I would agree. I think we do need more employers involved in this. I think there are opportunities to join up employers and schools and education facilities a lot more than we do at the moment. I suppose that the bee in my bonnet is that we are involved in lots of social value-type contracts in this sector, and that to me is a perfect opportunity to tie in employers into schools and colleges and get that time and input from them into schools in a far more co-ordinated way. It happens at the moment. It's the community benefits clauses that are in construction contracts. They're there to serve a really good purpose, but it's become a little bit piecemeal and a little bit tokenistic, whereas the Welsh bac offers an opportunity—. It's something that's part of the curriculum. It's clearly not functioning well at the moment. It would benefit from that business input. So, why not link up those contractual clauses, which tie in employers and feed it directly into schools so that we have a far more structured way of getting employers into schools? At the moment it's a little bit—we'll pick up the phone, we'll get a phone call, and it'll be, 'Can you come and do something for us?' It's tokenistic. We need to be far more clever in terms of how we join these things up, and then I think you'll start to get that business input there, but let's not be ad hoc about it.

Could I just add something? We've also got several other programmes that are engaging employers really well. Career Ready is a national programme, which we use in the college and which other colleges across the UK use. That's where employers mentor students so everyone has a mentor for the whole of the two years of the programme, from employment, and they all go out for at least six weeks' internship. So, they don't go for a day's work placement or two days—they go for six-week internships. Some learners have got real benefit from that and really raised their aspirations. We've got BTEC learners who have gone through that programme and gone into law degrees with Freshfields law in London, which is one of the top law firms in the world. So, there are lots of other programmes as well, and perhaps there's a way of joining it all up together. But, in the college, we've got several different programmes going on with employers and the Welsh bac is one of them, but it's not the one that engages employers the best, certainly in our college.


I would agree. I think we do need more employers involved in this. I think there are opportunities to join up employers and schools and education facilities a lot more than we do at the moment. I suppose that the bee in my bonnet is that we are involved in lots of social value-type contracts in this sector, and that to me is a perfect opportunity to tie in employers into schools and colleges and get that time and input from them into schools in a far more co-ordinated way. It happens at the moment. It's the community benefits clauses that are in construction contracts. They're there to serve a really good purpose, but it's become a little bit piecemeal and a little bit tokenistic, whereas the Welsh bac offers an opportunity—. It's something that's part of the curriculum. It's clearly not functioning well at the moment. It would benefit from that business input. So, why not link up those contractual clauses, which tie in employers and feed it directly into schools so that we have a far more structured way of getting employers into schools? At the moment it's a little bit—we'll pick up the phone, we'll get a phone call, and it'll be, 'Can you come and do something for us?' It's tokenistic. We need to be far more clever in terms of how we join these things up, and then I think you'll start to get that business input there, but let's not be ad hoc about it.

Could I just add something? We've also got several other programmes that are engaging employers really well. Career Ready is a national programme, which we use in the college and which other colleges across the UK use. That's where employers mentor students so everyone has a mentor for the whole of the two years of the programme, from employment, and they all go out for at least six weeks' internship. So, they don't go for a day's work placement or two days—they go for six-week internships. Some learners have got real benefit from that and really raised their aspirations. We've got BTEC learners who have gone through that programme and gone into law degrees with Freshfields law in London, which is one of the top law firms in the world. So, there are lots of other programmes as well, and perhaps there's a way of joining it all up together. But, in the college, we've got several different programmes going on with employers and the Welsh bac is one of them, but it's not the one that engages employers the best, certainly in our college.

You don't need to answer that. [Laughter.]


Could I just add something? We've also got several other programmes that are engaging employers really well. Career Ready is a national programme, which we use in the college and which other colleges across the UK use. That's where employers mentor students so everyone has a mentor for the whole of the two years of the programme, from employment, and they all go out for at least six weeks' internship. So, they don't go for a day's work placement or two days—they go for six-week internships. Some learners have got real benefit from that and really raised their aspirations. We've got BTEC learners who have gone through that programme and gone into law degrees with Freshfields law in London, which is one of the top law firms in the world. So, there are lots of other programmes as well, and perhaps there's a way of joining it all up together. But, in the college, we've got several different programmes going on with employers and the Welsh bac is one of them, but it's not the one that engages employers the best, certainly in our college.

You don't need to answer that. [Laughter.]

I mean, if there are so many other programmes helping anyway, why do we need it?


You don't need to answer that. [Laughter.]

I mean, if there are so many other programmes helping anyway, why do we need it?

I think that is a very good question, but I will go back to Ed's point, which I think was a very important point, which is that the initial vision for the Welsh bac—I think when we go back a number of years—was a really good, good vision for the Welsh bac. It was going to be an overarching qualification that developed these skills, and certainly employability skills, and I think it's lost its way since then. It's become a qualification and all the realms around becoming a qualification, and it's become very much focused on outcomes rather than necessarily skills. And that's what happens, unfortunately. But I think what Ed said is absolutely right: if you get the engagement of the employers—. But you've got to listen to what Kay said as well: there are programmes already out there. So, why are we focusing one way when there are already programmes that work extremely well? I will go to the enhanced programmes, enhanced engineering and programmes that we are running within our college and that I know run in other colleges, which are much, much more focused on skills, much more focused in linking with industry, and they work extremely well. The actual progress of learners into employment is happening. So, I think the question is: have we got programmes already in place, and do we need another one on top? But the vision initially for the Welsh bac, as I said, I will always be positive about. The vision was a good one.


You don't need to answer that. [Laughter.]

I mean, if there are so many other programmes helping anyway, why do we need it?

I think that is a very good question, but I will go back to Ed's point, which I think was a very important point, which is that the initial vision for the Welsh bac—I think when we go back a number of years—was a really good, good vision for the Welsh bac. It was going to be an overarching qualification that developed these skills, and certainly employability skills, and I think it's lost its way since then. It's become a qualification and all the realms around becoming a qualification, and it's become very much focused on outcomes rather than necessarily skills. And that's what happens, unfortunately. But I think what Ed said is absolutely right: if you get the engagement of the employers—. But you've got to listen to what Kay said as well: there are programmes already out there. So, why are we focusing one way when there are already programmes that work extremely well? I will go to the enhanced programmes, enhanced engineering and programmes that we are running within our college and that I know run in other colleges, which are much, much more focused on skills, much more focused in linking with industry, and they work extremely well. The actual progress of learners into employment is happening. So, I think the question is: have we got programmes already in place, and do we need another one on top? But the vision initially for the Welsh bac, as I said, I will always be positive about. The vision was a good one.

I'd like to expand on what Nick said. It's important for you to understand that although we always try and put the learner first, funding does drive behaviours, and the Welsh bac is fundable; Career Ready isn't. So, yes, there are options out there, but because we're so focused on qualifications and we will only fund qualifications, that drives certain behaviours, and I think you need as a committee to be very much aware of that.


I mean, if there are so many other programmes helping anyway, why do we need it?

I think that is a very good question, but I will go back to Ed's point, which I think was a very important point, which is that the initial vision for the Welsh bac—I think when we go back a number of years—was a really good, good vision for the Welsh bac. It was going to be an overarching qualification that developed these skills, and certainly employability skills, and I think it's lost its way since then. It's become a qualification and all the realms around becoming a qualification, and it's become very much focused on outcomes rather than necessarily skills. And that's what happens, unfortunately. But I think what Ed said is absolutely right: if you get the engagement of the employers—. But you've got to listen to what Kay said as well: there are programmes already out there. So, why are we focusing one way when there are already programmes that work extremely well? I will go to the enhanced programmes, enhanced engineering and programmes that we are running within our college and that I know run in other colleges, which are much, much more focused on skills, much more focused in linking with industry, and they work extremely well. The actual progress of learners into employment is happening. So, I think the question is: have we got programmes already in place, and do we need another one on top? But the vision initially for the Welsh bac, as I said, I will always be positive about. The vision was a good one.

I'd like to expand on what Nick said. It's important for you to understand that although we always try and put the learner first, funding does drive behaviours, and the Welsh bac is fundable; Career Ready isn't. So, yes, there are options out there, but because we're so focused on qualifications and we will only fund qualifications, that drives certain behaviours, and I think you need as a committee to be very much aware of that.


I think that is a very good question, but I will go back to Ed's point, which I think was a very important point, which is that the initial vision for the Welsh bac—I think when we go back a number of years—was a really good, good vision for the Welsh bac. It was going to be an overarching qualification that developed these skills, and certainly employability skills, and I think it's lost its way since then. It's become a qualification and all the realms around becoming a qualification, and it's become very much focused on outcomes rather than necessarily skills. And that's what happens, unfortunately. But I think what Ed said is absolutely right: if you get the engagement of the employers—. But you've got to listen to what Kay said as well: there are programmes already out there. So, why are we focusing one way when there are already programmes that work extremely well? I will go to the enhanced programmes, enhanced engineering and programmes that we are running within our college and that I know run in other colleges, which are much, much more focused on skills, much more focused in linking with industry, and they work extremely well. The actual progress of learners into employment is happening. So, I think the question is: have we got programmes already in place, and do we need another one on top? But the vision initially for the Welsh bac, as I said, I will always be positive about. The vision was a good one.

