Thank you. Cabinet Secretary, you know that this committee has taken a very keen interest in the emotional and mental health of our young people. In the summer, the English universities Minister made an announcement about the development of a new mental health charter. That followed some concerns about young people dying by suicide across the UK. Is Welsh Government expecting Welsh universities to sign up to that charter or are you planning to work on your own?

Thank you for raising this. I think it's really important that whilst for many, many, many young people moving away from home and starting their degree course is an incredibly exciting time and something they look forward to hugely, it can bring significant stresses with it, especially for first-year students, who, as I said, are moving away, perhaps are suddenly responsible for finances in a way they've never been responsible for, for all the day-to-day living that perhaps they've relied on other people to assist them with. So, it can be quite a stressful time. So, it is right that we look at how we can support health and well-being for students, especially mental health and mental resilience. So, I very much welcome the work on the mental health charter, and HEFCW are engaged and keeping a very close eye on what's going on to see the opportunities for Welsh universities to participate in that. But this was on a recent agenda item that I had with HEFCW, and indeed with the vice-chancellors, when I met them last week, or the week before last. So, they are developing their own strategic approach to well-being and health for students, which will be underpinned by a co-created action plan with the universities themselves on supporting students with mental health problems in particular. So, the strategic approach and the action plan are being developed by HEFCW at the moment and HEFCW are also meeting with colleagues from England and Scotland to see the opportunities for a universal approach across the UK to supporting students. The universities, when I met with them recently, all shared a commitment to do better in this particular area. One, because it's the right thing to do, but, actually, stopping people from dropping out and not completing their courses obviously is of a financial benefit to the institution. So, it's actually the right thing to do for their students, they want to do it for that reason, but, actually, there is a strong financial underpinning to ensure that students complete their studies. So, it's looking at, again, each university looking at individual approaches of how better they can do that. But it's not just responding to students who become unwell, it's actually, 'What can we do to in the campus to maintain good mental health?' So, rather than just trying to fix a problem once it's occurred, it's 'What can we do?' And you'll be aware of individual institutions taking different approaches. It's not something that we dictate, but individual institutions—when they do exams, how work is assessed and marked and graded—are taking different steps to promote well-being, as well as then responding to situations where students become unwell. We do know that financial pressures can be a source of huge stress for students, so we are constantly working with the Student Loans Company to make sure that the services that they offer to people are as good as they can be, and that there are no unnecessary delays that, perhaps, put a student under pressure or give students worries about their financial situation. And I would argue our Diamond reforms, which allow students access to a living wage—for some students, completely by a grant, for some students, a combination of grant and loan, with no expectation at all that your parents will contribute, which is not the case in other places where there is an expectation of parental contribution—that actually, hopefully, addresses some of those financial worries that some students may have. But I am aware that if people are waiting for their grant or people are waiting for their payments, that can be a source of stress. So, ensuring that we have good performance by the Student Loans Company is crucial.

Okay, thank you. And I'm sure the committee's very interested to hear the update on that. Are you able to give us any indication of timescale by which you'd expect HEFCW and the individual universities to actually have this work in place?

I'm not sure, but I will write to the committee and let you know. In fact, we can probably provide, from Universities Wales and from the work that's going on centrally, a list of proposals that are being undertaken.


Thank you for raising this. I think it's really important that whilst for many, many, many young people moving away from home and starting their degree course is an incredibly exciting time and something they look forward to hugely, it can bring significant stresses with it, especially for first-year students, who, as I said, are moving away, perhaps are suddenly responsible for finances in a way they've never been responsible for, for all the day-to-day living that perhaps they've relied on other people to assist them with. So, it can be quite a stressful time. So, it is right that we look at how we can support health and well-being for students, especially mental health and mental resilience. So, I very much welcome the work on the mental health charter, and HEFCW are engaged and keeping a very close eye on what's going on to see the opportunities for Welsh universities to participate in that. But this was on a recent agenda item that I had with HEFCW, and indeed with the vice-chancellors, when I met them last week, or the week before last. So, they are developing their own strategic approach to well-being and health for students, which will be underpinned by a co-created action plan with the universities themselves on supporting students with mental health problems in particular. So, the strategic approach and the action plan are being developed by HEFCW at the moment and HEFCW are also meeting with colleagues from England and Scotland to see the opportunities for a universal approach across the UK to supporting students. The universities, when I met with them recently, all shared a commitment to do better in this particular area. One, because it's the right thing to do, but, actually, stopping people from dropping out and not completing their courses obviously is of a financial benefit to the institution. So, it's actually the right thing to do for their students, they want to do it for that reason, but, actually, there is a strong financial underpinning to ensure that students complete their studies. So, it's looking at, again, each university looking at individual approaches of how better they can do that. But it's not just responding to students who become unwell, it's actually, 'What can we do to in the campus to maintain good mental health?' So, rather than just trying to fix a problem once it's occurred, it's 'What can we do?' And you'll be aware of individual institutions taking different approaches. It's not something that we dictate, but individual institutions—when they do exams, how work is assessed and marked and graded—are taking different steps to promote well-being, as well as then responding to situations where students become unwell. We do know that financial pressures can be a source of huge stress for students, so we are constantly working with the Student Loans Company to make sure that the services that they offer to people are as good as they can be, and that there are no unnecessary delays that, perhaps, put a student under pressure or give students worries about their financial situation. And I would argue our Diamond reforms, which allow students access to a living wage—for some students, completely by a grant, for some students, a combination of grant and loan, with no expectation at all that your parents will contribute, which is not the case in other places where there is an expectation of parental contribution—that actually, hopefully, addresses some of those financial worries that some students may have. But I am aware that if people are waiting for their grant or people are waiting for their payments, that can be a source of stress. So, ensuring that we have good performance by the Student Loans Company is crucial.

Okay, thank you. And I'm sure the committee's very interested to hear the update on that. Are you able to give us any indication of timescale by which you'd expect HEFCW and the individual universities to actually have this work in place?

I'm not sure, but I will write to the committee and let you know. In fact, we can probably provide, from Universities Wales and from the work that's going on centrally, a list of proposals that are being undertaken.

Thank you very much. The next question is from Dawn Bowden.


Okay, thank you. And I'm sure the committee's very interested to hear the update on that. Are you able to give us any indication of timescale by which you'd expect HEFCW and the individual universities to actually have this work in place?

I'm not sure, but I will write to the committee and let you know. In fact, we can probably provide, from Universities Wales and from the work that's going on centrally, a list of proposals that are being undertaken.

Thank you very much. The next question is from Dawn Bowden.

Thank you, Chair. I wanted to ask you about the pay dispute, and I know that you're not the employer, because I know that's going to be the first answer—


I'm not sure, but I will write to the committee and let you know. In fact, we can probably provide, from Universities Wales and from the work that's going on centrally, a list of proposals that are being undertaken.

Thank you very much. The next question is from Dawn Bowden.

Thank you, Chair. I wanted to ask you about the pay dispute, and I know that you're not the employer, because I know that's going to be the first answer—

You're right, that is the first answer. [Laughter.] Well anticipated.


Thank you very much. The next question is from Dawn Bowden.

Thank you, Chair. I wanted to ask you about the pay dispute, and I know that you're not the employer, because I know that's going to be the first answer—

You're right, that is the first answer. [Laughter.] Well anticipated.

But we are in a stalemate here and you clearly have an interest in making sure that this dispute is resolved quickly in the interest of the students and the reputation of the colleges et cetera, et cetera. I can see how this dispute has arisen. When we've seen the teachers' pay settlement, we've seen FE settlements in England and Scotland higher than what's on the table here. And I am concerned, and I do think this is where the Welsh Government does have a role, because I am concerned that the employers seem to be using the funding issue as the reason not to have a reasonable settlement with staff. So, they've walked away from the table, they've said, 'One per cent, take it or leave it. Unless Welsh Government gives us any more money, that's the end of that.' And I'm really concerned about that, because this is potentially going to have a major impact on whether we can recruit and retain staff in FE colleges. And I look at the college in my constituency, Merthyr college—it's a tertiary college, they're providing A-level education across Merthyr and they're astounding results they've been getting as well. I'm coming round to the question in a moment. It's really: what more do you think you can do as a Government to try to get these parties back round the table and not allow the dispute to become a political football?


Thank you, Chair. I wanted to ask you about the pay dispute, and I know that you're not the employer, because I know that's going to be the first answer—

You're right, that is the first answer. [Laughter.] Well anticipated.

But we are in a stalemate here and you clearly have an interest in making sure that this dispute is resolved quickly in the interest of the students and the reputation of the colleges et cetera, et cetera. I can see how this dispute has arisen. When we've seen the teachers' pay settlement, we've seen FE settlements in England and Scotland higher than what's on the table here. And I am concerned, and I do think this is where the Welsh Government does have a role, because I am concerned that the employers seem to be using the funding issue as the reason not to have a reasonable settlement with staff. So, they've walked away from the table, they've said, 'One per cent, take it or leave it. Unless Welsh Government gives us any more money, that's the end of that.' And I'm really concerned about that, because this is potentially going to have a major impact on whether we can recruit and retain staff in FE colleges. And I look at the college in my constituency, Merthyr college—it's a tertiary college, they're providing A-level education across Merthyr and they're astounding results they've been getting as well. I'm coming round to the question in a moment. It's really: what more do you think you can do as a Government to try to get these parties back round the table and not allow the dispute to become a political football?

Thanks very much for that. I think, first of all, you're absolutely right—this is about ColegauCymru's negotiation, but we are keeping a close eye on the situation. I think it's probably worth emphasising that the reason this has come about, or part of the reason, is because you've seen that pay settlement in relation to teachers' pay and we've had the consequential. So, sixth-form teachers are happy. The people actually providing the same teaching course in a different institution, you can understand why they may say, 'Something needs to change here.' The problem here is that it's about that, actually, that falls to the Welsh Government. We don't have that. Or at least it falls to FE colleges to fund that, and it's up to them to come up with that proposal. We are keeping a close eye on things. I think it's fair to say that we'll wait until they get further along down the line, but we are extremely aware of the sensitivities of the situation.


