so you're gonna have the three different sets of of functionalities , um I mean do you wanna group them into s head of the snowman , body of the snowman , inside of the snowman , is that what you're thinking ?

Um  well I think the advanced ones the the ones you don't usually use could be hid inside.

B um I think the  we had were fairly basic ones , they'd have to go on the the front somewhere.


Um  well I think the advanced ones the the ones you don't usually use could be hid inside.

B um I think the  we had were fairly basic ones , they'd have to go on the the front somewhere.

Okay right um what else do you need to talk about ?


B um I think the  we had were fairly basic ones , they'd have to go on the the front somewhere.

Okay right um what else do you need to talk about ?


B um I think the  we had were fairly basic ones , they'd have to go on the the front somewhere.

Okay right um what else do you need to talk about ?

Where would you physically position the buttons ? Um I think that that has some impact on on on many things.


Okay right um what else do you need to talk about ?

Where would you physically position the buttons ? Um I think that that has some impact on on on many things.


Where would you physically position the buttons ? Um I think that that has some impact on on on many things.


So I'm just gonna um pop this in here 'cause I have a slide about decision making which I'd forgotten about.


So I'm just gonna um pop this in here 'cause I have a slide about decision making which I'd forgotten about.

Oh sh God we've got five minutes um okay uh back we go. Um energy what  do you think that's suggesting we're  how we're powering the thing ? I really like the idea of this kinetic thing where you'd have the back-up of the battery , but have have kinetic power ,


Oh sh God we've got five minutes um okay uh back we go. Um energy what  do you think that's suggesting we're  how we're powering the thing ? I really like the idea of this kinetic thing where you'd have the back-up of the battery , but have have kinetic power ,

I mean what does anybody think about that ?


Oh sh God we've got five minutes um okay uh back we go. Um energy what  do you think that's suggesting we're  how we're powering the thing ? I really like the idea of this kinetic thing where you'd have the back-up of the battery , but have have kinetic power ,

I mean what does anybody think about that ?

Um I've had kinetic things before , and the the the one issue we need to keep in mind with them is that you're committing the user to moving it ,


I mean what does anybody think about that ?

Um I've had kinetic things before , and the the the one issue we need to keep in mind with them is that you're committing the user to moving it ,

No , like I said we have a h hybrid kind of thing , so it's not gonna charge the battery , it's just


I mean what does anybody think about that ?

Um I've had kinetic things before , and the the the one issue we need to keep in mind with them is that you're committing the user to moving it ,

No , like I said we have a h hybrid kind of thing , so it's not gonna charge the battery , it's just

and watches yeah  Sure , okay , right , okay.


Um I've had kinetic things before , and the the the one issue we need to keep in mind with them is that you're committing the user to moving it ,

No , like I said we have a h hybrid kind of thing , so it's not gonna charge the battery , it's just

and watches yeah  Sure , okay , right , okay.


No , like I said we have a h hybrid kind of thing , so it's not gonna charge the battery , it's just

and watches yeah  Sure , okay , right , okay.


and watches yeah  Sure , okay , right , okay.


I mean just  it's just worth pointing out because like I've I've known I've known people to have kinetic watches that they wear all the time ,


I mean just  it's just worth pointing out because like I've I've known I've known people to have kinetic watches that they wear all the time ,

and it's just like magic because it's always powered and there's no battery. I've also known people to have  things like like a jewellery watch they wear from time to time , and they eventually just say it's just too much of a nuisance because I don't wear it all the time.


and it's just like magic because it's always powered and there's no battery. I've also known people to have  things like like a jewellery watch they wear from time to time , and they eventually just say it's just too much of a nuisance because I don't wear it all the time.


and it's just like magic because it's always powered and there's no battery. I've also known people to have  things like like a jewellery watch they wear from time to time , and they eventually just say it's just too much of a nuisance because I don't wear it all the time.

Like remote control is similar , you're away on vacation , I dunno whatever , you something , and it just starts to get worn down.


Like remote control is similar , you're away on vacation , I dunno whatever , you something , and it just starts to get worn down.

Yeah. Well I suppose that if you're if you're away and you're not using it , then you're not using any power either.


Like remote control is similar , you're away on vacation , I dunno whatever , you something , and it just starts to get worn down.

Yeah. Well I suppose that if you're if you're away and you're not using it , then you're not using any power either.

So you'd have the battery as the kind of  to keep it ticking over idea


Yeah. Well I suppose that if you're if you're away and you're not using it , then you're not using any power either.

So you'd have the battery as the kind of  to keep it ticking over idea


So you'd have the battery as the kind of  to keep it ticking over idea

I'm really sorry we're gonna have to wrap up quite quickly , we don't have as much time as I thought. Um so I think that's what energy is referring to here.


I'm really sorry we're gonna have to wrap up quite quickly , we don't have as much time as I thought. Um so I think that's what energy is referring to here.

Chip on print , is that  that's an industrial design thing , is it David ?


Chip on print , is that  that's an industrial design thing , is it David ?

Okay um as for the case , kind of discussed that


Chip on print , is that  that's an industrial design thing , is it David ?

Okay um as for the case , kind of discussed that

And this size here , I'd suggest this be small , like quite small.


Okay um as for the case , kind of discussed that

And this size here , I'd suggest this be small , like quite small.

Yeah I know we're gonna have like rubber buttons that feel kind of  Okay.


And this size here , I'd suggest this be small , like quite small.

Yeah I know we're gonna have like rubber buttons that feel kind of  Okay.

Um just a a lot of the um   I mean one of the things running through my mind right now , I realise we're being efficient to wrap up the meeting and have lots of decisions made ,


Yeah I know we're gonna have like rubber buttons that feel kind of  Okay.

Um just a a lot of the um   I mean one of the things running through my mind right now , I realise we're being efficient to wrap up the meeting and have lots of decisions made ,


Um just a a lot of the um   I mean one of the things running through my mind right now , I realise we're being efficient to wrap up the meeting and have lots of decisions made ,

um but we are leaning quite a bit to the side of being low-tech , rubber buttons plastic frame , it's almost like we're reproducing the same old remote control that's out there.


um but we are leaning quite a bit to the side of being low-tech , rubber buttons plastic frame , it's almost like we're reproducing the same old remote control that's out there.

Should we think about how we are actually getting this high-tech user friendly uh um theme  like what is it that we're u we're using to to achieve those goals ?


um but we are leaning quite a bit to the side of being low-tech , rubber buttons plastic frame , it's almost like we're reproducing the same old remote control that's out there.

Should we think about how we are actually getting this high-tech user friendly uh um theme  like what is it that we're u we're using to to achieve those goals ?

Could have things like backlighting the buttons and stuff like that.


Should we think about how we are actually getting this high-tech user friendly uh um theme  like what is it that we're u we're using to to achieve those goals ?

Could have things like backlighting the buttons and stuff like that.

Like  Okay so so backlighting , that would be good.


Should we think about how we are actually getting this high-tech user friendly uh um theme  like what is it that we're u we're using to to achieve those goals ?

Could have things like backlighting the buttons and stuff like that.

Like  Okay so so backlighting , that would be good.

Or even a clear case. Um you know a a glowing a a glowing yellow type case where the yellow is showable ,


Could have things like backlighting the buttons and stuff like that.

Like  Okay so so backlighting , that would be good.

Or even a clear case. Um you know a a glowing a a glowing yellow type case where the yellow is showable ,


Like  Okay so so backlighting , that would be good.

Or even a clear case. Um you know a a glowing a a glowing yellow type case where the yellow is showable ,


Or even a clear case. Um you know a a glowing a a glowing yellow type case where the yellow is showable ,


but in the dark it sort of , it's alive .


but in the dark it sort of , it's alive .

S so like cur slightly transparent case , so it's yellow , like tinted yellow , but you can maybe see through it.


S so like cur slightly transparent case , so it's yellow , like tinted yellow , but you can maybe see through it.


Yeah. Or or there might be a light running through it like a mouse.


Yeah. Or or there might be a light running through it like a mouse.

You know you have cordless mice and they don't eat that much power right.


You know you have cordless mice and they don't eat that much power right.

So the power  the battery in that sense ,


So the power  the battery in that sense ,

maybe you have one or two stratig strategically placed lights


maybe you have one or two stratig strategically placed lights


maybe you have one or two stratig strategically placed lights

Sure. Yeah they they emanate a light through it.


Sure. Yeah they they emanate a light through it.


Sure. Yeah they they emanate a light through it.

but because the case is transparent so it gives it a little bit of a glow , doesn't make it freaky.


but because the case is transparent so it gives it a little bit of a glow , doesn't make it freaky.


mm-hmm. Um and then the other thing that we we're s we've committed ourselves to achieving is simplicity , and so I'm thinking maybe should we try and think about having something like um some kind of an innovative concept about how the um the volume and the channels are controlled , 'cause that's the main thing people will f wanna do.


mm-hmm. Um and then the other thing that we we're s we've committed ourselves to achieving is simplicity , and so I'm thinking maybe should we try and think about having something like um some kind of an innovative concept about how the um the volume and the channels are controlled , 'cause that's the main thing people will f wanna do.

Could we use like a jog dial , like a nice just sort of round , somewhere on it where you just roll it ?


mm-hmm. Um and then the other thing that we we're s we've committed ourselves to achieving is simplicity , and so I'm thinking maybe should we try and think about having something like um some kind of an innovative concept about how the um the volume and the channels are controlled , 'cause that's the main thing people will f wanna do.

Could we use like a jog dial , like a nice just sort of round , somewhere on it where you just roll it ?

The question is when you're rolling it , how do you wanna roll it ?


Could we use like a jog dial , like a nice just sort of round , somewhere on it where you just roll it ?

The question is when you're rolling it , how do you wanna roll it ?


Could we use like a jog dial , like a nice just sort of round , somewhere on it where you just roll it ?

The question is when you're rolling it , how do you wanna roll it ?

