As I said, I hope that it becomes the norm that at post-16 level students take the Welsh baccalaureate, because I think it is of huge value. There may be circumstances that mean that the well-being of that student could be compromised by making them do this qualification. There could be a whole host of reasons why it is not suitable for a child to take this qualification, and therefore there has to be some flexibility in the system, and we have to trust in the professional leadership of our colleges and our headteachers to make that decision in the round, with the pupil and their parents, about what's in the best interests of those pupils. But I do think a situation where, perhaps, an entire cohort of students are suddenly deemed it's unsuitable for, I find that very hard to believe, but there could well be circumstances, for a whole host of reasons, where that particular qualification—. And we would not want to jeopardise the well-being of a student by forcing them to do a qualification that wasn't in their best interests, and we need to have the flexibility in the system to allow school leaders to make that decision, but they should also then be accountable for that decision.

But do you recognise there's maybe a case for strengthening guidance, then, on this? Because, we've had teachers tell us that they have insisted on pupils doing this, and then the parents have rung Welsh Government, and they felt undermined, then. So, do you think there's a case for strengthening the guidance or clarifying what the position is to schools and colleges?

Very happy to do that. As I said, from time to time, parents do indeed contact Welsh Government, and in that contact there is a whole variety of reasons why that parent feels the Welsh baccalaureate is not in the best interests of those children. Sometimes, that can go from the extreme of, 'I want my child to do five A-levels and I think that's in their best interest to get into Oxford and Cambridge'—I would argue that that is a myth, around the need to do that many A-levels—through to, 'Actually, my child has a range of learning needs, and actually this qualification isn't suited to them. Making them go out and do voluntary work in an organisation with people that don't understand their needs and they are unfamiliar with could jeopardise my child's ability and my child's well-being.' So, there's a whole range of reasons why sometimes people have concerns about the Welsh baccalaureate. Some of those are very legitimate concerns. Sometimes, they're based on information that, perhaps, isn't correct, or the myths around, 'I need to do five A-levels if I want to go to Cambridge'. Schools, then, have some flexibility. I'm aware of a case last year where a parent felt very concerned that the students were also having to study for entrance exams into Cambridge. A conversation was had with the school. They were able to allow the student extra time to study for that qualification and pick up their Welsh bac work later on in the academic year. So, they were able to be flexible in the delivery of that qualification. I'm very pleased to say that we've had correspondence from said parent to say that his son went on to do exceptionally well in his A-levels and his Welsh baccalaureate and gained his place at Cambridge University, and that's about having the flexibility, even at a school level, to be able to respond to the needs of individual students.

Okay. Just one final question from me on this, then. As you know, mental health and the emotional health of our children and young people is a very core issue for this committee, and Estyn have said that studying the skills challenge certificate alongside three or four A-levels is a significant factor in causing stress for some young people. How do you respond to that?


But do you recognise there's maybe a case for strengthening guidance, then, on this? Because, we've had teachers tell us that they have insisted on pupils doing this, and then the parents have rung Welsh Government, and they felt undermined, then. So, do you think there's a case for strengthening the guidance or clarifying what the position is to schools and colleges?

Very happy to do that. As I said, from time to time, parents do indeed contact Welsh Government, and in that contact there is a whole variety of reasons why that parent feels the Welsh baccalaureate is not in the best interests of those children. Sometimes, that can go from the extreme of, 'I want my child to do five A-levels and I think that's in their best interest to get into Oxford and Cambridge'—I would argue that that is a myth, around the need to do that many A-levels—through to, 'Actually, my child has a range of learning needs, and actually this qualification isn't suited to them. Making them go out and do voluntary work in an organisation with people that don't understand their needs and they are unfamiliar with could jeopardise my child's ability and my child's well-being.' So, there's a whole range of reasons why sometimes people have concerns about the Welsh baccalaureate. Some of those are very legitimate concerns. Sometimes, they're based on information that, perhaps, isn't correct, or the myths around, 'I need to do five A-levels if I want to go to Cambridge'. Schools, then, have some flexibility. I'm aware of a case last year where a parent felt very concerned that the students were also having to study for entrance exams into Cambridge. A conversation was had with the school. They were able to allow the student extra time to study for that qualification and pick up their Welsh bac work later on in the academic year. So, they were able to be flexible in the delivery of that qualification. I'm very pleased to say that we've had correspondence from said parent to say that his son went on to do exceptionally well in his A-levels and his Welsh baccalaureate and gained his place at Cambridge University, and that's about having the flexibility, even at a school level, to be able to respond to the needs of individual students.

Okay. Just one final question from me on this, then. As you know, mental health and the emotional health of our children and young people is a very core issue for this committee, and Estyn have said that studying the skills challenge certificate alongside three or four A-levels is a significant factor in causing stress for some young people. How do you respond to that?

Well, I would be the first to acknowledge that studying A-levels can be a very stressful time. That's because students, rightly, regard those qualifications as high stakes and as having a profound effect on the opportunities for the rest of their lives. So, the mere fact of studying A-levels can be a really stressful time for students because they understand how important they are, and students want to do well and they want to be able to move on to the next stage, either of work or of university. We also know—and Estyn reflects this—that students are also often trying to combine that with part-time jobs. These students are of an age when they want to be out and about and earning some of their own money and being a bit more independent. So, that adds added pressure to them. So, undoubtedly, this is a stressful time in young people's lives and we need to ensure that there is support in school to support young people through this time to make sure that students are making the right choices in terms of their A-levels and the qualifications that they're doing so they're not having to do more because they're under the impression that, by doing more, that's going to make them more likely to succeed. What we know, actually, is it's about the quality of what you do rather than the entirety of what you do that's important to universities, and we need to make sure that students are getting really good information, advice and guidance and support at what is a challenging time in their lives, because, of course, it comes on top of working really hard for your GCSEs and then you have, the following year, AS-level examinations and A-level examinations after that. So, these are stressful times in children's lives and they realise the importance of these as high-stakes qualifications.


Very happy to do that. As I said, from time to time, parents do indeed contact Welsh Government, and in that contact there is a whole variety of reasons why that parent feels the Welsh baccalaureate is not in the best interests of those children. Sometimes, that can go from the extreme of, 'I want my child to do five A-levels and I think that's in their best interest to get into Oxford and Cambridge'—I would argue that that is a myth, around the need to do that many A-levels—through to, 'Actually, my child has a range of learning needs, and actually this qualification isn't suited to them. Making them go out and do voluntary work in an organisation with people that don't understand their needs and they are unfamiliar with could jeopardise my child's ability and my child's well-being.' So, there's a whole range of reasons why sometimes people have concerns about the Welsh baccalaureate. Some of those are very legitimate concerns. Sometimes, they're based on information that, perhaps, isn't correct, or the myths around, 'I need to do five A-levels if I want to go to Cambridge'. Schools, then, have some flexibility. I'm aware of a case last year where a parent felt very concerned that the students were also having to study for entrance exams into Cambridge. A conversation was had with the school. They were able to allow the student extra time to study for that qualification and pick up their Welsh bac work later on in the academic year. So, they were able to be flexible in the delivery of that qualification. I'm very pleased to say that we've had correspondence from said parent to say that his son went on to do exceptionally well in his A-levels and his Welsh baccalaureate and gained his place at Cambridge University, and that's about having the flexibility, even at a school level, to be able to respond to the needs of individual students.

Okay. Just one final question from me on this, then. As you know, mental health and the emotional health of our children and young people is a very core issue for this committee, and Estyn have said that studying the skills challenge certificate alongside three or four A-levels is a significant factor in causing stress for some young people. How do you respond to that?

Well, I would be the first to acknowledge that studying A-levels can be a very stressful time. That's because students, rightly, regard those qualifications as high stakes and as having a profound effect on the opportunities for the rest of their lives. So, the mere fact of studying A-levels can be a really stressful time for students because they understand how important they are, and students want to do well and they want to be able to move on to the next stage, either of work or of university. We also know—and Estyn reflects this—that students are also often trying to combine that with part-time jobs. These students are of an age when they want to be out and about and earning some of their own money and being a bit more independent. So, that adds added pressure to them. So, undoubtedly, this is a stressful time in young people's lives and we need to ensure that there is support in school to support young people through this time to make sure that students are making the right choices in terms of their A-levels and the qualifications that they're doing so they're not having to do more because they're under the impression that, by doing more, that's going to make them more likely to succeed. What we know, actually, is it's about the quality of what you do rather than the entirety of what you do that's important to universities, and we need to make sure that students are getting really good information, advice and guidance and support at what is a challenging time in their lives, because, of course, it comes on top of working really hard for your GCSEs and then you have, the following year, AS-level examinations and A-level examinations after that. So, these are stressful times in children's lives and they realise the importance of these as high-stakes qualifications.

Okay, thank you. The next questions are from Janet Finch-Saunders.


Okay. Just one final question from me on this, then. As you know, mental health and the emotional health of our children and young people is a very core issue for this committee, and Estyn have said that studying the skills challenge certificate alongside three or four A-levels is a significant factor in causing stress for some young people. How do you respond to that?

