Okay. We've got some really important questions now about legacy, because throughout the session this morning you've referred to ongoing work, really, and that is a major concern for the committee. Suzy Davies.

Yes, thank you, Chair, we are a little bit worried that this programme is coming to an end in a matter of months when perhaps its work's not been completed. Obviously, we've got the Welsh Government's strategy for mental health running until 2022, which is a few years longer. Can you tell me whether you think your programme needs to continue, perhaps even if it's just for the same length of time as Together for Mental Health, or is its work done and it needs to be picked up now by a different system?

Thank you for that. Can I just say, I've given this so much thought over the time, because I think you might have asked me this question when I came previously? There are two ways to look at this. I'm absolutely sure that the issue of children's emotional and mental health will be one that will be with us for a very long time. We have made a lot of progress, I think, as a society, in talking about this now. We talk about mental health so much more than we ever used to. When I was a child, we never talked about it. I talk to my own children and say, 'What's going on in your lives at school?', and they talk about this. This is not an issue, if you like, that I believe you can pick up and solve literally in five years. This is one for the long term for us. So, on the one hand, I think my view last year was that, when you have a programme of work, you should have a start, a middle and end, really—otherwise it's not a programme of work, it's almost forever—and there is a moment to refresh and reflect on whether that mechanism has done all it should and it should move into a different mechanism. So, my position last year was, 'This will have been running for five years—we've done a lot of work and made progress on specialist CAMHS, we have made progress on the whole-school approach and there is a different mechanism for this' et cetera. My position now is I want to just be really sure and secure that there is a strong arrangement going forward that takes this work, if this programme is going to close.


Yes, thank you, Chair, we are a little bit worried that this programme is coming to an end in a matter of months when perhaps its work's not been completed. Obviously, we've got the Welsh Government's strategy for mental health running until 2022, which is a few years longer. Can you tell me whether you think your programme needs to continue, perhaps even if it's just for the same length of time as Together for Mental Health, or is its work done and it needs to be picked up now by a different system?

Thank you for that. Can I just say, I've given this so much thought over the time, because I think you might have asked me this question when I came previously? There are two ways to look at this. I'm absolutely sure that the issue of children's emotional and mental health will be one that will be with us for a very long time. We have made a lot of progress, I think, as a society, in talking about this now. We talk about mental health so much more than we ever used to. When I was a child, we never talked about it. I talk to my own children and say, 'What's going on in your lives at school?', and they talk about this. This is not an issue, if you like, that I believe you can pick up and solve literally in five years. This is one for the long term for us. So, on the one hand, I think my view last year was that, when you have a programme of work, you should have a start, a middle and end, really—otherwise it's not a programme of work, it's almost forever—and there is a moment to refresh and reflect on whether that mechanism has done all it should and it should move into a different mechanism. So, my position last year was, 'This will have been running for five years—we've done a lot of work and made progress on specialist CAMHS, we have made progress on the whole-school approach and there is a different mechanism for this' et cetera. My position now is I want to just be really sure and secure that there is a strong arrangement going forward that takes this work, if this programme is going to close.

Not yet. So, I think, in an earlier question I indicated dialogue going on between myself and Welsh Government officials. I don't think there's a barrier—people aren't saying, 'No, it all needs to just stop; we've solved the issue', but the exact nature of the legacy arrangements, particularly for early help and enhanced support, are not yet fully determined, or for neurodevelopmental. If it was a choice between nothing being there and continuing this programme, I would be supporting continuing the programme. I don't think we can stop now.


Thank you for that. Can I just say, I've given this so much thought over the time, because I think you might have asked me this question when I came previously? There are two ways to look at this. I'm absolutely sure that the issue of children's emotional and mental health will be one that will be with us for a very long time. We have made a lot of progress, I think, as a society, in talking about this now. We talk about mental health so much more than we ever used to. When I was a child, we never talked about it. I talk to my own children and say, 'What's going on in your lives at school?', and they talk about this. This is not an issue, if you like, that I believe you can pick up and solve literally in five years. This is one for the long term for us. So, on the one hand, I think my view last year was that, when you have a programme of work, you should have a start, a middle and end, really—otherwise it's not a programme of work, it's almost forever—and there is a moment to refresh and reflect on whether that mechanism has done all it should and it should move into a different mechanism. So, my position last year was, 'This will have been running for five years—we've done a lot of work and made progress on specialist CAMHS, we have made progress on the whole-school approach and there is a different mechanism for this' et cetera. My position now is I want to just be really sure and secure that there is a strong arrangement going forward that takes this work, if this programme is going to close.

Not yet. So, I think, in an earlier question I indicated dialogue going on between myself and Welsh Government officials. I don't think there's a barrier—people aren't saying, 'No, it all needs to just stop; we've solved the issue', but the exact nature of the legacy arrangements, particularly for early help and enhanced support, are not yet fully determined, or for neurodevelopmental. If it was a choice between nothing being there and continuing this programme, I would be supporting continuing the programme. I don't think we can stop now.

Well, I don't think any of us would disagree with that, but I suppose there might be a level of concern that the Welsh Government's preferred route from now on would be through the regional partnership boards and public services boards. You mentioned that you've done that work in Gwent, down in the south-east of your patch there. It's quite difficult for us to try and get a picture of how that will work successfully for the whole of Wales. I know you've got your experience in Gwent, but have you thought a bit more about how it might look elsewhere, if that's the route that Government decides to pursue?


Not yet. So, I think, in an earlier question I indicated dialogue going on between myself and Welsh Government officials. I don't think there's a barrier—people aren't saying, 'No, it all needs to just stop; we've solved the issue', but the exact nature of the legacy arrangements, particularly for early help and enhanced support, are not yet fully determined, or for neurodevelopmental. If it was a choice between nothing being there and continuing this programme, I would be supporting continuing the programme. I don't think we can stop now.

Well, I don't think any of us would disagree with that, but I suppose there might be a level of concern that the Welsh Government's preferred route from now on would be through the regional partnership boards and public services boards. You mentioned that you've done that work in Gwent, down in the south-east of your patch there. It's quite difficult for us to try and get a picture of how that will work successfully for the whole of Wales. I know you've got your experience in Gwent, but have you thought a bit more about how it might look elsewhere, if that's the route that Government decides to pursue?

Yes. I think the key question in my own mind is: are the regional partnership boards yet ready and mature enough to take this forward? I'm the chair of the Powys regional partnership board, so I should declare that. There's a lot being asked of the regional partnership boards at the moment—


Not yet. So, I think, in an earlier question I indicated dialogue going on between myself and Welsh Government officials. I don't think there's a barrier—people aren't saying, 'No, it all needs to just stop; we've solved the issue', but the exact nature of the legacy arrangements, particularly for early help and enhanced support, are not yet fully determined, or for neurodevelopmental. If it was a choice between nothing being there and continuing this programme, I would be supporting continuing the programme. I don't think we can stop now.

Well, I don't think any of us would disagree with that, but I suppose there might be a level of concern that the Welsh Government's preferred route from now on would be through the regional partnership boards and public services boards. You mentioned that you've done that work in Gwent, down in the south-east of your patch there. It's quite difficult for us to try and get a picture of how that will work successfully for the whole of Wales. I know you've got your experience in Gwent, but have you thought a bit more about how it might look elsewhere, if that's the route that Government decides to pursue?

Yes. I think the key question in my own mind is: are the regional partnership boards yet ready and mature enough to take this forward? I'm the chair of the Powys regional partnership board, so I should declare that. There's a lot being asked of the regional partnership boards at the moment—

Well, we'll be asking them to go with the 'Mind over matter' report, to make sure that that's delivered upon.


Well, I don't think any of us would disagree with that, but I suppose there might be a level of concern that the Welsh Government's preferred route from now on would be through the regional partnership boards and public services boards. You mentioned that you've done that work in Gwent, down in the south-east of your patch there. It's quite difficult for us to try and get a picture of how that will work successfully for the whole of Wales. I know you've got your experience in Gwent, but have you thought a bit more about how it might look elsewhere, if that's the route that Government decides to pursue?

Yes. I think the key question in my own mind is: are the regional partnership boards yet ready and mature enough to take this forward? I'm the chair of the Powys regional partnership board, so I should declare that. There's a lot being asked of the regional partnership boards at the moment—

Well, we'll be asking them to go with the 'Mind over matter' report, to make sure that that's delivered upon.

There's a lot, you know, 'A Healthier Wales'—. Everyone does feel that the regional partnership boards are a route to really secure multi-agency working, so there is quite a high expectation. My understanding—and this is a rather informal understanding—is that different RPBs are in different places. So, some have retained what used to be the old children and young people partnerships, and perhaps where they have been retained, they may be in a more progressed position. Some are looking to have to re-establish those. So, my sense of this is that, I think, possibly the RPBs aren't yet in that position to be ready. Our piece of work on early help and enhanced support, in terms of your earlier question about what's the commitment—that feels that that may well be another year or 18 months of development work, alongside the RPB development work, to get that ready, before we can then more confidently say where we can hand over.


Yes. I think the key question in my own mind is: are the regional partnership boards yet ready and mature enough to take this forward? I'm the chair of the Powys regional partnership board, so I should declare that. There's a lot being asked of the regional partnership boards at the moment—

Well, we'll be asking them to go with the 'Mind over matter' report, to make sure that that's delivered upon.

