Yes. So, we've been in regular conversation with Universities Wales and through them with Universities UK and we've received every indication that the approach that's been adopted here has been welcomed by the institutions. Those conversations will continue as we work through the practicalities of how the gradings that are awarded are going to feed through into university admissions decisions and enrolment.

Okay, thank you. Well, we've got some questions now from Suzy on the potential closures of colleges and universities.

Okay. Well, it's a very general question, really. I appreciate you've already indicated there are lots of ongoing conversations, but my understanding is whether colleges or universities close is pretty much still at their own discretion. We're going to be asking some questions on emergency legislation shortly, which may impact on the answer you can give today, but what sort of conversations are you having with FE and HE at the moment about how they decide?

Well, you're absolutely right. As we often say in this committee, universities are autonomous institutions—a status that they guard jealously and we would never want to question. Universities have been making the decision to move as much of their learning online as they possibly can and we continue to have conversations with them. Colleges are in a similar position, looking to do as much as they can to be able to provide continuity of learning via distance learning methods, and the Bill, potentially, does give us more powers of intervention in both the FE and the HE sector.


Okay, thank you. Well, we've got some questions now from Suzy on the potential closures of colleges and universities.

Okay. Well, it's a very general question, really. I appreciate you've already indicated there are lots of ongoing conversations, but my understanding is whether colleges or universities close is pretty much still at their own discretion. We're going to be asking some questions on emergency legislation shortly, which may impact on the answer you can give today, but what sort of conversations are you having with FE and HE at the moment about how they decide?

Well, you're absolutely right. As we often say in this committee, universities are autonomous institutions—a status that they guard jealously and we would never want to question. Universities have been making the decision to move as much of their learning online as they possibly can and we continue to have conversations with them. Colleges are in a similar position, looking to do as much as they can to be able to provide continuity of learning via distance learning methods, and the Bill, potentially, does give us more powers of intervention in both the FE and the HE sector.

I might ask you about that in a minute, because I don't even know what the Bill says yet.


Okay. Well, it's a very general question, really. I appreciate you've already indicated there are lots of ongoing conversations, but my understanding is whether colleges or universities close is pretty much still at their own discretion. We're going to be asking some questions on emergency legislation shortly, which may impact on the answer you can give today, but what sort of conversations are you having with FE and HE at the moment about how they decide?

Well, you're absolutely right. As we often say in this committee, universities are autonomous institutions—a status that they guard jealously and we would never want to question. Universities have been making the decision to move as much of their learning online as they possibly can and we continue to have conversations with them. Colleges are in a similar position, looking to do as much as they can to be able to provide continuity of learning via distance learning methods, and the Bill, potentially, does give us more powers of intervention in both the FE and the HE sector.

I might ask you about that in a minute, because I don't even know what the Bill says yet.

Huw, I don't know if there's anything you want to add.


Well, you're absolutely right. As we often say in this committee, universities are autonomous institutions—a status that they guard jealously and we would never want to question. Universities have been making the decision to move as much of their learning online as they possibly can and we continue to have conversations with them. Colleges are in a similar position, looking to do as much as they can to be able to provide continuity of learning via distance learning methods, and the Bill, potentially, does give us more powers of intervention in both the FE and the HE sector.

I might ask you about that in a minute, because I don't even know what the Bill says yet.

Huw, I don't know if there's anything you want to add.

No—just to confirm what's been said and also to add in that independent training providers, similarly autonomous, like colleges and universities, have been moving in the same direction. We've been very impressed with the maturity and forward-planning that's been adopted by all of those institutions and their representative bodies. We've got consistency in the approach and a common desire, and investment in moving towards online support for students.


I might ask you about that in a minute, because I don't even know what the Bill says yet.

Huw, I don't know if there's anything you want to add.

No—just to confirm what's been said and also to add in that independent training providers, similarly autonomous, like colleges and universities, have been moving in the same direction. We've been very impressed with the maturity and forward-planning that's been adopted by all of those institutions and their representative bodies. We've got consistency in the approach and a common desire, and investment in moving towards online support for students.

And there's still this safety net idea. Certainly, colleges have indicated, as with schools, that, for the most vulnerable learners, they'll have something in place that might permit attendance on an individual basis.


Huw, I don't know if there's anything you want to add.

No—just to confirm what's been said and also to add in that independent training providers, similarly autonomous, like colleges and universities, have been moving in the same direction. We've been very impressed with the maturity and forward-planning that's been adopted by all of those institutions and their representative bodies. We've got consistency in the approach and a common desire, and investment in moving towards online support for students.

And there's still this safety net idea. Certainly, colleges have indicated, as with schools, that, for the most vulnerable learners, they'll have something in place that might permit attendance on an individual basis.

That's my understanding, yes, and, again, we've been in regular conversation with them about that. My understanding is that they're going to spend the next week working through the detail of how that will work for the institutions.


No—just to confirm what's been said and also to add in that independent training providers, similarly autonomous, like colleges and universities, have been moving in the same direction. We've been very impressed with the maturity and forward-planning that's been adopted by all of those institutions and their representative bodies. We've got consistency in the approach and a common desire, and investment in moving towards online support for students.

And there's still this safety net idea. Certainly, colleges have indicated, as with schools, that, for the most vulnerable learners, they'll have something in place that might permit attendance on an individual basis.

That's my understanding, yes, and, again, we've been in regular conversation with them about that. My understanding is that they're going to spend the next week working through the detail of how that will work for the institutions.

That's fair enough. And, presumably, education maintenance allowance will still be paid.


And there's still this safety net idea. Certainly, colleges have indicated, as with schools, that, for the most vulnerable learners, they'll have something in place that might permit attendance on an individual basis.

That's my understanding, yes, and, again, we've been in regular conversation with them about that. My understanding is that they're going to spend the next week working through the detail of how that will work for the institutions.

That's fair enough. And, presumably, education maintenance allowance will still be paid.

Yes. Arrangements have been made to ensure that EMA continues to be paid to all students who are entitled.


That's my understanding, yes, and, again, we've been in regular conversation with them about that. My understanding is that they're going to spend the next week working through the detail of how that will work for the institutions.

That's fair enough. And, presumably, education maintenance allowance will still be paid.

Yes. Arrangements have been made to ensure that EMA continues to be paid to all students who are entitled.

That's right. You indicated that any Welsh Government support's going to stay, whatever the circumstances are—in your portfolio.


That's fair enough. And, presumably, education maintenance allowance will still be paid.

Yes. Arrangements have been made to ensure that EMA continues to be paid to all students who are entitled.

That's right. You indicated that any Welsh Government support's going to stay, whatever the circumstances are—in your portfolio.

Yes. I'm doing my best, but it's an absolute yes on the EMA. There will be no disruption to EMA.


Yes. Arrangements have been made to ensure that EMA continues to be paid to all students who are entitled.

That's right. You indicated that any Welsh Government support's going to stay, whatever the circumstances are—in your portfolio.

Yes. I'm doing my best, but it's an absolute yes on the EMA. There will be no disruption to EMA.

Okay. You might get some further questions on HE and FE.


That's right. You indicated that any Welsh Government support's going to stay, whatever the circumstances are—in your portfolio.

Yes. I'm doing my best, but it's an absolute yes on the EMA. There will be no disruption to EMA.

Okay. You might get some further questions on HE and FE.

Yes. We've got some further questions, indeed, from Helen Mary and then Hefin.


Yes. I'm doing my best, but it's an absolute yes on the EMA. There will be no disruption to EMA.

Okay. You might get some further questions on HE and FE.

Yes. We've got some further questions, indeed, from Helen Mary and then Hefin.


Okay. You might get some further questions on HE and FE.

Yes. We've got some further questions, indeed, from Helen Mary and then Hefin.


Yes. We've got some further questions, indeed, from Helen Mary and then Hefin.

Just further to EMA, of course, at the moment, that has an attendance qualification, doesn't it? And you don't get your EMA if you don't turn up. Should we take from your last answer that that attendance qualification doesn't apply anymore?


Just further to EMA, of course, at the moment, that has an attendance qualification, doesn't it? And you don't get your EMA if you don't turn up. Should we take from your last answer that that attendance qualification doesn't apply anymore?

Yes. They can't turn up if the institution is not open, and that's not their fault.


Just further to EMA, of course, at the moment, that has an attendance qualification, doesn't it? And you don't get your EMA if you don't turn up. Should we take from your last answer that that attendance qualification doesn't apply anymore?

Yes. They can't turn up if the institution is not open, and that's not their fault.

No, but that is something that's been a worry, so that's really encouraging to hear. Thinking about students in higher education, can you give an assurance that student maintenance payments will continue as normal? Is that the intention?


Yes. They can't turn up if the institution is not open, and that's not their fault.

No, but that is something that's been a worry, so that's really encouraging to hear. Thinking about students in higher education, can you give an assurance that student maintenance payments will continue as normal? Is that the intention?

That's really good to hear. And have you given any special ministerial instruction to Student Finance Wales on processing applications for support or changes of circumstances, or is that something that's kind of ongoing at the moment?


No, but that is something that's been a worry, so that's really encouraging to hear. Thinking about students in higher education, can you give an assurance that student maintenance payments will continue as normal? Is that the intention?