Well, I would be the first to acknowledge that studying A-levels can be a very stressful time. That's because students, rightly, regard those qualifications as high stakes and as having a profound effect on the opportunities for the rest of their lives. So, the mere fact of studying A-levels can be a really stressful time for students because they understand how important they are, and students want to do well and they want to be able to move on to the next stage, either of work or of university. We also know—and Estyn reflects this—that students are also often trying to combine that with part-time jobs. These students are of an age when they want to be out and about and earning some of their own money and being a bit more independent. So, that adds added pressure to them. So, undoubtedly, this is a stressful time in young people's lives and we need to ensure that there is support in school to support young people through this time to make sure that students are making the right choices in terms of their A-levels and the qualifications that they're doing so they're not having to do more because they're under the impression that, by doing more, that's going to make them more likely to succeed. What we know, actually, is it's about the quality of what you do rather than the entirety of what you do that's important to universities, and we need to make sure that students are getting really good information, advice and guidance and support at what is a challenging time in their lives, because, of course, it comes on top of working really hard for your GCSEs and then you have, the following year, AS-level examinations and A-level examinations after that. So, these are stressful times in children's lives and they realise the importance of these as high-stakes qualifications.

Okay, thank you. The next questions are from Janet Finch-Saunders.

This is about the wider impact of studying the Welsh bac on other curriculum subjects and education provision, and we've had representations in that it is causing some concerns. So, do you have any concerns about the effect that the Welsh bac may be having on wider education provisions, such as the narrowing of the curriculum at key stage 4?


Well, I would be the first to acknowledge that studying A-levels can be a very stressful time. That's because students, rightly, regard those qualifications as high stakes and as having a profound effect on the opportunities for the rest of their lives. So, the mere fact of studying A-levels can be a really stressful time for students because they understand how important they are, and students want to do well and they want to be able to move on to the next stage, either of work or of university. We also know—and Estyn reflects this—that students are also often trying to combine that with part-time jobs. These students are of an age when they want to be out and about and earning some of their own money and being a bit more independent. So, that adds added pressure to them. So, undoubtedly, this is a stressful time in young people's lives and we need to ensure that there is support in school to support young people through this time to make sure that students are making the right choices in terms of their A-levels and the qualifications that they're doing so they're not having to do more because they're under the impression that, by doing more, that's going to make them more likely to succeed. What we know, actually, is it's about the quality of what you do rather than the entirety of what you do that's important to universities, and we need to make sure that students are getting really good information, advice and guidance and support at what is a challenging time in their lives, because, of course, it comes on top of working really hard for your GCSEs and then you have, the following year, AS-level examinations and A-level examinations after that. So, these are stressful times in children's lives and they realise the importance of these as high-stakes qualifications.

Okay, thank you. The next questions are from Janet Finch-Saunders.

This is about the wider impact of studying the Welsh bac on other curriculum subjects and education provision, and we've had representations in that it is causing some concerns. So, do you have any concerns about the effect that the Welsh bac may be having on wider education provisions, such as the narrowing of the curriculum at key stage 4?

No. Obviously, schools are responsible for planning their local curriculum offer, and that needs to meet the needs of their learners, and it also needs to meet the needs of the Learning and Skills (Wales) Measure 2009. So, there should be a wide variety of choices available. I believe that the skills challenge certificate actually does ensure that there is a broad curriculum and that children are exposed to different learning opportunities. And so, rather than narrowing it, I believe the Welsh bac helps us to make sure that there is an expansive curriculum, and that lots of different issues are explored in the skills challenge certificate that ensure not just academic skills are developed, but, actually, knowledge and skills of a wider range of subjects about you and your place in the world is available via this qualification.


Okay, thank you. The next questions are from Janet Finch-Saunders.

This is about the wider impact of studying the Welsh bac on other curriculum subjects and education provision, and we've had representations in that it is causing some concerns. So, do you have any concerns about the effect that the Welsh bac may be having on wider education provisions, such as the narrowing of the curriculum at key stage 4?

No. Obviously, schools are responsible for planning their local curriculum offer, and that needs to meet the needs of their learners, and it also needs to meet the needs of the Learning and Skills (Wales) Measure 2009. So, there should be a wide variety of choices available. I believe that the skills challenge certificate actually does ensure that there is a broad curriculum and that children are exposed to different learning opportunities. And so, rather than narrowing it, I believe the Welsh bac helps us to make sure that there is an expansive curriculum, and that lots of different issues are explored in the skills challenge certificate that ensure not just academic skills are developed, but, actually, knowledge and skills of a wider range of subjects about you and your place in the world is available via this qualification.

Okay, thanks. And then, to what extent do you think that the Welsh bac should be give priority over other curriculum subjects?


This is about the wider impact of studying the Welsh bac on other curriculum subjects and education provision, and we've had representations in that it is causing some concerns. So, do you have any concerns about the effect that the Welsh bac may be having on wider education provisions, such as the narrowing of the curriculum at key stage 4?

No. Obviously, schools are responsible for planning their local curriculum offer, and that needs to meet the needs of their learners, and it also needs to meet the needs of the Learning and Skills (Wales) Measure 2009. So, there should be a wide variety of choices available. I believe that the skills challenge certificate actually does ensure that there is a broad curriculum and that children are exposed to different learning opportunities. And so, rather than narrowing it, I believe the Welsh bac helps us to make sure that there is an expansive curriculum, and that lots of different issues are explored in the skills challenge certificate that ensure not just academic skills are developed, but, actually, knowledge and skills of a wider range of subjects about you and your place in the world is available via this qualification.

Okay, thanks. And then, to what extent do you think that the Welsh bac should be give priority over other curriculum subjects?

Well, I don't think it's—. It shouldn't be at the expense of other subjects. It should be part of that wide range of opportunities that are afforded to students, and I don't think it's more important or less important than other aspects of what we already ask schools to deliver.


No. Obviously, schools are responsible for planning their local curriculum offer, and that needs to meet the needs of their learners, and it also needs to meet the needs of the Learning and Skills (Wales) Measure 2009. So, there should be a wide variety of choices available. I believe that the skills challenge certificate actually does ensure that there is a broad curriculum and that children are exposed to different learning opportunities. And so, rather than narrowing it, I believe the Welsh bac helps us to make sure that there is an expansive curriculum, and that lots of different issues are explored in the skills challenge certificate that ensure not just academic skills are developed, but, actually, knowledge and skills of a wider range of subjects about you and your place in the world is available via this qualification.

Okay, thanks. And then, to what extent do you think that the Welsh bac should be give priority over other curriculum subjects?

Well, I don't think it's—. It shouldn't be at the expense of other subjects. It should be part of that wide range of opportunities that are afforded to students, and I don't think it's more important or less important than other aspects of what we already ask schools to deliver.

What about where we've taken representations that there's a lack of capacity in terms of all the extra pressures of studying the Welsh bac along with other qualifications? I went to a school in Bangor, and, again, as has been said here, it's very polarised, the evidence that we're taking—either some have found it very easy or some, including teachers, have found it extremely difficult to fit everything in, and they do believe that there is a lack of capacity there.


Okay, thanks. And then, to what extent do you think that the Welsh bac should be give priority over other curriculum subjects?

Well, I don't think it's—. It shouldn't be at the expense of other subjects. It should be part of that wide range of opportunities that are afforded to students, and I don't think it's more important or less important than other aspects of what we already ask schools to deliver.

What about where we've taken representations that there's a lack of capacity in terms of all the extra pressures of studying the Welsh bac along with other qualifications? I went to a school in Bangor, and, again, as has been said here, it's very polarised, the evidence that we're taking—either some have found it very easy or some, including teachers, have found it extremely difficult to fit everything in, and they do believe that there is a lack of capacity there.

And the onerous nature and the consequences of workload for teachers is acknowledged by the Qualifications Wales work and review into the qualification, and that is one of the things that we're looking to address so that the assessment arrangements and workload implications for teachers are not too onerous. And, if there is any element of duplication—students being asked to do things over and over—then that needs to be addressed as well, and that's why there is this review by the design group.


Well, I don't think it's—. It shouldn't be at the expense of other subjects. It should be part of that wide range of opportunities that are afforded to students, and I don't think it's more important or less important than other aspects of what we already ask schools to deliver.

What about where we've taken representations that there's a lack of capacity in terms of all the extra pressures of studying the Welsh bac along with other qualifications? I went to a school in Bangor, and, again, as has been said here, it's very polarised, the evidence that we're taking—either some have found it very easy or some, including teachers, have found it extremely difficult to fit everything in, and they do believe that there is a lack of capacity there.

And the onerous nature and the consequences of workload for teachers is acknowledged by the Qualifications Wales work and review into the qualification, and that is one of the things that we're looking to address so that the assessment arrangements and workload implications for teachers are not too onerous. And, if there is any element of duplication—students being asked to do things over and over—then that needs to be addressed as well, and that's why there is this review by the design group.

Okay, thanks. And then, how do you respond to concerns that learners are avoiding studying the Welsh bac— where they can, that is—by attending institutions in England or institutions that do not offer Welsh-medium provision?


What about where we've taken representations that there's a lack of capacity in terms of all the extra pressures of studying the Welsh bac along with other qualifications? I went to a school in Bangor, and, again, as has been said here, it's very polarised, the evidence that we're taking—either some have found it very easy or some, including teachers, have found it extremely difficult to fit everything in, and they do believe that there is a lack of capacity there.

And the onerous nature and the consequences of workload for teachers is acknowledged by the Qualifications Wales work and review into the qualification, and that is one of the things that we're looking to address so that the assessment arrangements and workload implications for teachers are not too onerous. And, if there is any element of duplication—students being asked to do things over and over—then that needs to be addressed as well, and that's why there is this review by the design group.