Do you want 'em to roll it like that ? Do you want 'em to roll it like that ? 'Cause in a mouse your hand's in a position to roll it ,


The question is when you're rolling it , how do you wanna roll it ?

Do you want 'em to roll it like that ? Do you want 'em to roll it like that ? 'Cause in a mouse your hand's in a position to roll it ,


Do you want 'em to roll it like that ? Do you want 'em to roll it like that ? 'Cause in a mouse your hand's in a position to roll it ,


whereas the other thing about having it jog dial this way , it tends to get moved accidentally.


whereas the other thing about having it jog dial this way , it tends to get moved accidentally.

Yeah if you are holding it in your hand you could you could do that , couldn't you ?


whereas the other thing about having it jog dial this way , it tends to get moved accidentally.

Yeah if you are holding it in your hand you could you could do that , couldn't you ?

Well why don't we do it like a mouse then ?


Yeah if you are holding it in your hand you could you could do that , couldn't you ?

Well why don't we do it like a mouse then ?

If you're holding it in your hand you could


Well why don't we do it like a mouse then ?

If you're holding it in your hand you could


If you're holding it in your hand you could


Can you imagine you have to scroll a lot. Um it might work for volume , and maybe some of the brightness controls and stuff like that ,


If you have a Telewest box you've got like , you don't have to buy all the channels ,


If you have a Telewest box you've got like , you don't have to buy all the channels ,

you've about fifty channels , can you imagine trying to .


you've about fifty channels , can you imagine trying to .


Um and I don't think having that you know too quick too slow kin it's confusing to the


Um and I don't think having that you know too quick too slow kin it's confusing to the

Well , but then for um for skipping a large amount of channels you do have to uh to skip the channel button , the number part.


Well , but then for um for skipping a large amount of channels you do have to uh to skip the channel button , the number part.


Well , but then for um for skipping a large amount of channels you do have to uh to skip the channel button , the number part.

I dunno. But users tend to tend to want to use that


I dunno. But users tend to tend to want to use that


I dunno. But users tend to tend to want to use that

and once they lose out on the user experience they're like  Because that's becomes the most accessible thing in front of


and once they lose out on the user experience they're like  Because that's becomes the most accessible thing in front of


Because when you think about it , the alternative is to go push the button.


we do need to make a decision on whether we want to incorporate a jog dial in nice and quickly. Um I'm all for them actually , I think they're quite  you know th very quick to m to use.


we do need to make a decision on whether we want to incorporate a jog dial in nice and quickly. Um I'm all for them actually , I think they're quite  you know th very quick to m to use.

So does anybody oppose the idea of of incorporating one into the design at all ? No. And the other thing was um can we think of any way of getting the slogan into this thing ?


we do need to make a decision on whether we want to incorporate a jog dial in nice and quickly. Um I'm all for them actually , I think they're quite  you know th very quick to m to use.

So does anybody oppose the idea of of incorporating one into the design at all ? No. And the other thing was um can we think of any way of getting the slogan into this thing ?

Yeah like I mean if we if if we keep coming back to this board here ,


So does anybody oppose the idea of of incorporating one into the design at all ? No. And the other thing was um can we think of any way of getting the slogan into this thing ?

Yeah like I mean if we if if we keep coming back to this board here ,


So does anybody oppose the idea of of incorporating one into the design at all ? No. And the other thing was um can we think of any way of getting the slogan into this thing ?

Yeah like I mean if we if if we keep coming back to this board here ,

I wouldn't be surprised if we could take this idea , imagine that , I dunno , that it's within the shape of the hand , it's quite small


Yeah like I mean if we if if we keep coming back to this board here ,

I wouldn't be surprised if we could take this idea , imagine that , I dunno , that it's within the shape of the hand , it's quite small

Uh-huh ooh okay , we really gotta wrap up


I wouldn't be surprised if we could take this idea , imagine that , I dunno , that it's within the shape of the hand , it's quite small

Uh-huh ooh okay , we really gotta wrap up


Uh-huh ooh okay , we really gotta wrap up

Yeah. It's small , and that we've got like the the l slogan somewhere like on the casing at the side ,


Yeah. It's small , and that we've got like the the l slogan somewhere like on the casing at the side ,


well I mean isn't that what we just h said said we s just have to decide now ?


well I mean isn't that what we just h said said we s just have to decide now ?

Yeah let's let's try and get the slogan on there um , and


Yeah let's let's try and get the slogan on there um , and

And then like a jo And then like a jog dial somewhere that fits in with the shape of it like I dunno like here , in with the


And then like a jo And then like a jog dial somewhere that fits in with the shape of it like I dunno like here , in with the

That that might have one problem in terms of um in terms of whether you're left handed or you're right handed you might be locking yourself in.


And then like a jo And then like a jog dial somewhere that fits in with the shape of it like I dunno like here , in with the

That that might have one problem in terms of um in terms of whether you're left handed or you're right handed you might be locking yourself in.

It would get bumped , it's  doesn't really fit with your hand.


That that might have one problem in terms of um in terms of whether you're left handed or you're right handed you might be locking yourself in.

It would get bumped , it's  doesn't really fit with your hand.


It would get bumped , it's  doesn't really fit with your hand.


Or maybe just fit it in like down the middle here.


Or maybe just fit it in like down the middle here.

Could I just could I just jump in and suggest something quickly ?


Could I just could I just jump in and suggest something quickly ?

I'm really gonna have to hurry you on here 'cause we're we're actually over time.


I'm really gonna have to hurry you on here 'cause we're we're actually over time.


I'm really gonna have to hurry you on here 'cause we're we're actually over time.

Um is there anything anybody's unsure about ?


Um is there anything anybody's unsure about ?

Just for  in closing just  the next meeting's gonna be in thirty minutes , and so you can see in the screen here what each of you are gonna hopefully be doing , uh I know that the designers are gonna be working with Play-doh on that.


Just for  in closing just  the next meeting's gonna be in thirty minutes , and so you can see in the screen here what each of you are gonna hopefully be doing , uh I know that the designers are gonna be working with Play-doh on that.


Um and I'll get the the minutes up as soon as possible. Anything at all you think we haven't discussed that we need to ? Is everybody kind of happy about what they're gonna be doing ?


Um and I'll get the the minutes up as soon as possible. Anything at all you think we haven't discussed that we need to ? Is everybody kind of happy about what they're gonna be doing ?

Um I think one thing would be the jog dial 'cause that's gonna have quite a big impact on the thing um


Um and I'll get the the minutes up as soon as possible. Anything at all you think we haven't discussed that we need to ? Is everybody kind of happy about what they're gonna be doing ?

Um I think one thing would be the jog dial 'cause that's gonna have quite a big impact on the thing um

Yeah I think the jog dial , you know it just after you drew that , what if it was flat and you just spun it ,


Um I think one thing would be the jog dial 'cause that's gonna have quite a big impact on the thing um

Yeah I think the jog dial , you know it just after you drew that , what if it was flat and you just spun it ,


Yeah I think the jog dial , you know it just after you drew that , what if it was flat and you just spun it ,

a slide , because then you you don't have to put the hand.


a slide , because then you you don't have to put the hand.


a slide , because then you you don't have to put the hand.

I think incorporating a logo is quite straight forward.


I think incorporating a logo is quite straight forward.


That's kind of a design thing that you guys can can discuss , yeah.


That's kind of a design thing that you guys can can discuss , yeah.

Yeah but it's also a a marketing and a function


Yeah but it's also a a marketing and a function

yeah and materials we sorta said we'd do plastic and rubber , didn't we ,


yeah and materials we sorta said we'd do plastic and rubber , didn't we ,


yeah and materials we sorta said we'd do plastic and rubber , didn't we ,

and I think maybe we should try and stay away from just the big protruding rubber buttons , 'cause that'd just be so standard.


and I think maybe we should try and stay away from just the big protruding rubber buttons , 'cause that'd just be so standard.


or maybe have rubber incorporated into the case as well ,


or maybe have rubber incorporated into the case as well ,

so that it has  and also t plastic I've seen can get really textured , so you can get plastics that actually feel soft in your hand.


so that it has  and also t plastic I've seen can get really textured , so you can get plastics that actually feel soft in your hand.


They feel kind of like um , you get pens now and then that you'd think that they were rubber but they're not ,


They feel kind of like um , you get pens now and then that you'd think that they were rubber but they're not ,

they're actually just plastic that's textured ,


they're actually just plastic that's textured ,


they're actually just plastic that's textured ,

Okay I'm gonna have to I'm gonna have to call this to a close 'cause we're way over time. So um that's really good , like we've s had much to talk about that um pretty much run out of time to do so.


Okay I'm gonna have to I'm gonna have to call this to a close 'cause we're way over time. So um that's really good , like we've s had much to talk about that um pretty much run out of time to do so.


You got to choose first.  No , we're kidding.


You got to choose first.  No , we're kidding.

Okay , can I just swipe your power cable , I don't think it matters.  Okay lemme  okay , I'm gonna pull everybody out first and then put in whoever needs to be left. It's you. Argh. This is a real hassle and a  oops. I'm gonna take the microphones , 'cause it's  too lazy t take them off again. Cool.


Good. Yeah. OK so , let 's get started. Nancy said she 's coming and that means she will be. Um. My suggestion is that Robert and Johno sort of give us a report on last week 's adventures uh to start. So everybody knows there were these guys f uh from Heidelber - uh , uh , actually from uh DFKI uh , part of the German SmartKom project , who were here for the week and , I think got a lot done.


Good. Yeah. OK so , let 's get started. Nancy said she 's coming and that means she will be. Um. My suggestion is that Robert and Johno sort of give us a report on last week 's adventures uh to start. So everybody knows there were these guys f uh from Heidelber - uh , uh , actually from uh DFKI uh , part of the German SmartKom project , who were here for the week and , I think got a lot done.