I'd like to expand on what Nick said. It's important for you to understand that although we always try and put the learner first, funding does drive behaviours, and the Welsh bac is fundable; Career Ready isn't. So, yes, there are options out there, but because we're so focused on qualifications and we will only fund qualifications, that drives certain behaviours, and I think you need as a committee to be very much aware of that.

Yes, but that was very useful information for us, because bearing in mind what Nick Brazil said—that the vision of this was created as almost something that could have the status of something like a Duke of Edinburgh award without necessarily being a compulsory qualification; what was important was that the learners got the skills. However, if getting the qualification is how you get the money, then you can see why schools—well, and indeed colleges—might be tempted to go for it. So, thank you for that. Diolch.


I'd like to expand on what Nick said. It's important for you to understand that although we always try and put the learner first, funding does drive behaviours, and the Welsh bac is fundable; Career Ready isn't. So, yes, there are options out there, but because we're so focused on qualifications and we will only fund qualifications, that drives certain behaviours, and I think you need as a committee to be very much aware of that.

Yes, but that was very useful information for us, because bearing in mind what Nick Brazil said—that the vision of this was created as almost something that could have the status of something like a Duke of Edinburgh award without necessarily being a compulsory qualification; what was important was that the learners got the skills. However, if getting the qualification is how you get the money, then you can see why schools—well, and indeed colleges—might be tempted to go for it. So, thank you for that. Diolch.


Yes, but that was very useful information for us, because bearing in mind what Nick Brazil said—that the vision of this was created as almost something that could have the status of something like a Duke of Edinburgh award without necessarily being a compulsory qualification; what was important was that the learners got the skills. However, if getting the qualification is how you get the money, then you can see why schools—well, and indeed colleges—might be tempted to go for it. So, thank you for that. Diolch.

Thank you. Good morning. What are your views on how well the Welsh bac, at all levels, helps to prepare learners for employment? We've spoken to quite a few learners, and again we've had variable opinions coming back, so it's quite how they, from their perspective—.


Yes, but that was very useful information for us, because bearing in mind what Nick Brazil said—that the vision of this was created as almost something that could have the status of something like a Duke of Edinburgh award without necessarily being a compulsory qualification; what was important was that the learners got the skills. However, if getting the qualification is how you get the money, then you can see why schools—well, and indeed colleges—might be tempted to go for it. So, thank you for that. Diolch.

Thank you. Good morning. What are your views on how well the Welsh bac, at all levels, helps to prepare learners for employment? We've spoken to quite a few learners, and again we've had variable opinions coming back, so it's quite how they, from their perspective—.

I think that one of the problems is that there are a number of priorities. And one of the problems that we have is that we have a number of children coming in to the colleges, and they need to resit their GCSEs—in maths, English and Welsh. It's a valid priority for the Welsh Government for everyone to get a C grade in the core subjects. But that eats into the time that we have to teach young people. And so there's no room for everything in the curriculum somehow—no room in the funding or also in terms of the time and the capacity of the learner to be able to do that number of qualifications. So, the priorities, I think, across the sector—. We've given priority to GCSE resits rather than doing the Welsh bac at present. So, at levels 1 and 2, there are fewer and fewer doing 1 and 2 in the baccalaureate because they're resitting their GCSEs, and there is much more use of the Welsh bac at level 3, and A-level, and vocational level 3.


Thank you. Good morning. What are your views on how well the Welsh bac, at all levels, helps to prepare learners for employment? We've spoken to quite a few learners, and again we've had variable opinions coming back, so it's quite how they, from their perspective—.

I think that one of the problems is that there are a number of priorities. And one of the problems that we have is that we have a number of children coming in to the colleges, and they need to resit their GCSEs—in maths, English and Welsh. It's a valid priority for the Welsh Government for everyone to get a C grade in the core subjects. But that eats into the time that we have to teach young people. And so there's no room for everything in the curriculum somehow—no room in the funding or also in terms of the time and the capacity of the learner to be able to do that number of qualifications. So, the priorities, I think, across the sector—. We've given priority to GCSE resits rather than doing the Welsh bac at present. So, at levels 1 and 2, there are fewer and fewer doing 1 and 2 in the baccalaureate because they're resitting their GCSEs, and there is much more use of the Welsh bac at level 3, and A-level, and vocational level 3.


Thank you. Good morning. What are your views on how well the Welsh bac, at all levels, helps to prepare learners for employment? We've spoken to quite a few learners, and again we've had variable opinions coming back, so it's quite how they, from their perspective—.

I think that one of the problems is that there are a number of priorities. And one of the problems that we have is that we have a number of children coming in to the colleges, and they need to resit their GCSEs—in maths, English and Welsh. It's a valid priority for the Welsh Government for everyone to get a C grade in the core subjects. But that eats into the time that we have to teach young people. And so there's no room for everything in the curriculum somehow—no room in the funding or also in terms of the time and the capacity of the learner to be able to do that number of qualifications. So, the priorities, I think, across the sector—. We've given priority to GCSE resits rather than doing the Welsh bac at present. So, at levels 1 and 2, there are fewer and fewer doing 1 and 2 in the baccalaureate because they're resitting their GCSEs, and there is much more use of the Welsh bac at level 3, and A-level, and vocational level 3.

Can I just add to that? I think, again, there's a misconception. The Welsh bac is a combination of qualifications; it's not just one qualification—it's a combination. So, to develop the employability skills obviously is a key part, and developing the skills for employment is a key part. But when you are focused, if you are a learner, on developing or achieving certain qualifications to make up the Welsh bac—for example, resits, your main qualification, plus your work for the Welsh bac, which is the skills challenge certificate as well—that's a huge amount of work. And, obviously, when you're trying to achieve outcomes—and we all get funded on the outcomes—that becomes the priority, and sometimes then we lose the focus on the skills, which are ultimately what were supposed to be part of the development for employability. So, I think people lose the fact that the Welsh bac is a combination of things. And I think it was interesting, the comment that was made about the Duke of Edinburgh—I thought that's something that we need to think about.


I think that one of the problems is that there are a number of priorities. And one of the problems that we have is that we have a number of children coming in to the colleges, and they need to resit their GCSEs—in maths, English and Welsh. It's a valid priority for the Welsh Government for everyone to get a C grade in the core subjects. But that eats into the time that we have to teach young people. And so there's no room for everything in the curriculum somehow—no room in the funding or also in terms of the time and the capacity of the learner to be able to do that number of qualifications. So, the priorities, I think, across the sector—. We've given priority to GCSE resits rather than doing the Welsh bac at present. So, at levels 1 and 2, there are fewer and fewer doing 1 and 2 in the baccalaureate because they're resitting their GCSEs, and there is much more use of the Welsh bac at level 3, and A-level, and vocational level 3.

Can I just add to that? I think, again, there's a misconception. The Welsh bac is a combination of qualifications; it's not just one qualification—it's a combination. So, to develop the employability skills obviously is a key part, and developing the skills for employment is a key part. But when you are focused, if you are a learner, on developing or achieving certain qualifications to make up the Welsh bac—for example, resits, your main qualification, plus your work for the Welsh bac, which is the skills challenge certificate as well—that's a huge amount of work. And, obviously, when you're trying to achieve outcomes—and we all get funded on the outcomes—that becomes the priority, and sometimes then we lose the focus on the skills, which are ultimately what were supposed to be part of the development for employability. So, I think people lose the fact that the Welsh bac is a combination of things. And I think it was interesting, the comment that was made about the Duke of Edinburgh—I thought that's something that we need to think about.

If I could just say as well, our job in the college is to develop skills and employable people, and we use every tool in our box to do that. And, as I said earlier, there are lots of things that we do. The Welsh bac, where it works really well, does help prepare them, I think, for employment, but it's not for everyone, because some people have to do the other things. Some people doing the equivalent of three A-levels, even in a vocational programme, it's too big for them. As you say, they're coming from schools, some of them with very few GCSEs, or they haven't got literacy and numeracy skills, they're being tested and many of them are below level 1 in terms of literacy and numeracy. So, I think it needs to be reviewed, to look at how we could make skilled and employable people. It helps prepare some people—the A-level students for university—but does it help my health and social care people become more skilled and employable? No, it doesn't.


Can I just add to that? I think, again, there's a misconception. The Welsh bac is a combination of qualifications; it's not just one qualification—it's a combination. So, to develop the employability skills obviously is a key part, and developing the skills for employment is a key part. But when you are focused, if you are a learner, on developing or achieving certain qualifications to make up the Welsh bac—for example, resits, your main qualification, plus your work for the Welsh bac, which is the skills challenge certificate as well—that's a huge amount of work. And, obviously, when you're trying to achieve outcomes—and we all get funded on the outcomes—that becomes the priority, and sometimes then we lose the focus on the skills, which are ultimately what were supposed to be part of the development for employability. So, I think people lose the fact that the Welsh bac is a combination of things. And I think it was interesting, the comment that was made about the Duke of Edinburgh—I thought that's something that we need to think about.