You're right, that is the first answer. [Laughter.] Well anticipated.

But we are in a stalemate here and you clearly have an interest in making sure that this dispute is resolved quickly in the interest of the students and the reputation of the colleges et cetera, et cetera. I can see how this dispute has arisen. When we've seen the teachers' pay settlement, we've seen FE settlements in England and Scotland higher than what's on the table here. And I am concerned, and I do think this is where the Welsh Government does have a role, because I am concerned that the employers seem to be using the funding issue as the reason not to have a reasonable settlement with staff. So, they've walked away from the table, they've said, 'One per cent, take it or leave it. Unless Welsh Government gives us any more money, that's the end of that.' And I'm really concerned about that, because this is potentially going to have a major impact on whether we can recruit and retain staff in FE colleges. And I look at the college in my constituency, Merthyr college—it's a tertiary college, they're providing A-level education across Merthyr and they're astounding results they've been getting as well. I'm coming round to the question in a moment. It's really: what more do you think you can do as a Government to try to get these parties back round the table and not allow the dispute to become a political football?

Thanks very much for that. I think, first of all, you're absolutely right—this is about ColegauCymru's negotiation, but we are keeping a close eye on the situation. I think it's probably worth emphasising that the reason this has come about, or part of the reason, is because you've seen that pay settlement in relation to teachers' pay and we've had the consequential. So, sixth-form teachers are happy. The people actually providing the same teaching course in a different institution, you can understand why they may say, 'Something needs to change here.' The problem here is that it's about that, actually, that falls to the Welsh Government. We don't have that. Or at least it falls to FE colleges to fund that, and it's up to them to come up with that proposal. We are keeping a close eye on things. I think it's fair to say that we'll wait until they get further along down the line, but we are extremely aware of the sensitivities of the situation.

Thank you for that, Minister. When you say you're keeping a close eye on it, have you actually had conversations with ColegauCymru? Because I note what you just said there: 'We'll keep an eye on it and wait and see what's happening.' Well, all the unions are currently consulting. One has already balloted for industrial action. We could have the other unions also balloting for industrial action. I mean, this isn't something we want in the FE sector, clearly, so is there anything more proactive that Government could actually be doing to try to bring a resolution to this dispute?


But we are in a stalemate here and you clearly have an interest in making sure that this dispute is resolved quickly in the interest of the students and the reputation of the colleges et cetera, et cetera. I can see how this dispute has arisen. When we've seen the teachers' pay settlement, we've seen FE settlements in England and Scotland higher than what's on the table here. And I am concerned, and I do think this is where the Welsh Government does have a role, because I am concerned that the employers seem to be using the funding issue as the reason not to have a reasonable settlement with staff. So, they've walked away from the table, they've said, 'One per cent, take it or leave it. Unless Welsh Government gives us any more money, that's the end of that.' And I'm really concerned about that, because this is potentially going to have a major impact on whether we can recruit and retain staff in FE colleges. And I look at the college in my constituency, Merthyr college—it's a tertiary college, they're providing A-level education across Merthyr and they're astounding results they've been getting as well. I'm coming round to the question in a moment. It's really: what more do you think you can do as a Government to try to get these parties back round the table and not allow the dispute to become a political football?

Thanks very much for that. I think, first of all, you're absolutely right—this is about ColegauCymru's negotiation, but we are keeping a close eye on the situation. I think it's probably worth emphasising that the reason this has come about, or part of the reason, is because you've seen that pay settlement in relation to teachers' pay and we've had the consequential. So, sixth-form teachers are happy. The people actually providing the same teaching course in a different institution, you can understand why they may say, 'Something needs to change here.' The problem here is that it's about that, actually, that falls to the Welsh Government. We don't have that. Or at least it falls to FE colleges to fund that, and it's up to them to come up with that proposal. We are keeping a close eye on things. I think it's fair to say that we'll wait until they get further along down the line, but we are extremely aware of the sensitivities of the situation.

Thank you for that, Minister. When you say you're keeping a close eye on it, have you actually had conversations with ColegauCymru? Because I note what you just said there: 'We'll keep an eye on it and wait and see what's happening.' Well, all the unions are currently consulting. One has already balloted for industrial action. We could have the other unions also balloting for industrial action. I mean, this isn't something we want in the FE sector, clearly, so is there anything more proactive that Government could actually be doing to try to bring a resolution to this dispute?

Well, we are listening and speaking to ColegauCymru, and also we're aware of what the unions are saying as well. So, I think that's probably as far as we can go at this point. When they come to a conclusion, and when they come to us and say, 'Look, this is the consequence and this will finish'—at this point, we have no idea where that settlement is likely to fall.


Thanks very much for that. I think, first of all, you're absolutely right—this is about ColegauCymru's negotiation, but we are keeping a close eye on the situation. I think it's probably worth emphasising that the reason this has come about, or part of the reason, is because you've seen that pay settlement in relation to teachers' pay and we've had the consequential. So, sixth-form teachers are happy. The people actually providing the same teaching course in a different institution, you can understand why they may say, 'Something needs to change here.' The problem here is that it's about that, actually, that falls to the Welsh Government. We don't have that. Or at least it falls to FE colleges to fund that, and it's up to them to come up with that proposal. We are keeping a close eye on things. I think it's fair to say that we'll wait until they get further along down the line, but we are extremely aware of the sensitivities of the situation.

Thank you for that, Minister. When you say you're keeping a close eye on it, have you actually had conversations with ColegauCymru? Because I note what you just said there: 'We'll keep an eye on it and wait and see what's happening.' Well, all the unions are currently consulting. One has already balloted for industrial action. We could have the other unions also balloting for industrial action. I mean, this isn't something we want in the FE sector, clearly, so is there anything more proactive that Government could actually be doing to try to bring a resolution to this dispute?

Well, we are listening and speaking to ColegauCymru, and also we're aware of what the unions are saying as well. So, I think that's probably as far as we can go at this point. When they come to a conclusion, and when they come to us and say, 'Look, this is the consequence and this will finish'—at this point, we have no idea where that settlement is likely to fall.


Thank you for that, Minister. When you say you're keeping a close eye on it, have you actually had conversations with ColegauCymru? Because I note what you just said there: 'We'll keep an eye on it and wait and see what's happening.' Well, all the unions are currently consulting. One has already balloted for industrial action. We could have the other unions also balloting for industrial action. I mean, this isn't something we want in the FE sector, clearly, so is there anything more proactive that Government could actually be doing to try to bring a resolution to this dispute?

Well, we are listening and speaking to ColegauCymru, and also we're aware of what the unions are saying as well. So, I think that's probably as far as we can go at this point. When they come to a conclusion, and when they come to us and say, 'Look, this is the consequence and this will finish'—at this point, we have no idea where that settlement is likely to fall.


Well, we are listening and speaking to ColegauCymru, and also we're aware of what the unions are saying as well. So, I think that's probably as far as we can go at this point. When they come to a conclusion, and when they come to us and say, 'Look, this is the consequence and this will finish'—at this point, we have no idea where that settlement is likely to fall.

Yes, thank you. Yes, we wouldn't expect you to make an announcement on this, because it's happening outside of Government, but there is a principle here, isn't there, in terms of pay equality between schoolteachers and FE? So, would you not wish to see a situation where we do have greater equality in that respect?


Yes, thank you. Yes, we wouldn't expect you to make an announcement on this, because it's happening outside of Government, but there is a principle here, isn't there, in terms of pay equality between schoolteachers and FE? So, would you not wish to see a situation where we do have greater equality in that respect?

In relation to teaching, I think it's fair to say that we would wish to see pay equality in relation to teaching, yes.


Yes, thank you. Yes, we wouldn't expect you to make an announcement on this, because it's happening outside of Government, but there is a principle here, isn't there, in terms of pay equality between schoolteachers and FE? So, would you not wish to see a situation where we do have greater equality in that respect?

In relation to teaching, I think it's fair to say that we would wish to see pay equality in relation to teaching, yes.

Okay, thank you. You emphasise 'in relation to teaching'—my next question is that, of course, within FE establishments you have teaching staff and non-teaching staff, and if there was to be some sort of increase, then would you not expect all staff to have that?


Yes, thank you. Yes, we wouldn't expect you to make an announcement on this, because it's happening outside of Government, but there is a principle here, isn't there, in terms of pay equality between schoolteachers and FE? So, would you not wish to see a situation where we do have greater equality in that respect?

In relation to teaching, I think it's fair to say that we would wish to see pay equality in relation to teaching, yes.

Okay, thank you. You emphasise 'in relation to teaching'—my next question is that, of course, within FE establishments you have teaching staff and non-teaching staff, and if there was to be some sort of increase, then would you not expect all staff to have that?

Well, let's see—that's up to ColegauCymru to negotiate and to discuss, so let's see what the outcomes are.


In relation to teaching, I think it's fair to say that we would wish to see pay equality in relation to teaching, yes.

Okay, thank you. You emphasise 'in relation to teaching'—my next question is that, of course, within FE establishments you have teaching staff and non-teaching staff, and if there was to be some sort of increase, then would you not expect all staff to have that?

Well, let's see—that's up to ColegauCymru to negotiate and to discuss, so let's see what the outcomes are.

Because some of the non-teaching staff are the lowest paid, as well, aren't they? So, you know—.


Okay, thank you. You emphasise 'in relation to teaching'—my next question is that, of course, within FE establishments you have teaching staff and non-teaching staff, and if there was to be some sort of increase, then would you not expect all staff to have that?