Okay, thanks. And then, how do you respond to concerns that learners are avoiding studying the Welsh bac— where they can, that is—by attending institutions in England or institutions that do not offer Welsh-medium provision?

Well, it's interesting, isn't it, about where children choose to study and whether they are motivated by the avoidance of the Welsh bac? People make decisions about where to study for a whole host of reasons, and it's difficult sometimes to quantify what those are. So, for instance, we often hear this along the border that, because—. The geography is not easy, but it can be relatively easy to go across into the English system and therefore you don't have to do this. Now, the reasons for that could be very variable. It could be about the nature of the offer. We know that, in some of our rural schools, the secondary sixth forms aren't able to offer a wide variety of A-levels, and perhaps, by going to a different institution, a larger institution across the way, then you can get that combination of the A-levels you want to do, which simply isn't possible if you do it in your home school. Or, we do have some consortia arrangements where A-levels are delivered across a wide variety of schools, which require students to travel. Some students don't want to do that; they don't want to do their A-levels in three different schools, but they'd rather go to an institution where they can do it all under one roof. And that means, sometimes, moving across the border or, in the area I live, children making the decision to go to Merthyr college, because its a lovely, beautiful new building, the facilities are absolutely fantastic and a wide variety of A-levels is available under one roof. We looked at, in particular, also, the perception of quality. So, if we take the example of King Henry VIII School in Abergavenny, a school where, in the past, there have been, I think, within the community, some concerns about the quality of that school—whether it's regarded as a good school. And, from that particular location, you can quite easily get to Hereford college—a college that has a fantastic offer, does very, very well and has a beautiful building. What we do, if we look at the tracking of the students who have been retained in King Henry VIII, as that school has been on its improvement journey and has done better and better and better, the number of students that they are retaining into their sixth form has grown. So, the perception is, 'This is a good school, I'm going to get a good-quality experience here', and more and more students are choosing to stay in that school than perhaps make the decision to travel somewhere else. We also have to recognise that, for some students, staying in the sixth form isn't what they want to do; they want a different experience, they want to go to an FE college. They want a different experience. So, we have to take into consideration that students could be motivated by a wide variety of subjects, and there's no hard-and-fast evidence that it is avoidance of the bac that is the sole driver for some of these choices.


And the onerous nature and the consequences of workload for teachers is acknowledged by the Qualifications Wales work and review into the qualification, and that is one of the things that we're looking to address so that the assessment arrangements and workload implications for teachers are not too onerous. And, if there is any element of duplication—students being asked to do things over and over—then that needs to be addressed as well, and that's why there is this review by the design group.

Okay, thanks. And then, how do you respond to concerns that learners are avoiding studying the Welsh bac— where they can, that is—by attending institutions in England or institutions that do not offer Welsh-medium provision?

Well, it's interesting, isn't it, about where children choose to study and whether they are motivated by the avoidance of the Welsh bac? People make decisions about where to study for a whole host of reasons, and it's difficult sometimes to quantify what those are. So, for instance, we often hear this along the border that, because—. The geography is not easy, but it can be relatively easy to go across into the English system and therefore you don't have to do this. Now, the reasons for that could be very variable. It could be about the nature of the offer. We know that, in some of our rural schools, the secondary sixth forms aren't able to offer a wide variety of A-levels, and perhaps, by going to a different institution, a larger institution across the way, then you can get that combination of the A-levels you want to do, which simply isn't possible if you do it in your home school. Or, we do have some consortia arrangements where A-levels are delivered across a wide variety of schools, which require students to travel. Some students don't want to do that; they don't want to do their A-levels in three different schools, but they'd rather go to an institution where they can do it all under one roof. And that means, sometimes, moving across the border or, in the area I live, children making the decision to go to Merthyr college, because its a lovely, beautiful new building, the facilities are absolutely fantastic and a wide variety of A-levels is available under one roof. We looked at, in particular, also, the perception of quality. So, if we take the example of King Henry VIII School in Abergavenny, a school where, in the past, there have been, I think, within the community, some concerns about the quality of that school—whether it's regarded as a good school. And, from that particular location, you can quite easily get to Hereford college—a college that has a fantastic offer, does very, very well and has a beautiful building. What we do, if we look at the tracking of the students who have been retained in King Henry VIII, as that school has been on its improvement journey and has done better and better and better, the number of students that they are retaining into their sixth form has grown. So, the perception is, 'This is a good school, I'm going to get a good-quality experience here', and more and more students are choosing to stay in that school than perhaps make the decision to travel somewhere else. We also have to recognise that, for some students, staying in the sixth form isn't what they want to do; they want a different experience, they want to go to an FE college. They want a different experience. So, we have to take into consideration that students could be motivated by a wide variety of subjects, and there's no hard-and-fast evidence that it is avoidance of the bac that is the sole driver for some of these choices.


Okay, thanks. And then, how do you respond to concerns that learners are avoiding studying the Welsh bac— where they can, that is—by attending institutions in England or institutions that do not offer Welsh-medium provision?

Well, it's interesting, isn't it, about where children choose to study and whether they are motivated by the avoidance of the Welsh bac? People make decisions about where to study for a whole host of reasons, and it's difficult sometimes to quantify what those are. So, for instance, we often hear this along the border that, because—. The geography is not easy, but it can be relatively easy to go across into the English system and therefore you don't have to do this. Now, the reasons for that could be very variable. It could be about the nature of the offer. We know that, in some of our rural schools, the secondary sixth forms aren't able to offer a wide variety of A-levels, and perhaps, by going to a different institution, a larger institution across the way, then you can get that combination of the A-levels you want to do, which simply isn't possible if you do it in your home school. Or, we do have some consortia arrangements where A-levels are delivered across a wide variety of schools, which require students to travel. Some students don't want to do that; they don't want to do their A-levels in three different schools, but they'd rather go to an institution where they can do it all under one roof. And that means, sometimes, moving across the border or, in the area I live, children making the decision to go to Merthyr college, because its a lovely, beautiful new building, the facilities are absolutely fantastic and a wide variety of A-levels is available under one roof. We looked at, in particular, also, the perception of quality. So, if we take the example of King Henry VIII School in Abergavenny, a school where, in the past, there have been, I think, within the community, some concerns about the quality of that school—whether it's regarded as a good school. And, from that particular location, you can quite easily get to Hereford college—a college that has a fantastic offer, does very, very well and has a beautiful building. What we do, if we look at the tracking of the students who have been retained in King Henry VIII, as that school has been on its improvement journey and has done better and better and better, the number of students that they are retaining into their sixth form has grown. So, the perception is, 'This is a good school, I'm going to get a good-quality experience here', and more and more students are choosing to stay in that school than perhaps make the decision to travel somewhere else. We also have to recognise that, for some students, staying in the sixth form isn't what they want to do; they want a different experience, they want to go to an FE college. They want a different experience. So, we have to take into consideration that students could be motivated by a wide variety of subjects, and there's no hard-and-fast evidence that it is avoidance of the bac that is the sole driver for some of these choices.

The evidence that we've had from one of the teaching unions—robust and clear evidence—is that this is happening, that is, that young people are leaving Wales to go over the border to schools in England in order to avoid the Welsh bac. That's exactly what was said to us. But you don't accept that evidence.


Well, it's interesting, isn't it, about where children choose to study and whether they are motivated by the avoidance of the Welsh bac? People make decisions about where to study for a whole host of reasons, and it's difficult sometimes to quantify what those are. So, for instance, we often hear this along the border that, because—. The geography is not easy, but it can be relatively easy to go across into the English system and therefore you don't have to do this. Now, the reasons for that could be very variable. It could be about the nature of the offer. We know that, in some of our rural schools, the secondary sixth forms aren't able to offer a wide variety of A-levels, and perhaps, by going to a different institution, a larger institution across the way, then you can get that combination of the A-levels you want to do, which simply isn't possible if you do it in your home school. Or, we do have some consortia arrangements where A-levels are delivered across a wide variety of schools, which require students to travel. Some students don't want to do that; they don't want to do their A-levels in three different schools, but they'd rather go to an institution where they can do it all under one roof. And that means, sometimes, moving across the border or, in the area I live, children making the decision to go to Merthyr college, because its a lovely, beautiful new building, the facilities are absolutely fantastic and a wide variety of A-levels is available under one roof. We looked at, in particular, also, the perception of quality. So, if we take the example of King Henry VIII School in Abergavenny, a school where, in the past, there have been, I think, within the community, some concerns about the quality of that school—whether it's regarded as a good school. And, from that particular location, you can quite easily get to Hereford college—a college that has a fantastic offer, does very, very well and has a beautiful building. What we do, if we look at the tracking of the students who have been retained in King Henry VIII, as that school has been on its improvement journey and has done better and better and better, the number of students that they are retaining into their sixth form has grown. So, the perception is, 'This is a good school, I'm going to get a good-quality experience here', and more and more students are choosing to stay in that school than perhaps make the decision to travel somewhere else. We also have to recognise that, for some students, staying in the sixth form isn't what they want to do; they want a different experience, they want to go to an FE college. They want a different experience. So, we have to take into consideration that students could be motivated by a wide variety of subjects, and there's no hard-and-fast evidence that it is avoidance of the bac that is the sole driver for some of these choices.