If I could just say as well, our job in the college is to develop skills and employable people, and we use every tool in our box to do that. And, as I said earlier, there are lots of things that we do. The Welsh bac, where it works really well, does help prepare them, I think, for employment, but it's not for everyone, because some people have to do the other things. Some people doing the equivalent of three A-levels, even in a vocational programme, it's too big for them. As you say, they're coming from schools, some of them with very few GCSEs, or they haven't got literacy and numeracy skills, they're being tested and many of them are below level 1 in terms of literacy and numeracy. So, I think it needs to be reviewed, to look at how we could make skilled and employable people. It helps prepare some people—the A-level students for university—but does it help my health and social care people become more skilled and employable? No, it doesn't.


Can I just add to that? I think, again, there's a misconception. The Welsh bac is a combination of qualifications; it's not just one qualification—it's a combination. So, to develop the employability skills obviously is a key part, and developing the skills for employment is a key part. But when you are focused, if you are a learner, on developing or achieving certain qualifications to make up the Welsh bac—for example, resits, your main qualification, plus your work for the Welsh bac, which is the skills challenge certificate as well—that's a huge amount of work. And, obviously, when you're trying to achieve outcomes—and we all get funded on the outcomes—that becomes the priority, and sometimes then we lose the focus on the skills, which are ultimately what were supposed to be part of the development for employability. So, I think people lose the fact that the Welsh bac is a combination of things. And I think it was interesting, the comment that was made about the Duke of Edinburgh—I thought that's something that we need to think about.

If I could just say as well, our job in the college is to develop skills and employable people, and we use every tool in our box to do that. And, as I said earlier, there are lots of things that we do. The Welsh bac, where it works really well, does help prepare them, I think, for employment, but it's not for everyone, because some people have to do the other things. Some people doing the equivalent of three A-levels, even in a vocational programme, it's too big for them. As you say, they're coming from schools, some of them with very few GCSEs, or they haven't got literacy and numeracy skills, they're being tested and many of them are below level 1 in terms of literacy and numeracy. So, I think it needs to be reviewed, to look at how we could make skilled and employable people. It helps prepare some people—the A-level students for university—but does it help my health and social care people become more skilled and employable? No, it doesn't.

And this, ultimately, has to be about what's in the best interests of learners, and a one-size-fits-all approach isn't going to work.


If I could just say as well, our job in the college is to develop skills and employable people, and we use every tool in our box to do that. And, as I said earlier, there are lots of things that we do. The Welsh bac, where it works really well, does help prepare them, I think, for employment, but it's not for everyone, because some people have to do the other things. Some people doing the equivalent of three A-levels, even in a vocational programme, it's too big for them. As you say, they're coming from schools, some of them with very few GCSEs, or they haven't got literacy and numeracy skills, they're being tested and many of them are below level 1 in terms of literacy and numeracy. So, I think it needs to be reviewed, to look at how we could make skilled and employable people. It helps prepare some people—the A-level students for university—but does it help my health and social care people become more skilled and employable? No, it doesn't.

And this, ultimately, has to be about what's in the best interests of learners, and a one-size-fits-all approach isn't going to work.

Thank you. Is there a difference in how the Welsh bac is valued by learners at the different levels that it is studied? ColegauCymru said that learners may have had a negative experience of the Welsh bac in previous study.


And this, ultimately, has to be about what's in the best interests of learners, and a one-size-fits-all approach isn't going to work.

Thank you. Is there a difference in how the Welsh bac is valued by learners at the different levels that it is studied? ColegauCymru said that learners may have had a negative experience of the Welsh bac in previous study.

That's been a new dimension lately, I think, in that, when the Welsh bac first hit FE, we were leading the way—


Thank you. Is there a difference in how the Welsh bac is valued by learners at the different levels that it is studied? ColegauCymru said that learners may have had a negative experience of the Welsh bac in previous study.

That's been a new dimension lately, I think, in that, when the Welsh bac first hit FE, we were leading the way—

—and great advocates. By now, of course, they're coming to us having been through a Welsh bac experience at school, and therefore many of the learners feel that there's repeating going on then—'Oh, we've done this at school already. Why are we doing it again at college?' So, I think that's a problem for us as well.


That's been a new dimension lately, I think, in that, when the Welsh bac first hit FE, we were leading the way—

—and great advocates. By now, of course, they're coming to us having been through a Welsh bac experience at school, and therefore many of the learners feel that there's repeating going on then—'Oh, we've done this at school already. Why are we doing it again at college?' So, I think that's a problem for us as well.

Many have experienced a paper-based exercise rather than a real activity. So, at level 1 and level 2, it's not what we would call a crowd puller in colleges, but at level 3 it's more, especially for A-levels, because it can help them get into university, but even for the more able and talented—we were discussing this, weren't we? We have learners who do four A-levels, but they don't do the Welsh baccalaureate because they're part of the Seren network, and they are going to be applying for Oxbridge or high-level Russell Group universities. So, the Welsh bac, although it's technically universally adopted by universities, it isn't adopted by every admissions tutor in every university. So, to get into some areas, like dentistry, for example, and some of the other Seren-type activities, four A-levels is better. But in most colleges that have A-level students it's almost compulsory to do the Welsh bac as well, but normally that would be three A-levels and the Welsh bac—normally.


—and great advocates. By now, of course, they're coming to us having been through a Welsh bac experience at school, and therefore many of the learners feel that there's repeating going on then—'Oh, we've done this at school already. Why are we doing it again at college?' So, I think that's a problem for us as well.

Many have experienced a paper-based exercise rather than a real activity. So, at level 1 and level 2, it's not what we would call a crowd puller in colleges, but at level 3 it's more, especially for A-levels, because it can help them get into university, but even for the more able and talented—we were discussing this, weren't we? We have learners who do four A-levels, but they don't do the Welsh baccalaureate because they're part of the Seren network, and they are going to be applying for Oxbridge or high-level Russell Group universities. So, the Welsh bac, although it's technically universally adopted by universities, it isn't adopted by every admissions tutor in every university. So, to get into some areas, like dentistry, for example, and some of the other Seren-type activities, four A-levels is better. But in most colleges that have A-level students it's almost compulsory to do the Welsh bac as well, but normally that would be three A-levels and the Welsh bac—normally.

Okay. And then ColegauCymru say that, increasingly, the Welsh bac is not being offered at post-16 national and foundation level. So, are the different levels of the Welsh bac valued differently by further education professionals?


Many have experienced a paper-based exercise rather than a real activity. So, at level 1 and level 2, it's not what we would call a crowd puller in colleges, but at level 3 it's more, especially for A-levels, because it can help them get into university, but even for the more able and talented—we were discussing this, weren't we? We have learners who do four A-levels, but they don't do the Welsh baccalaureate because they're part of the Seren network, and they are going to be applying for Oxbridge or high-level Russell Group universities. So, the Welsh bac, although it's technically universally adopted by universities, it isn't adopted by every admissions tutor in every university. So, to get into some areas, like dentistry, for example, and some of the other Seren-type activities, four A-levels is better. But in most colleges that have A-level students it's almost compulsory to do the Welsh bac as well, but normally that would be three A-levels and the Welsh bac—normally.

Okay. And then ColegauCymru say that, increasingly, the Welsh bac is not being offered at post-16 national and foundation level. So, are the different levels of the Welsh bac valued differently by further education professionals?


Okay. And then ColegauCymru say that, increasingly, the Welsh bac is not being offered at post-16 national and foundation level. So, are the different levels of the Welsh bac valued differently by further education professionals?


I think we've got to bear in mind when the students come to us—certainly when they're level 1, level 2 learners—that a number of them have come from school and probably not done as well as they'd hoped at their GCSEs. Okay, they've come to us, they're trying to build themselves back up, build their skills back up, and adding another qualification on top, adding the Welsh bac on top, whether that's foundation or national, on top of what they have to do, which is a programme they've come and decided to do—think of the pressure that increases upon them. Plus the fact is that they are resitting; they're probably having to resit GCSE English and maths as well. That's a huge volume of work for a learner who's probably come from a low base to begin with and who hasn't achieved what they wanted to. The whole idea when we bring them in at that level is that we want to build their confidence, build them up and, hopefully, eventually they will go to the stage where maybe the Welsh bac will be beneficial to them, when they've potentially hopefully progressed to level 3. But I think it's questionable, certainly at national and foundation. And the important point that Dafydd raised was that there's a lot of repetition there in school, pre 16 to post 16 at those levels as well. So, learners don't come in banging at the door saying, 'We want to do the Welsh bac because it's exactly the same or very similar to what we did when we were in school.' They want to see some difference, they want to see some progress, and that's not necessarily the case in the foundation and national levels.


I think we've got to bear in mind when the students come to us—certainly when they're level 1, level 2 learners—that a number of them have come from school and probably not done as well as they'd hoped at their GCSEs. Okay, they've come to us, they're trying to build themselves back up, build their skills back up, and adding another qualification on top, adding the Welsh bac on top, whether that's foundation or national, on top of what they have to do, which is a programme they've come and decided to do—think of the pressure that increases upon them. Plus the fact is that they are resitting; they're probably having to resit GCSE English and maths as well. That's a huge volume of work for a learner who's probably come from a low base to begin with and who hasn't achieved what they wanted to. The whole idea when we bring them in at that level is that we want to build their confidence, build them up and, hopefully, eventually they will go to the stage where maybe the Welsh bac will be beneficial to them, when they've potentially hopefully progressed to level 3. But I think it's questionable, certainly at national and foundation. And the important point that Dafydd raised was that there's a lot of repetition there in school, pre 16 to post 16 at those levels as well. So, learners don't come in banging at the door saying, 'We want to do the Welsh bac because it's exactly the same or very similar to what we did when we were in school.' They want to see some difference, they want to see some progress, and that's not necessarily the case in the foundation and national levels.

