understanding.

Yeah. S so  so the way that might come up , if you wanna  Suppose you wanted to do that , you might say , " Um , as an intermediate step in your belief - net , is there a Source - Path - Goal schema involved ? " OK ? And if so , uh , is there a focus on the goal ? Or is there a focus on the path ? or something. And that could be , uh , one of the conditiona you know , th the  In some piece of the belief - net , that could be the  the appropriate thing to enter.

So , where would we extract that information from ? From the M - three - L ?


I have one more point to  to Bhaskara 's question. Um , I think also the  the  the deep understanding part of it is  is going to be in there to the extent that we um , want it in terms of our modeling. We can start , you know , basic from human beings , model that , its motions , going , walking , seeing , we can mem model all of that and then compose whatever inferences o we make out of these really conceptual primitives. That will be extremely deep in the  in  in  in my understanding.

Yeah. S so  so the way that might come up , if you wanna  Suppose you wanted to do that , you might say , " Um , as an intermediate step in your belief - net , is there a Source - Path - Goal schema involved ? " OK ? And if so , uh , is there a focus on the goal ? Or is there a focus on the path ? or something. And that could be , uh , one of the conditiona you know , th the  In some piece of the belief - net , that could be the  the appropriate thing to enter.

So , where would we extract that information from ? From the M - three - L ?

No. No. See , the M - three - L is not gonna give th What he was saying is , the M - three - L does not have any of that. All it has is some really crude stuff saying , " A person wants to go to a place. "


Yeah. S so  so the way that might come up , if you wanna  Suppose you wanted to do that , you might say , " Um , as an intermediate step in your belief - net , is there a Source - Path - Goal schema involved ? " OK ? And if so , uh , is there a focus on the goal ? Or is there a focus on the path ? or something. And that could be , uh , one of the conditiona you know , th the  In some piece of the belief - net , that could be the  the appropriate thing to enter.

So , where would we extract that information from ? From the M - three - L ?

No. No. See , the M - three - L is not gonna give th What he was saying is , the M - three - L does not have any of that. All it has is some really crude stuff saying , " A person wants to go to a place. "