Well, let's see—that's up to ColegauCymru to negotiate and to discuss, so let's see what the outcomes are.

Because some of the non-teaching staff are the lowest paid, as well, aren't they? So, you know—.

Let's wait for the outcome of the negotiations. I think we are very aware of the situation. ColegauCymru are in that negotiation. We're aware of what the requests are from the trade union members, and we'll wait to see what they come up with before responding formally.


Well, let's see—that's up to ColegauCymru to negotiate and to discuss, so let's see what the outcomes are.

Because some of the non-teaching staff are the lowest paid, as well, aren't they? So, you know—.

Let's wait for the outcome of the negotiations. I think we are very aware of the situation. ColegauCymru are in that negotiation. We're aware of what the requests are from the trade union members, and we'll wait to see what they come up with before responding formally.

Could I just briefly as well ask about pensions, because that's coming down the line, potentially, isn't it, and the impact that's going to have on FE? One college was saying it will cost them £1 million if it happens next year. Are you thinking about any steps that you could take to support them, potentially, because obviously this is coming down the line, really, isn't it?


Because some of the non-teaching staff are the lowest paid, as well, aren't they? So, you know—.

Let's wait for the outcome of the negotiations. I think we are very aware of the situation. ColegauCymru are in that negotiation. We're aware of what the requests are from the trade union members, and we'll wait to see what they come up with before responding formally.

Could I just briefly as well ask about pensions, because that's coming down the line, potentially, isn't it, and the impact that's going to have on FE? One college was saying it will cost them £1 million if it happens next year. Are you thinking about any steps that you could take to support them, potentially, because obviously this is coming down the line, really, isn't it?

Well, I think, already, we've got the situation in relation to teachers, and again what we've seen is the consequential and the UK Government honouring that. Again, what we don't have, necessarily, is that money coming down from the UK Government for us to be able to support it in the way that we might like to. It's early days on this, but it's something, again, we're keeping an eye on.


Let's wait for the outcome of the negotiations. I think we are very aware of the situation. ColegauCymru are in that negotiation. We're aware of what the requests are from the trade union members, and we'll wait to see what they come up with before responding formally.

Could I just briefly as well ask about pensions, because that's coming down the line, potentially, isn't it, and the impact that's going to have on FE? One college was saying it will cost them £1 million if it happens next year. Are you thinking about any steps that you could take to support them, potentially, because obviously this is coming down the line, really, isn't it?

Well, I think, already, we've got the situation in relation to teachers, and again what we've seen is the consequential and the UK Government honouring that. Again, what we don't have, necessarily, is that money coming down from the UK Government for us to be able to support it in the way that we might like to. It's early days on this, but it's something, again, we're keeping an eye on.

The fundamental question, really, is: if the money doesn't come down the line from Westminster, are you in a position to underwrite that?


Could I just briefly as well ask about pensions, because that's coming down the line, potentially, isn't it, and the impact that's going to have on FE? One college was saying it will cost them £1 million if it happens next year. Are you thinking about any steps that you could take to support them, potentially, because obviously this is coming down the line, really, isn't it?

Well, I think, already, we've got the situation in relation to teachers, and again what we've seen is the consequential and the UK Government honouring that. Again, what we don't have, necessarily, is that money coming down from the UK Government for us to be able to support it in the way that we might like to. It's early days on this, but it's something, again, we're keeping an eye on.

The fundamental question, really, is: if the money doesn't come down the line from Westminster, are you in a position to underwrite that?

Well, we'll wait until we see that situation arising, but we're aware that that is an issue that we're going to have to deal with in future.


Well, I think, already, we've got the situation in relation to teachers, and again what we've seen is the consequential and the UK Government honouring that. Again, what we don't have, necessarily, is that money coming down from the UK Government for us to be able to support it in the way that we might like to. It's early days on this, but it's something, again, we're keeping an eye on.

The fundamental question, really, is: if the money doesn't come down the line from Westminster, are you in a position to underwrite that?

Well, we'll wait until we see that situation arising, but we're aware that that is an issue that we're going to have to deal with in future.


The fundamental question, really, is: if the money doesn't come down the line from Westminster, are you in a position to underwrite that?

Well, we'll wait until we see that situation arising, but we're aware that that is an issue that we're going to have to deal with in future.

In relation to the pay dispute, it's the committee's understanding that ColegauCymru's position is that, in order to meet a pay award that is commensurate with schoolteachers, an additional 3.5 per cent or £10.1 million is needed. Are you aware of that being their position?


Well, we'll wait until we see that situation arising, but we're aware that that is an issue that we're going to have to deal with in future.

In relation to the pay dispute, it's the committee's understanding that ColegauCymru's position is that, in order to meet a pay award that is commensurate with schoolteachers, an additional 3.5 per cent or £10.1 million is needed. Are you aware of that being their position?


In relation to the pay dispute, it's the committee's understanding that ColegauCymru's position is that, in order to meet a pay award that is commensurate with schoolteachers, an additional 3.5 per cent or £10.1 million is needed. Are you aware of that being their position?


OK , so uh  had some interesting mail from uh Dan Ellis. Actually , I think he  he  redirected it to everybody also so uh  the PDA mikes uh have a big bunch of energy at  at uh five hertz uh where this came up was that uh I was showing off these wave forms that we have on the web and  and uh  I just sort of hadn't noticed this , but that  the major , major component in the wave  in the second wave form in that pair of wave forms is actually the air conditioner.


OK , so uh  had some interesting mail from uh Dan Ellis. Actually , I think he  he  redirected it to everybody also so uh  the PDA mikes uh have a big bunch of energy at  at uh five hertz uh where this came up was that uh I was showing off these wave forms that we have on the web and  and uh  I just sort of hadn't noticed this , but that  the major , major component in the wave  in the second wave form in that pair of wave forms is actually the air conditioner.

So. So. I   I have to be more careful about using that as a  as a   as a good illustration , uh , in fact it 's not , of uh   of the effects of room reverberation. It is isn't a bad illustration of the effects of uh room noise.  on  on uh some mikes uh but So. And then we had this other discussion about um  whether this affects the dynamic range , cuz I know , although we start off with thirty two bits , you end up with uh sixteen bits and  you know , are we getting hurt there ? But uh Dan is pretty confident that we 're not , that  that quantization error is not  is still not a significant  factor there. So. So there was a question of whether we should change things here , whether we should  change a capacitor on the input box for that or whether we should


OK , so uh  had some interesting mail from uh Dan Ellis. Actually , I think he  he  redirected it to everybody also so uh  the PDA mikes uh have a big bunch of energy at  at uh five hertz uh where this came up was that uh I was showing off these wave forms that we have on the web and  and uh  I just sort of hadn't noticed this , but that  the major , major component in the wave  in the second wave form in that pair of wave forms is actually the air conditioner.

So. So. I   I have to be more careful about using that as a  as a   as a good illustration , uh , in fact it 's not , of uh   of the effects of room reverberation. It is isn't a bad illustration of the effects of uh room noise.  on  on uh some mikes uh but So. And then we had this other discussion about um  whether this affects the dynamic range , cuz I know , although we start off with thirty two bits , you end up with uh sixteen bits and  you know , are we getting hurt there ? But uh Dan is pretty confident that we 're not , that  that quantization error is not  is still not a significant  factor there. So. So there was a question of whether we should change things here , whether we should  change a capacitor on the input box for that or whether we should

Yeah , he suggested a smaller capacitor , right ?


So. So. I   I have to be more careful about using that as a  as a   as a good illustration , uh , in fact it 's not , of uh   of the effects of room reverberation. It is isn't a bad illustration of the effects of uh room noise.  on  on uh some mikes uh but So. And then we had this other discussion about um  whether this affects the dynamic range , cuz I know , although we start off with thirty two bits , you end up with uh sixteen bits and  you know , are we getting hurt there ? But uh Dan is pretty confident that we 're not , that  that quantization error is not  is still not a significant  factor there. So. So there was a question of whether we should change things here , whether we should  change a capacitor on the input box for that or whether we should

Yeah , he suggested a smaller capacitor , right ?

Right. But then I had some other uh thing discussions with him


Yeah , he suggested a smaller capacitor , right ?

Right. But then I had some other uh thing discussions with him

and the feeling was  once we start monk monkeying with that , uh , many other problems could ha happen. And additionally we  we already have a lot of data that 's been collected with that , so.


Right. But then I had some other uh thing discussions with him

and the feeling was  once we start monk monkeying with that , uh , many other problems could ha happen. And additionally we  we already have a lot of data that 's been collected with that , so.


and the feeling was  once we start monk monkeying with that , uh , many other problems could ha happen. And additionally we  we already have a lot of data that 's been collected with that , so.

A simple thing to do is he  he  he has a  I forget if it  this was in that mail or in the following mail , but he has a  a simple filter , a digital filter that he suggested. We just run over the data before we deal with it.


A simple thing to do is he  he  he has a  I forget if it  this was in that mail or in the following mail , but he has a  a simple filter , a digital filter that he suggested. We just run over the data before we deal with it.

um The other thing that I don't know the answer to , but when people are using Feacalc here , uh whether they 're using it with the high - pass filter option or not. And I don't know if anybody knows.


um The other thing that I don't know the answer to , but when people are using Feacalc here , uh whether they 're using it with the high - pass filter option or not. And I don't know if anybody knows.

But. Yeah. So when we 're doing all these things using our software there is  um if it 's  if it 's based on the RASTA - PLP program ,  which does both PLP and RASTA - PLP  um then  uh there is an option there which then comes up through to Feacalc which  um allows you to do high - pass filtering and in general we like to do that , because of things like this and  it 's  it 's pretty  it 's not a very severe filter. Doesn't affect speech frequencies , even pretty low speech frequencies , at all , but it 's


um The other thing that I don't know the answer to , but when people are using Feacalc here , uh whether they 're using it with the high - pass filter option or not. And I don't know if anybody knows.