The evidence that we've had from one of the teaching unions—robust and clear evidence—is that this is happening, that is, that young people are leaving Wales to go over the border to schools in England in order to avoid the Welsh bac. That's exactly what was said to us. But you don't accept that evidence.

I'm not saying that I don't accept it. I'm saying that I think there are a wide variety of reasons why students make decisions about where to study. I'm not aware of any comprehensive piece of work that has looked at those motivations, and I think there could be a whole host of reasons why children are deciding to move across the border. Perhaps the Welsh bac is an easy one to place that hook on, and that's easier to acknowledge, isn't it, than saying that perhaps students are making that choice for other reasons.


The evidence that we've had from one of the teaching unions—robust and clear evidence—is that this is happening, that is, that young people are leaving Wales to go over the border to schools in England in order to avoid the Welsh bac. That's exactly what was said to us. But you don't accept that evidence.

I'm not saying that I don't accept it. I'm saying that I think there are a wide variety of reasons why students make decisions about where to study. I'm not aware of any comprehensive piece of work that has looked at those motivations, and I think there could be a whole host of reasons why children are deciding to move across the border. Perhaps the Welsh bac is an easy one to place that hook on, and that's easier to acknowledge, isn't it, than saying that perhaps students are making that choice for other reasons.

Okay, thank you. The next questions, then, are on teacher learning from Suzy.


The evidence that we've had from one of the teaching unions—robust and clear evidence—is that this is happening, that is, that young people are leaving Wales to go over the border to schools in England in order to avoid the Welsh bac. That's exactly what was said to us. But you don't accept that evidence.

I'm not saying that I don't accept it. I'm saying that I think there are a wide variety of reasons why students make decisions about where to study. I'm not aware of any comprehensive piece of work that has looked at those motivations, and I think there could be a whole host of reasons why children are deciding to move across the border. Perhaps the Welsh bac is an easy one to place that hook on, and that's easier to acknowledge, isn't it, than saying that perhaps students are making that choice for other reasons.

Okay, thank you. The next questions, then, are on teacher learning from Suzy.

Actually, I've asked the question that I wanted to ask.


I'm not saying that I don't accept it. I'm saying that I think there are a wide variety of reasons why students make decisions about where to study. I'm not aware of any comprehensive piece of work that has looked at those motivations, and I think there could be a whole host of reasons why children are deciding to move across the border. Perhaps the Welsh bac is an easy one to place that hook on, and that's easier to acknowledge, isn't it, than saying that perhaps students are making that choice for other reasons.

Okay, thank you. The next questions, then, are on teacher learning from Suzy.

Actually, I've asked the question that I wanted to ask.


Okay, thank you. The next questions, then, are on teacher learning from Suzy.

Actually, I've asked the question that I wanted to ask.


Actually, I've asked the question that I wanted to ask.

Okay. You have referred to training already. The committee's got two concerns, really. One is about preparedness in ITE to teach the Welsh bac, so I don't know if you want to expand on how teachers are being skilled up at that level to deliver the Welsh bac effectively.


Okay. You have referred to training already. The committee's got two concerns, really. One is about preparedness in ITE to teach the Welsh bac, so I don't know if you want to expand on how teachers are being skilled up at that level to deliver the Welsh bac effectively.

In the accreditation process, which has not been without its pain, and some significant decisions made in that regard, the criteria for the ITE programmes note that, and I'm going to quote it: 'Teachers should be able to help children and young people to make links across their learning, bringing together different aspects to examine, for example, important topics such as citizenship, enterprise, financial capability and sustainability.' So, the prime driver for our ITE reforms, obviously, is the preparedness for 'Successful Futures', but in preparing our teachers to be in a position to successfully deliver that, those are also the pedagogical principles and that shift in pedagogy that we see aligned to the Welsh baccalaureate. So, it is actually a part of the accreditation process that the curriculum that the new ITE providers will have to deliver—ensuring that teachers have those skills and have that confidence to be able to deliver their teaching in a way that, as I said, ensures that we successfully deliver on Donaldson, but also on the same pedagogical principles that are needed for the successful delivery of the Welsh bac.


Okay. You have referred to training already. The committee's got two concerns, really. One is about preparedness in ITE to teach the Welsh bac, so I don't know if you want to expand on how teachers are being skilled up at that level to deliver the Welsh bac effectively.

In the accreditation process, which has not been without its pain, and some significant decisions made in that regard, the criteria for the ITE programmes note that, and I'm going to quote it: 'Teachers should be able to help children and young people to make links across their learning, bringing together different aspects to examine, for example, important topics such as citizenship, enterprise, financial capability and sustainability.' So, the prime driver for our ITE reforms, obviously, is the preparedness for 'Successful Futures', but in preparing our teachers to be in a position to successfully deliver that, those are also the pedagogical principles and that shift in pedagogy that we see aligned to the Welsh baccalaureate. So, it is actually a part of the accreditation process that the curriculum that the new ITE providers will have to deliver—ensuring that teachers have those skills and have that confidence to be able to deliver their teaching in a way that, as I said, ensures that we successfully deliver on Donaldson, but also on the same pedagogical principles that are needed for the successful delivery of the Welsh bac.

In the pre-Donaldson period, then, bearing in mind what you've just said, do you expect to see a surge in improvement on how the baccalaureate is taken up by those schools that are currently less keen on it?


Okay. You have referred to training already. The committee's got two concerns, really. One is about preparedness in ITE to teach the Welsh bac, so I don't know if you want to expand on how teachers are being skilled up at that level to deliver the Welsh bac effectively.

In the accreditation process, which has not been without its pain, and some significant decisions made in that regard, the criteria for the ITE programmes note that, and I'm going to quote it: 'Teachers should be able to help children and young people to make links across their learning, bringing together different aspects to examine, for example, important topics such as citizenship, enterprise, financial capability and sustainability.' So, the prime driver for our ITE reforms, obviously, is the preparedness for 'Successful Futures', but in preparing our teachers to be in a position to successfully deliver that, those are also the pedagogical principles and that shift in pedagogy that we see aligned to the Welsh baccalaureate. So, it is actually a part of the accreditation process that the curriculum that the new ITE providers will have to deliver—ensuring that teachers have those skills and have that confidence to be able to deliver their teaching in a way that, as I said, ensures that we successfully deliver on Donaldson, but also on the same pedagogical principles that are needed for the successful delivery of the Welsh bac.

In the pre-Donaldson period, then, bearing in mind what you've just said, do you expect to see a surge in improvement on how the baccalaureate is taken up by those schools that are currently less keen on it?

I hope that we will see increased numbers of students taking the qualification and an increase in the quality of that experience for young people. As we discussed earlier, we're not just waiting for the new graduates to come out of our ITE providers. There's a whole cohort of the workforce already out there. They should be given an equal opportunity to ensure that they have the skills to deliver on our curriculum reforms and our reform qualifications, and every time the previous Government has brought in a reformed qualification there have been specific resources made available to ensure that teachers are in a position to do that. So, when we changed to maths numeracy, a new qualification that was to be examined, there was specific resource made available for the professional learning for teachers to make sure that they were in a position to do that, and that's exactly the same as the offer that we have available for teachers who are delivering the Welsh bac.


In the accreditation process, which has not been without its pain, and some significant decisions made in that regard, the criteria for the ITE programmes note that, and I'm going to quote it: 'Teachers should be able to help children and young people to make links across their learning, bringing together different aspects to examine, for example, important topics such as citizenship, enterprise, financial capability and sustainability.' So, the prime driver for our ITE reforms, obviously, is the preparedness for 'Successful Futures', but in preparing our teachers to be in a position to successfully deliver that, those are also the pedagogical principles and that shift in pedagogy that we see aligned to the Welsh baccalaureate. So, it is actually a part of the accreditation process that the curriculum that the new ITE providers will have to deliver—ensuring that teachers have those skills and have that confidence to be able to deliver their teaching in a way that, as I said, ensures that we successfully deliver on Donaldson, but also on the same pedagogical principles that are needed for the successful delivery of the Welsh bac.

In the pre-Donaldson period, then, bearing in mind what you've just said, do you expect to see a surge in improvement on how the baccalaureate is taken up by those schools that are currently less keen on it?

I hope that we will see increased numbers of students taking the qualification and an increase in the quality of that experience for young people. As we discussed earlier, we're not just waiting for the new graduates to come out of our ITE providers. There's a whole cohort of the workforce already out there. They should be given an equal opportunity to ensure that they have the skills to deliver on our curriculum reforms and our reform qualifications, and every time the previous Government has brought in a reformed qualification there have been specific resources made available to ensure that teachers are in a position to do that. So, when we changed to maths numeracy, a new qualification that was to be examined, there was specific resource made available for the professional learning for teachers to make sure that they were in a position to do that, and that's exactly the same as the offer that we have available for teachers who are delivering the Welsh bac.

Okay, thank you. And you've already said about continuing professional development, that this is going to be a core part of the CPD. Is there anything that you want to add on that? Is it going to be fully integrated into the professional learning offer?


In the pre-Donaldson period, then, bearing in mind what you've just said, do you expect to see a surge in improvement on how the baccalaureate is taken up by those schools that are currently less keen on it?