And we know that delivery in schools is of variable quality, so obviously that impacts on how learners have experienced it and perhaps how they view it when they get to FE college.


I think we've got to bear in mind when the students come to us—certainly when they're level 1, level 2 learners—that a number of them have come from school and probably not done as well as they'd hoped at their GCSEs. Okay, they've come to us, they're trying to build themselves back up, build their skills back up, and adding another qualification on top, adding the Welsh bac on top, whether that's foundation or national, on top of what they have to do, which is a programme they've come and decided to do—think of the pressure that increases upon them. Plus the fact is that they are resitting; they're probably having to resit GCSE English and maths as well. That's a huge volume of work for a learner who's probably come from a low base to begin with and who hasn't achieved what they wanted to. The whole idea when we bring them in at that level is that we want to build their confidence, build them up and, hopefully, eventually they will go to the stage where maybe the Welsh bac will be beneficial to them, when they've potentially hopefully progressed to level 3. But I think it's questionable, certainly at national and foundation. And the important point that Dafydd raised was that there's a lot of repetition there in school, pre 16 to post 16 at those levels as well. So, learners don't come in banging at the door saying, 'We want to do the Welsh bac because it's exactly the same or very similar to what we did when we were in school.' They want to see some difference, they want to see some progress, and that's not necessarily the case in the foundation and national levels.

And we know that delivery in schools is of variable quality, so obviously that impacts on how learners have experienced it and perhaps how they view it when they get to FE college.

Okay. A question, then, just to ColegauCymru: to what extent do you believe that universities in the main understand the value of the Welsh bac?


I think we've got to bear in mind when the students come to us—certainly when they're level 1, level 2 learners—that a number of them have come from school and probably not done as well as they'd hoped at their GCSEs. Okay, they've come to us, they're trying to build themselves back up, build their skills back up, and adding another qualification on top, adding the Welsh bac on top, whether that's foundation or national, on top of what they have to do, which is a programme they've come and decided to do—think of the pressure that increases upon them. Plus the fact is that they are resitting; they're probably having to resit GCSE English and maths as well. That's a huge volume of work for a learner who's probably come from a low base to begin with and who hasn't achieved what they wanted to. The whole idea when we bring them in at that level is that we want to build their confidence, build them up and, hopefully, eventually they will go to the stage where maybe the Welsh bac will be beneficial to them, when they've potentially hopefully progressed to level 3. But I think it's questionable, certainly at national and foundation. And the important point that Dafydd raised was that there's a lot of repetition there in school, pre 16 to post 16 at those levels as well. So, learners don't come in banging at the door saying, 'We want to do the Welsh bac because it's exactly the same or very similar to what we did when we were in school.' They want to see some difference, they want to see some progress, and that's not necessarily the case in the foundation and national levels.

And we know that delivery in schools is of variable quality, so obviously that impacts on how learners have experienced it and perhaps how they view it when they get to FE college.

Okay. A question, then, just to ColegauCymru: to what extent do you believe that universities in the main understand the value of the Welsh bac?

Well, we don't think they do, really, especially the experience we have with some of our learners to go to Russell Group universities. They do allow sometimes that you can drop a grade. I talked earlier about my own daughter who was allowed to drop a grade in order to get into a Russell Group university because she had the Welsh bac as well, but it was a very paper-based exercise. But I think it is mixed, and it does depend on the admissions tutors and the areas that they're going into in universities. In some areas, and certainly the local universities around here—University of South Wales, Cardiff Metropolitan University—value it in a great number of subjects, particularly in sport, when our students go to Cardiff Met, and business studies, when our learners go to USW. It is valued by them and they accept it, but when people go further afield—and we're always trying to push our learners beyond. Where they can afford to go away to university, we encourage that. But some of the universities are not valuing the Welsh baccalaureate.


And we know that delivery in schools is of variable quality, so obviously that impacts on how learners have experienced it and perhaps how they view it when they get to FE college.

Okay. A question, then, just to ColegauCymru: to what extent do you believe that universities in the main understand the value of the Welsh bac?

Well, we don't think they do, really, especially the experience we have with some of our learners to go to Russell Group universities. They do allow sometimes that you can drop a grade. I talked earlier about my own daughter who was allowed to drop a grade in order to get into a Russell Group university because she had the Welsh bac as well, but it was a very paper-based exercise. But I think it is mixed, and it does depend on the admissions tutors and the areas that they're going into in universities. In some areas, and certainly the local universities around here—University of South Wales, Cardiff Metropolitan University—value it in a great number of subjects, particularly in sport, when our students go to Cardiff Met, and business studies, when our learners go to USW. It is valued by them and they accept it, but when people go further afield—and we're always trying to push our learners beyond. Where they can afford to go away to university, we encourage that. But some of the universities are not valuing the Welsh baccalaureate.


Okay. A question, then, just to ColegauCymru: to what extent do you believe that universities in the main understand the value of the Welsh bac?

Well, we don't think they do, really, especially the experience we have with some of our learners to go to Russell Group universities. They do allow sometimes that you can drop a grade. I talked earlier about my own daughter who was allowed to drop a grade in order to get into a Russell Group university because she had the Welsh bac as well, but it was a very paper-based exercise. But I think it is mixed, and it does depend on the admissions tutors and the areas that they're going into in universities. In some areas, and certainly the local universities around here—University of South Wales, Cardiff Metropolitan University—value it in a great number of subjects, particularly in sport, when our students go to Cardiff Met, and business studies, when our learners go to USW. It is valued by them and they accept it, but when people go further afield—and we're always trying to push our learners beyond. Where they can afford to go away to university, we encourage that. But some of the universities are not valuing the Welsh baccalaureate.

Yes. You didn't mention Cardiff University there.


Well, we don't think they do, really, especially the experience we have with some of our learners to go to Russell Group universities. They do allow sometimes that you can drop a grade. I talked earlier about my own daughter who was allowed to drop a grade in order to get into a Russell Group university because she had the Welsh bac as well, but it was a very paper-based exercise. But I think it is mixed, and it does depend on the admissions tutors and the areas that they're going into in universities. In some areas, and certainly the local universities around here—University of South Wales, Cardiff Metropolitan University—value it in a great number of subjects, particularly in sport, when our students go to Cardiff Met, and business studies, when our learners go to USW. It is valued by them and they accept it, but when people go further afield—and we're always trying to push our learners beyond. Where they can afford to go away to university, we encourage that. But some of the universities are not valuing the Welsh baccalaureate.

Yes. You didn't mention Cardiff University there.

Cardiff University—yes. My daughter's example—that was Cardiff University. So, they do, especially now it's graded at level 3. Then they do accept it. A great number of our learners get into Cardiff using the Welsh baccalaureate, but would their admissions tutors prefer four A-levels? Absolutely.


Yes. You didn't mention Cardiff University there.

Cardiff University—yes. My daughter's example—that was Cardiff University. So, they do, especially now it's graded at level 3. Then they do accept it. A great number of our learners get into Cardiff using the Welsh baccalaureate, but would their admissions tutors prefer four A-levels? Absolutely.

Could I jump in there? I've got to jump in there as, from the institution I'm in, we've had a long track record of getting learners into top universities. About 20 per cent of our learners go to Russell Group universities, and there is no doubt—in certainly 50 per cent of those, they do not value the Welsh bac. But if they do offer an option with the Welsh bac, they say it is on top of three A2-level grades. So, obviously, we've had that track record. I think the Seren programme that's been put in by the Welsh Government is looking to increase the numbers applying to top universities and top courses, but you look through the range, particularly in science, technology, engineering and mathematics subjects as well, across a number and range of universities, the Welsh bac is always added as the additional one. So, bear in mind, then, that Welsh students are fighting for places against Scottish, Northern Irish and, potentially, English students who are studying three subjects, whereas our Welsh students potentially could be doing three A2s, three A-level subjects plus the Welsh bac. And, as we talked about earlier on, the Welsh bac has evolved into quite a rigorous, you could say complicated, qualification, which puts added pressure on a learner in year 2 when they're trying to get possibly three A* grades. So, I think we need to consider that. In relation to the first answer, it is variable, and the admissions tutors throughout a lot of universities will make different decisions, and also make the decision dependent on whether it's a facilitating subject or an enabling subject, which the Russell Group report indicates about facilitating subjects, and Welsh bac at the moment is not a facilitating subject.


Cardiff University—yes. My daughter's example—that was Cardiff University. So, they do, especially now it's graded at level 3. Then they do accept it. A great number of our learners get into Cardiff using the Welsh baccalaureate, but would their admissions tutors prefer four A-levels? Absolutely.