There's a lot, you know, 'A Healthier Wales'—. Everyone does feel that the regional partnership boards are a route to really secure multi-agency working, so there is quite a high expectation. My understanding—and this is a rather informal understanding—is that different RPBs are in different places. So, some have retained what used to be the old children and young people partnerships, and perhaps where they have been retained, they may be in a more progressed position. Some are looking to have to re-establish those. So, my sense of this is that, I think, possibly the RPBs aren't yet in that position to be ready. Our piece of work on early help and enhanced support, in terms of your earlier question about what's the commitment—that feels that that may well be another year or 18 months of development work, alongside the RPB development work, to get that ready, before we can then more confidently say where we can hand over.

You may not feel able to say it, then, but would be wrong in saying that, actually, it would be quite a good idea to extend the current programme, just to make sure that anyone else who might be able to run on with component parts of it is in the position to do that to our satisfaction?


Well, we'll be asking them to go with the 'Mind over matter' report, to make sure that that's delivered upon.

There's a lot, you know, 'A Healthier Wales'—. Everyone does feel that the regional partnership boards are a route to really secure multi-agency working, so there is quite a high expectation. My understanding—and this is a rather informal understanding—is that different RPBs are in different places. So, some have retained what used to be the old children and young people partnerships, and perhaps where they have been retained, they may be in a more progressed position. Some are looking to have to re-establish those. So, my sense of this is that, I think, possibly the RPBs aren't yet in that position to be ready. Our piece of work on early help and enhanced support, in terms of your earlier question about what's the commitment—that feels that that may well be another year or 18 months of development work, alongside the RPB development work, to get that ready, before we can then more confidently say where we can hand over.

You may not feel able to say it, then, but would be wrong in saying that, actually, it would be quite a good idea to extend the current programme, just to make sure that anyone else who might be able to run on with component parts of it is in the position to do that to our satisfaction?

I'm happy to respond to it. My sense is that, whether it's the programme or whether it's something else, something needs to be there. The next stage is really multi-agency, so it may well be that the programme currently has been NHS-led—maybe it needs to be led elsewhere, maybe not. I think there's a view that this needs to continue. I'm less wedded to it having to be the Together for Children and Young People programme. It may be seen as a convenient mechanism—it's already established, we've got a programme team et cetera, so it may be seen as a ready sort of solution. I'm not wedded to that. What I feel strongly about is that we've got to have the right mechanism to take it forward.


There's a lot, you know, 'A Healthier Wales'—. Everyone does feel that the regional partnership boards are a route to really secure multi-agency working, so there is quite a high expectation. My understanding—and this is a rather informal understanding—is that different RPBs are in different places. So, some have retained what used to be the old children and young people partnerships, and perhaps where they have been retained, they may be in a more progressed position. Some are looking to have to re-establish those. So, my sense of this is that, I think, possibly the RPBs aren't yet in that position to be ready. Our piece of work on early help and enhanced support, in terms of your earlier question about what's the commitment—that feels that that may well be another year or 18 months of development work, alongside the RPB development work, to get that ready, before we can then more confidently say where we can hand over.

You may not feel able to say it, then, but would be wrong in saying that, actually, it would be quite a good idea to extend the current programme, just to make sure that anyone else who might be able to run on with component parts of it is in the position to do that to our satisfaction?

I'm happy to respond to it. My sense is that, whether it's the programme or whether it's something else, something needs to be there. The next stage is really multi-agency, so it may well be that the programme currently has been NHS-led—maybe it needs to be led elsewhere, maybe not. I think there's a view that this needs to continue. I'm less wedded to it having to be the Together for Children and Young People programme. It may be seen as a convenient mechanism—it's already established, we've got a programme team et cetera, so it may be seen as a ready sort of solution. I'm not wedded to that. What I feel strongly about is that we've got to have the right mechanism to take it forward.

Can I just push you on one thing there? You mentioned, perhaps, the NHS could lead on the work, for example. Is there a risk of fragmentation if we start looking—? I'm just thinking—I mean, we've got the elements here: we've got the NHS, there's the whole-school approach, early help and enhanced support and intervention, as you mentioned earlier. If that goes to one of the players in that multi-agency approach, is there a risk that they might become too dominant, inadvertently—?


You may not feel able to say it, then, but would be wrong in saying that, actually, it would be quite a good idea to extend the current programme, just to make sure that anyone else who might be able to run on with component parts of it is in the position to do that to our satisfaction?

I'm happy to respond to it. My sense is that, whether it's the programme or whether it's something else, something needs to be there. The next stage is really multi-agency, so it may well be that the programme currently has been NHS-led—maybe it needs to be led elsewhere, maybe not. I think there's a view that this needs to continue. I'm less wedded to it having to be the Together for Children and Young People programme. It may be seen as a convenient mechanism—it's already established, we've got a programme team et cetera, so it may be seen as a ready sort of solution. I'm not wedded to that. What I feel strongly about is that we've got to have the right mechanism to take it forward.

Can I just push you on one thing there? You mentioned, perhaps, the NHS could lead on the work, for example. Is there a risk of fragmentation if we start looking—? I'm just thinking—I mean, we've got the elements here: we've got the NHS, there's the whole-school approach, early help and enhanced support and intervention, as you mentioned earlier. If that goes to one of the players in that multi-agency approach, is there a risk that they might become too dominant, inadvertently—?

If I can just clarify—apologies if I wasn't clear. I said the current programme has been NHS-led, and that might be a reason to change.


I'm happy to respond to it. My sense is that, whether it's the programme or whether it's something else, something needs to be there. The next stage is really multi-agency, so it may well be that the programme currently has been NHS-led—maybe it needs to be led elsewhere, maybe not. I think there's a view that this needs to continue. I'm less wedded to it having to be the Together for Children and Young People programme. It may be seen as a convenient mechanism—it's already established, we've got a programme team et cetera, so it may be seen as a ready sort of solution. I'm not wedded to that. What I feel strongly about is that we've got to have the right mechanism to take it forward.

Can I just push you on one thing there? You mentioned, perhaps, the NHS could lead on the work, for example. Is there a risk of fragmentation if we start looking—? I'm just thinking—I mean, we've got the elements here: we've got the NHS, there's the whole-school approach, early help and enhanced support and intervention, as you mentioned earlier. If that goes to one of the players in that multi-agency approach, is there a risk that they might become too dominant, inadvertently—?

If I can just clarify—apologies if I wasn't clear. I said the current programme has been NHS-led, and that might be a reason to change.

To mix it up a bit. Oh, right, okay. Anything else you want me to pursue on that—?


Can I just push you on one thing there? You mentioned, perhaps, the NHS could lead on the work, for example. Is there a risk of fragmentation if we start looking—? I'm just thinking—I mean, we've got the elements here: we've got the NHS, there's the whole-school approach, early help and enhanced support and intervention, as you mentioned earlier. If that goes to one of the players in that multi-agency approach, is there a risk that they might become too dominant, inadvertently—?

If I can just clarify—apologies if I wasn't clear. I said the current programme has been NHS-led, and that might be a reason to change.

To mix it up a bit. Oh, right, okay. Anything else you want me to pursue on that—?

Can I just clarify for the record, Carol—because we put this to the Minister last week—are you looking at asking the regional partnership boards to take this work over from October 2019? Are you saying clearly to the committee that you do not feel that all regional partnership boards are ready for that challenge at this point?


If I can just clarify—apologies if I wasn't clear. I said the current programme has been NHS-led, and that might be a reason to change.

To mix it up a bit. Oh, right, okay. Anything else you want me to pursue on that—?

Can I just clarify for the record, Carol—because we put this to the Minister last week—are you looking at asking the regional partnership boards to take this work over from October 2019? Are you saying clearly to the committee that you do not feel that all regional partnership boards are ready for that challenge at this point?

I'm saying that on a more, if you like it, uniformed and informal basis, we're doing some work with the children's commissioner now in terms of—. I know the children's commissioner's very interested in how RPBs are managing, developing and dealing with the issues of children and young people's concerns. We're working with her to understand and to mirror alongside her the understanding of the RPBs. What I would say is that there has been some preparatory work by Government around supporting RPBs. So, for example, in the integrated care fund guidance last year, there was a specific reference to child and adolescent emotional mental health, which I welcomed. I've also welcomed, literally last week, a letter to all RPB chairs giving an allocation of £200,000 per RPB to support this further work in terms of child and adolescent emotional and mental health and the early help and support element. So, all of these things are in the right direction. My sense, and I need to stress it's a sense because we haven't done that piece of work, is different RPBs are in different places. So, how confident can we be at the October date that we could hand over? My sense is, just to safeguard, having a mechanism in place for the next 12 to 18 months to guide this through might be advisable, and that's what I'm talking to officials about.


To mix it up a bit. Oh, right, okay. Anything else you want me to pursue on that—?

Can I just clarify for the record, Carol—because we put this to the Minister last week—are you looking at asking the regional partnership boards to take this work over from October 2019? Are you saying clearly to the committee that you do not feel that all regional partnership boards are ready for that challenge at this point?