That's really good to hear. And have you given any special ministerial instruction to Student Finance Wales on processing applications for support or changes of circumstances, or is that something that's kind of ongoing at the moment?

Those conversations are ongoing with the Student Loans Company. As I said, we anticipate no disruption to—. We don't anticipate any change in the approach to students as a result of this. Individual student circumstances could well change and our expectation would be that the Student Loans Company would respond to that. All I would say is, just to remind people: people who work for the Student Loans Company are no more able to resist this disease than anybody else. There will undoubtedly in some cases be really practical challenges to service delivery, simply because organisations could be losing staff because of illness or the need to self-isolate or because they are reacting to social-distancing messages from the Government. So, I think we just need to bear that in mind: that these organisations are doing their best, but, if they are badly affected by staff numbers being off because of the virus, then I hope people will give them due consideration.


That's really good to hear. And have you given any special ministerial instruction to Student Finance Wales on processing applications for support or changes of circumstances, or is that something that's kind of ongoing at the moment?

Those conversations are ongoing with the Student Loans Company. As I said, we anticipate no disruption to—. We don't anticipate any change in the approach to students as a result of this. Individual student circumstances could well change and our expectation would be that the Student Loans Company would respond to that. All I would say is, just to remind people: people who work for the Student Loans Company are no more able to resist this disease than anybody else. There will undoubtedly in some cases be really practical challenges to service delivery, simply because organisations could be losing staff because of illness or the need to self-isolate or because they are reacting to social-distancing messages from the Government. So, I think we just need to bear that in mind: that these organisations are doing their best, but, if they are badly affected by staff numbers being off because of the virus, then I hope people will give them due consideration.

Yes, that makes sense, of course, because we've been told that universities won't be able to entirely close, because there will be students who can't go home—


Those conversations are ongoing with the Student Loans Company. As I said, we anticipate no disruption to—. We don't anticipate any change in the approach to students as a result of this. Individual student circumstances could well change and our expectation would be that the Student Loans Company would respond to that. All I would say is, just to remind people: people who work for the Student Loans Company are no more able to resist this disease than anybody else. There will undoubtedly in some cases be really practical challenges to service delivery, simply because organisations could be losing staff because of illness or the need to self-isolate or because they are reacting to social-distancing messages from the Government. So, I think we just need to bear that in mind: that these organisations are doing their best, but, if they are badly affected by staff numbers being off because of the virus, then I hope people will give them due consideration.

Yes, that makes sense, of course, because we've been told that universities won't be able to entirely close, because there will be students who can't go home—

—overseas students, for example. What discussions have you been having with the sector to make sure that those students' basic needs are met, that there's still food, shelter, whatever they need?


Yes, that makes sense, of course, because we've been told that universities won't be able to entirely close, because there will be students who can't go home—

—overseas students, for example. What discussions have you been having with the sector to make sure that those students' basic needs are met, that there's still food, shelter, whatever they need?

Well, obviously, universities have a duty of care to those students that find themselves in those circumstances, and every conversation that Huw's been having would suggest that universities are well aware of their need to do that.


—overseas students, for example. What discussions have you been having with the sector to make sure that those students' basic needs are met, that there's still food, shelter, whatever they need?

Well, obviously, universities have a duty of care to those students that find themselves in those circumstances, and every conversation that Huw's been having would suggest that universities are well aware of their need to do that.

We instituted a monitoring process very early on in the onset of the disease, not least because a number of institutions have campuses and activities in China and other parts of south-east Asia. And so, as the disease has progressed, we've seen lessons being learned from the support for students who are in isolation coming from there to the UK, and I am assured that the universities here in Wales have got processes in place that support those learners.


—overseas students, for example. What discussions have you been having with the sector to make sure that those students' basic needs are met, that there's still food, shelter, whatever they need?

Well, obviously, universities have a duty of care to those students that find themselves in those circumstances, and every conversation that Huw's been having would suggest that universities are well aware of their need to do that.

We instituted a monitoring process very early on in the onset of the disease, not least because a number of institutions have campuses and activities in China and other parts of south-east Asia. And so, as the disease has progressed, we've seen lessons being learned from the support for students who are in isolation coming from there to the UK, and I am assured that the universities here in Wales have got processes in place that support those learners.

That's really helpful. And on this specifically—last question from me— have you considered whether students might need to be refunded some of their tuition fees, should the academic year not be completed?


Well, obviously, universities have a duty of care to those students that find themselves in those circumstances, and every conversation that Huw's been having would suggest that universities are well aware of their need to do that.

We instituted a monitoring process very early on in the onset of the disease, not least because a number of institutions have campuses and activities in China and other parts of south-east Asia. And so, as the disease has progressed, we've seen lessons being learned from the support for students who are in isolation coming from there to the UK, and I am assured that the universities here in Wales have got processes in place that support those learners.

That's really helpful. And on this specifically—last question from me— have you considered whether students might need to be refunded some of their tuition fees, should the academic year not be completed?

So, as the institutions move more and more of their material and some of their assessment online, clearly, there are lessons that will need to be taken on board. There are established quality assurance and enhancement procedures in institutions to enable the tutors and other supporters to make sure that that material meets their needs. The intention in all of these institutions is that they will complete their course of study. There are appeals mechanisms and feedback mechanisms through the students union and through course committees and other things within institutions to make sure that any concerns or incomplete work are addressed. Failing those institutional mechanisms, there is a UK-wide system through the Office of the Independent Adjudicator for students to take forward any concerns that they have. So, we're confident that that system will be robust and will make sure that the students are getting a course of learning that meets their needs.


We instituted a monitoring process very early on in the onset of the disease, not least because a number of institutions have campuses and activities in China and other parts of south-east Asia. And so, as the disease has progressed, we've seen lessons being learned from the support for students who are in isolation coming from there to the UK, and I am assured that the universities here in Wales have got processes in place that support those learners.

That's really helpful. And on this specifically—last question from me— have you considered whether students might need to be refunded some of their tuition fees, should the academic year not be completed?

So, as the institutions move more and more of their material and some of their assessment online, clearly, there are lessons that will need to be taken on board. There are established quality assurance and enhancement procedures in institutions to enable the tutors and other supporters to make sure that that material meets their needs. The intention in all of these institutions is that they will complete their course of study. There are appeals mechanisms and feedback mechanisms through the students union and through course committees and other things within institutions to make sure that any concerns or incomplete work are addressed. Failing those institutional mechanisms, there is a UK-wide system through the Office of the Independent Adjudicator for students to take forward any concerns that they have. So, we're confident that that system will be robust and will make sure that the students are getting a course of learning that meets their needs.


That's really helpful. And on this specifically—last question from me— have you considered whether students might need to be refunded some of their tuition fees, should the academic year not be completed?

So, as the institutions move more and more of their material and some of their assessment online, clearly, there are lessons that will need to be taken on board. There are established quality assurance and enhancement procedures in institutions to enable the tutors and other supporters to make sure that that material meets their needs. The intention in all of these institutions is that they will complete their course of study. There are appeals mechanisms and feedback mechanisms through the students union and through course committees and other things within institutions to make sure that any concerns or incomplete work are addressed. Failing those institutional mechanisms, there is a UK-wide system through the Office of the Independent Adjudicator for students to take forward any concerns that they have. So, we're confident that that system will be robust and will make sure that the students are getting a course of learning that meets their needs.


So, as the institutions move more and more of their material and some of their assessment online, clearly, there are lessons that will need to be taken on board. There are established quality assurance and enhancement procedures in institutions to enable the tutors and other supporters to make sure that that material meets their needs. The intention in all of these institutions is that they will complete their course of study. There are appeals mechanisms and feedback mechanisms through the students union and through course committees and other things within institutions to make sure that any concerns or incomplete work are addressed. Failing those institutional mechanisms, there is a UK-wide system through the Office of the Independent Adjudicator for students to take forward any concerns that they have. So, we're confident that that system will be robust and will make sure that the students are getting a course of learning that meets their needs.

Okay. We've got a couple more questions now on vulnerable learners. I've got Helen Mary, then Hefin.


Okay. We've got a couple more questions now on vulnerable learners. I've got Helen Mary, then Hefin.

I think, Chair, the Minister has already answered what the—. But thinking just a little bit more broadly about the mental health and well-being of staff and learners across a range of educational settings, or, indeed, young people who can't access educational settings, what considerations are you giving to how that mental health and well-being might be supported through what is an incredibly difficult time for everyone?


Okay. We've got a couple more questions now on vulnerable learners. I've got Helen Mary, then Hefin.

I think, Chair, the Minister has already answered what the—. But thinking just a little bit more broadly about the mental health and well-being of staff and learners across a range of educational settings, or, indeed, young people who can't access educational settings, what considerations are you giving to how that mental health and well-being might be supported through what is an incredibly difficult time for everyone?