But. Yeah. So when we 're doing all these things using our software there is  um if it 's  if it 's based on the RASTA - PLP program ,  which does both PLP and RASTA - PLP  um then  uh there is an option there which then comes up through to Feacalc which  um allows you to do high - pass filtering and in general we like to do that , because of things like this and  it 's  it 's pretty  it 's not a very severe filter. Doesn't affect speech frequencies , even pretty low speech frequencies , at all , but it 's

What 's the  cut - off frequency it used ?


But. Yeah. So when we 're doing all these things using our software there is  um if it 's  if it 's based on the RASTA - PLP program ,  which does both PLP and RASTA - PLP  um then  uh there is an option there which then comes up through to Feacalc which  um allows you to do high - pass filtering and in general we like to do that , because of things like this and  it 's  it 's pretty  it 's not a very severe filter. Doesn't affect speech frequencies , even pretty low speech frequencies , at all , but it 's

What 's the  cut - off frequency it used ?

Oh. I don't know I wrote this a while ago


What 's the  cut - off frequency it used ?

Oh. I don't know I wrote this a while ago


Oh. I don't know I wrote this a while ago


Yeah. I mean I think there 's some effect above twenty but it 's  it 's  it 's  it 's mild. So , I mean it probably  there 's probably some effect up to a hundred hertz or something but it 's  it 's pretty mild. I don't know in the  in the STRUT implementation of the stuff is there a high - pass filter or a pre pre - emphasis or something in the


Yeah. I mean I think there 's some effect above twenty but it 's  it 's  it 's  it 's mild. So , I mean it probably  there 's probably some effect up to a hundred hertz or something but it 's  it 's pretty mild. I don't know in the  in the STRUT implementation of the stuff is there a high - pass filter or a pre pre - emphasis or something in the

Uh. I think we use a pre - emphasis. Yeah. Yeah.


Yeah. I mean I think there 's some effect above twenty but it 's  it 's  it 's  it 's mild. So , I mean it probably  there 's probably some effect up to a hundred hertz or something but it 's  it 's pretty mild. I don't know in the  in the STRUT implementation of the stuff is there a high - pass filter or a pre pre - emphasis or something in the

Uh. I think we use a pre - emphasis. Yeah. Yeah.

So. We  we  we want to go and check that in i for anything that we 're going to use the P D A mike for.  uh He says that there 's a pretty good roll off in the PZM mikes so  we don't need  need to worry about them one way or the other but if we do make use of the cheap mikes ,  uh we want to be sure to do that  that filtering before we  process it. And then again if it 's uh depending on the option that the  our  our software is being run with , it 's  it 's quite possible that 's already being taken care of. uh But I also have to pick a different picture to show the effects of reverberation. uh


Yeah. I mean I think there 's some effect above twenty but it 's  it 's  it 's  it 's mild. So , I mean it probably  there 's probably some effect up to a hundred hertz or something but it 's  it 's pretty mild. I don't know in the  in the STRUT implementation of the stuff is there a high - pass filter or a pre pre - emphasis or something in the

Uh. I think we use a pre - emphasis. Yeah. Yeah.

So. We  we  we want to go and check that in i for anything that we 're going to use the P D A mike for.  uh He says that there 's a pretty good roll off in the PZM mikes so  we don't need  need to worry about them one way or the other but if we do make use of the cheap mikes ,  uh we want to be sure to do that  that filtering before we  process it. And then again if it 's uh depending on the option that the  our  our software is being run with , it 's  it 's quite possible that 's already being taken care of. uh But I also have to pick a different picture to show the effects of reverberation. uh

Did somebody notice it during your talk ?


Uh. I think we use a pre - emphasis. Yeah. Yeah.

So. We  we  we want to go and check that in i for anything that we 're going to use the P D A mike for.  uh He says that there 's a pretty good roll off in the PZM mikes so  we don't need  need to worry about them one way or the other but if we do make use of the cheap mikes ,  uh we want to be sure to do that  that filtering before we  process it. And then again if it 's uh depending on the option that the  our  our software is being run with , it 's  it 's quite possible that 's already being taken care of. uh But I also have to pick a different picture to show the effects of reverberation. uh

Did somebody notice it during your talk ?


So. We  we  we want to go and check that in i for anything that we 're going to use the P D A mike for.  uh He says that there 's a pretty good roll off in the PZM mikes so  we don't need  need to worry about them one way or the other but if we do make use of the cheap mikes ,  uh we want to be sure to do that  that filtering before we  process it. And then again if it 's uh depending on the option that the  our  our software is being run with , it 's  it 's quite possible that 's already being taken care of. uh But I also have to pick a different picture to show the effects of reverberation. uh

Did somebody notice it during your talk ?


Did somebody notice it during your talk ?

Well. uh Well. If they made output they were  they were , you know  they were nice.


Well. uh Well. If they made output they were  they were , you know  they were nice.


Well. uh Well. If they made output they were  they were , you know  they were nice.

But.  I mean the thing is it was since I was talking about reverberation and showing this thing that was noise , it wasn't a good match , but it certainly was still uh an indication of the fact that you get noise with distant mikes. uh It 's just not a great example because not only isn't it reverberation but it 's a noise that we definitely know what to do.


But.  I mean the thing is it was since I was talking about reverberation and showing this thing that was noise , it wasn't a good match , but it certainly was still uh an indication of the fact that you get noise with distant mikes. uh It 's just not a great example because not only isn't it reverberation but it 's a noise that we definitely know what to do.

So , I mean , it doesn't take deep   a new  bold new methods to get rid of uh five hertz noise , so.


So , I mean , it doesn't take deep   a new  bold new methods to get rid of uh five hertz noise , so.

um  uh But. So it was  it was a bad example in that way , but it 's  it still is  it 's the real thing that we did get out of the microphone at distance , so it wasn't  it w it w wasn't wrong it was inappropriate. So.  So uh , but uh , Yeah , someone noticed it later pointed it out to me , and I went " oh , man. Why didn't I notice that ? "


um  uh But. So it was  it was a bad example in that way , but it 's  it still is  it 's the real thing that we did get out of the microphone at distance , so it wasn't  it w it w wasn't wrong it was inappropriate. So.  So uh , but uh , Yeah , someone noticed it later pointed it out to me , and I went " oh , man. Why didn't I notice that ? "

um. So.  um So I think we 'll change our  our picture on the web , when we 're @ @. One of the things I was  I mean , I was trying to think about what  what 's the best  way to show the difference an and I had a couple of thoughts one was ,  that spectrogram that we show  is O K , but the thing is  the eyes uh and the  the brain behind them are so good at picking out patterns  from  from noise  that in first glance you look at them it doesn't seem like it 's that bad uh because there 's many features that are still preserved. So one thing to do might be to just take a piece of the spec uh of the spectrogram where you can see  that something looks different , an and blow it up , and have that be the part that 's  just to show as well. You know.


um. So.  um So I think we 'll change our  our picture on the web , when we 're @ @. One of the things I was  I mean , I was trying to think about what  what 's the best  way to show the difference an and I had a couple of thoughts one was ,  that spectrogram that we show  is O K , but the thing is  the eyes uh and the  the brain behind them are so good at picking out patterns  from  from noise  that in first glance you look at them it doesn't seem like it 's that bad uh because there 's many features that are still preserved. So one thing to do might be to just take a piece of the spec uh of the spectrogram where you can see  that something looks different , an and blow it up , and have that be the part that 's  just to show as well. You know.

i i Some things are going to be hurt. um  Another , I was thinking of was um  taking some spectral slices , like uh  like we look at with the recognizer , and look at the spectrum or cepstrum that you get out of there , and the  the uh , um ,  the reverberation uh does make it  does change that. And so maybe  maybe that would be more obvious.


i i Some things are going to be hurt. um  Another , I was thinking of was um  taking some spectral slices , like uh  like we look at with the recognizer , and look at the spectrum or cepstrum that you get out of there , and the  the uh , um ,  the reverberation uh does make it  does change that. And so maybe  maybe that would be more obvious.


Well , I mean um all the recognizers look at frames. So they  they look at


So it 's , yeah , at one point in time or uh twenty  over twenty milliseconds or something ,  you have a spectrum or a cepstrum.


You could just  you could just throw up , you know , uh  the uh  some MFCC feature vectors. You know , one from one , one from the other , and then , you know , you can look and see how different the numbers are.


You could just  you could just throw up , you know , uh  the uh  some MFCC feature vectors. You know , one from one , one from the other , and then , you know , you can look and see how different the numbers are.

Right. Well , that 's why I saying either   Well , either spectrum or cepstrum


You could just  you could just throw up , you know , uh  the uh  some MFCC feature vectors. You know , one from one , one from the other , and then , you know , you can look and see how different the numbers are.

Right. Well , that 's why I saying either   Well , either spectrum or cepstrum

but   but I think the thing is you wanna


Right. Well , that 's why I saying either   Well , either spectrum or cepstrum

but   but I think the thing is you wanna

I don't mean a graph. I mean the actual numbers.


but   but I think the thing is you wanna

I don't mean a graph. I mean the actual numbers.

Oh. I see. Oh. That would be lovely , yeah.


but   but I think the thing is you wanna

I don't mean a graph. I mean the actual numbers.

Oh. I see. Oh. That would be lovely , yeah.

Yeah. " See how different these  sequences of numbers are ? "


I don't mean a graph. I mean the actual numbers.

Oh. I see. Oh. That would be lovely , yeah.

Yeah. " See how different these  sequences of numbers are ? "

Yeah. Or I could just add them up and get a different total.


Oh. I see. Oh. That would be lovely , yeah.