I hope that we will see increased numbers of students taking the qualification and an increase in the quality of that experience for young people. As we discussed earlier, we're not just waiting for the new graduates to come out of our ITE providers. There's a whole cohort of the workforce already out there. They should be given an equal opportunity to ensure that they have the skills to deliver on our curriculum reforms and our reform qualifications, and every time the previous Government has brought in a reformed qualification there have been specific resources made available to ensure that teachers are in a position to do that. So, when we changed to maths numeracy, a new qualification that was to be examined, there was specific resource made available for the professional learning for teachers to make sure that they were in a position to do that, and that's exactly the same as the offer that we have available for teachers who are delivering the Welsh bac.

Okay, thank you. And you've already said about continuing professional development, that this is going to be a core part of the CPD. Is there anything that you want to add on that? Is it going to be fully integrated into the professional learning offer?

Yes, absolutely. There is already—I don't want to make the impression that there's not already support available out there. There is already support out there via regional consortia for professional learning with regard to the Welsh baccalaureate. There is existing support available from the WJEC with regard to Welsh baccalaureate, and it will continue, as we drive forward our national approach to professional learning. And, increasingly, there are interesting ways in which we're supporting students, so I don't know if Members are aware of the new MOOC. The University of Bath, one of the Russell Group universities, delivered a MOOC for the extended project qualification in England.


I hope that we will see increased numbers of students taking the qualification and an increase in the quality of that experience for young people. As we discussed earlier, we're not just waiting for the new graduates to come out of our ITE providers. There's a whole cohort of the workforce already out there. They should be given an equal opportunity to ensure that they have the skills to deliver on our curriculum reforms and our reform qualifications, and every time the previous Government has brought in a reformed qualification there have been specific resources made available to ensure that teachers are in a position to do that. So, when we changed to maths numeracy, a new qualification that was to be examined, there was specific resource made available for the professional learning for teachers to make sure that they were in a position to do that, and that's exactly the same as the offer that we have available for teachers who are delivering the Welsh bac.

Okay, thank you. And you've already said about continuing professional development, that this is going to be a core part of the CPD. Is there anything that you want to add on that? Is it going to be fully integrated into the professional learning offer?

Yes, absolutely. There is already—I don't want to make the impression that there's not already support available out there. There is already support out there via regional consortia for professional learning with regard to the Welsh baccalaureate. There is existing support available from the WJEC with regard to Welsh baccalaureate, and it will continue, as we drive forward our national approach to professional learning. And, increasingly, there are interesting ways in which we're supporting students, so I don't know if Members are aware of the new MOOC. The University of Bath, one of the Russell Group universities, delivered a MOOC for the extended project qualification in England.


Okay, thank you. And you've already said about continuing professional development, that this is going to be a core part of the CPD. Is there anything that you want to add on that? Is it going to be fully integrated into the professional learning offer?

Yes, absolutely. There is already—I don't want to make the impression that there's not already support available out there. There is already support out there via regional consortia for professional learning with regard to the Welsh baccalaureate. There is existing support available from the WJEC with regard to Welsh baccalaureate, and it will continue, as we drive forward our national approach to professional learning. And, increasingly, there are interesting ways in which we're supporting students, so I don't know if Members are aware of the new MOOC. The University of Bath, one of the Russell Group universities, delivered a MOOC for the extended project qualification in England.

So, it is an online—a massive open online course. So, it's a course that is delivered free of charge, and it's delivered by information technology. So, the University of Bath have done this MOOC to support students with the EPQ. They have just launched, in conjunction with Aberystwyth University, a bilingual MOOC for the individual project for Welsh bac. It's our understanding it is the first ever Welsh-medium MOOC, we think; we're not aware of any others. And this resource is there for students to give them advice on how they do choose the thesis for their individual project: how do you go about, then, undertaking good independent research; how do you reference properly, to ensure that you do that correctly? And we've seen over 1,000 students already sign up for the MOOC. So, increasingly, there are lots and lots of new resources out there for both teachers and students to make the most of. And the fact that Bath and Aberystwyth have worked together on this, I believe, shows their commitment and a demonstration of their support for this qualification, otherwise why would the University of Bath bother, if they weren't interested in it?


Yes, absolutely. There is already—I don't want to make the impression that there's not already support available out there. There is already support out there via regional consortia for professional learning with regard to the Welsh baccalaureate. There is existing support available from the WJEC with regard to Welsh baccalaureate, and it will continue, as we drive forward our national approach to professional learning. And, increasingly, there are interesting ways in which we're supporting students, so I don't know if Members are aware of the new MOOC. The University of Bath, one of the Russell Group universities, delivered a MOOC for the extended project qualification in England.

So, it is an online—a massive open online course. So, it's a course that is delivered free of charge, and it's delivered by information technology. So, the University of Bath have done this MOOC to support students with the EPQ. They have just launched, in conjunction with Aberystwyth University, a bilingual MOOC for the individual project for Welsh bac. It's our understanding it is the first ever Welsh-medium MOOC, we think; we're not aware of any others. And this resource is there for students to give them advice on how they do choose the thesis for their individual project: how do you go about, then, undertaking good independent research; how do you reference properly, to ensure that you do that correctly? And we've seen over 1,000 students already sign up for the MOOC. So, increasingly, there are lots and lots of new resources out there for both teachers and students to make the most of. And the fact that Bath and Aberystwyth have worked together on this, I believe, shows their commitment and a demonstration of their support for this qualification, otherwise why would the University of Bath bother, if they weren't interested in it?

Okay. Just one final question from me. I've written to you about a young constituent who moved institutions and resat the Welsh bac, but wasn't able, because of the WJEC policy, to obtain a higher grade in it, because they've got a policy that the grade is capped when you resit it. Given what the committee's been told about the variability in the way this is taught in institutions in Wales, do you think it's fair that young people shouldn't be able to go and resit it somewhere else and get a better grade?


So, it is an online—a massive open online course. So, it's a course that is delivered free of charge, and it's delivered by information technology. So, the University of Bath have done this MOOC to support students with the EPQ. They have just launched, in conjunction with Aberystwyth University, a bilingual MOOC for the individual project for Welsh bac. It's our understanding it is the first ever Welsh-medium MOOC, we think; we're not aware of any others. And this resource is there for students to give them advice on how they do choose the thesis for their individual project: how do you go about, then, undertaking good independent research; how do you reference properly, to ensure that you do that correctly? And we've seen over 1,000 students already sign up for the MOOC. So, increasingly, there are lots and lots of new resources out there for both teachers and students to make the most of. And the fact that Bath and Aberystwyth have worked together on this, I believe, shows their commitment and a demonstration of their support for this qualification, otherwise why would the University of Bath bother, if they weren't interested in it?

Okay. Just one final question from me. I've written to you about a young constituent who moved institutions and resat the Welsh bac, but wasn't able, because of the WJEC policy, to obtain a higher grade in it, because they've got a policy that the grade is capped when you resit it. Given what the committee's been told about the variability in the way this is taught in institutions in Wales, do you think it's fair that young people shouldn't be able to go and resit it somewhere else and get a better grade?


Play-Doh's edible. Did you know that ? It's definitely


Play-Doh's edible. Did you know that ? It's definitely

I've , I've definitely eaten it before. I didn't know was edible.  .


I've , I've definitely eaten it before. I didn't know was edible.  .


I've , I've definitely eaten it before. I didn't know was edible.  .

But um , it's it's made edible 'cause , yeah. It's made edible 'cause kids eat it ,


But um , it's it's made edible 'cause , yeah. It's made edible 'cause kids eat it ,

and if it's wasn't edible then  Well , normal babies.


But um , it's it's made edible 'cause , yeah. It's made edible 'cause kids eat it ,

and if it's wasn't edible then  Well , normal babies.

Actually that makes sense , because I remember like , peopl I dunno if my Mom ever did it but I remember other people's Moms making like home-made Play-Doh where you just like make the  colouring and make some sort of sort of dough.


and if it's wasn't edible then  Well , normal babies.

Actually that makes sense , because I remember like , peopl I dunno if my Mom ever did it but I remember other people's Moms making like home-made Play-Doh where you just like make the  colouring and make some sort of sort of dough.


Actually that makes sense , because I remember like , peopl I dunno if my Mom ever did it but I remember other people's Moms making like home-made Play-Doh where you just like make the  colouring and make some sort of sort of dough.


Okay , let's have your um  let's get  have the uh presentation ?


Okay , let's have your um  let's get  have the uh presentation ?

Yeah , it's pretty exciting. So , everything uh that we wanted we wanted it to be ergonomic and to be made out of rubber , very simple and easy to use ,


Yeah , it's pretty exciting. So , everything uh that we wanted we wanted it to be ergonomic and to be made out of rubber , very simple and easy to use ,


um but also something that was gonna jump out at people , something that would be different uh , separate it from the other remotes out on the market. So uh I think if you put this in the palm of your hand , you'll see what a nice thing we have going here.


um but also something that was gonna jump out at people , something that would be different uh , separate it from the other remotes out on the market. So uh I think if you put this in the palm of your hand , you'll see what a nice thing we have going here.

So , basically , if you hold it like that , the one on your thumb , yeah ,  the thumb button is the power button.


So , basically , if you hold it like that , the one on your thumb , yeah ,  the thumb button is the power button.

Your index finger is channel up , middle finger is channel down , ring finger is volume up , your pinkie is volume down.


Your index finger is channel up , middle finger is channel down , ring finger is volume up , your pinkie is volume down.