Yeah , I think so too. Um. The  we got to the point where we can now speak into the SmartKom system , and it 'll go all the way through and then say something like " Roman numeral one , am Smarticus. " It actually says , " Roemisch einz , am Smarticus , "


Good. Yeah. OK so , let 's get started. Nancy said she 's coming and that means she will be. Um. My suggestion is that Robert and Johno sort of give us a report on last week 's adventures uh to start. So everybody knows there were these guys f uh from Heidelber - uh , uh , actually from uh DFKI uh , part of the German SmartKom project , who were here for the week and , I think got a lot done.

Yeah , I think so too. Um. The  we got to the point where we can now speak into the SmartKom system , and it 'll go all the way through and then say something like " Roman numeral one , am Smarticus. " It actually says , " Roemisch einz , am Smarticus , "

which means it 's just using a German sythesis module for English sentences.


Yeah , I think so too. Um. The  we got to the point where we can now speak into the SmartKom system , and it 'll go all the way through and then say something like " Roman numeral one , am Smarticus. " It actually says , " Roemisch einz , am Smarticus , "

which means it 's just using a German sythesis module for English sentences.


which means it 's just using a German sythesis module for English sentences.


" I am Sm - I am Smarticus " is what it 's saying.


The uh sythesis is just a question of um , hopefully it 's just a question of exchanging a couple of files , once we have them. And , um , it 's not going to be a problem because we decided to stick to the so - called concept to speech approach. So I 'm  I 'm  I 'm going backwards now , so " synthesis " is where you sort of make this  uh , make these sounds , and " concept to speech " is feeding into this synthesis module giving it what needs to be said , and the whole syntactic structure so it can pronounce things better , presumably. Then , just with text to speech.


The uh sythesis is just a question of um , hopefully it 's just a question of exchanging a couple of files , once we have them. And , um , it 's not going to be a problem because we decided to stick to the so - called concept to speech approach. So I 'm  I 'm  I 'm going backwards now , so " synthesis " is where you sort of make this  uh , make these sounds , and " concept to speech " is feeding into this synthesis module giving it what needs to be said , and the whole syntactic structure so it can pronounce things better , presumably. Then , just with text to speech.

And , uh , Johno learned how to write XML tags. Uh , and did write the tree adjoining grammar for some  some sentences. No , right ?


And , uh , Johno learned how to write XML tags. Uh , and did write the tree adjoining grammar for some  some sentences. No , right ?


And , uh , Johno learned how to write XML tags. Uh , and did write the tree adjoining grammar for some  some sentences. No , right ?

So. Bu - Uh , i The way the uh , the dialogue manager works is it dumps out what it wants to know , or what it wants to tell the person , to a  er in XML and there 's a conversion system for different uh , to go from XML to something else. And th so , the knowledge base for the system , that generates the syntasti syntactic structures for the ge generation is uh , in a LISP - like  the knowledge base is in a LISP - like form. And then the thing that actually builds these syntactic structures is something based on Prolog. So , you have a  basically , a goal and it , you know , says " OK , well I 'm gonna try to do the Greet - the - person goal ,


So. Bu - Uh , i The way the uh , the dialogue manager works is it dumps out what it wants to know , or what it wants to tell the person , to a  er in XML and there 's a conversion system for different uh , to go from XML to something else. And th so , the knowledge base for the system , that generates the syntasti syntactic structures for the ge generation is uh , in a LISP - like  the knowledge base is in a LISP - like form. And then the thing that actually builds these syntactic structures is something based on Prolog. So , you have a  basically , a goal and it , you know , says " OK , well I 'm gonna try to do the Greet - the - person goal ,


So. Bu - Uh , i The way the uh , the dialogue manager works is it dumps out what it wants to know , or what it wants to tell the person , to a  er in XML and there 's a conversion system for different uh , to go from XML to something else. And th so , the knowledge base for the system , that generates the syntasti syntactic structures for the ge generation is uh , in a LISP - like  the knowledge base is in a LISP - like form. And then the thing that actually builds these syntactic structures is something based on Prolog. So , you have a  basically , a goal and it , you know , says " OK , well I 'm gonna try to do the Greet - the - person goal ,

so it just starts  uh , it binds some variables and it just decides to , you know , do some subscold. Basically , it just means " build the tree. "


so it just starts  uh , it binds some variables and it just decides to , you know , do some subscold. Basically , it just means " build the tree. "

And then it passes the tree onto , uh , the ge the generation module.


so it just starts  uh , it binds some variables and it just decides to , you know , do some subscold. Basically , it just means " build the tree. "

And then it passes the tree onto , uh , the ge the generation module.

But I think that the point is that out of the twelve possible utterances that the German system can do , we 've already written the  the syntax trees for three or four.


And then it passes the tree onto , uh , the ge the generation module.

But I think that the point is that out of the twelve possible utterances that the German system can do , we 've already written the  the syntax trees for three or four.

We yeah. So , the syntax trees are very simple. It 's like most of the sentences in one tree ,


But I think that the point is that out of the twelve possible utterances that the German system can do , we 've already written the  the syntax trees for three or four.

We yeah. So , the syntax trees are very simple. It 's like most of the sentences in one tree ,

and instead of , you know , breaking down to , like , small units and building back up , they basically took the sentences , and basically cut them in half , or you know , into thirds or something like that , and made trees out of those. And so uh , uh Tilman wrote a little tool that you could take LISP notation and generate an XML , uh , tree. Uh , S what do ca structure from the  from the LISP. And so basically you just say , you know , " noun goes to " , you know , Er , nah , I don't re I 've never been good at those. So there 's like the VP goes to N and those things in LISP , and it will generate for you.


We yeah. So , the syntax trees are very simple. It 's like most of the sentences in one tree ,

and instead of , you know , breaking down to , like , small units and building back up , they basically took the sentences , and basically cut them in half , or you know , into thirds or something like that , and made trees out of those. And so uh , uh Tilman wrote a little tool that you could take LISP notation and generate an XML , uh , tree. Uh , S what do ca structure from the  from the LISP. And so basically you just say , you know , " noun goes to " , you know , Er , nah , I don't re I 've never been good at those. So there 's like the VP goes to N and those things in LISP , and it will generate for you.


and instead of , you know , breaking down to , like , small units and building back up , they basically took the sentences , and basically cut them in half , or you know , into thirds or something like that , and made trees out of those. And so uh , uh Tilman wrote a little tool that you could take LISP notation and generate an XML , uh , tree. Uh , S what do ca structure from the  from the LISP. And so basically you just say , you know , " noun goes to " , you know , Er , nah , I don't re I 've never been good at those. So there 's like the VP goes to N and those things in LISP , and it will generate for you.

And because we 're sticking to that structure , the synthesis module doesn't need to be changed. So all that f fancy stuff , and the Texas speech version of it , which is actually the simpler version , is gonna be done in October which is much too late for us. So. This way we  we worked around that. The , uh  the system , um  I can show you the system. I actually want , at least , maybe , you should be able to start it on your own. If you wanna play around with it , in th in the future. Right now it 's brittle and you need to ch start it up and then make ts twenty changes on  on  on  on seventeen modules before they actually can stomach it , anything. And send in a  a  a couple of side queries on some dummy center set - up program so that it actually works because it 's designed for this seevit thing , where you have the gestural recognition running with this s Siemens virtual touch screen , which we don't have here.


And because we 're sticking to that structure , the synthesis module doesn't need to be changed. So all that f fancy stuff , and the Texas speech version of it , which is actually the simpler version , is gonna be done in October which is much too late for us. So. This way we  we worked around that. The , uh  the system , um  I can show you the system. I actually want , at least , maybe , you should be able to start it on your own. If you wanna play around with it , in th in the future. Right now it 's brittle and you need to ch start it up and then make ts twenty changes on  on  on  on seventeen modules before they actually can stomach it , anything. And send in a  a  a couple of side queries on some dummy center set - up program so that it actually works because it 's designed for this seevit thing , where you have the gestural recognition running with this s Siemens virtual touch screen , which we don't have here.

And so we 're doing it via mouse , but the whole system was designed to work with this thing and it was  It was a lot of engineering stuff. No science in there whatsoever , but it 's working now , and um , that 's the good news. So everything else actually did prove to be language independent except for the parsing and the generation.


And because we 're sticking to that structure , the synthesis module doesn't need to be changed. So all that f fancy stuff , and the Texas speech version of it , which is actually the simpler version , is gonna be done in October which is much too late for us. So. This way we  we worked around that. The , uh  the system , um  I can show you the system. I actually want , at least , maybe , you should be able to start it on your own. If you wanna play around with it , in th in the future. Right now it 's brittle and you need to ch start it up and then make ts twenty changes on  on  on  on seventeen modules before they actually can stomach it , anything. And send in a  a  a couple of side queries on some dummy center set - up program so that it actually works because it 's designed for this seevit thing , where you have the gestural recognition running with this s Siemens virtual touch screen , which we don't have here.

And so we 're doing it via mouse , but the whole system was designed to work with this thing and it was  It was a lot of engineering stuff. No science in there whatsoever , but it 's working now , and um , that 's the good news. So everything else actually did prove to be language independent except for the parsing and the generation.

Why  I had  I did need to chan generate different trees than the German ones , mainly because you know like uh , the gerund in  in German is automatically taken care of with just a regular verb ,


And so we 're doing it via mouse , but the whole system was designed to work with this thing and it was  It was a lot of engineering stuff. No science in there whatsoever , but it 's working now , and um , that 's the good news. So everything else actually did prove to be language independent except for the parsing and the generation.

Why  I had  I did need to chan generate different trees than the German ones , mainly because you know like uh , the gerund in  in German is automatically taken care of with just a regular verb ,


Why  I had  I did need to chan generate different trees than the German ones , mainly because you know like uh , the gerund in  in German is automatically taken care of with just a regular verb ,


or I 'd have to add a little stem for the " am " , when I build the  built the tree.


or I 'd have to add a little stem for the " am " , when I build the  built the tree.