Could I jump in there? I've got to jump in there as, from the institution I'm in, we've had a long track record of getting learners into top universities. About 20 per cent of our learners go to Russell Group universities, and there is no doubt—in certainly 50 per cent of those, they do not value the Welsh bac. But if they do offer an option with the Welsh bac, they say it is on top of three A2-level grades. So, obviously, we've had that track record. I think the Seren programme that's been put in by the Welsh Government is looking to increase the numbers applying to top universities and top courses, but you look through the range, particularly in science, technology, engineering and mathematics subjects as well, across a number and range of universities, the Welsh bac is always added as the additional one. So, bear in mind, then, that Welsh students are fighting for places against Scottish, Northern Irish and, potentially, English students who are studying three subjects, whereas our Welsh students potentially could be doing three A2s, three A-level subjects plus the Welsh bac. And, as we talked about earlier on, the Welsh bac has evolved into quite a rigorous, you could say complicated, qualification, which puts added pressure on a learner in year 2 when they're trying to get possibly three A* grades. So, I think we need to consider that. In relation to the first answer, it is variable, and the admissions tutors throughout a lot of universities will make different decisions, and also make the decision dependent on whether it's a facilitating subject or an enabling subject, which the Russell Group report indicates about facilitating subjects, and Welsh bac at the moment is not a facilitating subject.

Maybe Dafydd can give us the picture from north Wales.


Could I jump in there? I've got to jump in there as, from the institution I'm in, we've had a long track record of getting learners into top universities. About 20 per cent of our learners go to Russell Group universities, and there is no doubt—in certainly 50 per cent of those, they do not value the Welsh bac. But if they do offer an option with the Welsh bac, they say it is on top of three A2-level grades. So, obviously, we've had that track record. I think the Seren programme that's been put in by the Welsh Government is looking to increase the numbers applying to top universities and top courses, but you look through the range, particularly in science, technology, engineering and mathematics subjects as well, across a number and range of universities, the Welsh bac is always added as the additional one. So, bear in mind, then, that Welsh students are fighting for places against Scottish, Northern Irish and, potentially, English students who are studying three subjects, whereas our Welsh students potentially could be doing three A2s, three A-level subjects plus the Welsh bac. And, as we talked about earlier on, the Welsh bac has evolved into quite a rigorous, you could say complicated, qualification, which puts added pressure on a learner in year 2 when they're trying to get possibly three A* grades. So, I think we need to consider that. In relation to the first answer, it is variable, and the admissions tutors throughout a lot of universities will make different decisions, and also make the decision dependent on whether it's a facilitating subject or an enabling subject, which the Russell Group report indicates about facilitating subjects, and Welsh bac at the moment is not a facilitating subject.

Maybe Dafydd can give us the picture from north Wales.

I mentioned before coming in, in terms of the context—. Because of the nature of our catchment area, there is a greater percentage of our students staying in Welsh universities, and, as Kay said, Welsh universities are much more willing to recognise the bac. So, to a certain extent, it is less of a problem. But, naturally, we do have students who are looking to go out to universities in England in the Russell Group, and we're having the same experience there where there are differences between the policy that that university extols and what actually happens on the ground when students have interviews in those universities.


Maybe Dafydd can give us the picture from north Wales.

I mentioned before coming in, in terms of the context—. Because of the nature of our catchment area, there is a greater percentage of our students staying in Welsh universities, and, as Kay said, Welsh universities are much more willing to recognise the bac. So, to a certain extent, it is less of a problem. But, naturally, we do have students who are looking to go out to universities in England in the Russell Group, and we're having the same experience there where there are differences between the policy that that university extols and what actually happens on the ground when students have interviews in those universities.

But in terms of Bangor and Glyndŵr University, there's no problem there, though.


I mentioned before coming in, in terms of the context—. Because of the nature of our catchment area, there is a greater percentage of our students staying in Welsh universities, and, as Kay said, Welsh universities are much more willing to recognise the bac. So, to a certain extent, it is less of a problem. But, naturally, we do have students who are looking to go out to universities in England in the Russell Group, and we're having the same experience there where there are differences between the policy that that university extols and what actually happens on the ground when students have interviews in those universities.

But in terms of Bangor and Glyndŵr University, there's no problem there, though.

Thank you. Right, the next questions are from Julie Morgan.


But in terms of Bangor and Glyndŵr University, there's no problem there, though.

Thank you. Right, the next questions are from Julie Morgan.

Thank you, Chair. Good morning. I think you've already got into this bit of the discussion, but what are your views on how comparable the Welsh bac is to other qualifications? I don't know if you've got any more comments on that.


Thank you. Right, the next questions are from Julie Morgan.

Thank you, Chair. Good morning. I think you've already got into this bit of the discussion, but what are your views on how comparable the Welsh bac is to other qualifications? I don't know if you've got any more comments on that.

Well, obviously, as we noted, it's become a very rigorous, very large qualification. Actually, it's probably larger than an A-level by now. And, therefore, regarding the rigour and so forth, that's absolutely fine, but I think one of the problems that you're hearing is that perhaps the Welsh bac is trying to be all things to all men. At one end of the spectrum it's trying to be a rigorous qualification that stands up to a Russell university's expectations, and on the other hand, it's trying to develop softer skills and employment skills for people going into work from a vocational area. Can the same product deliver those two outcomes? I'm certainly not sure, and perhaps we need to think: what are we trying to achieve with this qualification?


Thank you, Chair. Good morning. I think you've already got into this bit of the discussion, but what are your views on how comparable the Welsh bac is to other qualifications? I don't know if you've got any more comments on that.

Well, obviously, as we noted, it's become a very rigorous, very large qualification. Actually, it's probably larger than an A-level by now. And, therefore, regarding the rigour and so forth, that's absolutely fine, but I think one of the problems that you're hearing is that perhaps the Welsh bac is trying to be all things to all men. At one end of the spectrum it's trying to be a rigorous qualification that stands up to a Russell university's expectations, and on the other hand, it's trying to develop softer skills and employment skills for people going into work from a vocational area. Can the same product deliver those two outcomes? I'm certainly not sure, and perhaps we need to think: what are we trying to achieve with this qualification?

Yes, and earlier, we talked as well about that difference for the A-level students. They know what it is. It's worth UCAS points. For the vocational students, some things like the Career Ready programme, which is used in other colleges, and WorldSkills, you know, where all colleges have really been pushing to get more learners into WorldSkills at national and international level. And for some of our learners, particularly if we take our engineering learners, then having somebody who has competed in Europe as a tiler or an electrician would, I think, make an employer think, 'I'd better look at this person', whereas the other one has done the Welsh bac—. I think they would look at the WorldSkills person first. And the investment we have to put into WorldSkills is huge. So, for some of our learners, we choose that you do WorldSkills, because that is going to be more valuable for you as a skill, and to show to an employer how much extra time you've put in. So, they put a lot of time—you know, to get somebody into a WorldSkills competition is not just a couple of hours a week, it isn't just the normal curriculum—they have extra time. They are more able and talented vocational learners, and that is more valuable to those learners and I think it's more valid for employers than the Welsh baccalaureate.


Well, obviously, as we noted, it's become a very rigorous, very large qualification. Actually, it's probably larger than an A-level by now. And, therefore, regarding the rigour and so forth, that's absolutely fine, but I think one of the problems that you're hearing is that perhaps the Welsh bac is trying to be all things to all men. At one end of the spectrum it's trying to be a rigorous qualification that stands up to a Russell university's expectations, and on the other hand, it's trying to develop softer skills and employment skills for people going into work from a vocational area. Can the same product deliver those two outcomes? I'm certainly not sure, and perhaps we need to think: what are we trying to achieve with this qualification?

Yes, and earlier, we talked as well about that difference for the A-level students. They know what it is. It's worth UCAS points. For the vocational students, some things like the Career Ready programme, which is used in other colleges, and WorldSkills, you know, where all colleges have really been pushing to get more learners into WorldSkills at national and international level. And for some of our learners, particularly if we take our engineering learners, then having somebody who has competed in Europe as a tiler or an electrician would, I think, make an employer think, 'I'd better look at this person', whereas the other one has done the Welsh bac—. I think they would look at the WorldSkills person first. And the investment we have to put into WorldSkills is huge. So, for some of our learners, we choose that you do WorldSkills, because that is going to be more valuable for you as a skill, and to show to an employer how much extra time you've put in. So, they put a lot of time—you know, to get somebody into a WorldSkills competition is not just a couple of hours a week, it isn't just the normal curriculum—they have extra time. They are more able and talented vocational learners, and that is more valuable to those learners and I think it's more valid for employers than the Welsh baccalaureate.

I think it's got to, extending on what Kay says—. It's got to be—. You know, it is comparable, as long as it's right for that learner's future. If it's right for the learner's future, absolutely it's comparable. But if a learner wants to go into a particular sector and the Welsh bac is not accepted, it's not comparable. But, then, if it is into a certain sector and the skills are being developed in the right manner for that sector, absolutely. But it's got to be right for the learner.