Yes, that is correct. So, our expectation would be that during a prolonged period of closure—which I think, if we're honest, we have to acknowledge is what we're looking at—we would expect school staff—well-being staff, for instance in school—to be doing check-ins—phone check-ins, potentially, or FaceTime check-ins, with students, just to keep in touch with them as we go forward. We'll be looking to promote amongst young people a range of online facilities that are available—so, for instance, Meic website—so, looking to use a variety of platforms. We do, of course, have the formal NHS counselling services. I'm concerned, of course, that for some children their access to their counsellor is via their school. We know that, and we're just double checking the capacity of online counselling that already exists—online counselling tools that children already use because they don't want to go to the counsellor in the school and be seen in the school corridor going to the counsellor. They're already using those online methods and we expect to be able to continue, as far as possible, those kinds of mechanisms where children can have their mental health needs and their questions answered, and their worries. I think we have to remember that this is a really worrying time for children and young people. One of the reasons, again, that we wanted to keep schools going as long as possible—and teachers have been working so hard to do that—is because that routine of going into school and that normality is one that we've needed and wanted to maintain. Children will have worries about their own health; they'll have worries about the health of their parents and their grandparents; they will be consuming potentially media and news stories that have empty supermarket shelves. So, we need to understand, and I think we will also have to recognise, that this support will have to be ongoing once we're back to normal, and we will have to continue to look to support children in the longer term who will have lived through this experience. They are incredibly resilient, and they have been the champions of some of our public health messages. They are so much better and so much more compliant on the whole 'washing your hands' and things like that than even adults have been. So, they are incredibly resilient, but we also have to recognise that it can be a really worrying time for them.


Okay. We've got a couple more questions now on vulnerable learners. I've got Helen Mary, then Hefin.

I think, Chair, the Minister has already answered what the—. But thinking just a little bit more broadly about the mental health and well-being of staff and learners across a range of educational settings, or, indeed, young people who can't access educational settings, what considerations are you giving to how that mental health and well-being might be supported through what is an incredibly difficult time for everyone?

Yes, that is correct. So, our expectation would be that during a prolonged period of closure—which I think, if we're honest, we have to acknowledge is what we're looking at—we would expect school staff—well-being staff, for instance in school—to be doing check-ins—phone check-ins, potentially, or FaceTime check-ins, with students, just to keep in touch with them as we go forward. We'll be looking to promote amongst young people a range of online facilities that are available—so, for instance, Meic website—so, looking to use a variety of platforms. We do, of course, have the formal NHS counselling services. I'm concerned, of course, that for some children their access to their counsellor is via their school. We know that, and we're just double checking the capacity of online counselling that already exists—online counselling tools that children already use because they don't want to go to the counsellor in the school and be seen in the school corridor going to the counsellor. They're already using those online methods and we expect to be able to continue, as far as possible, those kinds of mechanisms where children can have their mental health needs and their questions answered, and their worries. I think we have to remember that this is a really worrying time for children and young people. One of the reasons, again, that we wanted to keep schools going as long as possible—and teachers have been working so hard to do that—is because that routine of going into school and that normality is one that we've needed and wanted to maintain. Children will have worries about their own health; they'll have worries about the health of their parents and their grandparents; they will be consuming potentially media and news stories that have empty supermarket shelves. So, we need to understand, and I think we will also have to recognise, that this support will have to be ongoing once we're back to normal, and we will have to continue to look to support children in the longer term who will have lived through this experience. They are incredibly resilient, and they have been the champions of some of our public health messages. They are so much better and so much more compliant on the whole 'washing your hands' and things like that than even adults have been. So, they are incredibly resilient, but we also have to recognise that it can be a really worrying time for them.

Can I just—? Just a supplementary to that—you've mentioned already, Kirsty, the importance of youth services, and, particularly thinking voluntarily youth services, you've given the commitment, when were talking about Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin earlier, that services that are part-funded by grants through the Welsh Government, for example, thinking of the national youth voluntary service—will those be able to be maintained even if settings have had to be shut as well? Obviously, local authorities will have to make their own decisions about whether youth settings are kept open, but, in terms of the direct support from Welsh Government, can organisations that receive it rely on that through this time?


I think, Chair, the Minister has already answered what the—. But thinking just a little bit more broadly about the mental health and well-being of staff and learners across a range of educational settings, or, indeed, young people who can't access educational settings, what considerations are you giving to how that mental health and well-being might be supported through what is an incredibly difficult time for everyone?

Yes, that is correct. So, our expectation would be that during a prolonged period of closure—which I think, if we're honest, we have to acknowledge is what we're looking at—we would expect school staff—well-being staff, for instance in school—to be doing check-ins—phone check-ins, potentially, or FaceTime check-ins, with students, just to keep in touch with them as we go forward. We'll be looking to promote amongst young people a range of online facilities that are available—so, for instance, Meic website—so, looking to use a variety of platforms. We do, of course, have the formal NHS counselling services. I'm concerned, of course, that for some children their access to their counsellor is via their school. We know that, and we're just double checking the capacity of online counselling that already exists—online counselling tools that children already use because they don't want to go to the counsellor in the school and be seen in the school corridor going to the counsellor. They're already using those online methods and we expect to be able to continue, as far as possible, those kinds of mechanisms where children can have their mental health needs and their questions answered, and their worries. I think we have to remember that this is a really worrying time for children and young people. One of the reasons, again, that we wanted to keep schools going as long as possible—and teachers have been working so hard to do that—is because that routine of going into school and that normality is one that we've needed and wanted to maintain. Children will have worries about their own health; they'll have worries about the health of their parents and their grandparents; they will be consuming potentially media and news stories that have empty supermarket shelves. So, we need to understand, and I think we will also have to recognise, that this support will have to be ongoing once we're back to normal, and we will have to continue to look to support children in the longer term who will have lived through this experience. They are incredibly resilient, and they have been the champions of some of our public health messages. They are so much better and so much more compliant on the whole 'washing your hands' and things like that than even adults have been. So, they are incredibly resilient, but we also have to recognise that it can be a really worrying time for them.

Can I just—? Just a supplementary to that—you've mentioned already, Kirsty, the importance of youth services, and, particularly thinking voluntarily youth services, you've given the commitment, when were talking about Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin earlier, that services that are part-funded by grants through the Welsh Government, for example, thinking of the national youth voluntary service—will those be able to be maintained even if settings have had to be shut as well? Obviously, local authorities will have to make their own decisions about whether youth settings are kept open, but, in terms of the direct support from Welsh Government, can organisations that receive it rely on that through this time?

No formal decision has been made, but if people are in receipt of a Government grant from my department to run a service and that service can no longer run because of the public—


Yes, that is correct. So, our expectation would be that during a prolonged period of closure—which I think, if we're honest, we have to acknowledge is what we're looking at—we would expect school staff—well-being staff, for instance in school—to be doing check-ins—phone check-ins, potentially, or FaceTime check-ins, with students, just to keep in touch with them as we go forward. We'll be looking to promote amongst young people a range of online facilities that are available—so, for instance, Meic website—so, looking to use a variety of platforms. We do, of course, have the formal NHS counselling services. I'm concerned, of course, that for some children their access to their counsellor is via their school. We know that, and we're just double checking the capacity of online counselling that already exists—online counselling tools that children already use because they don't want to go to the counsellor in the school and be seen in the school corridor going to the counsellor. They're already using those online methods and we expect to be able to continue, as far as possible, those kinds of mechanisms where children can have their mental health needs and their questions answered, and their worries. I think we have to remember that this is a really worrying time for children and young people. One of the reasons, again, that we wanted to keep schools going as long as possible—and teachers have been working so hard to do that—is because that routine of going into school and that normality is one that we've needed and wanted to maintain. Children will have worries about their own health; they'll have worries about the health of their parents and their grandparents; they will be consuming potentially media and news stories that have empty supermarket shelves. So, we need to understand, and I think we will also have to recognise, that this support will have to be ongoing once we're back to normal, and we will have to continue to look to support children in the longer term who will have lived through this experience. They are incredibly resilient, and they have been the champions of some of our public health messages. They are so much better and so much more compliant on the whole 'washing your hands' and things like that than even adults have been. So, they are incredibly resilient, but we also have to recognise that it can be a really worrying time for them.

Can I just—? Just a supplementary to that—you've mentioned already, Kirsty, the importance of youth services, and, particularly thinking voluntarily youth services, you've given the commitment, when were talking about Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin earlier, that services that are part-funded by grants through the Welsh Government, for example, thinking of the national youth voluntary service—will those be able to be maintained even if settings have had to be shut as well? Obviously, local authorities will have to make their own decisions about whether youth settings are kept open, but, in terms of the direct support from Welsh Government, can organisations that receive it rely on that through this time?

No formal decision has been made, but if people are in receipt of a Government grant from my department to run a service and that service can no longer run because of the public—


Can I just—? Just a supplementary to that—you've mentioned already, Kirsty, the importance of youth services, and, particularly thinking voluntarily youth services, you've given the commitment, when were talking about Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin earlier, that services that are part-funded by grants through the Welsh Government, for example, thinking of the national youth voluntary service—will those be able to be maintained even if settings have had to be shut as well? Obviously, local authorities will have to make their own decisions about whether youth settings are kept open, but, in terms of the direct support from Welsh Government, can organisations that receive it rely on that through this time?

No formal decision has been made, but if people are in receipt of a Government grant from my department to run a service and that service can no longer run because of the public—

—because it's not safe to do so, I do not foresee that we will be turning around and saying, 'We'll have our money back, thank you very much.'