OK. Yeah , I noticed that um , that some of the examples they had , had you know , non - English word orders and so on , you know. And then all that good stuff. So.


OK. Yeah , I noticed that um , that some of the examples they had , had you know , non - English word orders and so on , you know. And then all that good stuff. So.


So it might be worth , Keith , you looking at this ,


So it might be worth , Keith , you looking at this ,

I  I still don't  I still don't really understand e like


I  I still don't  I still don't really understand e like


I  I still don't  I still don't really understand e like

I mean we sort of say , um  You know , I  I still don't exactly understand sort of the information flow uh in  in this thing , or what the modules are and so on. So , you know , like just that such - and - such module uh um decides that it wants to achieve the goal of greeting the user , and then magically it sort of s


I mean we sort of say , um  You know , I  I still don't exactly understand sort of the information flow uh in  in this thing , or what the modules are and so on. So , you know , like just that such - and - such module uh um decides that it wants to achieve the goal of greeting the user , and then magically it sort of s

I mean , how does it know which syntactic structure to pull out , and all that ?


I mean we sort of say , um  You know , I  I still don't exactly understand sort of the information flow uh in  in this thing , or what the modules are and so on. So , you know , like just that such - and - such module uh um decides that it wants to achieve the goal of greeting the user , and then magically it sort of s

I mean , how does it know which syntactic structure to pull out , and all that ?

I thi Yeah. So. I think it 's not worth going over in the group ,


I mean , how does it know which syntactic structure to pull out , and all that ?

I thi Yeah. So. I think it 's not worth going over in the group ,


I mean , how does it know which syntactic structure to pull out , and all that ?

I thi Yeah. So. I think it 's not worth going over in the group ,

but sort of when you get free and you have the time uh either Robert or Johno or I can walk you through it.


I thi Yeah. So. I think it 's not worth going over in the group ,

but sort of when you get free and you have the time uh either Robert or Johno or I can walk you through it.


but sort of when you get free and you have the time uh either Robert or Johno or I can walk you through it.

And you can ask all the questions about how this all fits together.


And you can ask all the questions about how this all fits together.

It 's eee  messy but once you understand it you understand it. It 's  it 's  There 's nothing really complicated about it.


It 's eee  messy but once you understand it you understand it. It 's  it 's  There 's nothing really complicated about it.


It 's eee  messy but once you understand it you understand it. It 's  it 's  There 's nothing really complicated about it.

And I remember one thing that  that came up in the talk last Wednesday. Um , was this , I  I think he talked about the idea of like , um  He was talking about these lexicalized uh , uh , tree adjoining grammars where you sort of  for each word you , um


And I remember one thing that  that came up in the talk last Wednesday. Um , was this , I  I think he talked about the idea of like , um  He was talking about these lexicalized uh , uh , tree adjoining grammars where you sort of  for each word you , um


And I remember one thing that  that came up in the talk last Wednesday. Um , was this , I  I think he talked about the idea of like , um  He was talking about these lexicalized uh , uh , tree adjoining grammars where you sort of  for each word you , um

For each lexical item , the lexical entry says what all the uh trees are that it can appear in. And of course , that 's not v That 's the opposite of constructional. That 's , you know , that 's  that 's HPSG or whatever.


For each lexical item , the lexical entry says what all the uh trees are that it can appear in. And of course , that 's not v That 's the opposite of constructional. That 's , you know , that 's  that 's HPSG or whatever.


For each lexical item , the lexical entry says what all the uh trees are that it can appear in. And of course , that 's not v That 's the opposite of constructional. That 's , you know , that 's  that 's HPSG or whatever.

Right. Now , we 're  we 're not committed for our research to  do any of those things.


Right. Now , we 're  we 're not committed for our research to  do any of those things.


Yeah , to  n no , to just get the dem get the demos they need.


Yeah , to  n no , to just get the dem get the demos they need.

OK ? So between us all we have t to get th the demos they need. If it turns out we can also give them lots more than that by , you know , tapping into other things we do , that 's great.


Yeah , to  n no , to just get the dem get the demos they need.

OK ? So between us all we have t to get th the demos they need. If it turns out we can also give them lots more than that by , you know , tapping into other things we do , that 's great.

You should probably move the microphone closer to your face.


OK ? So between us all we have t to get th the demos they need. If it turns out we can also give them lots more than that by , you know , tapping into other things we do , that 's great.

You should probably move the microphone closer to your face.


OK ? So between us all we have t to get th the demos they need. If it turns out we can also give them lots more than that by , you know , tapping into other things we do , that 's great.

You should probably move the microphone closer to your face.

But i it turns out not to be in an any of the contracts


You should probably move the microphone closer to your face.

But i it turns out not to be in an any of the contracts

There 's like a little  The twisty thing , you can move it with.


But i it turns out not to be in an any of the contracts

There 's like a little  The twisty thing , you can move it with.


But i it turns out not to be in an any of the contracts

There 's like a little  The twisty thing , you can move it with.

and , s deliberately. So , the reason I 'd like you to understand uh what 's going on in this demo system is not because it 's important to the research. It 's just for closure. So that if we come up with a question of " could we fit this deeper stuff in there ? " or something. You know what the hell we we 're talking about fitting in.


There 's like a little  The twisty thing , you can move it with.

and , s deliberately. So , the reason I 'd like you to understand uh what 's going on in this demo system is not because it 's important to the research. It 's just for closure. So that if we come up with a question of " could we fit this deeper stuff in there ? " or something. You know what the hell we we 're talking about fitting in.


and , s deliberately. So , the reason I 'd like you to understand uh what 's going on in this demo system is not because it 's important to the research. It 's just for closure. So that if we come up with a question of " could we fit this deeper stuff in there ? " or something. You know what the hell we we 're talking about fitting in.

So it 's just , uh in the sam same actually with the rest of us we just need to really understand what 's there. Is there anything we can make use of ? Uh , is there anything we can give back , beyond th the sort of minimum requirements ? But none of that has a short time fuse.


So it 's just , uh in the sam same actually with the rest of us we just need to really understand what 's there. Is there anything we can make use of ? Uh , is there anything we can give back , beyond th the sort of minimum requirements ? But none of that has a short time fuse.

So th the demo the demo requirements for this Fall are sort of taken care of as of later this week or something. And then  So , it 's probably fifteen months or something until there 's another serious demo requirement.


So th the demo the demo requirements for this Fall are sort of taken care of as of later this week or something. And then  So , it 's probably fifteen months or something until there 's another serious demo requirement.

That doesn't mean we don't think about it for fifteen months ,


That doesn't mean we don't think about it for fifteen months ,

but it means we can not think about it for six months.


but it means we can not think about it for six months.

So. The plan for this summer uh , really is to step back from the applied project ,


So. The plan for this summer uh , really is to step back from the applied project ,

keep the d keep the context open , but actually go after the basic issues.


keep the d keep the context open , but actually go after the basic issues.

And , so The idea is there 's this uh , other subgroup that 's worrying about formalizing the nota getting a notation. But sort of in parallel with that , uh , the hope is tha in particularly you will work on constructions in English Ge - and German for this domain ,


And , so The idea is there 's this uh , other subgroup that 's worrying about formalizing the nota getting a notation. But sort of in parallel with that , uh , the hope is tha in particularly you will work on constructions in English Ge - and German for this domain ,

but y not worry about parsing them or fitting them into SmartKom or any of the other  anything lik any other constraints for the time being.


but y not worry about parsing them or fitting them into SmartKom or any of the other  anything lik any other constraints for the time being.

It 's hard enough to get it semantically and syntactically right and then  and get the constructions in their form and stuff.


It 's hard enough to get it semantically and syntactically right and then  and get the constructions in their form and stuff.

And , I don I don't want you f feeling that you have to somehow meet all these other constraints.


And , I don I don't want you f feeling that you have to somehow meet all these other constraints.

Um. And similarly with the parsing , uh we 're gonna worry about parsing uh , the general case you know , construction parser for general constructions. And , if we need a cut - down version for something , or whatever , we 'll worry about that later.


Um. And similarly with the parsing , uh we 're gonna worry about parsing uh , the general case you know , construction parser for general constructions. And , if we need a cut - down version for something , or whatever , we 'll worry about that later.

So I 'd like to , for the summer turn into science mode.


So I 'd like to , for the summer turn into science mode.

And I assume that 's also , uh , your plan as well.


So I 'd like to , for the summer turn into science mode.

And I assume that 's also , uh , your plan as well.

So I mean , the  the point is that like the meetings um so far that I 've been at have been  sort of been geared towards this demo ,


And I assume that 's also , uh , your plan as well.

So I mean , the  the point is that like the meetings um so far that I 've been at have been  sort of been geared towards this demo ,


And I assume that 's also , uh , your plan as well.

So I mean , the  the point is that like the meetings um so far that I 've been at have been  sort of been geared towards this demo ,

and then that 's going to go away pretty soon.


So I mean , the  the point is that like the meetings um so far that I 've been at have been  sort of been geared towards this demo ,

and then that 's going to go away pretty soon.


and then that 's going to go away pretty soon.


And then we 'll sort of shift gears a Fairly substantially ,


It 's got. What I  what I think is  is a good idea that I can  can show to anyone who 's interested , we can even make a  sort of an internal demo , and I  I show you what I do ,


and I can sort of walk f through the information. So , this is like in half hour or forty - five minutes. Just fun.


and I can sort of walk f through the information. So , this is like in half hour or forty - five minutes. Just fun.

And so you  when somebody on the streets com comes up to you and asks you what is SmartKom so you can , sort of , give a sensible answer.


And so you  when somebody on the streets com comes up to you and asks you what is SmartKom so you can , sort of , give a sensible answer.

So , c sh we could set that up as actually an institute wide thing ? Just give a talk in the big room , and  and so peo people know what 's going on ? when you 're ready ?