I'm saying that on a more, if you like it, uniformed and informal basis, we're doing some work with the children's commissioner now in terms of—. I know the children's commissioner's very interested in how RPBs are managing, developing and dealing with the issues of children and young people's concerns. We're working with her to understand and to mirror alongside her the understanding of the RPBs. What I would say is that there has been some preparatory work by Government around supporting RPBs. So, for example, in the integrated care fund guidance last year, there was a specific reference to child and adolescent emotional mental health, which I welcomed. I've also welcomed, literally last week, a letter to all RPB chairs giving an allocation of £200,000 per RPB to support this further work in terms of child and adolescent emotional and mental health and the early help and support element. So, all of these things are in the right direction. My sense, and I need to stress it's a sense because we haven't done that piece of work, is different RPBs are in different places. So, how confident can we be at the October date that we could hand over? My sense is, just to safeguard, having a mechanism in place for the next 12 to 18 months to guide this through might be advisable, and that's what I'm talking to officials about.

And that would either be an extension of the Together for Children and Young People programme or something else. Okay, thank you.


Can I just clarify for the record, Carol—because we put this to the Minister last week—are you looking at asking the regional partnership boards to take this work over from October 2019? Are you saying clearly to the committee that you do not feel that all regional partnership boards are ready for that challenge at this point?

I'm saying that on a more, if you like it, uniformed and informal basis, we're doing some work with the children's commissioner now in terms of—. I know the children's commissioner's very interested in how RPBs are managing, developing and dealing with the issues of children and young people's concerns. We're working with her to understand and to mirror alongside her the understanding of the RPBs. What I would say is that there has been some preparatory work by Government around supporting RPBs. So, for example, in the integrated care fund guidance last year, there was a specific reference to child and adolescent emotional mental health, which I welcomed. I've also welcomed, literally last week, a letter to all RPB chairs giving an allocation of £200,000 per RPB to support this further work in terms of child and adolescent emotional and mental health and the early help and support element. So, all of these things are in the right direction. My sense, and I need to stress it's a sense because we haven't done that piece of work, is different RPBs are in different places. So, how confident can we be at the October date that we could hand over? My sense is, just to safeguard, having a mechanism in place for the next 12 to 18 months to guide this through might be advisable, and that's what I'm talking to officials about.

And that would either be an extension of the Together for Children and Young People programme or something else. Okay, thank you.

Thank you. Because I think there is a question, isn't there, about whether the RPBs will make this enough of a priority? I'm a bit nervous that it might get lost in that huge amount of work you said they might have. Just a final question from me: how are you establishing what the young people themselves think about the end of the programme? Are they bothered about the structure of this at all or are they just concerned that they're getting help? How's the stakeholder group feeding into this?


I'm saying that on a more, if you like it, uniformed and informal basis, we're doing some work with the children's commissioner now in terms of—. I know the children's commissioner's very interested in how RPBs are managing, developing and dealing with the issues of children and young people's concerns. We're working with her to understand and to mirror alongside her the understanding of the RPBs. What I would say is that there has been some preparatory work by Government around supporting RPBs. So, for example, in the integrated care fund guidance last year, there was a specific reference to child and adolescent emotional mental health, which I welcomed. I've also welcomed, literally last week, a letter to all RPB chairs giving an allocation of £200,000 per RPB to support this further work in terms of child and adolescent emotional and mental health and the early help and support element. So, all of these things are in the right direction. My sense, and I need to stress it's a sense because we haven't done that piece of work, is different RPBs are in different places. So, how confident can we be at the October date that we could hand over? My sense is, just to safeguard, having a mechanism in place for the next 12 to 18 months to guide this through might be advisable, and that's what I'm talking to officials about.

And that would either be an extension of the Together for Children and Young People programme or something else. Okay, thank you.

Thank you. Because I think there is a question, isn't there, about whether the RPBs will make this enough of a priority? I'm a bit nervous that it might get lost in that huge amount of work you said they might have. Just a final question from me: how are you establishing what the young people themselves think about the end of the programme? Are they bothered about the structure of this at all or are they just concerned that they're getting help? How's the stakeholder group feeding into this?

I've not been blown over in the rush of people saying, 'Don't go anywhere.' [Laughter.] It's a really important matter for young people. I know that later on you're meeting with the Youth Parliament, you're having a joint session, which is fantastic. We've had contact with the Youth Parliament because we know it's one of their top three issues. So, it runs in the vein of that this is going to be a long-term matter for young people, I think. Whether they have a specific view on the programme, I don't know. I've not heard that. But I'm pretty sure they will be vocal in saying, 'We have to have these developments continue.' It is a major issue, we're not there yet—maybe some progress has been made but there's still a lot to do—and I think we'll need to be able to respond to that.


And that would either be an extension of the Together for Children and Young People programme or something else. Okay, thank you.

Thank you. Because I think there is a question, isn't there, about whether the RPBs will make this enough of a priority? I'm a bit nervous that it might get lost in that huge amount of work you said they might have. Just a final question from me: how are you establishing what the young people themselves think about the end of the programme? Are they bothered about the structure of this at all or are they just concerned that they're getting help? How's the stakeholder group feeding into this?

I've not been blown over in the rush of people saying, 'Don't go anywhere.' [Laughter.] It's a really important matter for young people. I know that later on you're meeting with the Youth Parliament, you're having a joint session, which is fantastic. We've had contact with the Youth Parliament because we know it's one of their top three issues. So, it runs in the vein of that this is going to be a long-term matter for young people, I think. Whether they have a specific view on the programme, I don't know. I've not heard that. But I'm pretty sure they will be vocal in saying, 'We have to have these developments continue.' It is a major issue, we're not there yet—maybe some progress has been made but there's still a lot to do—and I think we'll need to be able to respond to that.

Anything particularly you want in addition to that?


Thank you. Because I think there is a question, isn't there, about whether the RPBs will make this enough of a priority? I'm a bit nervous that it might get lost in that huge amount of work you said they might have. Just a final question from me: how are you establishing what the young people themselves think about the end of the programme? Are they bothered about the structure of this at all or are they just concerned that they're getting help? How's the stakeholder group feeding into this?

I've not been blown over in the rush of people saying, 'Don't go anywhere.' [Laughter.] It's a really important matter for young people. I know that later on you're meeting with the Youth Parliament, you're having a joint session, which is fantastic. We've had contact with the Youth Parliament because we know it's one of their top three issues. So, it runs in the vein of that this is going to be a long-term matter for young people, I think. Whether they have a specific view on the programme, I don't know. I've not heard that. But I'm pretty sure they will be vocal in saying, 'We have to have these developments continue.' It is a major issue, we're not there yet—maybe some progress has been made but there's still a lot to do—and I think we'll need to be able to respond to that.

Anything particularly you want in addition to that?

No, I think that's fine. And if I can just say that it was really great last week at the early help and enhanced day to see young people so central to the day all the way through. It was very, very important and very welcome.


I've not been blown over in the rush of people saying, 'Don't go anywhere.' [Laughter.] It's a really important matter for young people. I know that later on you're meeting with the Youth Parliament, you're having a joint session, which is fantastic. We've had contact with the Youth Parliament because we know it's one of their top three issues. So, it runs in the vein of that this is going to be a long-term matter for young people, I think. Whether they have a specific view on the programme, I don't know. I've not heard that. But I'm pretty sure they will be vocal in saying, 'We have to have these developments continue.' It is a major issue, we're not there yet—maybe some progress has been made but there's still a lot to do—and I think we'll need to be able to respond to that.

Anything particularly you want in addition to that?

No, I think that's fine. And if I can just say that it was really great last week at the early help and enhanced day to see young people so central to the day all the way through. It was very, very important and very welcome.

Carol, thank you for that. Thank you, Chair.


Anything particularly you want in addition to that?

No, I think that's fine. And if I can just say that it was really great last week at the early help and enhanced day to see young people so central to the day all the way through. It was very, very important and very welcome.

Carol, thank you for that. Thank you, Chair.

Okay. we have come to the end of our time. We had a lot of things that we wanted to cover with you. We might need to drop you a line about a couple of things that we haven't covered, but can I thank you for your attendance this morning? As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much for your time.


No, I think that's fine. And if I can just say that it was really great last week at the early help and enhanced day to see young people so central to the day all the way through. It was very, very important and very welcome.

Carol, thank you for that. Thank you, Chair.

Okay. we have come to the end of our time. We had a lot of things that we wanted to cover with you. We might need to drop you a line about a couple of things that we haven't covered, but can I thank you for your attendance this morning? As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much for your time.


Carol, thank you for that. Thank you, Chair.

Okay. we have come to the end of our time. We had a lot of things that we wanted to cover with you. We might need to drop you a line about a couple of things that we haven't covered, but can I thank you for your attendance this morning? As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much for your time.

Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Welsh Youth Parliament—invitation to engagement events. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Minister for Education clarifying some issues around the Welsh network of healthy schools scheme, following the task and finish group. Paper to note 3: letter from the Minister for Education on the implementation of the Diamond reforms, and that's ahead of our session on 4 July. Papers to note 4 and 5 are a letter from me to the children's commissioner and the Minister for Education seeking the update we agreed on the issue of elective home education. And then paper to note 6, paper to note 7 and paper to note 8 are all letters regarding the concerns that we discussed about the expectation of a target being set for looked-after children, to the First Minister, Children's Commissioner for Wales and the Association of Directors of Social Services. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you very much. Item 4, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Okay.