That's the lock button , has a L_ L_ on it


That's the lock button , has a L_ L_ on it

and then the M_ is a mute button. And then it also has digit


and then the M_ is a mute button. And then it also has digit


Um and then then you can also  there's a numeric keypad on the top so you can key directly to the to the channel if you want.


Um and then then you can also  there's a numeric keypad on the top so you can key directly to the to the channel if you want.

So it's really basic functionalities as far as what keys are available , but we think it's very comfortable and very innovative and it looks different.


So it's really basic functionalities as far as what keys are available , but we think it's very comfortable and very innovative and it looks different.

So all the , I mean the important keys are right at your f f you know right at uh at a convenient place for you to to access them.


So all the , I mean the important keys are right at your f f you know right at uh at a convenient place for you to to access them.


And it's also conformable to the size of your hand. I mean if that's too big , it's a rubber remote , so you can , you know


And it's also conformable to the size of your hand. I mean if that's too big , it's a rubber remote , so you can , you know

change that. So d does that uh what  mesh with what you guys were hoping and for and expecting or does it


change that. So d does that uh what  mesh with what you guys were hoping and for and expecting or does it

I have one thing about it , but it's a small thing , but it'd mean we'd have to make a right-handed one and a left-handed one.


I have one thing about it , but it's a small thing , but it'd mean we'd have to make a right-handed one and a left-handed one.


I have one thing about it , but it's a small thing , but it'd mean we'd have to make a right-handed one and a left-handed one.

But , that's I don't see why that's not possible.


But , that's I don't see why that's not possible.

Yeah , if we build rocket ships why can't we build left-handed and right-handed uh remotes.


But , that's I don't see why that's not possible.

Yeah , if we build rocket ships why can't we build left-handed and right-handed uh remotes.

Yeah.  They make left-handed scissors , you know.


But , that's I don't see why that's not possible.

Yeah , if we build rocket ships why can't we build left-handed and right-handed uh remotes.

Yeah.  They make left-handed scissors , you know.

Yeah , I didn't I didn't think about that , but I'd  yeah , .


Yeah , if we build rocket ships why can't we build left-handed and right-handed uh remotes.

Yeah.  They make left-handed scissors , you know.

Yeah , I didn't I didn't think about that , but I'd  yeah , .

Yeah , but then but then you can learn to use your right h like I was just thinking if there's left-handers and right-handers in the family , what , they have two remotes ?


Yeah.  They make left-handed scissors , you know.

Yeah , I didn't I didn't think about that , but I'd  yeah , .

Yeah , but then but then you can learn to use your right h like I was just thinking if there's left-handers and right-handers in the family , what , they have two remotes ?


Yeah , I didn't I didn't think about that , but I'd  yeah , .

Yeah , but then but then you can learn to use your right h like I was just thinking if there's left-handers and right-handers in the family , what , they have two remotes ?

Yeah , I know I know people who have left-handed and right-handed people in the family and they all use the computer  for the whole  the same computer the fes family and they have a mouse , and everybody is using right-handed mouse.


Yeah , but then but then you can learn to use your right h like I was just thinking if there's left-handers and right-handers in the family , what , they have two remotes ?

Yeah , I know I know people who have left-handed and right-handed people in the family and they all use the computer  for the whole  the same computer the fes family and they have a mouse , and everybody is using right-handed mouse.


Yeah , I know I know people who have left-handed and right-handed people in the family and they all use the computer  for the whole  the same computer the fes family and they have a mouse , and everybody is using right-handed mouse.


I mean it's only pressing buttons , you don't have to do anything , you know , extraordinary. I think everybody can press a button with their left and right hand so


Imagine you're doing it with your left hand , I don't think it's too


But um other than that , I mean uh and that's um , you know , that's just something , I think I think it's great , yeah , great idea.


But um other than that , I mean uh and that's um , you know , that's just something , I think I think it's great , yeah , great idea.

I think it's , well , if the R_R_ motto is , we bring fashion to to electronics , I'd say that could be quite fashionable.


I think it's , well , if the R_R_ motto is , we bring fashion to to electronics , I'd say that could be quite fashionable.


I think it's , well , if the R_R_ motto is , we bring fashion to to electronics , I'd say that could be quite fashionable.

Yeah. And it's got the b the black and yellow and blue.


Yeah. And it's got the b the black and yellow and blue.


Yeah. And it's got the b the black and yellow and blue.

Plus red , which is sort of a a fruit and vegetable uh uh.


Plus red , which is sort of a a fruit and vegetable uh uh.


Plus red , which is sort of a a fruit and vegetable uh uh.

So that's that's  our end of things wha uh


So that's that's  our end of things wha uh


So that's that's  our end of things wha uh

It's come up with what we've you know , the things that's what we've  what we were looking at doing , hasn't it ,  all seems to be there.


It's come up with what we've you know , the things that's what we've  what we were looking at doing , hasn't it ,  all seems to be there.


Thank you. Yeah. Um. One thing I do need to do  we need to look at , is the costs.


Play-Doh won't last very long everybody'll go like , oops , it's gone.


Well , they'll buy more of them if you eat them , .


Well , they'll buy more of them if you eat them , .

That was the main criteria from the last meeting , it had to be chew proof.


Well , they'll buy more of them if you eat them , .

That was the main criteria from the last meeting , it had to be chew proof.

Yeah. Uh right.  Okay , now I think we'll do this  I could do  you know , I can do this o on my own or I could do it with you ,


That was the main criteria from the last meeting , it had to be chew proof.

Yeah. Uh right.  Okay , now I think we'll do this  I could do  you know , I can do this o on my own or I could do it with you ,


Yeah. Uh right.  Okay , now I think we'll do this  I could do  you know , I can do this o on my own or I could do it with you ,

but it's just easy enough to go through it with you , so we're going for the kinetic power.


but it's just easy enough to go through it with you , so we're going for the kinetic power.


but it's just easy enough to go through it with you , so we're going for the kinetic power.

And the electronics , we decided on it being just a simple , the easiest thing that's inside it. Ooh.


but it's just easy enough to go through it with you , so we're going for the kinetic power.

And the electronics , we decided on it being just a simple , the easiest thing that's inside it. Ooh.

So  the case , we've gone for the double curved. Um and it's made out of rubber.  The interface is push-buttons. And button supplements well they're in diff special colours , aren't they ?


And the electronics , we decided on it being just a simple , the easiest thing that's inside it. Ooh.

So  the case , we've gone for the double curved. Um and it's made out of rubber.  The interface is push-buttons. And button supplements well they're in diff special colours , aren't they ?


So  the case , we've gone for the double curved. Um and it's made out of rubber.  The interface is push-buttons. And button supplements well they're in diff special colours , aren't they ?


Special form , yeah , they're a special form there in shapes and stuff.


Special form , yeah , they're a special form there in shapes and stuff.

Yeah , I mean ,  these these ones on the side are curved kind of , so


Special form , yeah , they're a special form there in shapes and stuff.

Yeah , I mean ,  these these ones on the side are curved kind of , so

Yep. Yeah. Um. Are they made out of any special material ?


Yeah , I mean ,  these these ones on the side are curved kind of , so

Yep. Yeah. Um. Are they made out of any special material ?


Yep. Yeah. Um. Are they made out of any special material ?

No they're not. They're not made out of wood or titanium or rubber or anything , they're just simple


No they're not. They're not made out of wood or titanium or rubber or anything , they're just simple


So let's see if that comes within budget. And it does. That is gonna cost uh


So let's see if that comes within budget. And it does. That is gonna cost uh

Yeah. That's gonna cost ten ten Euro seventy cents a unit to make. And our target was it had to come in at under twelve fifty.


Yeah. That's gonna cost ten ten Euro seventy cents a unit to make. And our target was it had to come in at under twelve fifty.


Yeah. That's gonna cost ten ten Euro seventy cents a unit to make. And our target was it had to come in at under twelve fifty.

And we're actua actually making a better profit than we expected.


And we're actua actually making a better profit than we expected.

this is all very very good. The bosses will be very pleased.


And we're actua actually making a better profit than we expected.

this is all very very good. The bosses will be very pleased.

Okay , let's just save this so I can e-mail it to you. Uh.


And we're actua actually making a better profit than we expected.

this is all very very good. The bosses will be very pleased.

Okay , let's just save this so I can e-mail it to you. Uh.

Save it in  save it in the uh  my documents.


this is all very very good. The bosses will be very pleased.

Okay , let's just save this so I can e-mail it to you. Uh.

Save it in  save it in the uh  my documents.


Okay , let's just save this so I can e-mail it to you. Uh.

Save it in  save it in the uh  my documents.

Splendid. Okay. So uh , that's  done with this with this um doodah , so you're . Gonna do  what you were gonna do ,


Save it in  save it in the uh  my documents.

Splendid. Okay. So uh , that's  done with this with this um doodah , so you're . Gonna do  what you were gonna do ,


Splendid. Okay. So uh , that's  done with this with this um doodah , so you're . Gonna do  what you were gonna do ,


Splendid. Okay. So uh , that's  done with this with this um doodah , so you're . Gonna do  what you were gonna do ,

Oh , yeah. This is where we all get to  I get to write on the , oops , on the board. Right.


Oh , yeah. This is where we all get to  I get to write on the , oops , on the board. Right.