No formal decision has been made, but if people are in receipt of a Government grant from my department to run a service and that service can no longer run because of the public—

—because it's not safe to do so, I do not foresee that we will be turning around and saying, 'We'll have our money back, thank you very much.'


—because it's not safe to do so, I do not foresee that we will be turning around and saying, 'We'll have our money back, thank you very much.'

That will make a lot of people happy, thank you. [Laughter.]


—because it's not safe to do so, I do not foresee that we will be turning around and saying, 'We'll have our money back, thank you very much.'

That will make a lot of people happy, thank you. [Laughter.]

As I said, we are facing unprecedented circumstances. The normal rules of engagement have to change and, those organisations, we'll need them to be providing youth services for children when we are back to normal, and we wouldn't want to do anything that would undermine their ability to do that. Our call to the youth service is a call to arms, though. When we're trying to maintain services for vulnerable children and for front-line staff children, they have a valuable role to play and I know that local government and the Council for Wales of Voluntary Youth Services are already in discussion about how youth services—. Many of our youth services work on an outreach basis. Those traditional youth clubs, because of austerity, are not necessarily there anymore, so they are well used to being out and about and doing outreach work, and they will have an important part to play in the services that we talked about earlier.


That will make a lot of people happy, thank you. [Laughter.]

As I said, we are facing unprecedented circumstances. The normal rules of engagement have to change and, those organisations, we'll need them to be providing youth services for children when we are back to normal, and we wouldn't want to do anything that would undermine their ability to do that. Our call to the youth service is a call to arms, though. When we're trying to maintain services for vulnerable children and for front-line staff children, they have a valuable role to play and I know that local government and the Council for Wales of Voluntary Youth Services are already in discussion about how youth services—. Many of our youth services work on an outreach basis. Those traditional youth clubs, because of austerity, are not necessarily there anymore, so they are well used to being out and about and doing outreach work, and they will have an important part to play in the services that we talked about earlier.


That will make a lot of people happy, thank you. [Laughter.]

As I said, we are facing unprecedented circumstances. The normal rules of engagement have to change and, those organisations, we'll need them to be providing youth services for children when we are back to normal, and we wouldn't want to do anything that would undermine their ability to do that. Our call to the youth service is a call to arms, though. When we're trying to maintain services for vulnerable children and for front-line staff children, they have a valuable role to play and I know that local government and the Council for Wales of Voluntary Youth Services are already in discussion about how youth services—. Many of our youth services work on an outreach basis. Those traditional youth clubs, because of austerity, are not necessarily there anymore, so they are well used to being out and about and doing outreach work, and they will have an important part to play in the services that we talked about earlier.

Okay, thank you. Hefin, briefly, and then we're going to take one final question from Suzy on emergency legislation.


As I said, we are facing unprecedented circumstances. The normal rules of engagement have to change and, those organisations, we'll need them to be providing youth services for children when we are back to normal, and we wouldn't want to do anything that would undermine their ability to do that. Our call to the youth service is a call to arms, though. When we're trying to maintain services for vulnerable children and for front-line staff children, they have a valuable role to play and I know that local government and the Council for Wales of Voluntary Youth Services are already in discussion about how youth services—. Many of our youth services work on an outreach basis. Those traditional youth clubs, because of austerity, are not necessarily there anymore, so they are well used to being out and about and doing outreach work, and they will have an important part to play in the services that we talked about earlier.

Okay, thank you. Hefin, briefly, and then we're going to take one final question from Suzy on emergency legislation.

All right. I'll declare an interest as a parent of a child with additional learning needs, although the question I'm about to ask doesn't reflect her interests. Additional learning needs pupils who are waiting outcomes of referrals—if they're currently waiting an outcome of a referral, will that process will be suspended or will it continue as normal? And, if it is suspended, will it pick up where it left off from this point?


Okay, thank you. Hefin, briefly, and then we're going to take one final question from Suzy on emergency legislation.

All right. I'll declare an interest as a parent of a child with additional learning needs, although the question I'm about to ask doesn't reflect her interests. Additional learning needs pupils who are waiting outcomes of referrals—if they're currently waiting an outcome of a referral, will that process will be suspended or will it continue as normal? And, if it is suspended, will it pick up where it left off from this point?

I think we have to recognise that the ability to deliver business as usual has been massively compromised. I'm sure people will try and continue to do their normal activities and their normal jobs, but that might not be possible. I will have to check that, Hefin, to be honest. I don't want to give you any false assurance if, actually, the intelligence on the ground is that that simply will not be able to happen. But we don't—


All right. I'll declare an interest as a parent of a child with additional learning needs, although the question I'm about to ask doesn't reflect her interests. Additional learning needs pupils who are waiting outcomes of referrals—if they're currently waiting an outcome of a referral, will that process will be suspended or will it continue as normal? And, if it is suspended, will it pick up where it left off from this point?

I think we have to recognise that the ability to deliver business as usual has been massively compromised. I'm sure people will try and continue to do their normal activities and their normal jobs, but that might not be possible. I will have to check that, Hefin, to be honest. I don't want to give you any false assurance if, actually, the intelligence on the ground is that that simply will not be able to happen. But we don't—

We don't want to jeopardise anybody, but as I said, some of the normal services are simply not available as everybody turns their attention to trying to respond to the pandemic.


I think we have to recognise that the ability to deliver business as usual has been massively compromised. I'm sure people will try and continue to do their normal activities and their normal jobs, but that might not be possible. I will have to check that, Hefin, to be honest. I don't want to give you any false assurance if, actually, the intelligence on the ground is that that simply will not be able to happen. But we don't—

We don't want to jeopardise anybody, but as I said, some of the normal services are simply not available as everybody turns their attention to trying to respond to the pandemic.

Okay, thank you. Final question—because I know that the Minister's got a lot of things that she needs to get on with—from Suzy on emergency legislation.


We don't want to jeopardise anybody, but as I said, some of the normal services are simply not available as everybody turns their attention to trying to respond to the pandemic.

Okay, thank you. Final question—because I know that the Minister's got a lot of things that she needs to get on with—from Suzy on emergency legislation.

I'm not going to ask you if you'll use any powers you get under the emergency legislation, but are you able to give us some indication of what they might be?


We don't want to jeopardise anybody, but as I said, some of the normal services are simply not available as everybody turns their attention to trying to respond to the pandemic.

Okay, thank you. Final question—because I know that the Minister's got a lot of things that she needs to get on with—from Suzy on emergency legislation.

I'm not going to ask you if you'll use any powers you get under the emergency legislation, but are you able to give us some indication of what they might be?

Sure. For instance, the Bill will provide Welsh Ministers with powers to temporarily close schools or other educational institutions, childcare premises; powers to give temporary continuity direction—so, actually, the other way around, force things to be open—and to be able to direct resources. So, that includes, as I said, I could direct something to stay open if that institution was trying to close down. The powers also give flexibility to maybe be able to direct staff to other institutions that they would not normally work in, if that was part of our resilience needs. We'd also be looking at, for instance, relaxing requirements around ratios in childcare settings, or we might be wanting to do things around food. So, obviously, we have rules around the level of nutrition that schools should be giving their children. If there is a continuing role for schools in providing food, we might have to be a bit more flexible about what that might look like. So, those kinds of flexibilities—to be able to suspend things, direct things—that we would not normally have in normal circumstances.


Okay, thank you. Final question—because I know that the Minister's got a lot of things that she needs to get on with—from Suzy on emergency legislation.

I'm not going to ask you if you'll use any powers you get under the emergency legislation, but are you able to give us some indication of what they might be?

Sure. For instance, the Bill will provide Welsh Ministers with powers to temporarily close schools or other educational institutions, childcare premises; powers to give temporary continuity direction—so, actually, the other way around, force things to be open—and to be able to direct resources. So, that includes, as I said, I could direct something to stay open if that institution was trying to close down. The powers also give flexibility to maybe be able to direct staff to other institutions that they would not normally work in, if that was part of our resilience needs. We'd also be looking at, for instance, relaxing requirements around ratios in childcare settings, or we might be wanting to do things around food. So, obviously, we have rules around the level of nutrition that schools should be giving their children. If there is a continuing role for schools in providing food, we might have to be a bit more flexible about what that might look like. So, those kinds of flexibilities—to be able to suspend things, direct things—that we would not normally have in normal circumstances.

Okay. And just to finish this one off—you may not be able to answer this one, in all fairness—in those situations where it's the Government who says 'no' to various things, does that then help people in the situation of Dawn's nursery, and insurance claims suddenly become more likely?


I'm not going to ask you if you'll use any powers you get under the emergency legislation, but are you able to give us some indication of what they might be?

Sure. For instance, the Bill will provide Welsh Ministers with powers to temporarily close schools or other educational institutions, childcare premises; powers to give temporary continuity direction—so, actually, the other way around, force things to be open—and to be able to direct resources. So, that includes, as I said, I could direct something to stay open if that institution was trying to close down. The powers also give flexibility to maybe be able to direct staff to other institutions that they would not normally work in, if that was part of our resilience needs. We'd also be looking at, for instance, relaxing requirements around ratios in childcare settings, or we might be wanting to do things around food. So, obviously, we have rules around the level of nutrition that schools should be giving their children. If there is a continuing role for schools in providing food, we might have to be a bit more flexible about what that might look like. So, those kinds of flexibilities—to be able to suspend things, direct things—that we would not normally have in normal circumstances.

