Um. Uh Miss Industrial Designer , would you like to go first ?

Okay. So are we supposed to bring the little things for the

Yeah , why don't you just c , I think just clip on  clip


Okay. So are we supposed to bring the little things for the

Yeah , why don't you just c , I think just clip on  clip


Yeah , why don't you just c , I think just clip on  clip


Oh my gosh , I'm never gonna be able to draw that well.


Oh my gosh , I'm never gonna be able to draw that well.

'Kay , and you want to write up on there , it says you've gotta sum up your f f your favourite characteristics of that animal.


Oh my gosh , I'm never gonna be able to draw that well.

'Kay , and you want to write up on there , it says you've gotta sum up your f f your favourite characteristics of that animal.

Um  okay , it's big , it's got a great memory.


'Kay , and you want to write up on there , it says you've gotta sum up your f f your favourite characteristics of that animal.

Um  okay , it's big , it's got a great memory.

Supposed to have a great memory , we say an elephant never forgets.


Um  okay , it's big , it's got a great memory.

Supposed to have a great memory , we say an elephant never forgets.


Supposed to have a great memory , we say an elephant never forgets.


Supposed to have a great memory , we say an elephant never forgets.

And uh dunno know why but  looks like nice to me.


And uh dunno know why but  looks like nice to me.


And uh dunno know why but  looks like nice to me.

Do you want to use the wipe  the m the wiper and wipe it off ?


Do you want to use the wipe  the m the wiper and wipe it off ?


Do you want to use the wipe  the m the wiper and wipe it off ?

And Mister aesthetics designer do you wanna go next ?


And Mister aesthetics designer do you wanna go next ?

I have no idea what my favourite animal is.


I have no idea what my favourite animal is.


Dunno if any of you have seen Napoleon Dynamite before.


You have to see it. And and it's best characteristic is it's pretty much the awesomest animal. But you have to see the movie to fully appreciate it.


Okay. Not quite sure how this is gonna work.


Okay. Not quite sure how this is gonna work.

Cool.  Uh  well I'll try my best  to draw. Can I just draw the face ?


Okay. Not quite sure how this is gonna work.

Cool.  Uh  well I'll try my best  to draw. Can I just draw the face ?

Um yeah , I think you can just draw the face , but then you'll have to describe in writing how the rest of it looks.


Cool.  Uh  well I'll try my best  to draw. Can I just draw the face ?

Um yeah , I think you can just draw the face , but then you'll have to describe in writing how the rest of it looks.


Um yeah , I think you can just draw the face , but then you'll have to describe in writing how the rest of it looks.

Which also has what ? A big fat body and big  and a long tail.


Which also has what ? A big fat body and big  and a long tail.


Which also has what ? A big fat body and big  and a long tail.

you wanna just write some words about it ?


you wanna just write some words about it ?

Because um cuddly. And usually cats are very friendly. Usually. And they're healing as well. They heal. And they can feel when a human's got problems so


Because um cuddly. And usually cats are very friendly. Usually. And they're healing as well. They heal. And they can feel when a human's got problems so


Um , I don't actually have a favourite animal ,


Um , I don't actually have a favourite animal ,

but for the for th for this meeting I'll s draw a little


but for the for th for this meeting I'll s draw a little

Uh. I honestly can't draw for toffee. Uh.


Uh. I honestly can't draw for toffee. Uh.


Okay , well , you got it's a s It's a squirrel , and I like them , because they're cute and stupid.


Right. Okay , so , I guess that was the test to see if this equipment is all working.


Right. Okay , so , I guess that was the test to see if this equipment is all working.

Mm. Let's move on to the next page. Okay , project finance , selling price twenty five Euros , profit aim fifty million Euros.


Right. Okay , so , I guess that was the test to see if this equipment is all working.

Mm. Let's move on to the next page. Okay , project finance , selling price twenty five Euros , profit aim fifty million Euros.

Yeah. Production cost , ah right it's gotta be  can't cost any more than twelve fifty to make.


Mm. Let's move on to the next page. Okay , project finance , selling price twenty five Euros , profit aim fifty million Euros.

Yeah. Production cost , ah right it's gotta be  can't cost any more than twelve fifty to make.