So , c sh we could set that up as actually an institute wide thing ? Just give a talk in the big room , and  and so peo people know what 's going on ? when you 're ready ?

Yeah I mean , that 's the kind of thing  That 's the level at which you know we can just li invite everybody and say " this is a project that we 've been working on and here 's a demo version of it " and stuff like that.


Yeah I mean , that 's the kind of thing  That 's the level at which you know we can just li invite everybody and say " this is a project that we 've been working on and here 's a demo version of it " and stuff like that.

OK. Well d we  we do wanna have all the bugs out b where you have to sort of pipe in extra XML messages from left and right before you 're


OK. Well d we  we do wanna have all the bugs out b where you have to sort of pipe in extra XML messages from left and right before you 're


But any so that  e e It 's clear , then , I think. Actually , roughly starting uh let 's say , nex next meeting , cuz this meeting we have one other thing to tie up besides the trip report.


But any so that  e e It 's clear , then , I think. Actually , roughly starting uh let 's say , nex next meeting , cuz this meeting we have one other thing to tie up besides the trip report.

But uh starting next meeting I think we want to flip into this mode where  Uh. I mean there are a lot of issues , what 's the ontology look like ,


But uh starting next meeting I think we want to flip into this mode where  Uh. I mean there are a lot of issues , what 's the ontology look like ,

you know what do the constructions look like , what 's the execution engine look like , mmm lots of things.


you know what do the constructions look like , what 's the execution engine look like , mmm lots of things.

But , more focused on uh an idealized version than just getting the demo out. Now before we do that , let 's get back in  Oh ! But , it 's still , I think , useful for you to understand the demo version enough , so that you can  can see what  what it is that  that uh it might eventually get retro - fitted into or something.


But , more focused on uh an idealized version than just getting the demo out. Now before we do that , let 's get back in  Oh ! But , it 's still , I think , useful for you to understand the demo version enough , so that you can  can see what  what it is that  that uh it might eventually get retro - fitted into or something.

And Johno 's already done that , uh , looked at the dem uh the  looked at the SmartKom stuff.


But , more focused on uh an idealized version than just getting the demo out. Now before we do that , let 's get back in  Oh ! But , it 's still , I think , useful for you to understand the demo version enough , so that you can  can see what  what it is that  that uh it might eventually get retro - fitted into or something.

And Johno 's already done that , uh , looked at the dem uh the  looked at the SmartKom stuff.

Wa uh  To some de uh what  what part of th the SmartKom stuff ?


And Johno 's already done that , uh , looked at the dem uh the  looked at the SmartKom stuff.

Wa uh  To some de uh what  what part of th the SmartKom stuff ?


Wa uh  To some de uh what  what part of th the SmartKom stuff ?

OK. Anyway. So , the trip  the report on these  the last we we sort of interrupted you guys telling us about what happened last week.


OK. Anyway. So , the trip  the report on these  the last we we sort of interrupted you guys telling us about what happened last week.


OK. Anyway. So , the trip  the report on these  the last we we sort of interrupted you guys telling us about what happened last week.

Um.  Well it was just amazing to  to see uh how  how instable the whole thing is ,


Um.  Well it was just amazing to  to see uh how  how instable the whole thing is ,

and if you just take the  And I g I got the feeling that we are  the only ones right now who have a running system. I don't know what the guys in Kaiserslautern have running because e the version  that is , the full version that 's on the server d does not work. And you need to do a lot of stuff to make it work. And so it 's  And even Tilman and Ralf sort of said " yeah there never was a really working version that uh did it without th all the shortcuts that they built in for the uh October @ @ version ". So we 're actually maybe ahead of the System Gruppe by now , the system  the integration group. And it was , uh  It was fun to some extent , but the uh the outcome that is sort of of scientific interest is that I think both Ralf and Tilman  um , I know that they enjoyed it here , and they r they  they liked , uh , a lot of the stuff they saw here , what  what we have been thinking about , and they 're more than willing to  to um , cooperate , by all means. And um , part of my responsibility is uh to use our internal " group - ware " server at EML , make that open to all of us and them , so that whatever we discuss in terms of parsing and  and generating and constructions w we  we sort of uh put it in there and they put what they do in there and maybe we can even um , get some overlap , get some synergy out of that. And um , the , uh  If I find someone at  in EML that is interested in that , um I  I may even think that we could look  take constructions and  and generate from them because the tree adjoining grammars that  that Tilman is using is as you said nothing but a mathematical formalism. And you can just do anything with it , whether it 's syntactic trees , H P S G - like stuff , or whether it 's construction. So if you ever get to the generation side of constructing things and there might be something of interest there , but in the moment we 're of course definitely focused on the understanding , um , pipeline.


Um.  Well it was just amazing to  to see uh how  how instable the whole thing is ,

and if you just take the  And I g I got the feeling that we are  the only ones right now who have a running system. I don't know what the guys in Kaiserslautern have running because e the version  that is , the full version that 's on the server d does not work. And you need to do a lot of stuff to make it work. And so it 's  And even Tilman and Ralf sort of said " yeah there never was a really working version that uh did it without th all the shortcuts that they built in for the uh October @ @ version ". So we 're actually maybe ahead of the System Gruppe by now , the system  the integration group. And it was , uh  It was fun to some extent , but the uh the outcome that is sort of of scientific interest is that I think both Ralf and Tilman  um , I know that they enjoyed it here , and they r they  they liked , uh , a lot of the stuff they saw here , what  what we have been thinking about , and they 're more than willing to  to um , cooperate , by all means. And um , part of my responsibility is uh to use our internal " group - ware " server at EML , make that open to all of us and them , so that whatever we discuss in terms of parsing and  and generating and constructions w we  we sort of uh put it in there and they put what they do in there and maybe we can even um , get some overlap , get some synergy out of that. And um , the , uh  If I find someone at  in EML that is interested in that , um I  I may even think that we could look  take constructions and  and generate from them because the tree adjoining grammars that  that Tilman is using is as you said nothing but a mathematical formalism. And you can just do anything with it , whether it 's syntactic trees , H P S G - like stuff , or whether it 's construction. So if you ever get to the generation side of constructing things and there might be something of interest there , but in the moment we 're of course definitely focused on the understanding , um , pipeline.

Anyth - any other   uh repo visit reports sort of stories ? uh we  so we now know I think , what the landscape is like.


and if you just take the  And I g I got the feeling that we are  the only ones right now who have a running system. I don't know what the guys in Kaiserslautern have running because e the version  that is , the full version that 's on the server d does not work. And you need to do a lot of stuff to make it work. And so it 's  And even Tilman and Ralf sort of said " yeah there never was a really working version that uh did it without th all the shortcuts that they built in for the uh October @ @ version ". So we 're actually maybe ahead of the System Gruppe by now , the system  the integration group. And it was , uh  It was fun to some extent , but the uh the outcome that is sort of of scientific interest is that I think both Ralf and Tilman  um , I know that they enjoyed it here , and they r they  they liked , uh , a lot of the stuff they saw here , what  what we have been thinking about , and they 're more than willing to  to um , cooperate , by all means. And um , part of my responsibility is uh to use our internal " group - ware " server at EML , make that open to all of us and them , so that whatever we discuss in terms of parsing and  and generating and constructions w we  we sort of uh put it in there and they put what they do in there and maybe we can even um , get some overlap , get some synergy out of that. And um , the , uh  If I find someone at  in EML that is interested in that , um I  I may even think that we could look  take constructions and  and generate from them because the tree adjoining grammars that  that Tilman is using is as you said nothing but a mathematical formalism. And you can just do anything with it , whether it 's syntactic trees , H P S G - like stuff , or whether it 's construction. So if you ever get to the generation side of constructing things and there might be something of interest there , but in the moment we 're of course definitely focused on the understanding , um , pipeline.

Anyth - any other   uh repo visit reports sort of stories ? uh we  so we now know I think , what the landscape is like.


and if you just take the  And I g I got the feeling that we are  the only ones right now who have a running system. I don't know what the guys in Kaiserslautern have running because e the version  that is , the full version that 's on the server d does not work. And you need to do a lot of stuff to make it work. And so it 's  And even Tilman and Ralf sort of said " yeah there never was a really working version that uh did it without th all the shortcuts that they built in for the uh October @ @ version ". So we 're actually maybe ahead of the System Gruppe by now , the system  the integration group. And it was , uh  It was fun to some extent , but the uh the outcome that is sort of of scientific interest is that I think both Ralf and Tilman  um , I know that they enjoyed it here , and they r they  they liked , uh , a lot of the stuff they saw here , what  what we have been thinking about , and they 're more than willing to  to um , cooperate , by all means. And um , part of my responsibility is uh to use our internal " group - ware " server at EML , make that open to all of us and them , so that whatever we discuss in terms of parsing and  and generating and constructions w we  we sort of uh put it in there and they put what they do in there and maybe we can even um , get some overlap , get some synergy out of that. And um , the , uh  If I find someone at  in EML that is interested in that , um I  I may even think that we could look  take constructions and  and generate from them because the tree adjoining grammars that  that Tilman is using is as you said nothing but a mathematical formalism. And you can just do anything with it , whether it 's syntactic trees , H P S G - like stuff , or whether it 's construction. So if you ever get to the generation side of constructing things and there might be something of interest there , but in the moment we 're of course definitely focused on the understanding , um , pipeline.

Anyth - any other   uh repo visit reports sort of stories ? uh we  so we now know I think , what the landscape is like.