Okay. And just to finish this one off—you may not be able to answer this one, in all fairness—in those situations where it's the Government who says 'no' to various things, does that then help people in the situation of Dawn's nursery, and insurance claims suddenly become more likely?

I'm not an expert on insurance, and I don't know if anybody here can help me. But what my understanding is, is that even where Government has given a direction that does not necessarily mean that you will be covered by your insurance. What we're finding in the private sector is that insurance companies are not paying out, because even when a Government has directed it, they do not regard this as a disruption to business. So, the insurance industry is not my area of expertise.


Sure. For instance, the Bill will provide Welsh Ministers with powers to temporarily close schools or other educational institutions, childcare premises; powers to give temporary continuity direction—so, actually, the other way around, force things to be open—and to be able to direct resources. So, that includes, as I said, I could direct something to stay open if that institution was trying to close down. The powers also give flexibility to maybe be able to direct staff to other institutions that they would not normally work in, if that was part of our resilience needs. We'd also be looking at, for instance, relaxing requirements around ratios in childcare settings, or we might be wanting to do things around food. So, obviously, we have rules around the level of nutrition that schools should be giving their children. If there is a continuing role for schools in providing food, we might have to be a bit more flexible about what that might look like. So, those kinds of flexibilities—to be able to suspend things, direct things—that we would not normally have in normal circumstances.

Okay. And just to finish this one off—you may not be able to answer this one, in all fairness—in those situations where it's the Government who says 'no' to various things, does that then help people in the situation of Dawn's nursery, and insurance claims suddenly become more likely?

I'm not an expert on insurance, and I don't know if anybody here can help me. But what my understanding is, is that even where Government has given a direction that does not necessarily mean that you will be covered by your insurance. What we're finding in the private sector is that insurance companies are not paying out, because even when a Government has directed it, they do not regard this as a disruption to business. So, the insurance industry is not my area of expertise.


Okay. And just to finish this one off—you may not be able to answer this one, in all fairness—in those situations where it's the Government who says 'no' to various things, does that then help people in the situation of Dawn's nursery, and insurance claims suddenly become more likely?

I'm not an expert on insurance, and I don't know if anybody here can help me. But what my understanding is, is that even where Government has given a direction that does not necessarily mean that you will be covered by your insurance. What we're finding in the private sector is that insurance companies are not paying out, because even when a Government has directed it, they do not regard this as a disruption to business. So, the insurance industry is not my area of expertise.

It's not my area of expertise, but from what I understand from discussions around the Cabinet table, this is particularly problematic. Let me give you an example about how we've been trying to overcome some of this—it feels like an awfully long time ago now— you'll be aware that we gave directions earlier around cancellation of school trips abroad. Trying to make sure that that direction came from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, rather than the Department for Education was a real battle, because again there were fears that, unless that advice came from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, insurance would not kick in, and that was a two-day discussion.


I'm not an expert on insurance, and I don't know if anybody here can help me. But what my understanding is, is that even where Government has given a direction that does not necessarily mean that you will be covered by your insurance. What we're finding in the private sector is that insurance companies are not paying out, because even when a Government has directed it, they do not regard this as a disruption to business. So, the insurance industry is not my area of expertise.

It's not my area of expertise, but from what I understand from discussions around the Cabinet table, this is particularly problematic. Let me give you an example about how we've been trying to overcome some of this—it feels like an awfully long time ago now— you'll be aware that we gave directions earlier around cancellation of school trips abroad. Trying to make sure that that direction came from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, rather than the Department for Education was a real battle, because again there were fears that, unless that advice came from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, insurance would not kick in, and that was a two-day discussion.

Okay. This is helpful to know, actually.


It's not my area of expertise, but from what I understand from discussions around the Cabinet table, this is particularly problematic. Let me give you an example about how we've been trying to overcome some of this—it feels like an awfully long time ago now— you'll be aware that we gave directions earlier around cancellation of school trips abroad. Trying to make sure that that direction came from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, rather than the Department for Education was a real battle, because again there were fears that, unless that advice came from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, insurance would not kick in, and that was a two-day discussion.

Okay. This is helpful to know, actually.

So, these are the kinds of things that we're grappling with. But, as I said, thinking about it, that was only last week, but it feels like an aeon ago.


It's not my area of expertise, but from what I understand from discussions around the Cabinet table, this is particularly problematic. Let me give you an example about how we've been trying to overcome some of this—it feels like an awfully long time ago now— you'll be aware that we gave directions earlier around cancellation of school trips abroad. Trying to make sure that that direction came from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, rather than the Department for Education was a real battle, because again there were fears that, unless that advice came from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, insurance would not kick in, and that was a two-day discussion.

Okay. This is helpful to know, actually.

So, these are the kinds of things that we're grappling with. But, as I said, thinking about it, that was only last week, but it feels like an aeon ago.

I'm not holding you to that, but it helps us manage the questions we get asked.


Okay. This is helpful to know, actually.

So, these are the kinds of things that we're grappling with. But, as I said, thinking about it, that was only last week, but it feels like an aeon ago.

I'm not holding you to that, but it helps us manage the questions we get asked.

Yes, but as I said, insurance is not my area of expertise.


So, these are the kinds of things that we're grappling with. But, as I said, thinking about it, that was only last week, but it feels like an aeon ago.

I'm not holding you to that, but it helps us manage the questions we get asked.

Yes, but as I said, insurance is not my area of expertise.


I'm not holding you to that, but it helps us manage the questions we get asked.

Yes, but as I said, insurance is not my area of expertise.

Okay. Well, we've come to the end of our time. Can I thank you for attending this morning, and your officials? We do recognise what an incredibly challenging time this is, and we'd like to place on record our thanks to all of you for the work that you're doing to try and see us through this crisis. As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting. Thank you again, all of you, for your attendance. Item 3, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Thank you.


Yes, but as I said, insurance is not my area of expertise.

Okay. Well, we've come to the end of our time. Can I thank you for attending this morning, and your officials? We do recognise what an incredibly challenging time this is, and we'd like to place on record our thanks to all of you for the work that you're doing to try and see us through this crisis. As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting. Thank you again, all of you, for your attendance. Item 3, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Thank you.


Right. Yeah , I 've have never handled them.


Right. Yeah , I 've have never handled them.

Goats eat cans , to my understanding. Tin cans.


Goats eat cans , to my understanding. Tin cans.


Could I hit  hit F - seven to do that ? on the  Robert ?


Wow , we 're all so high tech here. Yet another p PowerPoint presentation.


OK. So , Let 's see. Which one of these buttons will do this for me ? Aha ! OK.


Yeah , um  Well , " the search for the middle layer ". It 's basically uh talks about uh   It just refers to the fact that uh  one of main things we had to do was to  decide what the intermediate sort of nodes were ,


But if you really want to find out what it 's about you have to  click on the little  light bulb.


But if you really want to find out what it 's about you have to  click on the little  light bulb.

Although I 've  I 've never  I don't know what the light bulb is for. I didn't i install that into my  PowerPoint presentation.


But if you really want to find out what it 's about you have to  click on the little  light bulb.

Although I 've  I 've never  I don't know what the light bulb is for. I didn't i install that into my  PowerPoint presentation.

It opens the Assistant that tells you that the font type is too small.


Although I 've  I 've never  I don't know what the light bulb is for. I didn't i install that into my  PowerPoint presentation.

It opens the Assistant that tells you that the font type is too small.


It opens the Assistant that tells you that the font type is too small.


It 's a needless good idea. Is that the idea ?


It 's a needless good idea. Is that the idea ?

Why are you doing this in this mode and not in the presentation mode ?


It 's a needless good idea. Is that the idea ?

Why are you doing this in this mode and not in the presentation mode ?

Because I 'm gonna switch to the JavaBayes program


Why are you doing this in this mode and not in the presentation mode ?

Because I 'm gonna switch to the JavaBayes program


Because I 'm gonna switch to the JavaBayes program

and then  if I do that it 'll mess everything up.


and then  if I do that it 'll mess everything up.


You want me to  Wait , what do you want me to do ?


You want me to  Wait , what do you want me to do ?

Can you maximize the window so all that stuff on the side isn't  doesn't appear ?


You want me to  Wait , what do you want me to do ?

Can you maximize the window so all that stuff on the side isn't  doesn't appear ?

Well I can do that , but then I have to end the presentation in the middle so I can go back to open up


Can you maximize the window so all that stuff on the side isn't  doesn't appear ?

Well I can do that , but then I have to end the presentation in the middle so I can go back to open up


Well I can do that , but then I have to end the presentation in the middle so I can go back to open up


Uh  I 'll also get rid of this " Click to add notes ". OK.


Uh  I 'll also get rid of this " Click to add notes ". OK.

So then the features we decided  or we decided we were  talked about , right ? Uh the  the prosody , the discourse ,  verb choice. You know. We had a list of things like " to go " and " to visit " and what not. The " landmark - iness " of uh  I knew you 'd like that.


So then the features we decided  or we decided we were  talked about , right ? Uh the  the prosody , the discourse ,  verb choice. You know. We had a list of things like " to go " and " to visit " and what not. The " landmark - iness " of uh  I knew you 'd like that.