Yeah. Production cost , ah right it's gotta be  can't cost any more than twelve fifty to make.

experience with with remote control , so talk about who who's used what. Any ideas ? Stuff like that. Next meeting starts in thirty minutes.  At quarter to twelve.


Yeah. Production cost , ah right it's gotta be  can't cost any more than twelve fifty to make.

experience with with remote control , so talk about who who's used what. Any ideas ? Stuff like that. Next meeting starts in thirty minutes.  At quarter to twelve.

So I think before we close uh , we are expected  I mean the last slide wanted us to maybe discuss longer what our what our ideas where. I mean if you wanna go back to the last slide. Uh


experience with with remote control , so talk about who who's used what. Any ideas ? Stuff like that. Next meeting starts in thirty minutes.  At quarter to twelve.

So I think before we close uh , we are expected  I mean the last slide wanted us to maybe discuss longer what our what our ideas where. I mean if you wanna go back to the last slide. Uh


So I think before we close uh , we are expected  I mean the last slide wanted us to maybe discuss longer what our what our ideas where. I mean if you wanna go back to the last slide. Uh

Yeah , I think we're  I mean before we close the meeting , we're supposed to come up with some ideas for


Yeah , I think we're  I mean before we close the meeting , we're supposed to come up with some ideas for

Oh k so we're actually supposed to be doing this discussion like right now are we or


Oh k so we're actually supposed to be doing this discussion like right now are we or


I thought this was just t giving us instructions for the re to do next , but


I thought this was just t giving us instructions for the re to do next , but

Yeah , I think this is just the preliminary , get some rough ideas for what our experiences with remote controls have been and and what we would  roughly what we would incorporate into a new one maybe.


I thought this was just t giving us instructions for the re to do next , but

Yeah , I think this is just the preliminary , get some rough ideas for what our experiences with remote controls have been and and what we would  roughly what we would incorporate into a new one maybe.

Okay. Right , who's got experiences with remote controls then ? Pretty much everybody.


Yeah , I think this is just the preliminary , get some rough ideas for what our experiences with remote controls have been and and what we would  roughly what we would incorporate into a new one maybe.

Okay. Right , who's got experiences with remote controls then ? Pretty much everybody.


Okay. Right , who's got experiences with remote controls then ? Pretty much everybody.


Is this a T_V_ one we are supposed to make ?


A new remote control for T_V_. What would I like ?  Um.


A new remote control for T_V_. What would I like ?  Um.

W what  You want it big do you want it small. Are we are we going for like like telephones are going little teeny tiny things or we are going for something that's that's big and


A new remote control for T_V_. What would I like ?  Um.

W what  You want it big do you want it small. Are we are we going for like like telephones are going little teeny tiny things or we are going for something that's that's big and

Mm. Yeah it seems like there's like  there's sort of a tension between two ideas , I mean , you want you want one remote that maybe can work uh all all of the functions of T_V_ and if you have whatever associated with T_V_ the D_V_D_ player , or something like that ,


W what  You want it big do you want it small. Are we are we going for like like telephones are going little teeny tiny things or we are going for something that's that's big and

Mm. Yeah it seems like there's like  there's sort of a tension between two ideas , I mean , you want you want one remote that maybe can work uh all all of the functions of T_V_ and if you have whatever associated with T_V_ the D_V_D_ player , or something like that ,


Mm. Yeah it seems like there's like  there's sort of a tension between two ideas , I mean , you want you want one remote that maybe can work uh all all of the functions of T_V_ and if you have whatever associated with T_V_ the D_V_D_ player , or something like that ,

but like at the same time you don't wanna really busy remote with a thousand buttons on it or something.


but like at the same time you don't wanna really busy remote with a thousand buttons on it or something.


but like at the same time you don't wanna really busy remote with a thousand buttons on it or something.

now th that's the other thing is it's gotta be cheap.


now th that's the other thing is it's gotta be cheap.


now th that's the other thing is it's gotta be cheap.

'Cause I I I mean I was thinking something that's got different like maybe a a an L_C_D_ display on it that's got different pages for different devices ,


now th that's the other thing is it's gotta be cheap.