Okay. So ,  evaluation. We're gonna do it all together so we evaluate each criteria. I've got the criterias. And we have to do it on a scale of one to seven , one being true , so it's it's more like it's  fits the criteria , and seven being as in it doesn't fit the criteria. And the criterias are , and I'll draw this up on the board   so we have a box  . And this is false , this is just like to keep you informed. So seven's here and one's here and then you've got in the middle.  So the first criteria. Do you all get what we're doing ?


Okay. So ,  evaluation. We're gonna do it all together so we evaluate each criteria. I've got the criterias. And we have to do it on a scale of one to seven , one being true , so it's it's more like it's  fits the criteria , and seven being as in it doesn't fit the criteria. And the criterias are , and I'll draw this up on the board   so we have a box  . And this is false , this is just like to keep you informed. So seven's here and one's here and then you've got in the middle.  So the first criteria. Do you all get what we're doing ?

Okay , cool. Okay , first criteria , look and feel. So the does remote look and feel fashionable to what we talked about ? As it  is it colour-wise and is it spongy ?


Okay , cool. Okay , first criteria , look and feel. So the does remote look and feel fashionable to what we talked about ? As it  is it colour-wise and is it spongy ?


A one a one. So I'll just write criteria criteria one we get one. Second criteria , new technology. Have we implemented new technology ? As in the new high-tech


A one a one. So I'll just write criteria criteria one we get one. Second criteria , new technology. Have we implemented new technology ? As in the new high-tech

Yeah. That was our main technological innovation w every everything else was fairly simple , but the fact that we used the kinetic energy was new.


Yeah. That was our main technological innovation w every everything else was fairly simple , but the fact that we used the kinetic energy was new.


but that's not  that's that's a design that's a des that's a design thing , yeah.


but that's not  that's that's a design that's a des that's a design thing , yeah.

Yeah , but that's not a technological thing , that's another thing , i that's another marketing thing.


Yeah , but that's not a technological thing , that's another thing , i that's another marketing thing.


It's about in the mid in the middle somewhere ,


three. So criteria three is is it easy to use ?


not if you're left-handed it's not. I would give it a I would give it a two ,


not if you're left-handed it's not. I would give it a I would give it a two ,

'cause i i it i it i it is more geared for right-handed people than left-handed people , but


'cause i i it i it i it is more geared for right-handed people than left-handed people , but


But if we make a right-handed and a left-handed then ?


But if we make a right-handed and a left-handed then ?

If we're gonna have one left-handed and one right-handed then I would give it a one , but otherwise otherwise a two.


If we're gonna have one left-handed and one right-handed then I would give it a one , but otherwise otherwise a two.


Yeah , okay.  'Kay , criteria four is costs.


'cause people like a lot le like  So it's a one ?


Um criteria six. R_S_I_ is it good against ?


It's one. And criteria seven , which is the last one , does it get lost ?


It's one. And criteria seven , which is the last one , does it get lost ?

I don't think it's gonna get lost easily.


I don't think it's gonna get lost easily.


It's not the kinda thing that's gonna slip like between a couch cushion or something , you know. Maybe it will. Uh.


It's not the kinda thing that's gonna slip like between a couch cushion or something , you know. Maybe it will. Uh.

Mm. I think i it would , could be , could get lost.


Mm. I think i it would , could be , could get lost.


I mean it's not fully it's not fully  like you can't say


I mean it's not fully it's not fully  like you can't say

I mean , you could still flush it down the toilet theoretically , but


I mean , you could still flush it down the toilet theoretically , but

Okay. Yeah , anything , I mean. Okay. It's bigger than the average mobile , I guess.


Okay. Yeah , anything , I mean. Okay. It's bigger than the average mobile , I guess.


But then you ring 'em and you find them.  So


Yeah. So , that's that. So that's the evaluation , so I'd say  Yay.


All done , thanks. We fitted all the criterias.


Okay , I I think um I just wanna put in as Project Manager the you know , little bit of praise for everybody here for how they've worked on it ,


Okay , I I think um I just wanna put in as Project Manager the you know , little bit of praise for everybody here for how they've worked on it ,

you know , both individually and as a team. You know you've w everyone's come up with their own individual ideas in their own different departments , um and then come together and worked in , you know , integrally , you know , at the right times , psp , you know , especially you two.


Okay , I I think um I just wanna put in as Project Manager the you know , little bit of praise for everybody here for how they've worked on it ,

you know , both individually and as a team. You know you've w everyone's come up with their own individual ideas in their own different departments , um and then come together and worked in , you know , integrally , you know , at the right times , psp , you know , especially you two.

That's all , you know , gone very very well


you know , both individually and as a team. You know you've w everyone's come up with their own individual ideas in their own different departments , um and then come together and worked in , you know , integrally , you know , at the right times , psp , you know , especially you two.

That's all , you know , gone very very well

and and and be you know , has been good communication going on.


That's all , you know , gone very very well

and and and be you know , has been good communication going on.

Yeah , during our design I mean there was some s some heated heated discussion ,


and and and be you know , has been good communication going on.

Yeah , during our design I mean there was some s some heated heated discussion ,

but we we kept  we tried to keep it cool and and


and and and be you know , has been good communication going on.

Yeah , during our design I mean there was some s some heated heated discussion ,

but we we kept  we tried to keep it cool and and

Did you have to go down to the the corporate squash court and bash a few balls about ?


Yeah , during our design I mean there was some s some heated heated discussion ,

but we we kept  we tried to keep it cool and and

Did you have to go down to the the corporate squash court and bash a few balls about ?


but we we kept  we tried to keep it cool and and

Did you have to go down to the the corporate squash court and bash a few balls about ?


Did you have to go down to the the corporate squash court and bash a few balls about ?

We just had to we just had to squeeze our product a little bit and


We just had to we just had to squeeze our product a little bit and


Now you guys have been a a great team. Think we're the we're the envy of all the of all the other R_R_ teams , .


Now you guys have been a a great team. Think we're the we're the envy of all the of all the other R_R_ teams , .

I I , you know , and I think we've co we have come we've come up with something new , something that hasn't been done before , we haven't  we're not just rehashing an old design.


I I , you know , and I think we've co we have come we've come up with something new , something that hasn't been done before , we haven't  we're not just rehashing an old design.


I I , you know , and I think we've co we have come we've come up with something new , something that hasn't been done before , we haven't  we're not just rehashing an old design.

Funny , all designer meetings could be this quick.


Funny , all designer meetings could be this quick.

You know , maybe this isn't a simulation , maybe this is actually  so it's like Sony or someone like that they're they're just , yeah ,  they get


Funny , all designer meetings could be this quick.

You know , maybe this isn't a simulation , maybe this is actually  so it's like Sony or someone like that they're they're just , yeah ,  they get

Yeah I think they're actually trying to find ideas for a ideal remote.


You know , maybe this isn't a simulation , maybe this is actually  so it's like Sony or someone like that they're they're just , yeah ,  they get

Yeah I think they're actually trying to find ideas for a ideal remote.

Yeah. Yeah ,  two years' time this will be on the market.


Yeah I think they're actually trying to find ideas for a ideal remote.

Yeah. Yeah ,  two years' time this will be on the market.


Yeah. Yeah ,  two years' time this will be on the market.

um thum  we'll go , yeah , we designed that and no-one will believe us.


um thum  we'll go , yeah , we designed that and no-one will believe us.

So at this stage , I mean , is this the last meeting of the project ? We don't uh have another one after it's gone gone to marke market or something ?


So at this stage , I mean , is this the last meeting of the project ? We don't uh have another one after it's gone gone to marke market or something ?


So at this stage , I mean , is this the last meeting of the project ? We don't uh have another one after it's gone gone to marke market or something ?

I think when this meeting's finished like officially , there b we'll get a uh questionnaire to fill in.


I think when this meeting's finished like officially , there b we'll get a uh questionnaire to fill in.


I think when this meeting's finished like officially , there b we'll get a uh questionnaire to fill in.

Just start summarising now.  You can reply to the same message.


Just start summarising now.  You can reply to the same message.


Just start summarising now.  You can reply to the same message.

See summary , there. If you just reply to that one.


Just start summarising now.  You can reply to the same message.

See summary , there. If you just reply to that one.

So there's no way to like predict what our  'Cause we had a  we originally had a   As far as our financial uh um goals , we had a specific number for profits that we wanted. It was fifty mil fifty million


See summary , there. If you just reply to that one.

So there's no way to like predict what our  'Cause we had a  we originally had a   As far as our financial uh um goals , we had a specific number for profits that we wanted. It was fifty mil fifty million


See summary , there. If you just reply to that one.

So there's no way to like predict what our  'Cause we had a  we originally had a   As far as our financial uh um goals , we had a specific number for profits that we wanted. It was fifty mil fifty million

I don't remember. But there's not a way to compute that , I mean , since we saved on the on the production cost , do we know how much we're making on profit ?


So there's no way to like predict what our  'Cause we had a  we originally had a   As far as our financial uh um goals , we had a specific number for profits that we wanted. It was fifty mil fifty million

I don't remember. But there's not a way to compute that , I mean , since we saved on the on the production cost , do we know how much we're making on profit ?

It gets handed over to another department.


I don't remember. But there's not a way to compute that , I mean , since we saved on the on the production cost , do we know how much we're making on profit ?

It gets handed over to another department.


It gets handed over to another department.

What our what our project was was to come up with the product , basically.


What our what our project was was to come up with the product , basically.