Thank you. uh , of a  of a building. Whether the and this i we actually have a separate feature but I decided to put it on the same line  for space. " Nice walls "  which we can look up because I mean if you 're gonna  get real close to a building in the Tango mode , right , there 's gotta be a reason for it. And it 's either because you 're in route to something else or you wanna look at the walls. The context , which in this case we 've limited to  " business person " , " tourist " , or  " unknown " , the time of day , and " open to suggestions " , isn't actually a feature. It 's  " We are open to suggestions. "


So then the features we decided  or we decided we were  talked about , right ? Uh the  the prosody , the discourse ,  verb choice. You know. We had a list of things like " to go " and " to visit " and what not. The " landmark - iness " of uh  I knew you 'd like that.

Thank you. uh , of a  of a building. Whether the and this i we actually have a separate feature but I decided to put it on the same line  for space. " Nice walls "  which we can look up because I mean if you 're gonna  get real close to a building in the Tango mode , right , there 's gotta be a reason for it. And it 's either because you 're in route to something else or you wanna look at the walls. The context , which in this case we 've limited to  " business person " , " tourist " , or  " unknown " , the time of day , and " open to suggestions " , isn't actually a feature. It 's  " We are open to suggestions. "

Right. can I just ask the nice walls part of it is that  uh , in this particular domain  you said  be  i it could be on two different lines but are you saying that in this particular domain it happens the  that landmark - iness cor is correlated with


Thank you. uh , of a  of a building. Whether the and this i we actually have a separate feature but I decided to put it on the same line  for space. " Nice walls "  which we can look up because I mean if you 're gonna  get real close to a building in the Tango mode , right , there 's gotta be a reason for it. And it 's either because you 're in route to something else or you wanna look at the walls. The context , which in this case we 've limited to  " business person " , " tourist " , or  " unknown " , the time of day , and " open to suggestions " , isn't actually a feature. It 's  " We are open to suggestions. "

Right. can I just ask the nice walls part of it is that  uh , in this particular domain  you said  be  i it could be on two different lines but are you saying that in this particular domain it happens the  that landmark - iness cor is correlated with


Right. can I just ask the nice walls part of it is that  uh , in this particular domain  you said  be  i it could be on two different lines but are you saying that in this particular domain it happens the  that landmark - iness cor is correlated with


I either could put " nice walls " on its own line or " open to suggestions " off the slide.


I either could put " nice walls " on its own line or " open to suggestions " off the slide.

You  Like you could have a post office with uh  you know , nice murals or something.


You  Like you could have a post office with uh  you know , nice murals or something.


So " nice walls " is a stand in for like architecturally it , uh  significant


So " nice walls " is a stand in for like architecturally it , uh  significant

Architecturally appealing from the outside.


Architecturally appealing from the outside.

Yeah but if it 's architecturally significant you might be able to see it from  Like you m might be able to " Vista " it ,


Yeah but if it 's architecturally significant you might be able to see it from  Like you m might be able to " Vista " it ,


Yeah , versus , like , I was at this place in Europe where they had little carvings of , like , dead people on the walls or something.


But if you looked at it real close , you could see the  the in intricacy of the  of the walls.


But if you looked at it real close , you could see the  the in intricacy of the  of the walls.

OK. So that count as  counts as a nice wall.


OK. So that count as  counts as a nice wall.


Something you want to inspect at close range  because it 's interesting.


Well there  there is a term  that 's often used. That 's " saliency " , or the " salience " of an object. And I was just wondering whether that 's the same as what you describe as " landmark - iness ". But it 's really not. I mean an object can be very salient


Well there  there is a term  that 's often used. That 's " saliency " , or the " salience " of an object. And I was just wondering whether that 's the same as what you describe as " landmark - iness ". But it 's really not. I mean an object can be very salient

Not a landmark at all. There 's landmark for um , touristic reasons and landmark for I don't know navigational reasons or something.


Not a landmark at all. There 's landmark for um , touristic reasons and landmark for I don't know navigational reasons or something.


Not a landmark at all. There 's landmark for um , touristic reasons and landmark for I don't know navigational reasons or something.

Yeah , we meant , uh , touristic reasons.


Yeah , we meant , uh , touristic reasons.


OK. but you can imagine maybe wanting the oth both kinds of things there for different um , goals.


But  Yeah. Tourist - y landmarks also happen to be  Wouldn't  couldn't they also be  They 're not exclusive groups , are they ? Like  non - tourist - y landmarks and


OK , So our initial idea was not very satisfying ,  because  uh our initial idea was basically all the features pointing to the output node. Uh.


And uh , so we  Reasons being , you know , it 'd be a pain to set up all the probabilities for that. If we moved onto the next step and did learning of some sort , uh according Bhaskara we 'd be handicapped. I don't know belief - nets very well.


And uh , so we  Reasons being , you know , it 'd be a pain to set up all the probabilities for that. If we moved onto the next step and did learning of some sort , uh according Bhaskara we 'd be handicapped. I don't know belief - nets very well.

Well usually , I mean , you know , N  If you have N features , then it 's two to the N   or exponential in N.


And uh , so we  Reasons being , you know , it 'd be a pain to set up all the probabilities for that. If we moved onto the next step and did learning of some sort , uh according Bhaskara we 'd be handicapped. I don't know belief - nets very well.

Well usually , I mean , you know , N  If you have N features , then it 's two to the N   or exponential in N.

Yeah , they 'd all be like pointing to the one node.


Well usually , I mean , you know , N  If you have N features , then it 's two to the N   or exponential in N.

Yeah , they 'd all be like pointing to the one node.


Yeah , they 'd all be like pointing to the one node.

Uh. So then our next idea was to add a middle layer , right ? So the thinking behind that was  we have the features that we 've drawn  from the communication of some  Like , the someone s The person at the screen is trying to communicate some abstract idea , like " I 'm  " the  the abstract idea being " I am a tourist I want to go  to this place. " Right ? So we 're gonna set up features along the lines of where they want to go and  what they 've said previously and whatnot. And then we have  the means  that they should use. Right ? but the middle thing , we were thinking along the lines of maybe trying to figure out , like , the concept of whether they 're a tourist  or  whether they 're running an errand or something like that along those lines. Or  Yes , we could things we couldn't extract the  from the data , the hidden variables. Yes , good. So then the hidden variables  hair variables we came up with were whether someone was on a tour , running an errand , or whether they were in a hurry , because we were thinking uh , if they were in a hurry there 'd be less likely to  like  or th


Uh. So then our next idea was to add a middle layer , right ? So the thinking behind that was  we have the features that we 've drawn  from the communication of some  Like , the someone s The person at the screen is trying to communicate some abstract idea , like " I 'm  " the  the abstract idea being " I am a tourist I want to go  to this place. " Right ? So we 're gonna set up features along the lines of where they want to go and  what they 've said previously and whatnot. And then we have  the means  that they should use. Right ? but the middle thing , we were thinking along the lines of maybe trying to figure out , like , the concept of whether they 're a tourist  or  whether they 're running an errand or something like that along those lines. Or  Yes , we could things we couldn't extract the  from the data , the hidden variables. Yes , good. So then the hidden variables  hair variables we came up with were whether someone was on a tour , running an errand , or whether they were in a hurry , because we were thinking uh , if they were in a hurry there 'd be less likely to  like  or th


Uh. So then our next idea was to add a middle layer , right ? So the thinking behind that was  we have the features that we 've drawn  from the communication of some  Like , the someone s The person at the screen is trying to communicate some abstract idea , like " I 'm  " the  the abstract idea being " I am a tourist I want to go  to this place. " Right ? So we 're gonna set up features along the lines of where they want to go and  what they 've said previously and whatnot. And then we have  the means  that they should use. Right ? but the middle thing , we were thinking along the lines of maybe trying to figure out , like , the concept of whether they 're a tourist  or  whether they 're running an errand or something like that along those lines. Or  Yes , we could things we couldn't extract the  from the data , the hidden variables. Yes , good. So then the hidden variables  hair variables we came up with were whether someone was on a tour , running an errand , or whether they were in a hurry , because we were thinking uh , if they were in a hurry there 'd be less likely to  like  or th

right ? Because  if you want to view things you wouldn't be in a hurry.


right ? Because  if you want to view things you wouldn't be in a hurry.

Or they might be more likely to be using the place that they want to go to as a  like a  navigational point to go to another place.


right ? Because  if you want to view things you wouldn't be in a hurry.

Or they might be more likely to be using the place that they want to go to as a  like a  navigational point to go to another place.

Whether the destination was their final destination , whether the destination was closed. Those are all  And then " Let 's look at the belief - net "  OK. So that means that I should switch to the  other program. Um right now it 's still kind of  in a toy  version of it , because we didn't know the probabilities of   or  Well I 'll talk about it when I get the picture up.


Or they might be more likely to be using the place that they want to go to as a  like a  navigational point to go to another place.

Whether the destination was their final destination , whether the destination was closed. Those are all  And then " Let 's look at the belief - net "  OK. So that means that I should switch to the  other program. Um right now it 's still kind of  in a toy  version of it , because we didn't know the probabilities of   or  Well I 'll talk about it when I get the picture up.