'Cause I I I mean I was thinking something that's got different like maybe a a an L_C_D_ display on it that's got different pages for different devices ,

but that would p that would probably be quite expensive.


'Cause I I I mean I was thinking something that's got different like maybe a a an L_C_D_ display on it that's got different pages for different devices ,

but that would p that would probably be quite expensive.


'Cause I I I mean I was thinking something that's got different like maybe a a an L_C_D_ display on it that's got different pages for different devices ,

but that would p that would probably be quite expensive.

But how do we know how much uh , I mean , how much do we have per  how much ?


but that would p that would probably be quite expensive.

But how do we know how much uh , I mean , how much do we have per  how much ?


But how do we know how much uh , I mean , how much do we have per  how much ?


But how do we know how much uh , I mean , how much do we have per  how much ?

It g can't be more than twelve fifty per unit.


It g can't be more than twelve fifty per unit.


So do we have to be realistic within the budget or


So do we have to be realistic within the budget or

Well at the moment we could , wa I mean we


So do we have to be realistic within the budget or

Well at the moment we could , wa I mean we

Close pr I don't know how much it would cost. Yeah.


Well at the moment we could , wa I mean we

Close pr I don't know how much it would cost. Yeah.

'cause we this is what we th what we're doing at the moment is just saying what what we'd like , and then after we after we've found out what we can like , some different ideas , we can then go and do the research to find out if these  any of these ideas are feasible or not.


Close pr I don't know how much it would cost. Yeah.

'cause we this is what we th what we're doing at the moment is just saying what what we'd like , and then after we after we've found out what we can like , some different ideas , we can then go and do the research to find out if these  any of these ideas are feasible or not.


'cause we this is what we th what we're doing at the moment is just saying what what we'd like , and then after we after we've found out what we can like , some different ideas , we can then go and do the research to find out if these  any of these ideas are feasible or not.

So would be nice to have something that that controls lots of different things.


So would be nice to have something that that controls lots of different things.


So would be nice to have something that that controls lots of different things.

Couldn't we have like one that comes out ?  Like so you have one in like  mm


Couldn't we have like one that comes out ?  Like so you have one in like  mm


Couldn't we have like one that comes out ?  Like so you have one in like  mm

it doesn't have to be really thick. I mean remote controls can be thin bits. And then you have one for your D_V_D_ and you sort of slide it out , and then you have another one , you slide it out.


it doesn't have to be really thick. I mean remote controls can be thin bits. And then you have one for your D_V_D_ and you sort of slide it out , and then you have another one , you slide it out.

have slides. And then it all comes compact


have slides. And then it all comes compact

into one. So it's not  you actually just putting three or four different remotes together but making them thinner , and um into one basically.


into one. So it's not  you actually just putting three or four different remotes together but making them thinner , and um into one basically.


Um  have uh one very complicated one on one side with  all the D_V_D_ and V_C_R_ access and stuff , and then on the other side o  one uh a remote control that would be very very simple with just the channel , program plus and  minus , and the just the mute button , for example. I can real keep it really really simple on one side and the other side be very complicated.


Um  have uh one very complicated one on one side with  all the D_V_D_ and V_C_R_ access and stuff , and then on the other side o  one uh a remote control that would be very very simple with just the channel , program plus and  minus , and the just the mute button , for example. I can real keep it really really simple on one side and the other side be very complicated.

One side for kids , one side for adults.


One side for kids , one side for adults.

Or grandma as well , you know it's like  what is the mute button.


Or grandma as well , you know it's like  what is the mute button.

I'm not sure if it's a good idea to have a two sided remote though , 'cause it would be very hard to use in the way that you mani manipulate it.


Or grandma as well , you know it's like  what is the mute button.

I'm not sure if it's a good idea to have a two sided remote though , 'cause it would be very hard to use in the way that you mani manipulate it.

No , but you would slide it into uh someth like something on the back would hold  like you wouldn't be able to press the buttons , but


I'm not sure if it's a good idea to have a two sided remote though , 'cause it would be very hard to use in the way that you mani manipulate it.

No , but you would slide it into uh someth like something on the back would hold  like you wouldn't be able to press the buttons , but


No , but you would slide it into uh someth like something on the back would hold  like you wouldn't be able to press the buttons , but


or something like a flip telephone , something like that maybe.


or something like a flip telephone , something like that maybe.