Yes, and earlier, we talked as well about that difference for the A-level students. They know what it is. It's worth UCAS points. For the vocational students, some things like the Career Ready programme, which is used in other colleges, and WorldSkills, you know, where all colleges have really been pushing to get more learners into WorldSkills at national and international level. And for some of our learners, particularly if we take our engineering learners, then having somebody who has competed in Europe as a tiler or an electrician would, I think, make an employer think, 'I'd better look at this person', whereas the other one has done the Welsh bac—. I think they would look at the WorldSkills person first. And the investment we have to put into WorldSkills is huge. So, for some of our learners, we choose that you do WorldSkills, because that is going to be more valuable for you as a skill, and to show to an employer how much extra time you've put in. So, they put a lot of time—you know, to get somebody into a WorldSkills competition is not just a couple of hours a week, it isn't just the normal curriculum—they have extra time. They are more able and talented vocational learners, and that is more valuable to those learners and I think it's more valid for employers than the Welsh baccalaureate.

I think it's got to, extending on what Kay says—. It's got to be—. You know, it is comparable, as long as it's right for that learner's future. If it's right for the learner's future, absolutely it's comparable. But if a learner wants to go into a particular sector and the Welsh bac is not accepted, it's not comparable. But, then, if it is into a certain sector and the skills are being developed in the right manner for that sector, absolutely. But it's got to be right for the learner.

What are the reasons why some colleges do see it as being rigorous and others don't? Why does the view vary?


Yes, and earlier, we talked as well about that difference for the A-level students. They know what it is. It's worth UCAS points. For the vocational students, some things like the Career Ready programme, which is used in other colleges, and WorldSkills, you know, where all colleges have really been pushing to get more learners into WorldSkills at national and international level. And for some of our learners, particularly if we take our engineering learners, then having somebody who has competed in Europe as a tiler or an electrician would, I think, make an employer think, 'I'd better look at this person', whereas the other one has done the Welsh bac—. I think they would look at the WorldSkills person first. And the investment we have to put into WorldSkills is huge. So, for some of our learners, we choose that you do WorldSkills, because that is going to be more valuable for you as a skill, and to show to an employer how much extra time you've put in. So, they put a lot of time—you know, to get somebody into a WorldSkills competition is not just a couple of hours a week, it isn't just the normal curriculum—they have extra time. They are more able and talented vocational learners, and that is more valuable to those learners and I think it's more valid for employers than the Welsh baccalaureate.

I think it's got to, extending on what Kay says—. It's got to be—. You know, it is comparable, as long as it's right for that learner's future. If it's right for the learner's future, absolutely it's comparable. But if a learner wants to go into a particular sector and the Welsh bac is not accepted, it's not comparable. But, then, if it is into a certain sector and the skills are being developed in the right manner for that sector, absolutely. But it's got to be right for the learner.

What are the reasons why some colleges do see it as being rigorous and others don't? Why does the view vary?

Can I give perhaps an employer's perspective on that, which might be completely wrong, but it's been interesting listening to what's been said here? About a year ago, we bought the WJEC in to speak to our employers, or a number of them, just to explain to them what the Welsh bac was about—back to listening and about understanding, really, and it just was not there at all. I could see that most of the employers there were really impressed with it once they understood what it was about and they saw the opportunities at a whole host of levels. We've kind of gone into an university discussion here, but there are school leavers leaving at 16 or 18. The skills that they bring having gone through this process I think most of the employers could get, at least in my sector, they could understand—'I can see what that person can do.' But we've also seen it from university-educated people as well. They are a little bit too focused on the academic side of things. Those that bring a little bit of world experience, a little bit of the Welsh bac-type of things, just become far more rounded and useful people. I can understand why there's a certain obsession, almost, with the academic side of it, but I think we lose that vocational bit at our peril, and to a certain extent we probably haven't got it in many quarters anyway. So, for me, the Welsh bac helps to build that. Call it something else maybe, but that's what it should do.


I think it's got to, extending on what Kay says—. It's got to be—. You know, it is comparable, as long as it's right for that learner's future. If it's right for the learner's future, absolutely it's comparable. But if a learner wants to go into a particular sector and the Welsh bac is not accepted, it's not comparable. But, then, if it is into a certain sector and the skills are being developed in the right manner for that sector, absolutely. But it's got to be right for the learner.

What are the reasons why some colleges do see it as being rigorous and others don't? Why does the view vary?

Can I give perhaps an employer's perspective on that, which might be completely wrong, but it's been interesting listening to what's been said here? About a year ago, we bought the WJEC in to speak to our employers, or a number of them, just to explain to them what the Welsh bac was about—back to listening and about understanding, really, and it just was not there at all. I could see that most of the employers there were really impressed with it once they understood what it was about and they saw the opportunities at a whole host of levels. We've kind of gone into an university discussion here, but there are school leavers leaving at 16 or 18. The skills that they bring having gone through this process I think most of the employers could get, at least in my sector, they could understand—'I can see what that person can do.' But we've also seen it from university-educated people as well. They are a little bit too focused on the academic side of things. Those that bring a little bit of world experience, a little bit of the Welsh bac-type of things, just become far more rounded and useful people. I can understand why there's a certain obsession, almost, with the academic side of it, but I think we lose that vocational bit at our peril, and to a certain extent we probably haven't got it in many quarters anyway. So, for me, the Welsh bac helps to build that. Call it something else maybe, but that's what it should do.

Right. And those skills that are learnt in the Welsh bac, can they be learnt in any of the other qualifications? Because I know that Cambridge university said to us they thought, in the four A-levels that they asked for, that those skills were there.


What are the reasons why some colleges do see it as being rigorous and others don't? Why does the view vary?

Can I give perhaps an employer's perspective on that, which might be completely wrong, but it's been interesting listening to what's been said here? About a year ago, we bought the WJEC in to speak to our employers, or a number of them, just to explain to them what the Welsh bac was about—back to listening and about understanding, really, and it just was not there at all. I could see that most of the employers there were really impressed with it once they understood what it was about and they saw the opportunities at a whole host of levels. We've kind of gone into an university discussion here, but there are school leavers leaving at 16 or 18. The skills that they bring having gone through this process I think most of the employers could get, at least in my sector, they could understand—'I can see what that person can do.' But we've also seen it from university-educated people as well. They are a little bit too focused on the academic side of things. Those that bring a little bit of world experience, a little bit of the Welsh bac-type of things, just become far more rounded and useful people. I can understand why there's a certain obsession, almost, with the academic side of it, but I think we lose that vocational bit at our peril, and to a certain extent we probably haven't got it in many quarters anyway. So, for me, the Welsh bac helps to build that. Call it something else maybe, but that's what it should do.

Right. And those skills that are learnt in the Welsh bac, can they be learnt in any of the other qualifications? Because I know that Cambridge university said to us they thought, in the four A-levels that they asked for, that those skills were there.

It probably depends on the subjects that people are studying and the combination of subjects and the institution. Generally, in college, even if they're doing A-levels, they go out on some community projects or work-related education, without the Welsh bac—even if they're not doing that. So, it does depend on the subject, I think.


Can I give perhaps an employer's perspective on that, which might be completely wrong, but it's been interesting listening to what's been said here? About a year ago, we bought the WJEC in to speak to our employers, or a number of them, just to explain to them what the Welsh bac was about—back to listening and about understanding, really, and it just was not there at all. I could see that most of the employers there were really impressed with it once they understood what it was about and they saw the opportunities at a whole host of levels. We've kind of gone into an university discussion here, but there are school leavers leaving at 16 or 18. The skills that they bring having gone through this process I think most of the employers could get, at least in my sector, they could understand—'I can see what that person can do.' But we've also seen it from university-educated people as well. They are a little bit too focused on the academic side of things. Those that bring a little bit of world experience, a little bit of the Welsh bac-type of things, just become far more rounded and useful people. I can understand why there's a certain obsession, almost, with the academic side of it, but I think we lose that vocational bit at our peril, and to a certain extent we probably haven't got it in many quarters anyway. So, for me, the Welsh bac helps to build that. Call it something else maybe, but that's what it should do.

Right. And those skills that are learnt in the Welsh bac, can they be learnt in any of the other qualifications? Because I know that Cambridge university said to us they thought, in the four A-levels that they asked for, that those skills were there.

It probably depends on the subjects that people are studying and the combination of subjects and the institution. Generally, in college, even if they're doing A-levels, they go out on some community projects or work-related education, without the Welsh bac—even if they're not doing that. So, it does depend on the subject, I think.

I think there's a real danger of us perhaps becoming overly critical here as well of the Welsh bac in terms of—I don't think it's perfect by a long way, however, learners are getting some value out of that process. Certain learners in departments where they have really worked hard to contextualise the Welsh bac within the vocational area, within the A-level subjects that the learners are doing, are finding it very rewarding. So, there are some very positive things coming out there. I think what we're suggesting is there may be even better ways of doing it and better ways of explaining to people what it's about.


Right. And those skills that are learnt in the Welsh bac, can they be learnt in any of the other qualifications? Because I know that Cambridge university said to us they thought, in the four A-levels that they asked for, that those skills were there.

It probably depends on the subjects that people are studying and the combination of subjects and the institution. Generally, in college, even if they're doing A-levels, they go out on some community projects or work-related education, without the Welsh bac—even if they're not doing that. So, it does depend on the subject, I think.

I think there's a real danger of us perhaps becoming overly critical here as well of the Welsh bac in terms of—I don't think it's perfect by a long way, however, learners are getting some value out of that process. Certain learners in departments where they have really worked hard to contextualise the Welsh bac within the vocational area, within the A-level subjects that the learners are doing, are finding it very rewarding. So, there are some very positive things coming out there. I think what we're suggesting is there may be even better ways of doing it and better ways of explaining to people what it's about.