Whether the destination was their final destination , whether the destination was closed. Those are all  And then " Let 's look at the belief - net "  OK. So that means that I should switch to the  other program. Um right now it 's still kind of  in a toy  version of it , because we didn't know the probabilities of   or  Well I 'll talk about it when I get the picture up.

OK. So this right  what we  Let 's see. What happens if I maximize this ? There we go. But uh  So. The mode  basically has three different  outputs. The probability  whether the probability of a Vista , Tango , or Enter. Um  The " context " , we simplified. Basically it 's just the businessman , the tourist , unknown. " Verb used " is actually personally amusing mainly because it 's  it 's just whether the verb is a Tango verb , an Enter verb , or a  Vista verb.


OK. So this right  what we  Let 's see. What happens if I maximize this ? There we go. But uh  So. The mode  basically has three different  outputs. The probability  whether the probability of a Vista , Tango , or Enter. Um  The " context " , we simplified. Basically it 's just the businessman , the tourist , unknown. " Verb used " is actually personally amusing mainly because it 's  it 's just whether the verb is a Tango verb , an Enter verb , or a  Vista verb.


Not at all. That 's  that  that needs a lot of work.


Not at all. That 's  that  that needs a lot of work.

But uh   that would 've made the probably significantly be more complicated to enter ,


But uh   that would 've made the probably significantly be more complicated to enter ,

so we decided that for the purposes of this  it 'd be simpler to just have three verbs.


so we decided that for the purposes of this  it 'd be simpler to just have three verbs.


Right. Um  Why don't you mention things about this , Bhaskara , that I am  not  that are not coming to my mind right now.


Right. Um  Why don't you mention things about this , Bhaskara , that I am  not  that are not coming to my mind right now.

OK , so  Yeah , so note the four nodes down there , the  sort of , the things that are not directly extracted. Actually , the five things. The " closed " is also not directly extracted I guess , from the uh


OK , so  Yeah , so note the four nodes down there , the  sort of , the things that are not directly extracted. Actually , the five things. The " closed " is also not directly extracted I guess , from the uh


because it 's  because have the  the time of day


because it 's  because have the  the time of day

and the close it just had the  er and what time it closed.


because it 's  because have the  the time of day

and the close it just had the  er and what time it closed.

Right , so f Right , but the other ones , the final destination , the whether they 're doing business , whether they 're in a hurry , and whether they 're tourists , that kind of thing is all uh  sort of  you know probabilistically depends on the other things.


and the close it just had the  er and what time it closed.

Right , so f Right , but the other ones , the final destination , the whether they 're doing business , whether they 're in a hurry , and whether they 're tourists , that kind of thing is all uh  sort of  you know probabilistically depends on the other things.


Right , so f Right , but the other ones , the final destination , the whether they 're doing business , whether they 're in a hurry , and whether they 're tourists , that kind of thing is all uh  sort of  you know probabilistically depends on the other things.


And the mode , you know , depends on all those things only.


And the mode , you know , depends on all those things only.

Yeah the   the actual parse is somewhere up around in here.


And the mode , you know , depends on all those things only.

Yeah the   the actual parse is somewhere up around in here.

Yeah. So we haven't uh , managed  Like we don't have nodes for " discourse " and " parse " , although like in some sense they are parts of this belief - net.


Yeah the   the actual parse is somewhere up around in here.

Yeah. So we haven't uh , managed  Like we don't have nodes for " discourse " and " parse " , although like in some sense they are parts of this belief - net.

But uh   The idea is that we just extract those features from them , so we don't actually have a node for the entire parse ,


Yeah. So we haven't uh , managed  Like we don't have nodes for " discourse " and " parse " , although like in some sense they are parts of this belief - net.

But uh   The idea is that we just extract those features from them , so we don't actually have a node for the entire parse ,


But uh   The idea is that we just extract those features from them , so we don't actually have a node for the entire parse ,


But uh   The idea is that we just extract those features from them , so we don't actually have a node for the entire parse ,

because we 'd never do inference on it anyway , so.


because we 'd never do inference on it anyway , so.

So some of the  the top row of things  What 's  what 's " Disc admission fee " ?


because we 'd never do inference on it anyway , so.

So some of the  the top row of things  What 's  what 's " Disc admission fee " ?

whether they discuss the admission fees. So we looked at the data and in a lot of data people were saying things like  " Can I get to this place ? "


So some of the  the top row of things  What 's  what 's " Disc admission fee " ?

whether they discuss the admission fees. So we looked at the data and in a lot of data people were saying things like  " Can I get to this place ? "

" What is the admission fee ? ". So that 's like a huge uh clue that they 're trying to Enter the place rather than uh to Tango or Vista ,


whether they discuss the admission fees. So we looked at the data and in a lot of data people were saying things like  " Can I get to this place ? "

" What is the admission fee ? ". So that 's like a huge uh clue that they 're trying to Enter the place rather than uh to Tango or Vista ,


" What is the admission fee ? ". So that 's like a huge uh clue that they 're trying to Enter the place rather than uh to Tango or Vista ,


There were  there 'd be other things besides just the admission fee , but  you know ,  we didn't have


That was the  initial one that we found.


That was the  initial one that we found.

OK. So there are certain cues that are very strong  either lexical or topic - based um , concept cues


That was the  initial one that we found.

OK. So there are certain cues that are very strong  either lexical or topic - based um , concept cues

for one of those. And then in that second row  or whatever that row of Time of Day through that  So all of those  Some of them come from the utterance and some of them are sort of  either world knowledge or situational  things.


OK. So there are certain cues that are very strong  either lexical or topic - based um , concept cues

for one of those. And then in that second row  or whatever that row of Time of Day through that  So all of those  Some of them come from the utterance and some of them are sort of  either world knowledge or situational  things.


for one of those. And then in that second row  or whatever that row of Time of Day through that  So all of those  Some of them come from the utterance and some of them are sort of  either world knowledge or situational  things.

Right ? So that you have no distinction between those and OK.


for one of those. And then in that second row  or whatever that row of Time of Day through that  So all of those  Some of them come from the utterance and some of them are sort of  either world knowledge or situational  things.

Right ? So that you have no distinction between those and OK.

One , uh  Uh.  Um , anything else you want to say Bhaskara ?


Right ? So that you have no distinction between those and OK.

One , uh  Uh.  Um , anything else you want to say Bhaskara ?


One , uh  Uh.  Um , anything else you want to say Bhaskara ?


Yeah. They 're  they 're are a couple of more things.


Yeah. They 're  they 're are a couple of more things.

I mean Uh. I would actually suggest we go through this one more time so we  we all uh , agree on what  what the meaning of these things is at the moment and maybe  what changes we


Yeah. They 're  they 're are a couple of more things.

I mean Uh. I would actually suggest we go through this one more time so we  we all uh , agree on what  what the meaning of these things is at the moment and maybe  what changes we

Yeah , th OK. so one thing I  I 'm you know unsure about , is how we have the discus uh  the " admission fee " thing set up. So one  thing that we were thinking was  by doing the layers like this , Uh  we kept um  things from directly affecting the mode  beyond the concept , but you could see perhaps discus the " admission fee " going directly to the mode pointing at " Enter " ,


I mean Uh. I would actually suggest we go through this one more time so we  we all uh , agree on what  what the meaning of these things is at the moment and maybe  what changes we

Yeah , th OK. so one thing I  I 'm you know unsure about , is how we have the discus uh  the " admission fee " thing set up. So one  thing that we were thinking was  by doing the layers like this , Uh  we kept um  things from directly affecting the mode  beyond the concept , but you could see perhaps discus the " admission fee " going directly to the mode pointing at " Enter " ,


I mean Uh. I would actually suggest we go through this one more time so we  we all uh , agree on what  what the meaning of these things is at the moment and maybe  what changes we

Yeah , th OK. so one thing I  I 'm you know unsure about , is how we have the discus uh  the " admission fee " thing set up. So one  thing that we were thinking was  by doing the layers like this , Uh  we kept um  things from directly affecting the mode  beyond the concept , but you could see perhaps discus the " admission fee " going directly to the mode pointing at " Enter " ,

right ? Versus pointing to just at " tourist " ,


Yeah , th OK. so one thing I  I 'm you know unsure about , is how we have the discus uh  the " admission fee " thing set up. So one  thing that we were thinking was  by doing the layers like this , Uh  we kept um  things from directly affecting the mode  beyond the concept , but you could see perhaps discus the " admission fee " going directly to the mode pointing at " Enter " ,

right ? Versus pointing to just at " tourist " ,


right ? Versus pointing to just at " tourist " ,


But we just decided to keep all the things we extracted  to point at the middle and then  down.


But we just decided to keep all the things we extracted  to point at the middle and then  down.

Mm - hmm. Why is the landmark  OK. The landmark is facing to the tourists. That 's because we 're talking about landmarks as touristic landmarks not as possible um


Mm - hmm. Why is the landmark  OK. The landmark is facing to the tourists. That 's because we 're talking about landmarks as touristic landmarks not as possible um


Yeah , that would be  whatever building they referred to.


Disc - " admission fee " is a binary thing , " time of day " is like morning , afternoon , night. Is that the deal ? Yeah.