Yeah. " See how different these  sequences of numbers are ? "

Yeah. Or I could just add them up and get a different total.


Yeah. " See how different these  sequences of numbers are ? "

Yeah. Or I could just add them up and get a different total.

OK. Uh. What else  wh what 's  what else is going on ?


Yeah. Or I could just add them up and get a different total.

OK. Uh. What else  wh what 's  what else is going on ?

Uh , yeah. Yeah , at first I had a remark why  I am wondering why the PDA is always so far. I mean we are always meeting at the  beginning of the table and  the PDA 's there.


OK. Uh. What else  wh what 's  what else is going on ?

Uh , yeah. Yeah , at first I had a remark why  I am wondering why the PDA is always so far. I mean we are always meeting at the  beginning of the table and  the PDA 's there.

Uh. I guess cuz we haven't wanted to move it. We  we could   we could move us ,


Uh , yeah. Yeah , at first I had a remark why  I am wondering why the PDA is always so far. I mean we are always meeting at the  beginning of the table and  the PDA 's there.

Uh. I guess cuz we haven't wanted to move it. We  we could   we could move us ,


Uh. I guess cuz we haven't wanted to move it. We  we could   we could move us ,


Well , anyway. Um. Yeah , so. Uh. Since the last meeting we 've  we 've tried to put together um  the clean low - pass um downsampling , upsampling , I mean , Uh the new filter that 's replacing the LDA filters , and also  the um delay issue so that  We considered th the  the delay issue on the  for the on - line normalization. Mmm. So we 've put together all this and then we have results that are not um   very impressive. Well , there is no  real improvement.


Well , anyway. Um. Yeah , so. Uh. Since the last meeting we 've  we 've tried to put together um  the clean low - pass um downsampling , upsampling , I mean , Uh the new filter that 's replacing the LDA filters , and also  the um delay issue so that  We considered th the  the delay issue on the  for the on - line normalization. Mmm. So we 've put together all this and then we have results that are not um   very impressive. Well , there is no  real improvement.

But it 's not wer worse and it 's better  better latency ,


But it 's not wer worse and it 's better  better latency ,

Yeah. Yeah. Well. Actually it 's better. It seems better when we look at the mismatched case but  I think we are like  like cheated here by the  th this problem that  uh in some cases when you modify slight  slightly modify the initial condition you end up  completely somewhere air somewhere else in the  in the space ,  the parameters.


Yeah. Yeah. Well. Actually it 's better. It seems better when we look at the mismatched case but  I think we are like  like cheated here by the  th this problem that  uh in some cases when you modify slight  slightly modify the initial condition you end up  completely somewhere air somewhere else in the  in the space ,  the parameters.


Yeah. Yeah. Well. Actually it 's better. It seems better when we look at the mismatched case but  I think we are like  like cheated here by the  th this problem that  uh in some cases when you modify slight  slightly modify the initial condition you end up  completely somewhere air somewhere else in the  in the space ,  the parameters.

So. Well. The other system are for instance. For Italian is at seventy - eight  percent recognition rate on the mismatch , and this new system has eighty - nine. But I don't think it indicates something , really. I don't  I don't think it means that the new system is more robust


So. Well. The other system are for instance. For Italian is at seventy - eight  percent recognition rate on the mismatch , and this new system has eighty - nine. But I don't think it indicates something , really. I don't  I don't think it means that the new system is more robust


So. Well. The other system are for instance. For Italian is at seventy - eight  percent recognition rate on the mismatch , and this new system has eighty - nine. But I don't think it indicates something , really. I don't  I don't think it means that the new system is more robust

Well , the test would be if you then tried it on one of the other test sets , if  if it was


Well , the test would be if you then tried it on one of the other test sets , if  if it was


but I mean  from this se seventy - eight um percent recognition rate system ,  I could change the transition probabilities for the  the first HMM and  it will end up to eighty - nine also.


but I mean  from this se seventy - eight um percent recognition rate system ,  I could change the transition probabilities for the  the first HMM and  it will end up to eighty - nine also.

By using point five instead of point six , point four  as in the  the HTK script.


By using point five instead of point six , point four  as in the  the HTK script.


By using point five instead of point six , point four  as in the  the HTK script.

Yeah. Yeah I looked at um   looked at the results when Stephane did that


Yeah. Yeah I looked at um   looked at the results when Stephane did that


Yeah. Yeah I looked at um   looked at the results when Stephane did that

and it 's  it 's really wo really happens.


and it 's  it 's really wo really happens.

I mean th the only difference is you change the self - loop transition probability by a tenth of a percent


I mean th the only difference is you change the self - loop transition probability by a tenth of a percent


I mean th the only difference is you change the self - loop transition probability by a tenth of a percent

and it causes ten percent difference in the word error rate.


and it causes ten percent difference in the word error rate.


f for point  from  You change at point one


f for point  from  You change at point one

and n not tenth of a percent , one tenth ,


and n not tenth of a percent , one tenth ,


and n not tenth of a percent , one tenth ,

alright ? Um so from point five  so from point six to point five and you get ten percent better.


alright ? Um so from point five  so from point six to point five and you get ten percent better.


alright ? Um so from point five  so from point six to point five and you get ten percent better.

And it 's   I think it 's what you basically hypothesized in the last meeting  about uh it just being very


And it 's   I think it 's what you basically hypothesized in the last meeting  about uh it just being very

and I think you mentioned this in your email too  it 's just very um


and I think you mentioned this in your email too  it 's just very um

you know get stuck in some local minimum and this thing throws you out of it I guess.


you know get stuck in some local minimum and this thing throws you out of it I guess.

Well , what 's  what are  according to the rules what  what are we supposed to do about the transition probabilities ? Are they supposed to be point five or point six ?


you know get stuck in some local minimum and this thing throws you out of it I guess.

Well , what 's  what are  according to the rules what  what are we supposed to do about the transition probabilities ? Are they supposed to be point five or point six ?

I think you 're not allowed to  Yeah. That 's supposed to be point six , for the self - loop.


Well , what 's  what are  according to the rules what  what are we supposed to do about the transition probabilities ? Are they supposed to be point five or point six ?

I think you 're not allowed to  Yeah. That 's supposed to be point six , for the self - loop.


I think you 're not allowed to  Yeah. That 's supposed to be point six , for the self - loop.

Yeah. But changing it to point five I think is  which gives you much better results , but that 's  not allowed.


Yeah. But changing it to point five I think is  which gives you much better results , but that 's  not allowed.


Yeah. But changing it to point five I think is  which gives you much better results , but that 's  not allowed.

Yeah , but even if you use point five , I 'm not sure it will always give you the better results


Yeah , but even if you use point five , I 'm not sure it will always give you the better results


Yeah , but even if you use point five , I 'm not sure it will always give you the better results

Right. We only tested it on the  the medium mismatch ,


Right. We only tested it on the  the medium mismatch ,


Right. We only tested it on the  the medium mismatch ,

right ? You said on the other cases you didn't notice


Right. We only tested it on the  the medium mismatch ,

right ? You said on the other cases you didn't notice

Yeah. But. I think , yeah. I think the reason is , yeah , I not I  it was in my mail I think also ,  is the fact that the mismatch is trained only on the far microphone. Well , in  for the mismatched case everything is um using the far microphone training and testing , whereas for the highly mismatched , training is done on the close microphone so  it 's  it 's clean speech basically so you don't have this problem of local minima probably and for the well - match , it 's a mix of close microphone and distant microphone and  Well.


right ? You said on the other cases you didn't notice

Yeah. But. I think , yeah. I think the reason is , yeah , I not I  it was in my mail I think also ,  is the fact that the mismatch is trained only on the far microphone. Well , in  for the mismatched case everything is um using the far microphone training and testing , whereas for the highly mismatched , training is done on the close microphone so  it 's  it 's clean speech basically so you don't have this problem of local minima probably and for the well - match , it 's a mix of close microphone and distant microphone and  Well.


right ? You said on the other cases you didn't notice

Yeah. But. I think , yeah. I think the reason is , yeah , I not I  it was in my mail I think also ,  is the fact that the mismatch is trained only on the far microphone. Well , in  for the mismatched case everything is um using the far microphone training and testing , whereas for the highly mismatched , training is done on the close microphone so  it 's  it 's clean speech basically so you don't have this problem of local minima probably and for the well - match , it 's a mix of close microphone and distant microphone and  Well.

So th I think the mismatch is the more difficult for the training part.


Yeah. But. I think , yeah. I think the reason is , yeah , I not I  it was in my mail I think also ,  is the fact that the mismatch is trained only on the far microphone. Well , in  for the mismatched case everything is um using the far microphone training and testing , whereas for the highly mismatched , training is done on the close microphone so  it 's  it 's clean speech basically so you don't have this problem of local minima probably and for the well - match , it 's a mix of close microphone and distant microphone and  Well.

So th I think the mismatch is the more difficult for the training part.

Somebody , I think it was Morgan , suggested at the last meeting that I actually count to see  how many parameters and how many frames.


So th I think the mismatch is the more difficult for the training part.

Somebody , I think it was Morgan , suggested at the last meeting that I actually count to see  how many parameters and how many frames.


Somebody , I think it was Morgan , suggested at the last meeting that I actually count to see  how many parameters and how many frames.

And there are uh almost one point eight million frames of training data and less than forty thousand parameters in the baseline system.


And there are uh almost one point eight million frames of training data and less than forty thousand parameters in the baseline system.


And there are uh almost one point eight million frames of training data and less than forty thousand parameters in the baseline system.

So it 's very , very few parameters compared to how much training data.


So it 's very , very few parameters compared to how much training data.


So it 's very , very few parameters compared to how much training data.

So. And that  that says that we could have lots more parameters actually.


So. And that  that says that we could have lots more parameters actually.