And so we just push on and  and uh , do what we need to do. And one of the things we need to do is the um , and this I think is relatively tight  tightly constrained , is to finish up this belief - net stuff. So. Uh. And I was going to switch to start talking about that unless there 're m other more general questions. OK so here 's where we are on the belief - net stuff as far as I understand it. Um. Going back I guess two weeks ago uh Robert had laid out this belief - net , missing only the connections. Right ? That is   So , he 'd put all th all the dots down , and we went through this , and , I think , more or less convinced ourselves that at least the vast majority of the nodes that we needed for the demo level we were thinking of , were in there. Yeah  we may run across one or two more. But of course the connections weren't. So , uh Bhaskara and I went off and looked at some technical questions about were certain operations sort of legitimate belief - net computations and was there some known problem with them or had someone already uh , solved you know how to do this and stuff. And so Bhaskara tracked that down. The answer seems to be uh , " no , no one has done it , but yes it 's a perfectly reasonable thing to do if that 's what you set out to do ". And , so the current state of things is that , again , starting now , um we 'd like to actually get a running belief - net for this particular subdomain done in the next few weeks. So Bhaskara is switching projects as of the first of June , and uh , he 's gonna leave us an inheritance , which is a uh  hopefully a belief - net that does these things. And there 're two aspects to it , one of which is , you know , technical , getting the coding right , and making it run , and uh stuff like that. And the other is the actual semantics. OK ? What all  you know , what are the considerations and how and what are the ways in which they relate. So he doe h he doesn't need help from this group on the technical aspects or if he does uh we 'll do that separately.


Anyth - any other   uh repo visit reports sort of stories ? uh we  so we now know I think , what the landscape is like.

And so we just push on and  and uh , do what we need to do. And one of the things we need to do is the um , and this I think is relatively tight  tightly constrained , is to finish up this belief - net stuff. So. Uh. And I was going to switch to start talking about that unless there 're m other more general questions. OK so here 's where we are on the belief - net stuff as far as I understand it. Um. Going back I guess two weeks ago uh Robert had laid out this belief - net , missing only the connections. Right ? That is   So , he 'd put all th all the dots down , and we went through this , and , I think , more or less convinced ourselves that at least the vast majority of the nodes that we needed for the demo level we were thinking of , were in there. Yeah  we may run across one or two more. But of course the connections weren't. So , uh Bhaskara and I went off and looked at some technical questions about were certain operations sort of legitimate belief - net computations and was there some known problem with them or had someone already uh , solved you know how to do this and stuff. And so Bhaskara tracked that down. The answer seems to be uh , " no , no one has done it , but yes it 's a perfectly reasonable thing to do if that 's what you set out to do ". And , so the current state of things is that , again , starting now , um we 'd like to actually get a running belief - net for this particular subdomain done in the next few weeks. So Bhaskara is switching projects as of the first of June , and uh , he 's gonna leave us an inheritance , which is a uh  hopefully a belief - net that does these things. And there 're two aspects to it , one of which is , you know , technical , getting the coding right , and making it run , and uh stuff like that. And the other is the actual semantics. OK ? What all  you know , what are the considerations and how and what are the ways in which they relate. So he doe h he doesn't need help from this group on the technical aspects or if he does uh we 'll do that separately.


And so we just push on and  and uh , do what we need to do. And one of the things we need to do is the um , and this I think is relatively tight  tightly constrained , is to finish up this belief - net stuff. So. Uh. And I was going to switch to start talking about that unless there 're m other more general questions. OK so here 's where we are on the belief - net stuff as far as I understand it. Um. Going back I guess two weeks ago uh Robert had laid out this belief - net , missing only the connections. Right ? That is   So , he 'd put all th all the dots down , and we went through this , and , I think , more or less convinced ourselves that at least the vast majority of the nodes that we needed for the demo level we were thinking of , were in there. Yeah  we may run across one or two more. But of course the connections weren't. So , uh Bhaskara and I went off and looked at some technical questions about were certain operations sort of legitimate belief - net computations and was there some known problem with them or had someone already uh , solved you know how to do this and stuff. And so Bhaskara tracked that down. The answer seems to be uh , " no , no one has done it , but yes it 's a perfectly reasonable thing to do if that 's what you set out to do ". And , so the current state of things is that , again , starting now , um we 'd like to actually get a running belief - net for this particular subdomain done in the next few weeks. So Bhaskara is switching projects as of the first of June , and uh , he 's gonna leave us an inheritance , which is a uh  hopefully a belief - net that does these things. And there 're two aspects to it , one of which is , you know , technical , getting the coding right , and making it run , and uh stuff like that. And the other is the actual semantics. OK ? What all  you know , what are the considerations and how and what are the ways in which they relate. So he doe h he doesn't need help from this group on the technical aspects or if he does uh we 'll do that separately.

But in terms of what are the decisions and stuff like that , that 's something that we all have to work out. Is  is that right ? I mean that 's  that 's both you guys ' understanding of where we are ?


But in terms of what are the decisions and stuff like that , that 's something that we all have to work out. Is  is that right ? I mean that 's  that 's both you guys ' understanding of where we are ?


But in terms of what are the decisions and stuff like that , that 's something that we all have to work out. Is  is that right ? I mean that 's  that 's both you guys ' understanding of where we are ?

So , I guess , um  Is there like a latest version of the belief - net  of the proposed belief - net ? Like


So , I guess , um  Is there like a latest version of the belief - net  of the proposed belief - net ? Like


So , I guess , um  Is there like a latest version of the belief - net  of the proposed belief - net ? Like

Um. Well , no , we didn't decide. We wanted to look into maybe getting it , the visualization , a bit clearer , but I think if we do it , um , sort of a paper version of all the nodes and then the connections between them , that should suffice.


Um. Well , no , we didn't decide. We wanted to look into maybe getting it , the visualization , a bit clearer , but I think if we do it , um , sort of a paper version of all the nodes and then the connections between them , that should suffice.


Um. Well , no , we didn't decide. We wanted to look into maybe getting it , the visualization , a bit clearer , but I think if we do it , um , sort of a paper version of all the nodes and then the connections between them , that should suffice.

Yeah I mean , that 's a separate problem.


Yeah I mean , that 's a separate problem.

We do in the long run wanna do better visualization and all that stuff.


We do in the long run wanna do better visualization and all that stuff.


We do in the long run wanna do better visualization and all that stuff.

I did look into that , uh in terms of , you know , exploding the nodes out and down ag


I did look into that , uh in terms of , you know , exploding the nodes out and down ag


I did look into that , uh in terms of , you know , exploding the nodes out and down ag

JavaBayes does not support that. I can imagine a way of hacking at the code to do that. It 'd probably take two weeks or so to actually go through and do it ,


JavaBayes does not support that. I can imagine a way of hacking at the code to do that. It 'd probably take two weeks or so to actually go through and do it ,

and I went through all the other packages on Murph - Kevin Murphy 's page ,


and I went through all the other packages on Murph - Kevin Murphy 's page ,

and I couldn't find the necessary mix of free and uh with the GUI and , with this thing that we want.


and I went through all the other packages on Murph - Kevin Murphy 's page ,

and I couldn't find the necessary mix of free and uh with the GUI and , with this thing that we want.

Well , we can p If it 's  If we can pay  Yeah. If you know it 's paying a thousand dollars or something we can do that. OK ? So  so don't view free as  as a absolute constraint.


and I couldn't find the necessary mix of free and uh with the GUI and , with this thing that we want.

Well , we can p If it 's  If we can pay  Yeah. If you know it 's paying a thousand dollars or something we can do that. OK ? So  so don't view free as  as a absolute constraint.

OK. OK , so then I 'll go back and look at the ones on the list that


Well , we can p If it 's  If we can pay  Yeah. If you know it 's paying a thousand dollars or something we can do that. OK ? So  so don't view free as  as a absolute constraint.

OK. OK , so then I 'll go back and look at the ones on the list that


OK. OK , so then I 'll go back and look at the ones on the list that


Yeah , the one that uh people seem to use is uh Hugin or whatever ?


Yeah , the one that uh people seem to use is uh Hugin or whatever ?

How exp I don't think it 's  Is it free ? Because I 've seen it advertised in places so I  it seems to


Yeah , the one that uh people seem to use is uh Hugin or whatever ?

How exp I don't think it 's  Is it free ? Because I 've seen it advertised in places so I  it seems to

Uh , it may be free to academics. Like I  I don't know. I have a co  I have a copy  that I l I downloaded.


How exp I don't think it 's  Is it free ? Because I 've seen it advertised in places so I  it seems to

Uh , it may be free to academics. Like I  I don't know. I have a co  I have a copy  that I l I downloaded.


Uh , it may be free to academics. Like I  I don't know. I have a co  I have a copy  that I l I downloaded.


Uh but yo I noticed people do use Hugin so um ,


And Bhaskara can give you a pointer. So then , in any case , um  But paying a lit You know , if i if it 's uh  Probably for university , it 's  it 's gonna be real cheap anyway. But um , you know , if it 's fifty thousand dollars we aren't gonna do it. I 'm mean , we have no need for that.


And Bhaskara can give you a pointer. So then , in any case , um  But paying a lit You know , if i if it 's uh  Probably for university , it 's  it 's gonna be real cheap anyway. But um , you know , if it 's fifty thousand dollars we aren't gonna do it. I 'm mean , we have no need for that.

I  I also s would suggest not to d spend two weeks in  in  in changing the  the JavaBayes code.


I  I also s would suggest not to d spend two weeks in  in  in changing the  the JavaBayes code.


I  I will send you a pointer to a Java applet that does that , it 's sort of a fish - eye. You  you have a node , and you click on it , and it shows you all the connections ,


I  I will send you a pointer to a Java applet that does that , it 's sort of a fish - eye. You  you have a node , and you click on it , and it shows you all the connections ,

and then if you click on something else that moves away , that goes into the middle. And maybe there is an easy way of interfacing those two. If that doesn't work , it 's not a problem we  we need to solve right now. What I 'm  what my job is , I will , um , give you the input in terms of  of the internal structure. Maybe node by node , or something like this ? Or should I collect it all


and then if you click on something else that moves away , that goes into the middle. And maybe there is an easy way of interfacing those two. If that doesn't work , it 's not a problem we  we need to solve right now. What I 'm  what my job is , I will , um , give you the input in terms of  of the internal structure. Maybe node by node , or something like this ? Or should I collect it all


Um , just any like  like sort of rough representation of the entire belief - net is probably best.