F flip it open and you've got all the buttons , or you flip it closed and you've just got the basic buttons on the outside maybe.


F flip it open and you've got all the buttons , or you flip it closed and you've just got the basic buttons on the outside maybe.


Well we've got a k we've got a few ideas there.


Well we've got a k we've got a few ideas there.

I guess by the end of this meeting we should have at least a a rough conception  you know  stage one was technical functions design , what effect the apparatus should have. Okay. Um so I mean we still have time in our next meeting to come up with the actual concept for the user interface , but the the functions that we're sure that we want are that it can control the T_V_ , but also devices connected to the to the T_V_ , I mean , be able to operate


I guess by the end of this meeting we should have at least a a rough conception  you know  stage one was technical functions design , what effect the apparatus should have. Okay. Um so I mean we still have time in our next meeting to come up with the actual concept for the user interface , but the the functions that we're sure that we want are that it can control the T_V_ , but also devices connected to the to the T_V_ , I mean , be able to operate


I guess by the end of this meeting we should have at least a a rough conception  you know  stage one was technical functions design , what effect the apparatus should have. Okay. Um so I mean we still have time in our next meeting to come up with the actual concept for the user interface , but the the functions that we're sure that we want are that it can control the T_V_ , but also devices connected to the to the T_V_ , I mean , be able to operate

I have got  I think we should also have a back-up plan of  I  'cause I I I just think that it might be expensive to make something that  I mean we don't , we haven't been told it has to be something that will control everything. We should have a back-up plan of just a really good television remote control , that just  that is just for a T_V_ , but it's just a really good , nice one.


I have got  I think we should also have a back-up plan of  I  'cause I I I just think that it might be expensive to make something that  I mean we don't , we haven't been told it has to be something that will control everything. We should have a back-up plan of just a really good television remote control , that just  that is just for a T_V_ , but it's just a really good , nice one.


What do you reckon ? See 'cause ,  I'm just thinking  bearing in mind th we've gotta  we have to have something that's cheap to make.


What do you reckon ? See 'cause ,  I'm just thinking  bearing in mind th we've gotta  we have to have something that's cheap to make.

Yeah , I mean . Yeah , that's true , maybe we should just concentrate on having a a good T_V_ remote , and have it be um


What do you reckon ? See 'cause ,  I'm just thinking  bearing in mind th we've gotta  we have to have something that's cheap to make.

Yeah , I mean . Yeah , that's true , maybe we should just concentrate on having a a good T_V_ remote , and have it be um

I think we'll be able to come up with ideas and stuff a lot quicker.


What do you reckon ? See 'cause ,  I'm just thinking  bearing in mind th we've gotta  we have to have something that's cheap to make.

Yeah , I mean . Yeah , that's true , maybe we should just concentrate on having a a good T_V_ remote , and have it be um

I think we'll be able to come up with ideas and stuff a lot quicker.

have it be like ergonomic so it's comfortable to use ,


Yeah , I mean . Yeah , that's true , maybe we should just concentrate on having a a good T_V_ remote , and have it be um

I think we'll be able to come up with ideas and stuff a lot quicker.

have it be like ergonomic so it's comfortable to use ,


I think we'll be able to come up with ideas and stuff a lot quicker.

have it be like ergonomic so it's comfortable to use ,


have it be like ergonomic so it's comfortable to use ,


But what'll make it what'll make it interesting for people to buy though ?


But what'll make it what'll make it interesting for people to buy though ?

Or maybe even so something that's for disabled people


But what'll make it what'll make it interesting for people to buy though ?

Or maybe even so something that's for disabled people

or so people that uh b don't see very well or  big buttons for  touchy buttons for


Or maybe even so something that's for disabled people

or so people that uh b don't see very well or  big buttons for  touchy buttons for

Sorta find a niche for our remote , like market it to a certain kind of p kind of people ,


or so people that uh b don't see very well or  big buttons for  touchy buttons for

Sorta find a niche for our remote , like market it to a certain kind of p kind of people ,


Sorta find a niche for our remote , like market it to a certain kind of p kind of people ,

Or just one that looks really fucking cool.