Okay. we have come to the end of our time. We had a lot of things that we wanted to cover with you. We might need to drop you a line about a couple of things that we haven't covered, but can I thank you for your attendance this morning? As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much for your time.

Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Welsh Youth Parliament—invitation to engagement events. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Minister for Education clarifying some issues around the Welsh network of healthy schools scheme, following the task and finish group. Paper to note 3: letter from the Minister for Education on the implementation of the Diamond reforms, and that's ahead of our session on 4 July. Papers to note 4 and 5 are a letter from me to the children's commissioner and the Minister for Education seeking the update we agreed on the issue of elective home education. And then paper to note 6, paper to note 7 and paper to note 8 are all letters regarding the concerns that we discussed about the expectation of a target being set for looked-after children, to the First Minister, Children's Commissioner for Wales and the Association of Directors of Social Services. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you very much. Item 4, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Okay.


Is everybody sitting on the right place ? Yeah ?


Is everybody sitting on the right place ? Yeah ?

I guess so. So  Let's see. First I will introduce myself. I don't know if uh  if everybody knows me , so I'm Bart ,


I guess so. So  Let's see. First I will introduce myself. I don't know if uh  if everybody knows me , so I'm Bart ,


Uh let's see. Uh let's start off um with a little presentation. Uh Now first I'll tell you a little bit about the setting. You can see there are a few cameras here. They'll record uh our actions and you'll have wires and microphones that will record your voice. Uh there are also some microphones there but th um you don't have to pay a lot of attention on those , because it will uh disappear when you don't attend to it. So is there a project documents folder ? There are some notes in it already I see , some documents. Uh I'll start with the presentation kick off. Is being modified by the administrator. Uh okay .


Uh let's see. Uh let's start off um with a little presentation. Uh Now first I'll tell you a little bit about the setting. You can see there are a few cameras here. They'll record uh our actions and you'll have wires and microphones that will record your voice. Uh there are also some microphones there but th um you don't have to pay a lot of attention on those , because it will uh disappear when you don't attend to it. So is there a project documents folder ? There are some notes in it already I see , some documents. Uh I'll start with the presentation kick off. Is being modified by the administrator. Uh okay .

Let's do it read only. Well I don't know if you've noticed , but uh we're working for Real Reaction. Uh it's a company in uh electronics. We put fashion in electronics , uh we make it work , uh we put a lot of effort in design and in the product itself. I'm Bart  the project manager so I'll direct you through the project. This is our agenda.  Uh we have our opening acquaintance , tool training , project plan description closing.


Uh let's see. Uh let's start off um with a little presentation. Uh Now first I'll tell you a little bit about the setting. You can see there are a few cameras here. They'll record uh our actions and you'll have wires and microphones that will record your voice. Uh there are also some microphones there but th um you don't have to pay a lot of attention on those , because it will uh disappear when you don't attend to it. So is there a project documents folder ? There are some notes in it already I see , some documents. Uh I'll start with the presentation kick off. Is being modified by the administrator. Uh okay .

Let's do it read only. Well I don't know if you've noticed , but uh we're working for Real Reaction. Uh it's a company in uh electronics. We put fashion in electronics , uh we make it work , uh we put a lot of effort in design and in the product itself. I'm Bart  the project manager so I'll direct you through the project. This is our agenda.  Uh we have our opening acquaintance , tool training , project plan description closing.

Uh maybe I can sit down , then I can take some notes or  Let's see. Maybe you can take the minutes once in a while.


Let's do it read only. Well I don't know if you've noticed , but uh we're working for Real Reaction. Uh it's a company in uh electronics. We put fashion in electronics , uh we make it work , uh we put a lot of effort in design and in the product itself. I'm Bart  the project manager so I'll direct you through the project. This is our agenda.  Uh we have our opening acquaintance , tool training , project plan description closing.

Uh maybe I can sit down , then I can take some notes or  Let's see. Maybe you can take the minutes once in a while.


Let's do it read only. Well I don't know if you've noticed , but uh we're working for Real Reaction. Uh it's a company in uh electronics. We put fashion in electronics , uh we make it work , uh we put a lot of effort in design and in the product itself. I'm Bart  the project manager so I'll direct you through the project. This is our agenda.  Uh we have our opening acquaintance , tool training , project plan description closing.

Uh maybe I can sit down , then I can take some notes or  Let's see. Maybe you can take the minutes once in a while.

I dunno it's not a lot of work , but just uh if you hear something uh you can write down , just write it down. Uh as you can see uh it's the opening , aquaintance tool training. Aquaintance is a point we've done a bit. Um have you all seen the corporate website already ? Yeah.


Uh maybe I can sit down , then I can take some notes or  Let's see. Maybe you can take the minutes once in a while.

I dunno it's not a lot of work , but just uh if you hear something uh you can write down , just write it down. Uh as you can see uh it's the opening , aquaintance tool training. Aquaintance is a point we've done a bit. Um have you all seen the corporate website already ? Yeah.


I dunno it's not a lot of work , but just uh if you hear something uh you can write down , just write it down. Uh as you can see uh it's the opening , aquaintance tool training. Aquaintance is a point we've done a bit. Um have you all seen the corporate website already ? Yeah.


I dunno it's not a lot of work , but just uh if you hear something uh you can write down , just write it down. Uh as you can see uh it's the opening , aquaintance tool training. Aquaintance is a point we've done a bit. Um have you all seen the corporate website already ? Yeah.

Have you seen any flaws in it ? I think I found one.  No ?


Have you seen any flaws in it ? I think I found one.  No ?


Have you seen any flaws in it ? I think I found one.  No ?

I can see if it works this way. No , it doesn't work here.


I can see if it works this way. No , it doesn't work here.

Okay no problem. But um on the corporate information side there's a th uh  there was Real Remote instead of Real Reaction.


I can see if it works this way. No , it doesn't work here.

Okay no problem. But um on the corporate information side there's a th uh  there was Real Remote instead of Real Reaction.

Real Remote is not really the company we're  we are , but it's just a little  fault.


Okay no problem. But um on the corporate information side there's a th uh  there was Real Remote instead of Real Reaction.

Real Remote is not really the company we're  we are , but it's just a little  fault.


Real Remote is not really the company we're  we are , but it's just a little  fault.

Um okay , what are we going to do ?  Uh our project aim is as you can see a new remote control. It has to be original , trendy , and user friendly. So these are uh the points why uh we also hired you.  We've got the Marketing Expert for uh the trendy and user friendly look.


Um okay , what are we going to do ?  Uh our project aim is as you can see a new remote control. It has to be original , trendy , and user friendly. So these are uh the points why uh we also hired you.  We've got the Marketing Expert for uh the trendy and user friendly look.

And Industrial Designer uh there's also user friendly and a bit original.  And we've got our User Interface Designer.


And Industrial Designer uh there's also user friendly and a bit original.  And we've got our User Interface Designer.

He's also uh  That's about the new remote control. Uh project method um is uh there are three phases we are going through. First is functional des uh design , individual work , meetings. After the functional design , then the conceptual design and the detailed design.  I had some role indications on here. But I think you know it already by yourself. The Industrial Designer is going to work on the working design , uh components design and a bit of the look and feel design. Uh the User Interface Designer is going to do the technical function design , user interface concept and user interface design.  And the marketing expert is doing a little bit of user requirement specification , trend watching and project  uh product ev evaluation. So that's a bit what you're going to do. But that will be all worked out in uh other meetings.


And Industrial Designer uh there's also user friendly and a bit original.  And we've got our User Interface Designer.

He's also uh  That's about the new remote control. Uh project method um is uh there are three phases we are going through. First is functional des uh design , individual work , meetings. After the functional design , then the conceptual design and the detailed design.  I had some role indications on here. But I think you know it already by yourself. The Industrial Designer is going to work on the working design , uh components design and a bit of the look and feel design. Uh the User Interface Designer is going to do the technical function design , user interface concept and user interface design.  And the marketing expert is doing a little bit of user requirement specification , trend watching and project  uh product ev evaluation. So that's a bit what you're going to do. But that will be all worked out in uh other meetings.

Then we've got our first tool training.  We are going to work with a lot of high-tech tools here , so it's ab it's handy if we have a little bit of training first. As you can see we've got the smart boards here and here in the white board. Um in the white board here there's a little tool bar on this side. Here are some functions. You can save. N uh these functions we don't have anything to do with , only undo , you can undo a little uh piece of drawing. A blank new document for each person. Uh select a pen , eraser. Capture we don't have to do anything with. Uh then we've got our pen. This pen. It's really funny because you can draw with it on this page um in the  think it is form of.


He's also uh  That's about the new remote control. Uh project method um is uh there are three phases we are going through. First is functional des uh design , individual work , meetings. After the functional design , then the conceptual design and the detailed design.  I had some role indications on here. But I think you know it already by yourself. The Industrial Designer is going to work on the working design , uh components design and a bit of the look and feel design. Uh the User Interface Designer is going to do the technical function design , user interface concept and user interface design.  And the marketing expert is doing a little bit of user requirement specification , trend watching and project  uh product ev evaluation. So that's a bit what you're going to do. But that will be all worked out in uh other meetings.