On this point about the skills being developed, I think that's debatable if all the skills that are supposed to be developed in the Welsh bac are being developed, and that's why I think there's a need to relook at it to make sure those skills are being developed fully. But I will go back to the point that I think a comparable qualification is comparable as long as it achieves the right outcome for that particular learner. If you force a learner to do something that is not necessarily going to achieve the outcome that they require in their future, is it the right thing to be doing for that learner? That's what my concern is.


It probably depends on the subjects that people are studying and the combination of subjects and the institution. Generally, in college, even if they're doing A-levels, they go out on some community projects or work-related education, without the Welsh bac—even if they're not doing that. So, it does depend on the subject, I think.

I think there's a real danger of us perhaps becoming overly critical here as well of the Welsh bac in terms of—I don't think it's perfect by a long way, however, learners are getting some value out of that process. Certain learners in departments where they have really worked hard to contextualise the Welsh bac within the vocational area, within the A-level subjects that the learners are doing, are finding it very rewarding. So, there are some very positive things coming out there. I think what we're suggesting is there may be even better ways of doing it and better ways of explaining to people what it's about.

On this point about the skills being developed, I think that's debatable if all the skills that are supposed to be developed in the Welsh bac are being developed, and that's why I think there's a need to relook at it to make sure those skills are being developed fully. But I will go back to the point that I think a comparable qualification is comparable as long as it achieves the right outcome for that particular learner. If you force a learner to do something that is not necessarily going to achieve the outcome that they require in their future, is it the right thing to be doing for that learner? That's what my concern is.

I think the baccalaureate approach is best at producing independent, inquiry-based learners who have the skills to look to teachers not as sources of information but just for guidance. That whole sort of approach about creating inquisitive young people with the skills that we've discussed, that's a real positive. The chances are that we've lost some of that by trying to fit it into being a specific qualification. The approach is a positive one.


I think there's a real danger of us perhaps becoming overly critical here as well of the Welsh bac in terms of—I don't think it's perfect by a long way, however, learners are getting some value out of that process. Certain learners in departments where they have really worked hard to contextualise the Welsh bac within the vocational area, within the A-level subjects that the learners are doing, are finding it very rewarding. So, there are some very positive things coming out there. I think what we're suggesting is there may be even better ways of doing it and better ways of explaining to people what it's about.

On this point about the skills being developed, I think that's debatable if all the skills that are supposed to be developed in the Welsh bac are being developed, and that's why I think there's a need to relook at it to make sure those skills are being developed fully. But I will go back to the point that I think a comparable qualification is comparable as long as it achieves the right outcome for that particular learner. If you force a learner to do something that is not necessarily going to achieve the outcome that they require in their future, is it the right thing to be doing for that learner? That's what my concern is.

I think the baccalaureate approach is best at producing independent, inquiry-based learners who have the skills to look to teachers not as sources of information but just for guidance. That whole sort of approach about creating inquisitive young people with the skills that we've discussed, that's a real positive. The chances are that we've lost some of that by trying to fit it into being a specific qualification. The approach is a positive one.


On this point about the skills being developed, I think that's debatable if all the skills that are supposed to be developed in the Welsh bac are being developed, and that's why I think there's a need to relook at it to make sure those skills are being developed fully. But I will go back to the point that I think a comparable qualification is comparable as long as it achieves the right outcome for that particular learner. If you force a learner to do something that is not necessarily going to achieve the outcome that they require in their future, is it the right thing to be doing for that learner? That's what my concern is.

I think the baccalaureate approach is best at producing independent, inquiry-based learners who have the skills to look to teachers not as sources of information but just for guidance. That whole sort of approach about creating inquisitive young people with the skills that we've discussed, that's a real positive. The chances are that we've lost some of that by trying to fit it into being a specific qualification. The approach is a positive one.

Yes, to both Rachel Bowen and Nick Brazil, if you don't mind. Both of you mentioned this is about skills and a piece of paper that demonstrates that you have these skills. At pre 16, would it be fair to say that there have been occasions when people have come presenting those pieces of paper but actually show none of the skills that they were supposed to have? The reason I'm asking this question, having had children who've gone through the process myself, is that in some schools, and I'm not saying all, doing the bac is something that everybody does in the last four weeks of term, and that undermines the whole idea of the bac anyway. It's just not fair on the learners or the people teaching the bac. Is that a fair observation?


I think the baccalaureate approach is best at producing independent, inquiry-based learners who have the skills to look to teachers not as sources of information but just for guidance. That whole sort of approach about creating inquisitive young people with the skills that we've discussed, that's a real positive. The chances are that we've lost some of that by trying to fit it into being a specific qualification. The approach is a positive one.

Yes, to both Rachel Bowen and Nick Brazil, if you don't mind. Both of you mentioned this is about skills and a piece of paper that demonstrates that you have these skills. At pre 16, would it be fair to say that there have been occasions when people have come presenting those pieces of paper but actually show none of the skills that they were supposed to have? The reason I'm asking this question, having had children who've gone through the process myself, is that in some schools, and I'm not saying all, doing the bac is something that everybody does in the last four weeks of term, and that undermines the whole idea of the bac anyway. It's just not fair on the learners or the people teaching the bac. Is that a fair observation?

I think it's perfectly possible for learners to reach FE college having attained the Welsh bac under the process that you've described, and without necessarily having gone through the holistic inquiry-based independent skills that we would want to see.


Yes, to both Rachel Bowen and Nick Brazil, if you don't mind. Both of you mentioned this is about skills and a piece of paper that demonstrates that you have these skills. At pre 16, would it be fair to say that there have been occasions when people have come presenting those pieces of paper but actually show none of the skills that they were supposed to have? The reason I'm asking this question, having had children who've gone through the process myself, is that in some schools, and I'm not saying all, doing the bac is something that everybody does in the last four weeks of term, and that undermines the whole idea of the bac anyway. It's just not fair on the learners or the people teaching the bac. Is that a fair observation?

I think it's perfectly possible for learners to reach FE college having attained the Welsh bac under the process that you've described, and without necessarily having gone through the holistic inquiry-based independent skills that we would want to see.

Yes, and at interview process or during an interview, or in the first week, you can see that they haven't developed those skills, and I think it is down to the variable models that have been put in place. There are lots of different models, and if you put, as I said, the model that you've described in place, there is no way, in that period of time, you're going to develop those skills. But that indicates, again, the value that people are putting on the qualification, if they are squeezing it into three or four weeks of term.


Yes, to both Rachel Bowen and Nick Brazil, if you don't mind. Both of you mentioned this is about skills and a piece of paper that demonstrates that you have these skills. At pre 16, would it be fair to say that there have been occasions when people have come presenting those pieces of paper but actually show none of the skills that they were supposed to have? The reason I'm asking this question, having had children who've gone through the process myself, is that in some schools, and I'm not saying all, doing the bac is something that everybody does in the last four weeks of term, and that undermines the whole idea of the bac anyway. It's just not fair on the learners or the people teaching the bac. Is that a fair observation?

I think it's perfectly possible for learners to reach FE college having attained the Welsh bac under the process that you've described, and without necessarily having gone through the holistic inquiry-based independent skills that we would want to see.

Yes, and at interview process or during an interview, or in the first week, you can see that they haven't developed those skills, and I think it is down to the variable models that have been put in place. There are lots of different models, and if you put, as I said, the model that you've described in place, there is no way, in that period of time, you're going to develop those skills. But that indicates, again, the value that people are putting on the qualification, if they are squeezing it into three or four weeks of term.

Yes. It might be different post 16—I accept that. Okay. Thank you.


I think it's perfectly possible for learners to reach FE college having attained the Welsh bac under the process that you've described, and without necessarily having gone through the holistic inquiry-based independent skills that we would want to see.

Yes, and at interview process or during an interview, or in the first week, you can see that they haven't developed those skills, and I think it is down to the variable models that have been put in place. There are lots of different models, and if you put, as I said, the model that you've described in place, there is no way, in that period of time, you're going to develop those skills. But that indicates, again, the value that people are putting on the qualification, if they are squeezing it into three or four weeks of term.

Yes. It might be different post 16—I accept that. Okay. Thank you.

And obviously practice will differ across schools.


Yes, and at interview process or during an interview, or in the first week, you can see that they haven't developed those skills, and I think it is down to the variable models that have been put in place. There are lots of different models, and if you put, as I said, the model that you've described in place, there is no way, in that period of time, you're going to develop those skills. But that indicates, again, the value that people are putting on the qualification, if they are squeezing it into three or four weeks of term.

Yes. It might be different post 16—I accept that. Okay. Thank you.

And obviously practice will differ across schools.


Yes. It might be different post 16—I accept that. Okay. Thank you.

And obviously practice will differ across schools.


And obviously practice will differ across schools.

We've got some questions now then, from Suzy, on universal adoption.


We've got some questions now then, from Suzy, on universal adoption.