Disc - " admission fee " is a binary thing , " time of day " is like morning , afternoon , night. Is that the deal ? Yeah.

That 's how we have it currently set up ,


Disc - " admission fee " is a binary thing , " time of day " is like morning , afternoon , night. Is that the deal ? Yeah.

That 's how we have it currently set up ,

but it could be ,  you know , based upon hour


That 's how we have it currently set up ,

but it could be ,  you know , based upon hour


but it could be ,  you know , based upon hour


but it could be ,  you know , based upon hour

or  dis we could discrete it  des descret - ize it.


or  dis we could discrete it  des descret - ize it.


Yeah. Normally context will include a huge amount of information , but um , we are just using the particular  part of the context which consists of the switch that they flick to indicate whether they 're a tourist or not , I guess.


so it 's not really all of context. Similarly prosody is not all of prosody but simply  for our purposes whether or not they appear tense or relaxed.


so it 's not really all of context. Similarly prosody is not all of prosody but simply  for our purposes whether or not they appear tense or relaxed.

The  the  So the context is a switch between tourist or non - tourist ?


The  the  So the context is a switch between tourist or non - tourist ?


So final dest So it seems like that would really help you for doing business versus tourist ,


So final dest So it seems like that would really help you for doing business versus tourist ,

but OK. so the the context being um , e I don't know if that question 's sort of in general , " are you  " I mean the  ar ar are do they allow business people to be doing non - business things at the moment ?


but OK. so the the context being um , e I don't know if that question 's sort of in general , " are you  " I mean the  ar ar are do they allow business people to be doing non - business things at the moment ?

OK. So then you just have some probabilities over


but OK. so the the context being um , e I don't know if that question 's sort of in general , " are you  " I mean the  ar ar are do they allow business people to be doing non - business things at the moment ?

OK. So then you just have some probabilities over

Everything is probablistic , and  There 's always


OK. So then you just have some probabilities over

Everything is probablistic , and  There 's always


OK. So then you just have some probabilities over

Everything is probablistic , and  There 's always

Yeah. Um , right. So then landmark is  Oh , sorry. " Verb used " is like , right now we only have three values , but in general they would be a probability distribution over all verbs.


Everything is probablistic , and  There 's always

Yeah. Um , right. So then landmark is  Oh , sorry. " Verb used " is like , right now we only have three values , but in general they would be a probability distribution over all verbs.


Yeah. Um , right. So then landmark is  Oh , sorry. " Verb used " is like , right now we only have three values , but in general they would be a probability distribution over all verbs.

Rather , let me rephrase that. It  it can take values  in the set of all verbs , that they could possibly use.


Rather , let me rephrase that. It  it can take values  in the set of all verbs , that they could possibly use.

Um " nice walls " is binary , " closed " is binary " final destination " , again  Yeah , all those are binary I guess. And " mode " is one of three things.


Rather , let me rephrase that. It  it can take values  in the set of all verbs , that they could possibly use.

Um " nice walls " is binary , " closed " is binary " final destination " , again  Yeah , all those are binary I guess. And " mode " is one of three things.

So , the  the middle layer is also binary ? No.


Um " nice walls " is binary , " closed " is binary " final destination " , again  Yeah , all those are binary I guess. And " mode " is one of three things.

So , the  the middle layer is also binary ? No.

Yeah , anything with a question mark after it in that picture is a binary node.


Um " nice walls " is binary , " closed " is binary " final destination " , again  Yeah , all those are binary I guess. And " mode " is one of three things.

So , the  the middle layer is also binary ? No.

Yeah , anything with a question mark after it in that picture is a binary node.

Uh. It  Yeah. But all those things without question marks are also binary. Right ?


So , the  the middle layer is also binary ? No.

Yeah , anything with a question mark after it in that picture is a binary node.

Uh. It  Yeah. But all those things without question marks are also binary. Right ?


Yeah , anything with a question mark after it in that picture is a binary node.

Uh. It  Yeah. But all those things without question marks are also binary. Right ?


Uh. It  Yeah. But all those things without question marks are also binary. Right ?


Oh. " Nice walls " is uh  something that we extract from our world knowledge.


Oh. " Nice walls " is uh  something that we extract from our world knowledge.

It is binary but it doesn't have question mark because it 's extracted.


It is binary but it doesn't have question mark because it 's extracted.

That 's true. Yeah. OK , I see your point.


That 's true. Yeah. OK , I see your point.


So we can either be in a hurry or not , but we cannot be in a medium hurry at the moment ?


So we can either be in a hurry or not , but we cannot be in a medium hurry at the moment ?

Well , we To do that we would add another uh  value for that.


So we can either be in a hurry or not , but we cannot be in a medium hurry at the moment ?

Well , we To do that we would add another uh  value for that.

And that would require s updating the probability distribution for " mode " as well.


Well , we To do that we would add another uh  value for that.

And that would require s updating the probability distribution for " mode " as well.


And that would require s updating the probability distribution for " mode " as well.

Because it would now have to like uh  take that possibility into account.


Because it would now have to like uh  take that possibility into account.


Because it would now have to like uh  take that possibility into account.

So um , of course this will happen when we think more about the kinds of verbs that are used in each cases


So um , of course this will happen when we think more about the kinds of verbs that are used in each cases


So um , of course this will happen when we think more about the kinds of verbs that are used in each cases

but you can imagine that it 's verb plus various other things that are also not in the bottom layer that would  that would help you  Like it 's a conjunction of , I don't know , you know , the verb used and some other stuff that  that would   determine


but you can imagine that it 's verb plus various other things that are also not in the bottom layer that would  that would help you  Like it 's a conjunction of , I don't know , you know , the verb used and some other stuff that  that would   determine

Right. Other syntactic information you mean ?


Right. Other syntactic information you mean ?


well the  the  sort of the landmark is  is sort of the object right ? the argument in a sense ?


well the  the  sort of the landmark is  is sort of the object right ? the argument in a sense ?

Usually. I  I don't know if that 's always the case I  I guess haven't looked at the data as much as you guys have. So. Um.


well the  the  sort of the landmark is  is sort of the object right ? the argument in a sense ?

Usually. I  I don't know if that 's always the case I  I guess haven't looked at the data as much as you guys have. So. Um.

that 's always warping on something  some entity ,


Usually. I  I don't know if that 's always the case I  I guess haven't looked at the data as much as you guys have. So. Um.

that 's always warping on something  some entity ,

and um  Uh maybe at this stage we will  we do want to  uh sort of get  uh modifiers in there


that 's always warping on something  some entity ,

and um  Uh maybe at this stage we will  we do want to  uh sort of get  uh modifiers in there


and um  Uh maybe at this stage we will  we do want to  uh sort of get  uh modifiers in there

because they may also tell us whether the person is in a hurry or not


because they may also tell us whether the person is in a hurry or not


Right. Excellent. Do we have anything else to say about this ?


Right. Excellent. Do we have anything else to say about this ?

Oh the Yeah , we could. But the demo doesn't work very well.


Right. Excellent. Do we have anything else to say about this ?

Oh the Yeah , we could. But the demo doesn't work very well.

No , then it wouldn't be a demo I was just gonna s


Oh the Yeah , we could. But the demo doesn't work very well.

No , then it wouldn't be a demo I was just gonna s

I mean  We can do a demo in the sense that we can um ,  just ob observe the fact that this will , in fact do inference.


No , then it wouldn't be a demo I was just gonna s

I mean  We can do a demo in the sense that we can um ,  just ob observe the fact that this will , in fact do inference.

So we can , you know , set some of the uh nodes and then try to find the probability of other nodes.


I mean  We can do a demo in the sense that we can um ,  just ob observe the fact that this will , in fact do inference.

So we can , you know , set some of the uh nodes and then try to find the probability of other nodes.


So we can , you know , set some of the uh nodes and then try to find the probability of other nodes.

OK. Dat - dat - dah. What should I observe ?


So we can , you know , set some of the uh nodes and then try to find the probability of other nodes.

OK. Dat - dat - dah. What should I observe ?

Just se set a few of them. You don't have to do the whole thing that we did last time. Just like uh ,  maybe the fact that they use a certain verb


OK. Dat - dat - dah. What should I observe ?

Just se set a few of them. You don't have to do the whole thing that we did last time. Just like uh ,  maybe the fact that they use a certain verb


Just se set a few of them. You don't have to do the whole thing that we did last time. Just like uh ,  maybe the fact that they use a certain verb


just uh  I don't know , say they discussed the admission fee


just uh  I don't know , say they discussed the admission fee

I love nice walls , OK ? I 'm a big fan.


I love nice walls , OK ? I 'm a big fan.


Yeah , no wait. That  that doesn't uh  it 's not really consistent. They don't discuss the admission fee. Make that false.


Yeah , no wait. That  that doesn't uh  it 's not really consistent. They don't discuss the admission fee. Make that false.

Oh , they  OK. Oh whoops. I forgot to uh


Oh , they  OK. Oh whoops. I forgot to uh


One thing that bugs me about JavaBayes is you have to click that and do this.


right ? the mode. OK , and then on here  So let 's see.


right ? the mode. OK , and then on here  So let 's see.

So that  is the probability that they 're Entering , Vista - ing or Tango - ing.