Um , just any like  like sort of rough representation of the entire belief - net is probably best.

OK. And um you 're gonna be around ? t again , always Tuesdays and Thursdays afternoon - ish ? As usual ? Or will that change ?


Um , just any like  like sort of rough representation of the entire belief - net is probably best.

OK. And um you 're gonna be around ? t again , always Tuesdays and Thursdays afternoon - ish ? As usual ? Or will that change ?

Yeah  I mean , yeah , I can  like I c Um. This week I guess um , kind of  I have a lot of projects and stuff but after that I will generally be more free. So yes , I might  I can be around. And g I mean , generally if you email me also I can be around on other days.


OK. And um you 're gonna be around ? t again , always Tuesdays and Thursdays afternoon - ish ? As usual ? Or will that change ?

Yeah  I mean , yeah , I can  like I c Um. This week I guess um , kind of  I have a lot of projects and stuff but after that I will generally be more free. So yes , I might  I can be around. And g I mean , generally if you email me also I can be around on other days.

Yeah and this is not a crisis that  I mean , you do , e everybody who 's a student should , you know do their work , get their c courses all in good shape and  and  and  and then we 'll dig  d dig down on this.


Yeah  I mean , yeah , I can  like I c Um. This week I guess um , kind of  I have a lot of projects and stuff but after that I will generally be more free. So yes , I might  I can be around. And g I mean , generally if you email me also I can be around on other days.

Yeah and this is not a crisis that  I mean , you do , e everybody who 's a student should , you know do their work , get their c courses all in good shape and  and  and  and then we 'll dig  d dig down on this.

Yeah , that 's  Yeah. OK. No , that 's good. That means I have I h I can spend this week doing it. So.


Yeah and this is not a crisis that  I mean , you do , e everybody who 's a student should , you know do their work , get their c courses all in good shape and  and  and  and then we 'll dig  d dig down on this.

Yeah , that 's  Yeah. OK. No , that 's good. That means I have I h I can spend this week doing it. So.


Yeah and this is not a crisis that  I mean , you do , e everybody who 's a student should , you know do their work , get their c courses all in good shape and  and  and  and then we 'll dig  d dig down on this.

Yeah , that 's  Yeah. OK. No , that 's good. That means I have I h I can spend this week doing it. So.

How do you go about this process of deciding what these connections are ? I know that there 's an issue of how to weight the different things too , and stuff. Right ? I mean do you just sort of guess and see if it sort of


Yeah , that 's  Yeah. OK. No , that 's good. That means I have I h I can spend this week doing it. So.

How do you go about this process of deciding what these connections are ? I know that there 's an issue of how to weight the different things too , and stuff. Right ? I mean do you just sort of guess and see if it sort of

Right. Well there  there  there There 're two different things you do.


How do you go about this process of deciding what these connections are ? I know that there 's an issue of how to weight the different things too , and stuff. Right ? I mean do you just sort of guess and see if it sort of

Right. Well there  there  there There 're two different things you do.


How do you go about this process of deciding what these connections are ? I know that there 's an issue of how to weight the different things too , and stuff. Right ? I mean do you just sort of guess and see if it sort of

Right. Well there  there  there There 're two different things you do.

One is you design and the other is you learn. OK ? So uh what we 're gonna do initially is  is do design , and , i if you will , guess.


Right. Well there  there  there There 're two different things you do.

One is you design and the other is you learn. OK ? So uh what we 're gonna do initially is  is do design , and , i if you will , guess.


One is you design and the other is you learn. OK ? So uh what we 're gonna do initially is  is do design , and , i if you will , guess.

OK. Uh that is you know use your best knowledge of  of the domain to uh , hypothesize what the dependencies are and stuff.


OK. Uh that is you know use your best knowledge of  of the domain to uh , hypothesize what the dependencies are and stuff.

If it 's done right , and if you have data then , there are techniques for learning the numbers given the structure


If it 's done right , and if you have data then , there are techniques for learning the numbers given the structure

and there are even techniques for learning the structure , although that takes a lot more data , and it 's not as @ @ and so forth and so on. So uh but for the limited amount of stuff we have for this particular exercise I think we 'll just design it.


and there are even techniques for learning the structure , although that takes a lot more data , and it 's not as @ @ and so forth and so on. So uh but for the limited amount of stuff we have for this particular exercise I think we 'll just design it.

Yeah. Fo - Hopefully as time passes we 'll get more and more data from Heidelberg and from people actually using it and stuff.


Yeah. Fo - Hopefully as time passes we 'll get more and more data from Heidelberg and from people actually using it and stuff.


But to solve our problems ag uh a mediocre design will do I think in the beginning.


But to solve our problems ag uh a mediocre design will do I think in the beginning.

Yeah , that 's right. Yeah , oh , and by the way , speaking of data , um , are there I could swore  uh , I could swear I saw it sitting on someone 's desk at some point , but is there a  um a transcript of any of the , sort of , initial interactions of people with the  with the system ? Cuz you know , I 'm still sort of itching to  to look at what  look at the stuff , and see what people are saying.


But to solve our problems ag uh a mediocre design will do I think in the beginning.

Yeah , that 's right. Yeah , oh , and by the way , speaking of data , um , are there I could swore  uh , I could swear I saw it sitting on someone 's desk at some point , but is there a  um a transcript of any of the , sort of , initial interactions of people with the  with the system ? Cuz you know , I 'm still sort of itching to  to look at what  look at the stuff , and see what people are saying.

Mm - hmm. Yeah. Yeah make yourself a note. So and  and , of course Keith would like the German as well as the English , so whatever you guys can get.


But to solve our problems ag uh a mediocre design will do I think in the beginning.

Yeah , that 's right. Yeah , oh , and by the way , speaking of data , um , are there I could swore  uh , I could swear I saw it sitting on someone 's desk at some point , but is there a  um a transcript of any of the , sort of , initial interactions of people with the  with the system ? Cuz you know , I 'm still sort of itching to  to look at what  look at the stuff , and see what people are saying.

Mm - hmm. Yeah. Yeah make yourself a note. So and  and , of course Keith would like the German as well as the English , so whatever you guys can get.

The German. Oh yeah , of course , German. Yeah.


Yeah , that 's right. Yeah , oh , and by the way , speaking of data , um , are there I could swore  uh , I could swear I saw it sitting on someone 's desk at some point , but is there a  um a transcript of any of the , sort of , initial interactions of people with the  with the system ? Cuz you know , I 'm still sort of itching to  to look at what  look at the stuff , and see what people are saying.

Mm - hmm. Yeah. Yeah make yourself a note. So and  and , of course Keith would like the German as well as the English , so whatever you guys can get.

The German. Oh yeah , of course , German. Yeah.

Yeah , the y your native language , right ? You remember that one.


Mm - hmm. Yeah. Yeah make yourself a note. So and  and , of course Keith would like the German as well as the English , so whatever you guys can get.

The German. Oh yeah , of course , German. Yeah.

Yeah , the y your native language , right ? You remember that one.


The German. Oh yeah , of course , German. Yeah.

Yeah , the y your native language , right ? You remember that one.


Yeah , the y your native language , right ? You remember that one.


u OK. Yeah , I mean I  I sort of um found the uh , uh the audio of some of those , and um , it kind of sounded like I didn't want to trudge through that , you know.


We probably will not get those to describe because they were trial runs.


We probably will not get those to describe because they were trial runs.

Um , but uh that 's th but we have data in English and German already.


Um , but uh that 's th but we have data in English and German already.

So.  Transcribed. I will send you that. OK.


Um , but uh that 's th but we have data in English and German already.

So.  Transcribed. I will send you that. OK.

OK , so while we 're still at this sort of top level , anything else that we oughta talk about today ?


So.  Transcribed. I will send you that. OK.

OK , so while we 're still at this sort of top level , anything else that we oughta talk about today ?


So.  Transcribed. I will send you that. OK.

OK , so while we 're still at this sort of top level , anything else that we oughta talk about today ?

Oh , um , I just wanted to , uh , s like mention as an issue , um , you know last meeting I wasn't here because I went to a linguistics colloquium on the fictive motion stuff ,


OK , so while we 're still at this sort of top level , anything else that we oughta talk about today ?

Oh , um , I just wanted to , uh , s like mention as an issue , um , you know last meeting I wasn't here because I went to a linguistics colloquium on the fictive motion stuff ,


Oh , um , I just wanted to , uh , s like mention as an issue , um , you know last meeting I wasn't here because I went to a linguistics colloquium on the fictive motion stuff ,

and that was pretty interesting and you know , I mean , seems to me that that will fairly obviously be of relevance to uh  to what we 're doing here because you know people are likely to give descriptions like you know , " What 's that thing uh right where you start to go up the hill , " or something like that , you know , meaning a few feet up the hill or whatever from some reference point and all that stuff so I mean , I 'm sure in terms of you know , people trying to state locations or , you know , all that kind of stuff , this is gonna be very relevant. So , um , now that was  the talk was about English versus Japanese , um , which obviously the Japanese doesn't affect us directly , except that , um , some of the construction  he 'd  what he talked about was that you know in English we say things like th you know , " your bike is parked across the street " and we use these prepositional phrases , you know , " well , if you were to move across the street you would be at the bike " , but um in  in Japanese the  the more conventionalized tendency is to use a  sort of a description of " where one has crossed to the river , there is a tree ". Um , and you know , you can actually say things like , um , " there 's a tree where one has crossed the river , but no one has ever crossed the river " , or something like that. So the idea is that this really is you know that 's supposed show that 's it 's really fictive and so on. But um  But the point is that that kind of construction is also used in English , you know , like " right where you start to go up the hill " , or " just when you get off the train " , or something like that to  uh , to indicate where something is.


and that was pretty interesting and you know , I mean , seems to me that that will fairly obviously be of relevance to uh  to what we 're doing here because you know people are likely to give descriptions like you know , " What 's that thing uh right where you start to go up the hill , " or something like that , you know , meaning a few feet up the hill or whatever from some reference point and all that stuff so I mean , I 'm sure in terms of you know , people trying to state locations or , you know , all that kind of stuff , this is gonna be very relevant. So , um , now that was  the talk was about English versus Japanese , um , which obviously the Japanese doesn't affect us directly , except that , um , some of the construction  he 'd  what he talked about was that you know in English we say things like th you know , " your bike is parked across the street " and we use these prepositional phrases , you know , " well , if you were to move across the street you would be at the bike " , but um in  in Japanese the  the more conventionalized tendency is to use a  sort of a description of " where one has crossed to the river , there is a tree ". Um , and you know , you can actually say things like , um , " there 's a tree where one has crossed the river , but no one has ever crossed the river " , or something like that. So the idea is that this really is you know that 's supposed show that 's it 's really fictive and so on. But um  But the point is that that kind of construction is also used in English , you know , like " right where you start to go up the hill " , or " just when you get off the train " , or something like that to  uh , to indicate where something is.