What our what our project was was to come up with the product , basically.

the for the  and just basically is it it come  can  is it within budget. When it c when it comes to all the other things of how to sell it and , you know , the b the profits and all that that's other departments  it's another team that actually work out the mai the


the for the  and just basically is it it come  can  is it within budget. When it c when it comes to all the other things of how to sell it and , you know , the b the profits and all that that's other departments  it's another team that actually work out the mai the

oh yeah , the  all the guys in the profit sharing , yeah.


oh yeah , the  all the guys in the profit sharing , yeah.

Um. Yeah , that's it. You know , we've we've we've made i we've made


Um. Yeah , that's it. You know , we've we've we've made i we've made

we've designed the product , we've ma we've got the prototype , it's within budget , it's  does everything that we wanted it to do. It's new , it's it's um something that uh  that isn't out there already.


Um. Yeah , that's it. You know , we've we've we've made i we've made

we've designed the product , we've ma we've got the prototype , it's within budget , it's  does everything that we wanted it to do. It's new , it's it's um something that uh  that isn't out there already.

I think actually  and one advantage of of this is that after the uh , you know , after this fad of fruit and vegetables passes this will still be c a cool remote , you know.


we've designed the product , we've ma we've got the prototype , it's within budget , it's  does everything that we wanted it to do. It's new , it's it's um something that uh  that isn't out there already.

I think actually  and one advantage of of this is that after the uh , you know , after this fad of fruit and vegetables passes this will still be c a cool remote , you know.


we've designed the product , we've ma we've got the prototype , it's within budget , it's  does everything that we wanted it to do. It's new , it's it's um something that uh  that isn't out there already.

I think actually  and one advantage of of this is that after the uh , you know , after this fad of fruit and vegetables passes this will still be c a cool remote , you know.

We're not we're not you know , tying tying our cart to that one horse .


I think actually  and one advantage of of this is that after the uh , you know , after this fad of fruit and vegetables passes this will still be c a cool remote , you know.

We're not we're not you know , tying tying our cart to that one horse .


We're not we're not you know , tying tying our cart to that one horse .


We're not we're not you know , tying tying our cart to that one horse .

Well , this is very marketable in that it is it's it's something that's kind of new and looks a bit quirky for people who want that ,


Well , this is very marketable in that it is it's it's something that's kind of new and looks a bit quirky for people who want that ,


Well , this is very marketable in that it is it's it's something that's kind of new and looks a bit quirky for people who want that ,

it's  that it's um , hang on , I wrote it down here somewhere


Well , this is very marketable in that it is it's it's something that's kind of new and looks a bit quirky for people who want that ,

it's  that it's um , hang on , I wrote it down here somewhere

Oh no I thi I put it in one of my e-mails that I sent off. Um that , you know , it's marketable in the sense that it's  whilst all these other remotes uh actually do give you repetitive strain injury , our one does the complete opposite , you know ,


it's  that it's um , hang on , I wrote it down here somewhere

Oh no I thi I put it in one of my e-mails that I sent off. Um that , you know , it's marketable in the sense that it's  whilst all these other remotes uh actually do give you repetitive strain injury , our one does the complete opposite , you know ,


it's  that it's um , hang on , I wrote it down here somewhere

Oh no I thi I put it in one of my e-mails that I sent off. Um that , you know , it's marketable in the sense that it's  whilst all these other remotes uh actually do give you repetitive strain injury , our one does the complete opposite , you know ,

so that's something that's new , which is one of the criteria they asked us to come up with something with something new.


Oh no I thi I put it in one of my e-mails that I sent off. Um that , you know , it's marketable in the sense that it's  whilst all these other remotes uh actually do give you repetitive strain injury , our one does the complete opposite , you know ,

so that's something that's new , which is one of the criteria they asked us to come up with something with something new.


so that's something that's new , which is one of the criteria they asked us to come up with something with something new.

Yeah , and if you're not having a good time with the T_V_ , you can f throw it about , you know.


Yeah , and if you're not having a good time with the T_V_ , you can f throw it about , you know.


Yeah , and if you're not having a good time with the T_V_ , you can f throw it about , you know.

Just don't sh don't throw it at any of the ornaments and break them.


Just don't sh don't throw it at any of the ornaments and break them.


Just don't sh don't throw it at any of the ornaments and break them.

Well , you can break the ornaments , but you won't break that.


Well , you can break the ornaments , but you won't break that.

Yeah. So all in all , I think we've done very well.


Yeah. So all in all , I think we've done very well.


In the corporate bar that's next to the corporate swimming pool on the top floor that we're that've all just gained access to.


Well , as far as I t as far as I know. Um.


Well , as far as I t as far as I know. Um.

Yep. We haven't got the five minute left thing yet.


Yep. We haven't got the five minute left thing yet.

I guess it's probably better that we wrap it up than have five minutes of silence. Should we call the day then ?


I guess it's probably better that we wrap it up than have five minutes of silence. Should we call the day then ?

Yeah , I guess. I mean we're gonna get asked to fill out another questionnaire.


I guess it's probably better that we wrap it up than have five minutes of silence. Should we call the day then ?

Yeah , I guess. I mean we're gonna get asked to fill out another questionnaire.

Um. It's probably gonna be the same as one we've done before.


Yeah , I guess. I mean we're gonna get asked to fill out another questionnaire.

Um. It's probably gonna be the same as one we've done before.


Um. It's probably gonna be the same as one we've done before.

But I'm not the authority to say that it is.


But I'm not the authority to say that it is.

Um how does everyone feel about the technology that's been used in this ? The sort of using of the the pens and writing on these special pads and all that ?


But I'm not the authority to say that it is.

Um how does everyone feel about the technology that's been used in this ? The sort of using of the the pens and writing on these special pads and all that ?

I love it.  I love it.  I think it's cool.


Um how does everyone feel about the technology that's been used in this ? The sort of using of the the pens and writing on these special pads and all that ?

I love it.  I love it.  I think it's cool.

Being all wired up and a vibrating pen and  it's cool.


I love it.  I love it.  I think it's cool.

Being all wired up and a vibrating pen and  it's cool.


Being all wired up and a vibrating pen and  it's cool.


I thi you know , I'd I'd n yeah , as we said earlier , I've not  never seen that before.  something that t the whiteboard


I thi you know , I'd I'd n yeah , as we said earlier , I've not  never seen that before.  something that t the whiteboard

thingy ,  that's great. Um , but a p a pen with a camera on it , I don't think it's such a new thing. I mean it's i or in such a new idea. It would be different if it was sort of hand writing recognition stuff , but as it's not


thingy ,  that's great. Um , but a p a pen with a camera on it , I don't think it's such a new thing. I mean it's i or in such a new idea. It would be different if it was sort of hand writing recognition stuff , but as it's not

it's literally that'll come up on a computer screen as a picture file rather than actual text.


it's literally that'll come up on a computer screen as a picture file rather than actual text.

Right , I think they do want to do hand writing recognition on that , it's just the first step.


Right , I think they do want to do hand writing recognition on that , it's just the first step.


Right , I think they do want to do hand writing recognition on that , it's just the first step.

I guess we should end this , since we're off off topic. So. Shall we


I guess we should end this , since we're off off topic. So. Shall we


OK. Might wanna  close the door so that  Uh , Stephane will


OK. Might wanna  close the door so that  Uh , Stephane will

Hey Dave ? Could you go ahead and turn on , uh , Stephane 's


Hey Dave ? Could you go ahead and turn on , uh , Stephane 's


Hey Dave ? Could you go ahead and turn on , uh , Stephane 's

So that 's the virtual Stephane over there.


So that 's the virtual Stephane over there.


So that 's the virtual Stephane over there.

Uh , yeah , a Linux box. Yeah. It 's got , uh , like sixteen channels going into it.


Uh , yeah , a Linux box. Yeah. It 's got , uh , like sixteen channels going into it.

Uh - huh. Uh - huh. The quality is quite good ? Or  ?


Uh , yeah , a Linux box. Yeah. It 's got , uh , like sixteen channels going into it.

Uh - huh. Uh - huh. The quality is quite good ? Or  ?

Mm - hmm. Yeah , so far , it 's been pretty good.


Uh - huh. Uh - huh. The quality is quite good ? Or  ?

Mm - hmm. Yeah , so far , it 's been pretty good.

Yeah. So , uh , yeah  the suggestion was to have these guys start to


Mm - hmm. Yeah , so far , it 's been pretty good.

Yeah. So , uh , yeah  the suggestion was to have these guys start to


Yeah. So , uh , yeah  the suggestion was to have these guys start to

OK. Um , so , yeah , the  this past week I 've been main mainly occupied with , um , getting some results , u from the SRI system trained on this short Hub - five training set for the mean subtraction method. And , um , I ran some tests last night. But , um , c the results are suspicious. Um , it 's , um ,  cuz they 're  the baseline results are worse than , um , Andreas  than results Andreas got previously. And  it could have something to do with , um


OK. Um , so , yeah , the  this past week I 've been main mainly occupied with , um , getting some results , u from the SRI system trained on this short Hub - five training set for the mean subtraction method. And , um , I ran some tests last night. But , um , c the results are suspicious. Um , it 's , um ,  cuz they 're  the baseline results are worse than , um , Andreas  than results Andreas got previously. And  it could have something to do with , um

That 's on digits. It c it  it could h it could have something to do with , um , downsampling.