Well, I'm wondering if I need to ask them, really, because I think I'm getting a strong sense that you all think that universal adoption is a bad idea at this moment in time. However, I do want to test something, because we have had witnesses who say that it would be a good idea because it reduces the amount of competition and advantage that certain institutions have. So, for example, we had an indication from the union representing Welsh-speaking teachers that if the baccalaureate was universally adopted, it would remove an artificial choice, basically, for learners, i.e. they were losing Welsh-speaking students who didn't want to do the bac to English-speaking institutions. So, I wonder if you could tell me how much the decision in your individual colleges not to offer bac is down to the opportunity that it presents you to attract students, particularly from sixth forms, where students may be obliged to do the bac.


We've got some questions now then, from Suzy, on universal adoption.

Well, I'm wondering if I need to ask them, really, because I think I'm getting a strong sense that you all think that universal adoption is a bad idea at this moment in time. However, I do want to test something, because we have had witnesses who say that it would be a good idea because it reduces the amount of competition and advantage that certain institutions have. So, for example, we had an indication from the union representing Welsh-speaking teachers that if the baccalaureate was universally adopted, it would remove an artificial choice, basically, for learners, i.e. they were losing Welsh-speaking students who didn't want to do the bac to English-speaking institutions. So, I wonder if you could tell me how much the decision in your individual colleges not to offer bac is down to the opportunity that it presents you to attract students, particularly from sixth forms, where students may be obliged to do the bac.

That is not the case, I would say. When a learner comes to us, we—. I'd like to think that all the staff in all the colleges do what is in the best interests of the learner. In some cases, it's to go back to school, and we absolutely say, 'You need to go back to school.' If somebody comes from a Welsh-medium school, then usually I will speak to the head and make sure that we have a programme in place, that either they're studying their programme bilingually or through the medium of Welsh, or that we make sure that they absolutely keep their Welsh language skills. We don't say, 'Come to us and you don't have to do the Welsh bac,' because if they do A-levels, we say it's compulsory, unless you're in the Seren group.


We've got some questions now then, from Suzy, on universal adoption.

Well, I'm wondering if I need to ask them, really, because I think I'm getting a strong sense that you all think that universal adoption is a bad idea at this moment in time. However, I do want to test something, because we have had witnesses who say that it would be a good idea because it reduces the amount of competition and advantage that certain institutions have. So, for example, we had an indication from the union representing Welsh-speaking teachers that if the baccalaureate was universally adopted, it would remove an artificial choice, basically, for learners, i.e. they were losing Welsh-speaking students who didn't want to do the bac to English-speaking institutions. So, I wonder if you could tell me how much the decision in your individual colleges not to offer bac is down to the opportunity that it presents you to attract students, particularly from sixth forms, where students may be obliged to do the bac.

That is not the case, I would say. When a learner comes to us, we—. I'd like to think that all the staff in all the colleges do what is in the best interests of the learner. In some cases, it's to go back to school, and we absolutely say, 'You need to go back to school.' If somebody comes from a Welsh-medium school, then usually I will speak to the head and make sure that we have a programme in place, that either they're studying their programme bilingually or through the medium of Welsh, or that we make sure that they absolutely keep their Welsh language skills. We don't say, 'Come to us and you don't have to do the Welsh bac,' because if they do A-levels, we say it's compulsory, unless you're in the Seren group.

Yes. Well, that's the point; it's about English-speaking students, not just Welsh—.


Well, I'm wondering if I need to ask them, really, because I think I'm getting a strong sense that you all think that universal adoption is a bad idea at this moment in time. However, I do want to test something, because we have had witnesses who say that it would be a good idea because it reduces the amount of competition and advantage that certain institutions have. So, for example, we had an indication from the union representing Welsh-speaking teachers that if the baccalaureate was universally adopted, it would remove an artificial choice, basically, for learners, i.e. they were losing Welsh-speaking students who didn't want to do the bac to English-speaking institutions. So, I wonder if you could tell me how much the decision in your individual colleges not to offer bac is down to the opportunity that it presents you to attract students, particularly from sixth forms, where students may be obliged to do the bac.

That is not the case, I would say. When a learner comes to us, we—. I'd like to think that all the staff in all the colleges do what is in the best interests of the learner. In some cases, it's to go back to school, and we absolutely say, 'You need to go back to school.' If somebody comes from a Welsh-medium school, then usually I will speak to the head and make sure that we have a programme in place, that either they're studying their programme bilingually or through the medium of Welsh, or that we make sure that they absolutely keep their Welsh language skills. We don't say, 'Come to us and you don't have to do the Welsh bac,' because if they do A-levels, we say it's compulsory, unless you're in the Seren group.

Yes. Well, that's the point; it's about English-speaking students, not just Welsh—.

No, it isn't used. In the majority of colleges across Wales, it is absolutely not used as a recruitment tool, because most of us, as you see, we value the Welsh bac. We'd like some changes to the Welsh bac, but we value the Welsh bac in many cases. So, we wouldn't deliberately—. I mean, if a course in my college doesn't want to do the Welsh bac, they have to come and give me evidence about why they don't think it's fit and what they're going to do in place of it. So, we don't deliberately tell people, 'Come on in and you won't have to do it.'


That is not the case, I would say. When a learner comes to us, we—. I'd like to think that all the staff in all the colleges do what is in the best interests of the learner. In some cases, it's to go back to school, and we absolutely say, 'You need to go back to school.' If somebody comes from a Welsh-medium school, then usually I will speak to the head and make sure that we have a programme in place, that either they're studying their programme bilingually or through the medium of Welsh, or that we make sure that they absolutely keep their Welsh language skills. We don't say, 'Come to us and you don't have to do the Welsh bac,' because if they do A-levels, we say it's compulsory, unless you're in the Seren group.

Yes. Well, that's the point; it's about English-speaking students, not just Welsh—.

No, it isn't used. In the majority of colleges across Wales, it is absolutely not used as a recruitment tool, because most of us, as you see, we value the Welsh bac. We'd like some changes to the Welsh bac, but we value the Welsh bac in many cases. So, we wouldn't deliberately—. I mean, if a course in my college doesn't want to do the Welsh bac, they have to come and give me evidence about why they don't think it's fit and what they're going to do in place of it. So, we don't deliberately tell people, 'Come on in and you won't have to do it.'

Okay, can I run that across you all, in an outburst of honesty?


Yes. Well, that's the point; it's about English-speaking students, not just Welsh—.

No, it isn't used. In the majority of colleges across Wales, it is absolutely not used as a recruitment tool, because most of us, as you see, we value the Welsh bac. We'd like some changes to the Welsh bac, but we value the Welsh bac in many cases. So, we wouldn't deliberately—. I mean, if a course in my college doesn't want to do the Welsh bac, they have to come and give me evidence about why they don't think it's fit and what they're going to do in place of it. So, we don't deliberately tell people, 'Come on in and you won't have to do it.'

Okay, can I run that across you all, in an outburst of honesty?

Yes, absolutely. We universally adopt at level 3, but we don't at levels 1 and 2.


No, it isn't used. In the majority of colleges across Wales, it is absolutely not used as a recruitment tool, because most of us, as you see, we value the Welsh bac. We'd like some changes to the Welsh bac, but we value the Welsh bac in many cases. So, we wouldn't deliberately—. I mean, if a course in my college doesn't want to do the Welsh bac, they have to come and give me evidence about why they don't think it's fit and what they're going to do in place of it. So, we don't deliberately tell people, 'Come on in and you won't have to do it.'

Okay, can I run that across you all, in an outburst of honesty?

Yes, absolutely. We universally adopt at level 3, but we don't at levels 1 and 2.

Oh, yes, for the reasons you've given in the evidence, actually.


Okay, can I run that across you all, in an outburst of honesty?

Yes, absolutely. We universally adopt at level 3, but we don't at levels 1 and 2.

Oh, yes, for the reasons you've given in the evidence, actually.

Yes, but across the whole of level 3, A-level and vocational, the Welsh bac is an integral part of the curriculum, and it isn't an option for the student to opt out.


Yes, absolutely. We universally adopt at level 3, but we don't at levels 1 and 2.

Oh, yes, for the reasons you've given in the evidence, actually.

Yes, but across the whole of level 3, A-level and vocational, the Welsh bac is an integral part of the curriculum, and it isn't an option for the student to opt out.

Do you let your Seren students opt out like they do in Cardiff and the Vale, or do they have to do it as well?


Oh, yes, for the reasons you've given in the evidence, actually.

Yes, but across the whole of level 3, A-level and vocational, the Welsh bac is an integral part of the curriculum, and it isn't an option for the student to opt out.

Do you let your Seren students opt out like they do in Cardiff and the Vale, or do they have to do it as well?

We've forced—. No, sorry, 'forced' is not the word. [Laughter.] We have encouraged and persuaded everybody to do it.


Yes, but across the whole of level 3, A-level and vocational, the Welsh bac is an integral part of the curriculum, and it isn't an option for the student to opt out.

Do you let your Seren students opt out like they do in Cardiff and the Vale, or do they have to do it as well?

We've forced—. No, sorry, 'forced' is not the word. [Laughter.] We have encouraged and persuaded everybody to do it.

So, that will be four A-levels plus bac.


Do you let your Seren students opt out like they do in Cardiff and the Vale, or do they have to do it as well?

We've forced—. No, sorry, 'forced' is not the word. [Laughter.] We have encouraged and persuaded everybody to do it.

So, that will be four A-levels plus bac.