Um. The uh  Well  I wa I was on a uh  on a  on a different sidetrack.


Um. The uh  Well  I wa I was on a uh  on a  on a different sidetrack.

I mean , the  the Deep Map project which um is undergoing some renovation at  at the moment , but this is a  a three language project : German , English , Japanese.


I mean , the  the Deep Map project which um is undergoing some renovation at  at the moment , but this is a  a three language project : German , English , Japanese.

And um , we have a uh , uh  I have taken care that we have the  the Japanese generation and stuff. And so I looked into uh spatial description. So we can generate spatial descriptions , how to get from A to B. And  and information on objects , in German , English , and Japanese.


And um , we have a uh , uh  I have taken care that we have the  the Japanese generation and stuff. And so I looked into uh spatial description. So we can generate spatial descriptions , how to get from A to B. And  and information on objects , in German , English , and Japanese.

And there is a huge uh project on spatial descriptions uh  differences in spatial descriptions. Well , if yo if you 're interested in that , so how  how , I mean it does sort of go d all the way down to the conceptual level to some extent.


And there is a huge uh project on spatial descriptions uh  differences in spatial descriptions. Well , if yo if you 're interested in that , so how  how , I mean it does sort of go d all the way down to the conceptual level to some extent.


It 's KLEIST. It 's the uh Bielefeld generation of uh spatial descriptions and whatever.


It 's KLEIST. It 's the uh Bielefeld generation of uh spatial descriptions and whatever.

Well , that may be another thing that Keith wants to look at.


Well , that may be another thing that Keith wants to look at.

But um , I  I think we should leave Japanese constructions maybe outside of the scope for  for now ,


But um , I  I think we should leave Japanese constructions maybe outside of the scope for  for now ,

but um definitely it 's interesting to look at  at cross the bordered there.


but um definitely it 's interesting to look at  at cross the bordered there.

Are  are you going to p pay any attention to the relative position  of  of the direction relative  relative to the speaker ? For example , there are some differences between Hebrew and English. We can say um " park in front of the car " as you come beh you drive behind the car. In Hebrew it means " park behind the car " , because to follow the car is defined as it faces you.


Are  are you going to p pay any attention to the relative position  of  of the direction relative  relative to the speaker ? For example , there are some differences between Hebrew and English. We can say um " park in front of the car " as you come beh you drive behind the car. In Hebrew it means " park behind the car " , because to follow the car is defined as it faces you.

While in English , front of the car is the absolute front of the car.


While in English , front of the car is the absolute front of the car.


While in English , front of the car is the absolute front of the car.

Right , so the canonical direction of motion determines where the front is.


Right , so the canonical direction of motion determines where the front is.


Right , so the canonical direction of motion determines where the front is.

So , i i i is German uh closer to  to E uh , uh , uh , uh  to E I mean uh


So , i i i is German uh closer to  to E uh , uh , uh , uh  to E I mean uh


So , i i i is German uh closer to  to E uh , uh , uh , uh  to E I mean uh

I don't think it  it 's related to syntax , though , so it may be entirely different.


I don't think it  it 's related to syntax , though , so it may be entirely different.


Um. Did you ever get to look at the  the rou paper that I sent you on the  on that problem in English and German ?


Um. Did you ever get to look at the  the rou paper that I sent you on the  on that problem in English and German ?

Carroll , ninety - three. Um. I  There is a  a study on the differences between English and German on exactly that problem.


Carroll , ninety - three. Um. I  There is a  a study on the differences between English and German on exactly that problem.

So it 's  they actually say " the monkey in front of the car , where 's the monkey ? "


So it 's  they actually say " the monkey in front of the car , where 's the monkey ? "

And , um , they found statistically very significant differences in English and German , so I  I  I  It might be , since there are only a finite number of ways of doing it , that  that German might be more like Hebrew in that respect.


And , um , they found statistically very significant differences in English and German , so I  I  I  It might be , since there are only a finite number of ways of doing it , that  that German might be more like Hebrew in that respect.

The solution they proposed was that it was due to syntactic factors.


The solution they proposed was that it was due to syntactic factors.

That syntactic facto factors do  do play a role there , wh whether you 're more likely , you know , to develop uh , choices that lead you towards using uh intrinsic versus extrinsic reference frames.


That syntactic facto factors do  do play a role there , wh whether you 're more likely , you know , to develop uh , choices that lead you towards using uh intrinsic versus extrinsic reference frames.

I mean , it seems to me that you can get both in  in English depending o


I mean , it seems to me that you can get both in  in English depending o

You know , like , " in front of the car " could you know  Like , here 's the car sideways to me in between me and the car or something 's in front of the car , or whatever. I could see that ,


You know , like , " in front of the car " could you know  Like , here 's the car sideways to me in between me and the car or something 's in front of the car , or whatever. I could see that ,

but  But anyway , so you know , I mean , this was  this was a  a very good talk on those kinds of issues and so on. So uh.


You know , like , " in front of the car " could you know  Like , here 's the car sideways to me in between me and the car or something 's in front of the car , or whatever. I could see that ,

but  But anyway , so you know , I mean , this was  this was a  a very good talk on those kinds of issues and so on. So uh.

I can also give you uh , a pointer to a paper of mine which is the  the ultimate taxonomy of reference frames.


but  But anyway , so you know , I mean , this was  this was a  a very good talk on those kinds of issues and so on. So uh.

I can also give you uh , a pointer to a paper of mine which is the  the ultimate taxonomy of reference frames.


I can also give you uh , a pointer to a paper of mine which is the  the ultimate taxonomy of reference frames.


I 'm the only person in the world who actually knows how it works.


What do you mean. Um. " reference frames " ?


What do you mean. Um. " reference frames " ?

It 's  it 's spatial reference frames. You actually have only  Um. If you wanna have a  This is usually um  I should  there should be an " L " , though. Well actually you have  only have two choices. You can either do a two - point or a three - point which is you You 're familiar with th with the " origo " ? where that 's the center  " Origo " is the center of the f frame of reference.


It 's  it 's spatial reference frames. You actually have only  Um. If you wanna have a  This is usually um  I should  there should be an " L " , though. Well actually you have  only have two choices. You can either do a two - point or a three - point which is you You 're familiar with th with the " origo " ? where that 's the center  " Origo " is the center of the f frame of reference.


It 's  it 's spatial reference frames. You actually have only  Um. If you wanna have a  This is usually um  I should  there should be an " L " , though. Well actually you have  only have two choices. You can either do a two - point or a three - point which is you You 're familiar with th with the " origo " ? where that 's the center  " Origo " is the center of the f frame of reference.

And then you have the reference object and the object to be localized.


And then you have the reference object and the object to be localized.


And then you have the reference object and the object to be localized.

OK ? In some cases the origo is the same as the reference object.


OK ? In some cases the origo is the same as the reference object.

So that would be " origin " in English ,


So that would be " origin " in English ,


" Origo " is a Terminus technikus. in that sense , that 's even used in the English literature. " Origo. "


And um , so , this video tape is in front of me.


And um , so , this video tape is in front of me.

I 'm the origo and I 'm also the reference object.


I 'm the origo and I 'm also the reference object.


And three - point relations is if something has an intrinsic front side like this chair then your f shoe is behind the chair.


And three - point relations is if something has an intrinsic front side like this chair then your f shoe is behind the chair.

And , reference object and  Um. No , from  from my point of view your shoe is left of the chair.


And , reference object and  Um. No , from  from my point of view your shoe is left of the chair.

Right. You  you can actually say things like , um , " it 's behind the tree from me " or something like that , I think , in  in  in certain circumstances in English , right ? As sort of " from where I 'm standing it would appear that "


And , reference object and  Um. No , from  from my point of view your shoe is left of the chair.

Right. You  you can actually say things like , um , " it 's behind the tree from me " or something like that , I think , in  in  in certain circumstances in English , right ? As sort of " from where I 'm standing it would appear that "

Looks a little bit like Reichenbach for time.


Right. You  you can actually say things like , um , " it 's behind the tree from me " or something like that , I think , in  in  in certain circumstances in English , right ? As sort of " from where I 'm standing it would appear that "

Looks a little bit like Reichenbach for time.


Looks a little bit like Reichenbach for time.


On this scale , you have it either be ego or allocentric.


On this scale , you have it either be ego or allocentric.

And that 's   that 's basically it. So. Egocentric two - point , egocentric three - point , or you can have allocentric.


And that 's   that 's basically it. So. Egocentric two - point , egocentric three - point , or you can have allocentric.

So , " as seen from the church , the town hall is right of that um , fire station ". aa - huh  It 's hardly ever used but it 's w