So. And that  that says that we could have lots more parameters actually.

I did one quick experiment just to make sure I had everything worked out and I just   uh f for most of the um  For  for all of the digit models , they end up at three mixtures per state. And so I just did a quick experiment , where I changed it so it went to four and um  it it  it didn't have a r any significant effect at the uh medium mismatch and high mismatch cases and it had   it was just barely significant for the well - matched better. Uh so I 'm r gonna run that again but  um with many more uh mixtures per state.


I did one quick experiment just to make sure I had everything worked out and I just   uh f for most of the um  For  for all of the digit models , they end up at three mixtures per state. And so I just did a quick experiment , where I changed it so it went to four and um  it it  it didn't have a r any significant effect at the uh medium mismatch and high mismatch cases and it had   it was just barely significant for the well - matched better. Uh so I 'm r gonna run that again but  um with many more uh mixtures per state.

Yeah. Cuz at forty thou I mean you could you could have uh  Yeah , easily four times as many  parameters.


I did one quick experiment just to make sure I had everything worked out and I just   uh f for most of the um  For  for all of the digit models , they end up at three mixtures per state. And so I just did a quick experiment , where I changed it so it went to four and um  it it  it didn't have a r any significant effect at the uh medium mismatch and high mismatch cases and it had   it was just barely significant for the well - matched better. Uh so I 'm r gonna run that again but  um with many more uh mixtures per state.

Yeah. Cuz at forty thou I mean you could you could have uh  Yeah , easily four times as many  parameters.

Mm - hmm. And I think also  just seeing what we saw  uh in terms of the expected duration of the silence model ? when we did this tweaking of the self - loop ? The silence model expected duration was really different.


Yeah. Cuz at forty thou I mean you could you could have uh  Yeah , easily four times as many  parameters.

Mm - hmm. And I think also  just seeing what we saw  uh in terms of the expected duration of the silence model ? when we did this tweaking of the self - loop ? The silence model expected duration was really different.

And so in the case where  um  it had a better score , the silence model expected duration was much longer.


Mm - hmm. And I think also  just seeing what we saw  uh in terms of the expected duration of the silence model ? when we did this tweaking of the self - loop ? The silence model expected duration was really different.

And so in the case where  um  it had a better score , the silence model expected duration was much longer.


And so in the case where  um  it had a better score , the silence model expected duration was much longer.

So it was like   it was a better match. I think  you know if we make a better silence model I think that will help a lot too um for a lot of these cases so but one one thing I  I wanted to check out before I increased the um  number of mixtures per state was  uh  in their  default training script they do an initial set of three re - estimations and then they built the silence model and then they do seven iterations then the add mixtures and they do another seven then they add mixtures then they do a final set of seven and they quit. Seven seems like a lot to me and it also makes the experiments go take a really long time I mean to do one turn - around of the well matched case takes like a day.


So it was like   it was a better match. I think  you know if we make a better silence model I think that will help a lot too um for a lot of these cases so but one one thing I  I wanted to check out before I increased the um  number of mixtures per state was  uh  in their  default training script they do an initial set of three re - estimations and then they built the silence model and then they do seven iterations then the add mixtures and they do another seven then they add mixtures then they do a final set of seven and they quit. Seven seems like a lot to me and it also makes the experiments go take a really long time I mean to do one turn - around of the well matched case takes like a day.

And so  you know in trying to run these experiments I notice , you know , it 's difficult to find machines , you know , compute the run on. And so one of the things I did was I compiled HTK for the Linux  machines


And so  you know in trying to run these experiments I notice , you know , it 's difficult to find machines , you know , compute the run on. And so one of the things I did was I compiled HTK for the Linux  machines

cuz we have this one from IBM that 's got like five processors in it ?


cuz we have this one from IBM that 's got like five processors in it ?

and so now I 'm  you can run stuff on that and that really helps a lot because now we 've got  you know , extra machines that we can use for compute. And if  I 'm do running an experiment right now where I 'm changing the number of iterations ?  from seven to three ?


and so now I 'm  you can run stuff on that and that really helps a lot because now we 've got  you know , extra machines that we can use for compute. And if  I 'm do running an experiment right now where I 'm changing the number of iterations ?  from seven to three ?


and so now I 'm  you can run stuff on that and that really helps a lot because now we 've got  you know , extra machines that we can use for compute. And if  I 'm do running an experiment right now where I 'm changing the number of iterations ?  from seven to three ?

just to see how it affects the baseline system. And so if we can get away with just doing three , we can do  many more experiments more quickly. And if it 's not a  a huge difference from running with seven iterations ,  um , you know , we should be able to get a lot more experiments done.


just to see how it affects the baseline system. And so if we can get away with just doing three , we can do  many more experiments more quickly. And if it 's not a  a huge difference from running with seven iterations ,  um , you know , we should be able to get a lot more experiments done.


just to see how it affects the baseline system. And so if we can get away with just doing three , we can do  many more experiments more quickly. And if it 's not a  a huge difference from running with seven iterations ,  um , you know , we should be able to get a lot more experiments done.

And so. I 'll let you know what  what happens with that. But if we can  you know , run all of these back - ends f with many fewer iterations and  on Linux boxes we should be able to get a lot more experimenting done.


And so. I 'll let you know what  what happens with that. But if we can  you know , run all of these back - ends f with many fewer iterations and  on Linux boxes we should be able to get a lot more experimenting done.

So. So I wanted to experiment with cutting down the number of iterations before I  increased the number of Gaussians.


And so. I 'll let you know what  what happens with that. But if we can  you know , run all of these back - ends f with many fewer iterations and  on Linux boxes we should be able to get a lot more experimenting done.

So. So I wanted to experiment with cutting down the number of iterations before I  increased the number of Gaussians.

Right. Sorry. So um , how 's it going on the


So. So I wanted to experiment with cutting down the number of iterations before I  increased the number of Gaussians.

Right. Sorry. So um , how 's it going on the


So. So I wanted to experiment with cutting down the number of iterations before I  increased the number of Gaussians.

Right. Sorry. So um , how 's it going on the

So. You  you did some things. They didn't improve things in a way that convinced you you 'd substantially improved anything.


Right. Sorry. So um , how 's it going on the

So. You  you did some things. They didn't improve things in a way that convinced you you 'd substantially improved anything.


So. You  you did some things. They didn't improve things in a way that convinced you you 'd substantially improved anything.

But they 're not making things worse and we have reduced latency , right ?


So. You  you did some things. They didn't improve things in a way that convinced you you 'd substantially improved anything.

But they 're not making things worse and we have reduced latency , right ?

Yeah. But actually  um actually it seems to do a little bit worse for the well - matched case and we just noticed that  Yeah , actually the way the final score is computed is quite funny. It 's not a mean of word error rate. It 's not a weighted mean of word error rate , it 's a weighted mean of improvements.


But they 're not making things worse and we have reduced latency , right ?

Yeah. But actually  um actually it seems to do a little bit worse for the well - matched case and we just noticed that  Yeah , actually the way the final score is computed is quite funny. It 's not a mean of word error rate. It 's not a weighted mean of word error rate , it 's a weighted mean of improvements.


But they 're not making things worse and we have reduced latency , right ?

Yeah. But actually  um actually it seems to do a little bit worse for the well - matched case and we just noticed that  Yeah , actually the way the final score is computed is quite funny. It 's not a mean of word error rate. It 's not a weighted mean of word error rate , it 's a weighted mean of improvements.

So. Which means that  actually the weight on the well - matched is  Well I well what what  What happened is that if you have a small improvement or a small if on the well - matched case  it will have uh huge influence on the improvement compared to the reference because the reference system is  is  is quite good for  for the well - ma well - matched case also.


Yeah. But actually  um actually it seems to do a little bit worse for the well - matched case and we just noticed that  Yeah , actually the way the final score is computed is quite funny. It 's not a mean of word error rate. It 's not a weighted mean of word error rate , it 's a weighted mean of improvements.

So. Which means that  actually the weight on the well - matched is  Well I well what what  What happened is that if you have a small improvement or a small if on the well - matched case  it will have uh huge influence on the improvement compared to the reference because the reference system is  is  is quite good for  for the well - ma well - matched case also.

So it  it weights the improvement on the well - matched case really heavily compared to the improvement on the other cases ?


So. Which means that  actually the weight on the well - matched is  Well I well what what  What happened is that if you have a small improvement or a small if on the well - matched case  it will have uh huge influence on the improvement compared to the reference because the reference system is  is  is quite good for  for the well - ma well - matched case also.

So it  it weights the improvement on the well - matched case really heavily compared to the improvement on the other cases ?

No , but it 's the weighting of the  of the improvement not of the error rate.


So. Which means that  actually the weight on the well - matched is  Well I well what what  What happened is that if you have a small improvement or a small if on the well - matched case  it will have uh huge influence on the improvement compared to the reference because the reference system is  is  is quite good for  for the well - ma well - matched case also.

So it  it weights the improvement on the well - matched case really heavily compared to the improvement on the other cases ?

No , but it 's the weighting of the  of the improvement not of the error rate.

Yeah. Yeah , and it 's hard to improve on the  on the best case , cuz it 's already so good , right ?


So it  it weights the improvement on the well - matched case really heavily compared to the improvement on the other cases ?

No , but it 's the weighting of the  of the improvement not of the error rate.

Yeah. Yeah , and it 's hard to improve on the  on the best case , cuz it 's already so good , right ?

Yeah but  what I mean is that you can have a huge improvement on the H  HMK 's , uh like five percent uh absolute , and this will not affect the final score almost  Uh this will almost not affect the final score because  this improvement  because the improvement  uh relative to the  the baseline is small


No , but it 's the weighting of the  of the improvement not of the error rate.