Then we've got our first tool training.  We are going to work with a lot of high-tech tools here , so it's ab it's handy if we have a little bit of training first. As you can see we've got the smart boards here and here in the white board. Um in the white board here there's a little tool bar on this side. Here are some functions. You can save. N uh these functions we don't have anything to do with , only undo , you can undo a little uh piece of drawing. A blank new document for each person. Uh select a pen , eraser. Capture we don't have to do anything with. Uh then we've got our pen. This pen. It's really funny because you can draw with it on this page um in the  think it is form of.


He's also uh  That's about the new remote control. Uh project method um is uh there are three phases we are going through. First is functional des uh design , individual work , meetings. After the functional design , then the conceptual design and the detailed design.  I had some role indications on here. But I think you know it already by yourself. The Industrial Designer is going to work on the working design , uh components design and a bit of the look and feel design. Uh the User Interface Designer is going to do the technical function design , user interface concept and user interface design.  And the marketing expert is doing a little bit of user requirement specification , trend watching and project  uh product ev evaluation. So that's a bit what you're going to do. But that will be all worked out in uh other meetings.

Then we've got our first tool training.  We are going to work with a lot of high-tech tools here , so it's ab it's handy if we have a little bit of training first. As you can see we've got the smart boards here and here in the white board. Um in the white board here there's a little tool bar on this side. Here are some functions. You can save. N uh these functions we don't have anything to do with , only undo , you can undo a little uh piece of drawing. A blank new document for each person. Uh select a pen , eraser. Capture we don't have to do anything with. Uh then we've got our pen. This pen. It's really funny because you can draw with it on this page um in the  think it is form of.

You can also select the current colour and the line width. But then first you have to select the pen function.


Then we've got our first tool training.  We are going to work with a lot of high-tech tools here , so it's ab it's handy if we have a little bit of training first. As you can see we've got the smart boards here and here in the white board. Um in the white board here there's a little tool bar on this side. Here are some functions. You can save. N uh these functions we don't have anything to do with , only undo , you can undo a little uh piece of drawing. A blank new document for each person. Uh select a pen , eraser. Capture we don't have to do anything with. Uh then we've got our pen. This pen. It's really funny because you can draw with it on this page um in the  think it is form of.

You can also select the current colour and the line width. But then first you have to select the pen function.


You can also select the current colour and the line width. But then first you have to select the pen function.

But we're going to work with it in a minute. So okay. Uh that's very simple and it's easy to uh draw your findings and drawings on there.  Uh then a short thing about documents. We've got our shared folder , project  project  what was it ? Project documents  I think. But all you will found that already because there are a lot of documents in it already , so it will be okay. And these are available on the smart boards as well , so if you have a document you wanna show , just open it from the folder.


But we're going to work with it in a minute. So okay. Uh that's very simple and it's easy to uh draw your findings and drawings on there.  Uh then a short thing about documents. We've got our shared folder , project  project  what was it ? Project documents  I think. But all you will found that already because there are a lot of documents in it already , so it will be okay. And these are available on the smart boards as well , so if you have a document you wanna show , just open it from the folder.

Here is a simple tool bar. It's what I just said , it's save , print , move back or forward one page. You can switch between the different drawings. And then we're going to try out the white board.


But we're going to work with it in a minute. So okay. Uh that's very simple and it's easy to uh draw your findings and drawings on there.  Uh then a short thing about documents. We've got our shared folder , project  project  what was it ? Project documents  I think. But all you will found that already because there are a lot of documents in it already , so it will be okay. And these are available on the smart boards as well , so if you have a document you wanna show , just open it from the folder.

Here is a simple tool bar. It's what I just said , it's save , print , move back or forward one page. You can switch between the different drawings. And then we're going to try out the white board.

So as you can see we g all  going to draw a animal.  Just to uh uh just to get a bit familiar with it.


Here is a simple tool bar. It's what I just said , it's save , print , move back or forward one page. You can switch between the different drawings. And then we're going to try out the white board.

So as you can see we g all  going to draw a animal.  Just to uh uh just to get a bit familiar with it.


So as you can see we g all  going to draw a animal.  Just to uh uh just to get a bit familiar with it.

Is everybody  is anybody playing with the mouse ? No.


Is everybody  is anybody playing with the mouse ? No.


Is everybody  is anybody playing with the mouse ? No.

We're going to uh draw animal.  And uh just sum up a few of its favourite characteristics.


We're going to uh draw animal.  And uh just sum up a few of its favourite characteristics.

Um the only thing we have to uh look after is that we use different colours , and different line width.


We're going to uh draw animal.  And uh just sum up a few of its favourite characteristics.

Um the only thing we have to uh look after is that we use different colours , and different line width.

Uh there's  I can start from now. I will. You can use this pen by holding it like a like a little child. Because if you hold it like this , the sensors will get blocked and then the drawing won't get good.


Um the only thing we have to uh look after is that we use different colours , and different line width.

Uh there's  I can start from now. I will. You can use this pen by holding it like a like a little child. Because if you hold it like this , the sensors will get blocked and then the drawing won't get good.


Uh there's  I can start from now. I will. You can use this pen by holding it like a like a little child. Because if you hold it like this , the sensors will get blocked and then the drawing won't get good.

Another thing is you have to be uh a bit slow. 'Cause if you're going to draw like really fast then um the pen won't hold up. So we choose form of current colour uh I think grey is appropriate. Then the line width. I think seven will be nice. Now you'll see my drawing capabilities.


Another thing is you have to be uh a bit slow. 'Cause if you're going to draw like really fast then um the pen won't hold up. So we choose form of current colour uh I think grey is appropriate. Then the line width. I think seven will be nice. Now you'll see my drawing capabilities.

These are not very much , but uh  Uh , see you have to do it real slow.  Oh


These are not very much , but uh  Uh , see you have to do it real slow.  Oh

but I think his nose has to be a little bit


but I think his nose has to be a little bit


but I think his nose has to be a little bit

So what  yeah it's  this is bit of the swordfish.


So what  yeah it's  this is bit of the swordfish.


Woah.  Now we've got another function. We've got the eraser.


And I've got to write down a few of its characteristics. Uh is  They've got no text tool , no. Uh.  Okay.


And I've got to write down a few of its characteristics. Uh is  They've got no text tool , no. Uh.  Okay.

This is typically a undo action , I think.


And I've got to write down a few of its characteristics. Uh is  They've got no text tool , no. Uh.  Okay.

This is typically a undo action , I think.

Pen. Maybe you have to hold it a bit upside-down. I think that's it because if you wan ar are going to do it like this then it will be a stripe. But I don't know , I'm just trying.   This is not my work ,


This is typically a undo action , I think.

Pen. Maybe you have to hold it a bit upside-down. I think that's it because if you wan ar are going to do it like this then it will be a stripe. But I don't know , I'm just trying.   This is not my work ,


Pen. Maybe you have to hold it a bit upside-down. I think that's it because if you wan ar are going to do it like this then it will be a stripe. But I don't know , I'm just trying.   This is not my work ,


Uh. I think it's a  it wants to draw a  another animal ? I don't know. It lives for the fun. So  It's my characteristic uh characteristic about the dolphin. It lives for the fun. So now I'm gonna hand over the pen on the new blank sheet to you.


Thank you. Okay. Gonna use a different line width. And I'm gonna draw in black. There. 'Kay , I'm not much of an artist , but here we go.


Thank you. Okay. Gonna use a different line width. And I'm gonna draw in black. There. 'Kay , I'm not much of an artist , but here we go.

Maybe it's easier to draw the smaller line width , I think. Because this is going a lot better than uh I did.


Maybe it's easier to draw the smaller line width , I think. Because this is going a lot better than uh I did.


little blue dot they always get sprayed on their butts.


yeah , I see.  Um maybe you can also write your name somewhere.


Come on. You have to go really slow when you're writing.


Come on. You have to go really slow when you're writing.

And that's just a little me thingy. So. Guess I'll pass the pen to our User Interface Designer.


And that's just a little me thingy. So. Guess I'll pass the pen to our User Interface Designer.


And that's just a little me thingy. So. Guess I'll pass the pen to our User Interface Designer.

Okay. Um I'm just gonna draw its uh head , but mm  Let's see. Mm. Uh.  Okay.


Okay. Um I'm just gonna draw its uh head , but mm  Let's see. Mm. Uh.  Okay.


Just a  Mm. Guess. So uh   Yeah. That's enough.  Um , you say a blank ,


Is your cat , or did you find him on the street ?


Is your cat , or did you find him on the street ?

Well , it's supposed to be a cat. I like cats because uh they are uh independent.


Well , it's supposed to be a cat. I like cats because uh they are uh independent.

Okay. That's pretty clear. So everybody knows how to work with the white board now ? So if you have any ideas or if you wanna draw anything on the white board , just ask


Okay. That's pretty clear. So everybody knows how to work with the white board now ? So if you have any ideas or if you wanna draw anything on the white board , just ask


haunted white board.  So we've got the tool uh introduction. We move along to the project finance.


haunted white board.  So we've got the tool uh introduction. We move along to the project finance.