Yeah. Yeah , and it 's hard to improve on the  on the best case , cuz it 's already so good , right ?

Yeah but  what I mean is that you can have a huge improvement on the H  HMK 's , uh like five percent uh absolute , and this will not affect the final score almost  Uh this will almost not affect the final score because  this improvement  because the improvement  uh relative to the  the baseline is small

So they do improvement in terms of uh accuracy ? rather than word error rate ?


Yeah. Yeah , and it 's hard to improve on the  on the best case , cuz it 's already so good , right ?

Yeah but  what I mean is that you can have a huge improvement on the H  HMK 's , uh like five percent uh absolute , and this will not affect the final score almost  Uh this will almost not affect the final score because  this improvement  because the improvement  uh relative to the  the baseline is small

So they do improvement in terms of uh accuracy ? rather than word error rate ?


Yeah but  what I mean is that you can have a huge improvement on the H  HMK 's , uh like five percent uh absolute , and this will not affect the final score almost  Uh this will almost not affect the final score because  this improvement  because the improvement  uh relative to the  the baseline is small

So they do improvement in terms of uh accuracy ? rather than word error rate ?


So they do improvement in terms of uh accuracy ? rather than word error rate ?

No , it 's compared to the word er it 's improvement on the word error rate ,


No , it 's compared to the word er it 's improvement on the word error rate ,


No , it 's compared to the word er it 's improvement on the word error rate ,

So if you have uh ten percent error and you get five percent absolute uh  improvement then that 's fifty percent.


So if you have uh ten percent error and you get five percent absolute uh  improvement then that 's fifty percent.


So if you have uh ten percent error and you get five percent absolute uh  improvement then that 's fifty percent.

OK. So what you 're saying then is that if it 's something that has a small word error rate ,  then uh a  even a relatively small improvement on it , in absolute terms ,  will show up as quite  quite large in this.


OK. So what you 're saying then is that if it 's something that has a small word error rate ,  then uh a  even a relatively small improvement on it , in absolute terms ,  will show up as quite  quite large in this.


OK. But yeah that 's  that 's  it 's the notion of relative improvement. Word error rate.


OK. But yeah that 's  that 's  it 's the notion of relative improvement. Word error rate.

Yeah. Sure , but when we think about the weighting , which is point five , point three , point two ,  it 's on absolute on  on relative figures ,


Yeah. Sure , but when we think about the weighting , which is point five , point three , point two ,  it 's on absolute on  on relative figures ,


No. That 's why I 've been saying we should be looking at word error rate uh and  and not  not at  at accuracies.


I mean uh we probably should have standardized on that all the way through. It 's just


I mean uh we probably should have standardized on that all the way through. It 's just

I mean , it 's not  it 's not that different , right ? I mean , just subtract the accuracy.


I mean , it 's not  it 's not that different , right ? I mean , just subtract the accuracy.

Yeah but you 're  but when you look at the numbers , your sense of the relative size of things is quite different.


I mean , it 's not  it 's not that different , right ? I mean , just subtract the accuracy.

Yeah but you 're  but when you look at the numbers , your sense of the relative size of things is quite different.

If you had ninety percent uh correct  and five percent , five over ninety doesn't look like it 's a big difference , but  five over ten is  is big.


Yeah but you 're  but when you look at the numbers , your sense of the relative size of things is quite different.

If you had ninety percent uh correct  and five percent , five over ninety doesn't look like it 's a big difference , but  five over ten is  is big.


If you had ninety percent uh correct  and five percent , five over ninety doesn't look like it 's a big difference , but  five over ten is  is big.


If you had ninety percent uh correct  and five percent , five over ninety doesn't look like it 's a big difference , but  five over ten is  is big.

So just when we were looking at a lot of numbers and  getting sense of what was important.


So just when we were looking at a lot of numbers and  getting sense of what was important.


Well anyway uh. So. Yeah. So it hurts a little bit on the well - match and yeah.


Well anyway uh. So. Yeah. So it hurts a little bit on the well - match and yeah.

Like , it 's difficult to say because again um   I 'm not sure I have the um


Well anyway uh. So. Yeah. So it hurts a little bit on the well - match and yeah.

Like , it 's difficult to say because again um   I 'm not sure I have the um

Hey Morgan ? Do you remember that Signif program that we used to use for testing signi ? Is that still valid ? I  I 've been using that.


Like , it 's difficult to say because again um   I 'm not sure I have the um

Hey Morgan ? Do you remember that Signif program that we used to use for testing signi ? Is that still valid ? I  I 've been using that.


Hey Morgan ? Do you remember that Signif program that we used to use for testing signi ? Is that still valid ? I  I 've been using that.


and  and uh cleaned it up made some things better in it. So.


and  and uh cleaned it up made some things better in it. So.

OK. I should find that new one. I just use my old one from  ninety - two or whatever


and  and uh cleaned it up made some things better in it. So.

OK. I should find that new one. I just use my old one from  ninety - two or whatever

Yeah , I 'm sure it 's not that different but  but he   he uh  he was a little more rigorous , as I recall.


OK. I should find that new one. I just use my old one from  ninety - two or whatever

Yeah , I 'm sure it 's not that different but  but he   he uh  he was a little more rigorous , as I recall.

Right. So it 's around , like , point five. No , point six  uh percent absolute on Italian


Yeah , I 'm sure it 's not that different but  but he   he uh  he was a little more rigorous , as I recall.

Right. So it 's around , like , point five. No , point six  uh percent absolute on Italian


Right. So it 's around , like , point five. No , point six  uh percent absolute on Italian


Uh well we start from ninety - four point sixty - four , and we go to ninety - four point O four.


Uh well we start from ninety - four point sixty - four , and we go to ninety - four point O four.

Ninety - three point six four , right ? is the baseline.


Ninety - three point six four , right ? is the baseline.

Oh , no , I 've ninety - four. Oh , the baseline , you mean.


Ninety - three point six four , right ? is the baseline.

Oh , no , I 've ninety - four. Oh , the baseline , you mean.

Well I don't  I 'm not talking about the baseline here.


Oh , no , I 've ninety - four. Oh , the baseline , you mean.

Well I don't  I 'm not talking about the baseline here.


Well I don't  I 'm not talking about the baseline here.

I uh  My baseline is the submitted system.


I uh  My baseline is the submitted system.


Oh yeah. For Finnish , we start to ninety - three point eight - four and we go to ninety - three point seventy - four. And for Spanish we are  we were at ninety - five point O five and we go to ninety - three - s point sixty one.


Oh yeah. For Finnish , we start to ninety - three point eight - four and we go to ninety - three point seventy - four. And for Spanish we are  we were at ninety - five point O five and we go to ninety - three - s point sixty one.

And is that wh what  do you know what piece  you 've done several changes here. Uh , do you know what pie


And is that wh what  do you know what piece  you 've done several changes here. Uh , do you know what pie

Yeah. I guess  I guess it 's  it 's the filter. Because nnn , well uh we don't have complete result , but the filter  So the filter with the shorter delay hurts on Italian well - matched , which  And , yeah. And the other things , like um  downsampling , upsampling , don't seem to hurt and  the new on - line normalization , neither.


Yeah. I guess  I guess it 's  it 's the filter. Because nnn , well uh we don't have complete result , but the filter  So the filter with the shorter delay hurts on Italian well - matched , which  And , yeah. And the other things , like um  downsampling , upsampling , don't seem to hurt and  the new on - line normalization , neither.

I 'm really confused about something. If we saw that making a small change like , you know , a tenth , to the self - loop had a huge effect ,  can we really make any conclusions about differences in this stuff ?


I 'm really confused about something. If we saw that making a small change like , you know , a tenth , to the self - loop had a huge effect ,  can we really make any conclusions about differences in this stuff ?


I 'm really confused about something. If we saw that making a small change like , you know , a tenth , to the self - loop had a huge effect ,  can we really make any conclusions about differences in this stuff ?

I mean , especially when they 're this small. I mean.


I 'm really confused about something. If we saw that making a small change like , you know , a tenth , to the self - loop had a huge effect ,  can we really make any conclusions about differences in this stuff ?

I mean , especially when they 're this small. I mean.

I think we can be completely fooled by this thing , but  I don't know.


I mean , especially when they 're this small. I mean.

I think we can be completely fooled by this thing , but  I don't know.


I mean , especially when they 're this small. I mean.

I think we can be completely fooled by this thing , but  I don't know.

So. There is first this thing , and then the  yeah , I computed the um   like , the confidence level on the different test sets. And for the well - matched they are around um  point six uh percent. For the mismatched they are around like let 's say one point five percent. And for the well - m uh HM they are also around one point five.


I think we can be completely fooled by this thing , but  I don't know.

So. There is first this thing , and then the  yeah , I computed the um   like , the confidence level on the different test sets. And for the well - matched they are around um  point six uh percent. For the mismatched they are around like let 's say one point five percent. And for the well - m uh HM they are also around one point five.

But  OK , so you  these  these degradations you were talking about were on the well - matched case


So. There is first this thing , and then the  yeah , I computed the um   like , the confidence level on the different test sets. And for the well - matched they are around um  point six uh percent. For the mismatched they are around like let 's say one point five percent. And for the well - m uh HM they are also around one point five.

But  OK , so you  these  these degradations you were talking about were on the well - matched case


So. There is first this thing , and then the  yeah , I computed the um   like , the confidence level on the different test sets. And for the well - matched they are around um  point six uh percent. For the mismatched they are around like let 's say one point five percent. And for the well - m uh HM they are also around one point five.

But  OK , so you  these  these degradations you were talking about were on the well - matched case

Uh. Do the  does the new filter make things uh better or worse for the other cases ?


But  OK , so you  these  these degradations you were talking about were on the well - matched case

Uh. Do the  does the new filter make things uh better or worse for the other cases ?