Um as you can see , we um for our remote control , a selling price is uh twenty five Euros. Our selling price. Uh our profit aim is fifty million Euros. Uh that's the least we have to get from our remote controls , so we have to work together to reach our aims. Uh we can do it international , so we have to focus on different kind of users , different kind of cultures , and different kind of trends as well. Um but that's all in the later stadium. Our production cost um can be maximal twelve and a half Euros , so that's also a point we have to keep in mind , that we won't make remote controls with small televisions inside , and stuff like that. It won't work. So just try to remember these points. Selling price twenty five , profit aims fifty million um , but more important is the int international market we're trying to focus on. And production cost uh maximal twelve and a half Euros. So that's leads us to our little discussion. We've got about five or ten minutes left for discussion. So I'm gonna sit down , I think. It's easier.


haunted white board.  So we've got the tool uh introduction. We move along to the project finance.

Um as you can see , we um for our remote control , a selling price is uh twenty five Euros. Our selling price. Uh our profit aim is fifty million Euros. Uh that's the least we have to get from our remote controls , so we have to work together to reach our aims. Uh we can do it international , so we have to focus on different kind of users , different kind of cultures , and different kind of trends as well. Um but that's all in the later stadium. Our production cost um can be maximal twelve and a half Euros , so that's also a point we have to keep in mind , that we won't make remote controls with small televisions inside , and stuff like that. It won't work. So just try to remember these points. Selling price twenty five , profit aims fifty million um , but more important is the int international market we're trying to focus on. And production cost uh maximal twelve and a half Euros. So that's leads us to our little discussion. We've got about five or ten minutes left for discussion. So I'm gonna sit down , I think. It's easier.

I've got a message. Five minutes. Okay ,


Um as you can see , we um for our remote control , a selling price is uh twenty five Euros. Our selling price. Uh our profit aim is fifty million Euros. Uh that's the least we have to get from our remote controls , so we have to work together to reach our aims. Uh we can do it international , so we have to focus on different kind of users , different kind of cultures , and different kind of trends as well. Um but that's all in the later stadium. Our production cost um can be maximal twelve and a half Euros , so that's also a point we have to keep in mind , that we won't make remote controls with small televisions inside , and stuff like that. It won't work. So just try to remember these points. Selling price twenty five , profit aims fifty million um , but more important is the int international market we're trying to focus on. And production cost uh maximal twelve and a half Euros. So that's leads us to our little discussion. We've got about five or ten minutes left for discussion. So I'm gonna sit down , I think. It's easier.

I've got a message. Five minutes. Okay ,


I've got a message. Five minutes. Okay ,


I've got a message. Five minutes. Okay ,

So just on a side note , why is it my laptop is only giving me a black screen ?


So just on a side note , why is it my laptop is only giving me a black screen ?


So just on a side note , why is it my laptop is only giving me a black screen ?

Uh maybe you have to say the magic word.


Uh maybe you have to say the magic word.


Maybe you have to just clap it down ? Mm back up again. No slide show. Hmm.


Maybe you have to just clap it down ? Mm back up again. No slide show. Hmm.

It's off. Now you have to put it back o Oh yeah. You'll be okay , I think.


It's off. Now you have to put it back o Oh yeah. You'll be okay , I think.


Nice. Okay.  But so mm does everybody has um experiences with uh remote controls , and I mean not the ordinary mote controls , but also a little bit different ones ? Like you can use for other ?


Well , we have a kind of broad T_V_ at home , and a D_V_D_ player , so we got like a lot of remote controls , one for the T_V_ , one for the video recorder , one for the D_V_D_ player.


Well , we have a kind of broad T_V_ at home , and a D_V_D_ player , so we got like a lot of remote controls , one for the T_V_ , one for the video recorder , one for the D_V_D_ player.

And I think it's  it would be best to just make one remote control that can operate them all.


And I think it's  it would be best to just make one remote control that can operate them all.


And I think it's  it would be best to just make one remote control that can operate them all.

I've I've got one at home. And you can uh program I think eight different devices in it , and you can use it for your television , anything else.


I've I've got one at home. And you can uh program I think eight different devices in it , and you can use it for your television , anything else.


I've I've got one at home. And you can uh program I think eight different devices in it , and you can use it for your television , anything else.

And it also operates on infra-red , so you have to got the little device inside your room , and then you can operate it from the third or th or second floor.


And it also operates on infra-red , so you have to got the little device inside your room , and then you can operate it from the third or th or second floor.


And it also operates on infra-red , so you have to got the little device inside your room , and then you can operate it from the third or th or second floor.

So that's pretty handy when you have a video recorder or D_V_D_ player downstairs and you've got a link to your T_V_ on the second floor. So that's a pretty handy um


So that's pretty handy when you have a video recorder or D_V_D_ player downstairs and you've got a link to your T_V_ on the second floor. So that's a pretty handy um


thing.  Um but only the I think that if you can put different kind of devices in one remote control , it makes it a lot easier as well. It's uh


uh and we can maybe see if we can do something with the infra-red. But I don't know if that will exceed the production costs. So that uh that's something we have to find out , I think.


uh and we can maybe see if we can do something with the infra-red. But I don't know if that will exceed the production costs. So that uh that's something we have to find out , I think.

Yeah. But that would be really good if we could do that.


uh and we can maybe see if we can do something with the infra-red. But I don't know if that will exceed the production costs. So that uh that's something we have to find out , I think.

Yeah. But that would be really good if we could do that.

And other functions for a remote control ? Maybe we can make it uh uh


Yeah. But that would be really good if we could do that.

And other functions for a remote control ? Maybe we can make it uh uh


And other functions for a remote control ? Maybe we can make it uh uh


Waterproof. Okay. So these are our um a few things we can think of. Um I will put the minutes from this meeting uh in our project folder.


Waterproof. Okay. So these are our um a few things we can think of. Um I will put the minutes from this meeting uh in our project folder.

Yeah , one other little thing. Thought it might be handy to put a battery status display on it.


Yeah , one other little thing. Thought it might be handy to put a battery status display on it.


how much is left in the battery. But they'll also really drag up the production costs , so think we'll have to see about that too.


But maybe just a little LED , I don't know.


But maybe just a little LED , I don't know.

That's an idea as well. Other ideas ? Quick ideas.


That's an idea as well. Other ideas ? Quick ideas.


I call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number 22 of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. A reminder to all members that in order to avoid issues with sound, members participating in person should not also be connected to the video conference. For those joining via video conference, I would like to remind you that, when speaking, you should be on the same channel as the language you are speaking. As usual, please direct your remarks through the chair. I understand we don't have any ministerial announcements today, so we'll proceed to presenting petitions. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. For members participating in person, we ask that they please come and drop the signed certificate off at the table once the petition is presented. The first petition will be presented by Ms.May.

Mr. Chair, it's an honour to rise in meeting number 22 of the COVID-19 committee, otherwise known as something like the House of Commons. I'm here to present two petitions containing hundreds of signatures on the issue of the treatment of Falun Gong practitioners by the People's Republic of China, particularly the practice that's alleged of involuntary organ harvesting. The petitioners ask the Government of Canada to condemn this practice and to publicly call for an end to the persecution of Falun Gong in the People's Republic of China. The second petition is from residents throughout SaanichGulf Islands concerned about what was, at the time this petition was submitted, a future problem. It remains an issue, and I present it on behalf of petitioners who wish the Government of Canada not to put public funds into purchasing or maintaining the Trans Mountain pipeline or towards any expansion of the pipeline.


Mr. Chair, it's an honour to rise in meeting number 22 of the COVID-19 committee, otherwise known as something like the House of Commons. I'm here to present two petitions containing hundreds of signatures on the issue of the treatment of Falun Gong practitioners by the People's Republic of China, particularly the practice that's alleged of involuntary organ harvesting. The petitioners ask the Government of Canada to condemn this practice and to publicly call for an end to the persecution of Falun Gong in the People's Republic of China. The second petition is from residents throughout SaanichGulf Islands concerned about what was, at the time this petition was submitted, a future problem. It remains an issue, and I present it on behalf of petitioners who wish the Government of Canada not to put public funds into purchasing or maintaining the Trans Mountain pipeline or towards any expansion of the pipeline.

Mr. Chair, I rise to table two petitions. The first petition deals with the COVID-19 situation. The petitioners note the pandemic is having a devastating impact on many Canadians nationwide, especially those who have low to modest income, small business gig workers, freelancers, artists, film industry workers, non-salaried workers and individuals on fixed incomes such as seniors and those on disability. It further notes that rent, mortgage and utility payments are due at the end of each month, putting countless Canadians at risk of losing their housing. It is paramount there be safe self-isolation opportunities for all individuals in this country. To that end, the petitioners are calling for the government to immediately enact a nationwide rent freeze, eviction freeze, mortgage freeze and utility freeze, enforce mortgage deferrals for homeowners without penalty or interest charges from financial institutions and provide direct assistance in the form of a monthly, universal, direct payment of $2,000 per month for all, with an additional $250 per child immediately. The second petition deals with the Trans Mountain pipeline expansion. These petitioners join the hundreds of thousands of people who are opposed to the expansion. Trans Mountain, in building the pipeline, brings massive environmental and economic risk with no substantial benefit to British Columbia or to local residents. Approximately 40,000 barrels of oil have already leaked from existing Kinder Morgan pipelines, including two major spills in Burnaby since 2007. I might note, Mr. Chair, that just this past weekend there was yet another spill to the tune of 1,195 barrels here in British Columbia. There is no known scientific technology to clean up the bitumen when there is a spill, and the number of tankers would go from eight to 34 per month into the Burrard Inlet. It puts at risk many residential neighbourhoods and the traditional territories of at least 15 first nations.


Mr. Chair, it's an honour to rise in meeting number 22 of the COVID-19 committee, otherwise known as something like the House of Commons. I'm here to present two petitions containing hundreds of signatures on the issue of the treatment of Falun Gong practitioners by the People's Republic of China, particularly the practice that's alleged of involuntary organ harvesting. The petitioners ask the Government of Canada to condemn this practice and to publicly call for an end to the persecution of Falun Gong in the People's Republic of China. The second petition is from residents throughout SaanichGulf Islands concerned about what was, at the time this petition was submitted, a future problem. It remains an issue, and I present it on behalf of petitioners who wish the Government of Canada not to put public funds into purchasing or maintaining the Trans Mountain pipeline or towards any expansion of the pipeline.

Mr. Chair, I rise to table two petitions. The first petition deals with the COVID-19 situation. The petitioners note the pandemic is having a devastating impact on many Canadians nationwide, especially those who have low to modest income, small business gig workers, freelancers, artists, film industry workers, non-salaried workers and individuals on fixed incomes such as seniors and those on disability. It further notes that rent, mortgage and utility payments are due at the end of each month, putting countless Canadians at risk of losing their housing. It is paramount there be safe self-isolation opportunities for all individuals in this country. To that end, the petitioners are calling for the government to immediately enact a nationwide rent freeze, eviction freeze, mortgage freeze and utility freeze, enforce mortgage deferrals for homeowners without penalty or interest charges from financial institutions and provide direct assistance in the form of a monthly, universal, direct payment of $2,000 per month for all, with an additional $250 per child immediately. The second petition deals with the Trans Mountain pipeline expansion. These petitioners join the hundreds of thousands of people who are opposed to the expansion. Trans Mountain, in building the pipeline, brings massive environmental and economic risk with no substantial benefit to British Columbia or to local residents. Approximately 40,000 barrels of oil have already leaked from existing Kinder Morgan pipelines, including two major spills in Burnaby since 2007. I might note, Mr. Chair, that just this past weekend there was yet another spill to the tune of 1,195 barrels here in British Columbia. There is no known scientific technology to clean up the bitumen when there is a spill, and the number of tankers would go from eight to 34 per month into the Burrard Inlet. It puts at risk many residential neighbourhoods and the traditional territories of at least 15 first nations.

May I interrupt for a moment, Ms. Kwan. I want to remind all members in the House that when presenting a petition, the idea is to be as concise as possible. Ms. Kwan, I'll let you wrap up, please.


Mr. Chair, I rise to table two petitions. The first petition deals with the COVID-19 situation. The petitioners note the pandemic is having a devastating impact on many Canadians nationwide, especially those who have low to modest income, small business gig workers, freelancers, artists, film industry workers, non-salaried workers and individuals on fixed incomes such as seniors and those on disability. It further notes that rent, mortgage and utility payments are due at the end of each month, putting countless Canadians at risk of losing their housing. It is paramount there be safe self-isolation opportunities for all individuals in this country. To that end, the petitioners are calling for the government to immediately enact a nationwide rent freeze, eviction freeze, mortgage freeze and utility freeze, enforce mortgage deferrals for homeowners without penalty or interest charges from financial institutions and provide direct assistance in the form of a monthly, universal, direct payment of $2,000 per month for all, with an additional $250 per child immediately. The second petition deals with the Trans Mountain pipeline expansion. These petitioners join the hundreds of thousands of people who are opposed to the expansion. Trans Mountain, in building the pipeline, brings massive environmental and economic risk with no substantial benefit to British Columbia or to local residents. Approximately 40,000 barrels of oil have already leaked from existing Kinder Morgan pipelines, including two major spills in Burnaby since 2007. I might note, Mr. Chair, that just this past weekend there was yet another spill to the tune of 1,195 barrels here in British Columbia. There is no known scientific technology to clean up the bitumen when there is a spill, and the number of tankers would go from eight to 34 per month into the Burrard Inlet. It puts at risk many residential neighbourhoods and the traditional territories of at least 15 first nations.

May I interrupt for a moment, Ms. Kwan. I want to remind all members in the House that when presenting a petition, the idea is to be as concise as possible. Ms. Kwan, I'll let you wrap up, please.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. The petitioners are calling for the government to immediately act to prevent this new oil pipeline from proceeding through British Columbia.


May I interrupt for a moment, Ms. Kwan. I want to remind all members in the House that when presenting a petition, the idea is to be as concise as possible. Ms. Kwan, I'll let you wrap up, please.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. The petitioners are calling for the government to immediately act to prevent this new oil pipeline from proceeding through British Columbia.

Mr. Chair, I have four petitions to present today. The first petition reflects the outrage of my constituents at the ever-expanding order in council from the government banning more and more firearms. In particular, the petitioners highlight the failure of the government to act on the issue of illegal guns. The petitioners note that virtually all violent crimes committed in Canada, including the recent shooting in Nova Scotia, involve illegal firearms in the hands of those who are already not permitted to possess them. The petition has two asks. First of all, it asks that we reverse the order in council banning certain firearms, but also that we propose measures that will effectively address the illegal use of firearms by criminals while respecting the rights of law-abiding citizens. It also asks that we ensure that substantial changes to firearms laws in future actually be made by Parliament, not by the government acting in an unaccountable manner. The second petition deals with Bill C-8, which is the government's bill around conversion therapy. The petitioners support efforts to ban conversion therapy. They express concern about problems in the wording of the definition used in the legislation. They're asking the government to support amendments to fix the definition to address the issue of conversion therapy and ensure that the definition is correct and doesn't criminalize certain forms of counselling that individuals may voluntarily enter into. The third petition is regarding Bill S-204, a bill in the Senate that seeks to make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad to receive an organ without consent, dealing especially with the horrific practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking in China. The petitioners are supportive of Bill S-204 and want to see it move forward. The final petition is with respect to Bill C-7. There's been much discussion in this House about the need to do better in terms of long-term care. Rather than working to do better in long-term care, unfortunately we've seen the government removing vital safeguards in the area of euthanasia. I think our focus should be on assisting life rather than removing safeguards that are required in association with the euthanasia regime. The petitioners are particularly concerned about the government's plan to remove a 10-day reflection period that normally takes place. That period can already be waived under certain circumstances, but Bill C-7 proposes to remove it entirely as well as reduce the number of witnesses involved. The petitioners are quite concerned about what's going on in Bill C-7 and call for it to be stopped or amended.


Thank you, Mr. Chair. The petitioners are calling for the government to immediately act to prevent this new oil pipeline from proceeding through British Columbia.

Mr. Chair, I have four petitions to present today. The first petition reflects the outrage of my constituents at the ever-expanding order in council from the government banning more and more firearms. In particular, the petitioners highlight the failure of the government to act on the issue of illegal guns. The petitioners note that virtually all violent crimes committed in Canada, including the recent shooting in Nova Scotia, involve illegal firearms in the hands of those who are already not permitted to possess them. The petition has two asks. First of all, it asks that we reverse the order in council banning certain firearms, but also that we propose measures that will effectively address the illegal use of firearms by criminals while respecting the rights of law-abiding citizens. It also asks that we ensure that substantial changes to firearms laws in future actually be made by Parliament, not by the government acting in an unaccountable manner. The second petition deals with Bill C-8, which is the government's bill around conversion therapy. The petitioners support efforts to ban conversion therapy. They express concern about problems in the wording of the definition used in the legislation. They're asking the government to support amendments to fix the definition to address the issue of conversion therapy and ensure that the definition is correct and doesn't criminalize certain forms of counselling that individuals may voluntarily enter into. The third petition is regarding Bill S-204, a bill in the Senate that seeks to make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad to receive an organ without consent, dealing especially with the horrific practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking in China. The petitioners are supportive of Bill S-204 and want to see it move forward. The final petition is with respect to Bill C-7. There's been much discussion in this House about the need to do better in terms of long-term care. Rather than working to do better in long-term care, unfortunately we've seen the government removing vital safeguards in the area of euthanasia. I think our focus should be on assisting life rather than removing safeguards that are required in association with the euthanasia regime. The petitioners are particularly concerned about the government's plan to remove a 10-day reflection period that normally takes place. That period can already be waived under certain circumstances, but Bill C-7 proposes to remove it entirely as well as reduce the number of witnesses involved. The petitioners are quite concerned about what's going on in Bill C-7 and call for it to be stopped or amended.

Presenting petitions. We'll proceed to statements by members. We'll start off with Mr. Manly.