Yeah. But. Uh. About the same. It doesn't hurt. Yeah.


Uh. Do the  does the new filter make things uh better or worse for the other cases ?

Yeah. But. Uh. About the same. It doesn't hurt. Yeah.

Doesn't hurt , but doesn't get a little better , or something.


Yeah. But. Uh. About the same. It doesn't hurt. Yeah.

Doesn't hurt , but doesn't get a little better , or something.

No. OK , so  um I guess the argument one might make is that , " Yeah , if you looked at one of these cases  and you jiggle something and it changes  then uh you 're not quite sure what to make of it. But when you look across a bunch of these and there 's some  some pattern , um  I mean , so eh h here 's all the  if  if in all these different cases  it never gets better , and there 's significant number of cases where it gets worse ,  then you 're probably  hurting things ,  I would say. So um  I mean at the very least that would be a reasonably prediction of what would happen with  with a different test set , that you 're not jiggling things with. So I guess the question is if you can do better than this. If you can  if we can approximate  the old numbers while still keeping the latency down.


Doesn't hurt , but doesn't get a little better , or something.

No. OK , so  um I guess the argument one might make is that , " Yeah , if you looked at one of these cases  and you jiggle something and it changes  then uh you 're not quite sure what to make of it. But when you look across a bunch of these and there 's some  some pattern , um  I mean , so eh h here 's all the  if  if in all these different cases  it never gets better , and there 's significant number of cases where it gets worse ,  then you 're probably  hurting things ,  I would say. So um  I mean at the very least that would be a reasonably prediction of what would happen with  with a different test set , that you 're not jiggling things with. So I guess the question is if you can do better than this. If you can  if we can approximate  the old numbers while still keeping the latency down.


No. OK , so  um I guess the argument one might make is that , " Yeah , if you looked at one of these cases  and you jiggle something and it changes  then uh you 're not quite sure what to make of it. But when you look across a bunch of these and there 's some  some pattern , um  I mean , so eh h here 's all the  if  if in all these different cases  it never gets better , and there 's significant number of cases where it gets worse ,  then you 're probably  hurting things ,  I would say. So um  I mean at the very least that would be a reasonably prediction of what would happen with  with a different test set , that you 're not jiggling things with. So I guess the question is if you can do better than this. If you can  if we can approximate  the old numbers while still keeping the latency down.

Uh , so. Um. What I was asking , though , is uh  are  what 's  what 's the level of communication with uh  the O G I gang now , about this and


No. OK , so  um I guess the argument one might make is that , " Yeah , if you looked at one of these cases  and you jiggle something and it changes  then uh you 're not quite sure what to make of it. But when you look across a bunch of these and there 's some  some pattern , um  I mean , so eh h here 's all the  if  if in all these different cases  it never gets better , and there 's significant number of cases where it gets worse ,  then you 're probably  hurting things ,  I would say. So um  I mean at the very least that would be a reasonably prediction of what would happen with  with a different test set , that you 're not jiggling things with. So I guess the question is if you can do better than this. If you can  if we can approximate  the old numbers while still keeping the latency down.

Uh , so. Um. What I was asking , though , is uh  are  what 's  what 's the level of communication with uh  the O G I gang now , about this and

Well , we are exchanging mail as soon as we   we have significant results.


Uh , so. Um. What I was asking , though , is uh  are  what 's  what 's the level of communication with uh  the O G I gang now , about this and

Well , we are exchanging mail as soon as we   we have significant results.


Uh , so. Um. What I was asking , though , is uh  are  what 's  what 's the level of communication with uh  the O G I gang now , about this and

Well , we are exchanging mail as soon as we   we have significant results.

Um. Yeah. For the moment , they are working on integrating  the um  spectral subtraction apparently from Ericsson.


Well , we are exchanging mail as soon as we   we have significant results.

Um. Yeah. For the moment , they are working on integrating  the um  spectral subtraction apparently from Ericsson.


Um. Yeah. For the moment , they are working on integrating  the um  spectral subtraction apparently from Ericsson.

Um. Yeah. And so. Yeah. We are working on our side on other things like  uh also trying a sup spectral subtraction but of  of our own , I mean , another  spectral substraction.


Um. Yeah. And so. Yeah. We are working on our side on other things like  uh also trying a sup spectral subtraction but of  of our own , I mean , another  spectral substraction.

Um. Yeah. So I think it 's  it 's OK. It 's going


Um. Yeah. And so. Yeah. We are working on our side on other things like  uh also trying a sup spectral subtraction but of  of our own , I mean , another  spectral substraction.

Um. Yeah. So I think it 's  it 's OK. It 's going

Is there any further discussion about this  this idea of  of having some sort of source code control ?


Um. Yeah. So I think it 's  it 's OK. It 's going

Is there any further discussion about this  this idea of  of having some sort of source code control ?

Yeah. Well. For the moment they 're  uh everybody 's quite um  There is this Eurospeech deadline , so.


Is there any further discussion about this  this idea of  of having some sort of source code control ?

Yeah. Well. For the moment they 're  uh everybody 's quite um  There is this Eurospeech deadline , so.

Um. And. Yeah. But yeah. As soon as we have something that 's significant and that 's better than  than what was submitted , we will fix  fix the system and  But we 've not discussed it  it  it  this yet , yeah.


Yeah. Well. For the moment they 're  uh everybody 's quite um  There is this Eurospeech deadline , so.

Um. And. Yeah. But yeah. As soon as we have something that 's significant and that 's better than  than what was submitted , we will fix  fix the system and  But we 've not discussed it  it  it  this yet , yeah.

Yeah. Sounds like a great idea but  but I think that  that um  he 's saying people are sort of scrambling for a Eurospeech deadline.


Um. And. Yeah. But yeah. As soon as we have something that 's significant and that 's better than  than what was submitted , we will fix  fix the system and  But we 've not discussed it  it  it  this yet , yeah.

Yeah. Sounds like a great idea but  but I think that  that um  he 's saying people are sort of scrambling for a Eurospeech deadline.


Um. And. Yeah. But yeah. As soon as we have something that 's significant and that 's better than  than what was submitted , we will fix  fix the system and  But we 've not discussed it  it  it  this yet , yeah.

Yeah. Sounds like a great idea but  but I think that  that um  he 's saying people are sort of scrambling for a Eurospeech deadline.

But that 'll be uh , uh done in a week. So , maybe after  this next one.


Yeah. Sounds like a great idea but  but I think that  that um  he 's saying people are sort of scrambling for a Eurospeech deadline.

But that 'll be uh , uh done in a week. So , maybe after  this next one.


But that 'll be uh , uh done in a week. So , maybe after  this next one.


Yeah. Anybo - anybody in the  in this group do doing anything for Eurospeech ?


Yeah. Anybo - anybody in the  in this group do doing anything for Eurospeech ?

Yeah we are   We are trying to  to do something with the Meeting Recorder digits ,


Yeah we are   We are trying to  to do something with the Meeting Recorder digits ,

and  But yeah. Yeah. And the good thing is that  there is this first deadline ,


and  But yeah. Yeah. And the good thing is that  there is this first deadline ,

and , well , some people from OGI are working on a paper for this , but there is also the um  special session about th Aurora which is   uh which has an extended deadline. So. The deadline is in May.


and , well , some people from OGI are working on a paper for this , but there is also the um  special session about th Aurora which is   uh which has an extended deadline. So. The deadline is in May.


So f only for the experiments on Aurora. So it  it 's good ,


Mm - hmm. Where is Eurospeech this year ?


So the deadline  When 's the deadline ? When 's the deadline ?


So the deadline  When 's the deadline ? When 's the deadline ?

Hmm ? I think it 's the thirteenth of May.


So the deadline  When 's the deadline ? When 's the deadline ?

Hmm ? I think it 's the thirteenth of May.

That 's great ! It 's great. So we should definitely get something in for that.


Hmm ? I think it 's the thirteenth of May.

That 's great ! It 's great. So we should definitely get something in for that.

But on meeting digits , maybe there 's  Maybe.


That 's great ! It 's great. So we should definitely get something in for that.

But on meeting digits , maybe there 's  Maybe.


But on meeting digits , maybe there 's  Maybe.


Yeah. So , I mean , I  I think that you could certainly start looking at  at the issue uh but  but uh  I think it 's probably , on s from what Stephane is saying , it 's  it 's unlikely to get sort of active participation from the two sides until after they 've


Yeah. So , I mean , I  I think that you could certainly start looking at  at the issue uh but  but uh  I think it 's probably , on s from what Stephane is saying , it 's  it 's unlikely to get sort of active participation from the two sides until after they 've

Well I could at least  Well , I 'm going to be out next week but I could  try to look into like this uh CVS over the web. That seems to be a very popular  way of  people distributing changes and  over , you know , multiple sites and things


Yeah. So , I mean , I  I think that you could certainly start looking at  at the issue uh but  but uh  I think it 's probably , on s from what Stephane is saying , it 's  it 's unlikely to get sort of active participation from the two sides until after they 've

Well I could at least  Well , I 'm going to be out next week but I could  try to look into like this uh CVS over the web. That seems to be a very popular  way of  people distributing changes and  over , you know , multiple sites and things

so maybe  if I can figure out how do that easily and then pass the information on to everybody so that it 's  you know , as easy to do as possible and  and people don't  it won't interfere with  their regular work , then maybe that would be good. And I think we could use it for other things around here too. So.


Well I could at least  Well , I 'm going to be out next week but I could  try to look into like this uh CVS over the web. That seems to be a very popular  way of  people distributing changes and  over , you know , multiple sites and things

so maybe  if I can figure out how do that easily and then pass the information on to everybody so that it 's  you know , as easy to do as possible and  and people don't  it won't interfere with  their regular work , then maybe that would be good. And I think we could use it for other things around here too. So.