Mr. Chair, I have four petitions to present today. The first petition reflects the outrage of my constituents at the ever-expanding order in council from the government banning more and more firearms. In particular, the petitioners highlight the failure of the government to act on the issue of illegal guns. The petitioners note that virtually all violent crimes committed in Canada, including the recent shooting in Nova Scotia, involve illegal firearms in the hands of those who are already not permitted to possess them. The petition has two asks. First of all, it asks that we reverse the order in council banning certain firearms, but also that we propose measures that will effectively address the illegal use of firearms by criminals while respecting the rights of law-abiding citizens. It also asks that we ensure that substantial changes to firearms laws in future actually be made by Parliament, not by the government acting in an unaccountable manner. The second petition deals with Bill C-8, which is the government's bill around conversion therapy. The petitioners support efforts to ban conversion therapy. They express concern about problems in the wording of the definition used in the legislation. They're asking the government to support amendments to fix the definition to address the issue of conversion therapy and ensure that the definition is correct and doesn't criminalize certain forms of counselling that individuals may voluntarily enter into. The third petition is regarding Bill S-204, a bill in the Senate that seeks to make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad to receive an organ without consent, dealing especially with the horrific practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking in China. The petitioners are supportive of Bill S-204 and want to see it move forward. The final petition is with respect to Bill C-7. There's been much discussion in this House about the need to do better in terms of long-term care. Rather than working to do better in long-term care, unfortunately we've seen the government removing vital safeguards in the area of euthanasia. I think our focus should be on assisting life rather than removing safeguards that are required in association with the euthanasia regime. The petitioners are particularly concerned about the government's plan to remove a 10-day reflection period that normally takes place. That period can already be waived under certain circumstances, but Bill C-7 proposes to remove it entirely as well as reduce the number of witnesses involved. The petitioners are quite concerned about what's going on in Bill C-7 and call for it to be stopped or amended.

Presenting petitions. We'll proceed to statements by members. We'll start off with Mr. Manly.

Mr. Chair, we are in the midst of a global pandemic and an economic shock. Recent events have ripped open the wound of systemic racism in our country. Racialized and marginalized communities have been disproportionally affected by the pandemic. Thousands of seniors in long-term care facilities have died. It is clear that we need system change. In the past, governments have bailed out banks and corporations because they were too big to fail. It is time to bail out humanity and the planet. No one will be immune from the threat of climate change and mass extinction. Both are the result of the exploitation of the natural world in the name of the economy. Humans created the economy. We can choose to change it. We must protect our environment or perish. COVID-19 has demonstrated that together we can take courageous action for the common good. We need to do the same for the climate crisis, because humanity and our planet are too big to fail.


Presenting petitions. We'll proceed to statements by members. We'll start off with Mr. Manly.

Mr. Chair, we are in the midst of a global pandemic and an economic shock. Recent events have ripped open the wound of systemic racism in our country. Racialized and marginalized communities have been disproportionally affected by the pandemic. Thousands of seniors in long-term care facilities have died. It is clear that we need system change. In the past, governments have bailed out banks and corporations because they were too big to fail. It is time to bail out humanity and the planet. No one will be immune from the threat of climate change and mass extinction. Both are the result of the exploitation of the natural world in the name of the economy. Humans created the economy. We can choose to change it. We must protect our environment or perish. COVID-19 has demonstrated that together we can take courageous action for the common good. We need to do the same for the climate crisis, because humanity and our planet are too big to fail.

Mr. Speaker, today marks World Elder Abuse Awareness Day. Underestimated and under-reported, elder abuse exists across the world. At risk of neglect and assault, many of the most vulnerable older persons reside in our long-term care facilities. They are the seniors who have built our country and shaped our communities, who have shown us resilience, courage and selflessness, who have made us stronger, and whose work and teachings continue to inspire us. They are parents and grandparents, brothers and sisters, friends and mentors. We have not been there for them in the same way they've been there for us throughout their lives. The Canadian Forces report, alongside the climbing disproportionate death toll in our long-term care facilities, has reconfirmed the ugly, indefensible reality of elder abuse and neglect in Canada. In my community, we mourn the deaths of 68 seniors from one long-term care facility alone, Camilla Care. We must make the same unwavering commitment to older persons as they have shown to us. We must protect and uphold their human rights. We must do better.


Mr. Chair, we are in the midst of a global pandemic and an economic shock. Recent events have ripped open the wound of systemic racism in our country. Racialized and marginalized communities have been disproportionally affected by the pandemic. Thousands of seniors in long-term care facilities have died. It is clear that we need system change. In the past, governments have bailed out banks and corporations because they were too big to fail. It is time to bail out humanity and the planet. No one will be immune from the threat of climate change and mass extinction. Both are the result of the exploitation of the natural world in the name of the economy. Humans created the economy. We can choose to change it. We must protect our environment or perish. COVID-19 has demonstrated that together we can take courageous action for the common good. We need to do the same for the climate crisis, because humanity and our planet are too big to fail.

Mr. Speaker, today marks World Elder Abuse Awareness Day. Underestimated and under-reported, elder abuse exists across the world. At risk of neglect and assault, many of the most vulnerable older persons reside in our long-term care facilities. They are the seniors who have built our country and shaped our communities, who have shown us resilience, courage and selflessness, who have made us stronger, and whose work and teachings continue to inspire us. They are parents and grandparents, brothers and sisters, friends and mentors. We have not been there for them in the same way they've been there for us throughout their lives. The Canadian Forces report, alongside the climbing disproportionate death toll in our long-term care facilities, has reconfirmed the ugly, indefensible reality of elder abuse and neglect in Canada. In my community, we mourn the deaths of 68 seniors from one long-term care facility alone, Camilla Care. We must make the same unwavering commitment to older persons as they have shown to us. We must protect and uphold their human rights. We must do better.

Before proceeding, I just want to bring up to the members in the background that we want to keep it as simple and as parliamentary as possible in keeping it neutral. We'll now move to Mr. Barrett.


Mr. Speaker, today marks World Elder Abuse Awareness Day. Underestimated and under-reported, elder abuse exists across the world. At risk of neglect and assault, many of the most vulnerable older persons reside in our long-term care facilities. They are the seniors who have built our country and shaped our communities, who have shown us resilience, courage and selflessness, who have made us stronger, and whose work and teachings continue to inspire us. They are parents and grandparents, brothers and sisters, friends and mentors. We have not been there for them in the same way they've been there for us throughout their lives. The Canadian Forces report, alongside the climbing disproportionate death toll in our long-term care facilities, has reconfirmed the ugly, indefensible reality of elder abuse and neglect in Canada. In my community, we mourn the deaths of 68 seniors from one long-term care facility alone, Camilla Care. We must make the same unwavering commitment to older persons as they have shown to us. We must protect and uphold their human rights. We must do better.

Before proceeding, I just want to bring up to the members in the background that we want to keep it as simple and as parliamentary as possible in keeping it neutral. We'll now move to Mr. Barrett.

During these trying times, the residents of LeedsGrenvilleThousand Islands and Rideau Lakes have risen to the challenge. They've made sacrifices and gone above and beyond to make the lives of their neighbours better and to keep our communities safe. It would be impossible to list everyone who has emerged as a community hero, but I'd like to highlight a few, like Lily, an eight-year-old from Elgin who raised funds for her local food bank by building and selling squirrel picnic tables, and Louise Boardman from Spencerville who's making masks for long-term care facilities and selling others in support of the Breast Cancer Action centre. The Knights of Columbus in Prescott raised funds and are distributing some $27,000 in support of charitable groups throughout the region. The Knights of Columbus in Kemptville are working overtime operating the local food bank. Who can forget our top-notch health care workers like Hannah and Mary at the Brockville COVID-19 testing centre? It is the people of LeedsGrenvilleThousand Islands and Rideau Lakes that make it so great. To everyone working to make a difference and to all of our essential workers, thank you.


Before proceeding, I just want to bring up to the members in the background that we want to keep it as simple and as parliamentary as possible in keeping it neutral. We'll now move to Mr. Barrett.

During these trying times, the residents of LeedsGrenvilleThousand Islands and Rideau Lakes have risen to the challenge. They've made sacrifices and gone above and beyond to make the lives of their neighbours better and to keep our communities safe. It would be impossible to list everyone who has emerged as a community hero, but I'd like to highlight a few, like Lily, an eight-year-old from Elgin who raised funds for her local food bank by building and selling squirrel picnic tables, and Louise Boardman from Spencerville who's making masks for long-term care facilities and selling others in support of the Breast Cancer Action centre. The Knights of Columbus in Prescott raised funds and are distributing some $27,000 in support of charitable groups throughout the region. The Knights of Columbus in Kemptville are working overtime operating the local food bank. Who can forget our top-notch health care workers like Hannah and Mary at the Brockville COVID-19 testing centre? It is the people of LeedsGrenvilleThousand Islands and Rideau Lakes that make it so great. To everyone working to make a difference and to all of our essential workers, thank you.

Mr. Chair, the Indian Act enshrined racism into Canadian law in 1876, and, through residential schools, the child welfare system, our legal system and our police, we criminalized and tore apart indigenous peoples. The deaths of Chantel Moore and Rodney Levi and the assault on Chief Allan Adam are recent examples of systemic racism within the RCMP. Sadly, the RCMP leadership has failed to acknowledge this reality and its root causes. These same systems negatively impact black Canadians. Anti-black racism has resulted in more young black men being jailed, children being streamed or excluded from schools and negative police interaction due to profiling. Black lives matter. No single Canadian is responsible for the prevalence of systemic racism; we all are. Collectively we build institutions that discriminate based on race. It is now time to reimagine and rework our institutions, starting with our police, to ensure that all Canadians can achieve their truest potential.