Or just one that looks really fucking cool.


Or just one that looks really fucking cool.

Could be really light or , I dunno , something special.


Could be really light or , I dunno , something special.

Yeah , no I think you're right. Yeah , rathe rather than focus on


Could be really light or , I dunno , something special.

Yeah , no I think you're right. Yeah , rathe rather than focus on

Otherwise we'll be we'll be here all day talking about  do this let's do that n I think we sh I think we should


Yeah , no I think you're right. Yeah , rathe rather than focus on

Otherwise we'll be we'll be here all day talking about  do this let's do that n I think we sh I think we should

Yeah , 'cause at the end of the day if it says just T_V_ remote , doesn't say com combination with all all the r


Otherwise we'll be we'll be here all day talking about  do this let's do that n I think we sh I think we should

Yeah , 'cause at the end of the day if it says just T_V_ remote , doesn't say com combination with all all the r


Yeah , 'cause at the end of the day if it says just T_V_ remote , doesn't say com combination with all all the r

Yeah. I mean obviously everyone  we're uh you know uh sounds like we're all a bit sort of gadget heads and we like things that do everything at once , but you know , that's


Yeah , 'cause at the end of the day if it says just T_V_ remote , doesn't say com combination with all all the r

Yeah. I mean obviously everyone  we're uh you know uh sounds like we're all a bit sort of gadget heads and we like things that do everything at once , but you know , that's

Remotes spinning out from other remotes and having little nested remotes inside.


Yeah. I mean obviously everyone  we're uh you know uh sounds like we're all a bit sort of gadget heads and we like things that do everything at once , but you know , that's

Remotes spinning out from other remotes and having little nested remotes inside.


Remotes spinning out from other remotes and having little nested remotes inside.

Yeah , that's right. Yeah. I mean I'd like one that makes tea as well , but  that's not gonna happen.


Yeah , that's right. Yeah. I mean I'd like one that makes tea as well , but  that's not gonna happen.

I think a flip up thing , 'cause you always have this problem of like if it's on this  well I did anyway , like we had five or six remotes and they would be lying on the c on the coach , and you'd come and sit down and  ooh , the telephone's  the television switched on or something. So maybe something that like does have a lid or closes , so you don't accidentally press a button or record button for something.


Yeah , that's right. Yeah. I mean I'd like one that makes tea as well , but  that's not gonna happen.

I think a flip up thing , 'cause you always have this problem of like if it's on this  well I did anyway , like we had five or six remotes and they would be lying on the c on the coach , and you'd come and sit down and  ooh , the telephone's  the television switched on or something. So maybe something that like does have a lid or closes , so you don't accidentally press a button or record button for something.

Okay , like a lock f like a lock functs function on it like you have on your telephones , yeah.


Yeah , that's right. Yeah. I mean I'd like one that makes tea as well , but  that's not gonna happen.

I think a flip up thing , 'cause you always have this problem of like if it's on this  well I did anyway , like we had five or six remotes and they would be lying on the c on the coach , and you'd come and sit down and  ooh , the telephone's  the television switched on or something. So maybe something that like does have a lid or closes , so you don't accidentally press a button or record button for something.

Okay , like a lock f like a lock functs function on it like you have on your telephones , yeah.

Yeah. But make it like really snazzy and cool  people will want it. So make it  Yeah.


I think a flip up thing , 'cause you always have this problem of like if it's on this  well I did anyway , like we had five or six remotes and they would be lying on the c on the coach , and you'd come and sit down and  ooh , the telephone's  the television switched on or something. So maybe something that like does have a lid or closes , so you don't accidentally press a button or record button for something.

Okay , like a lock f like a lock functs function on it like you have on your telephones , yeah.

Yeah. But make it like really snazzy and cool  people will want it. So make it  Yeah.


Okay , like a lock f like a lock functs function on it like you have on your telephones , yeah.

Yeah. But make it like really snazzy and cool  people will want it. So make it  Yeah.


Yeah. But make it like really snazzy and cool  people will want it. So make it  Yeah.

Yeah , that's true what you were saying , I mean it doesn't have to have a flip function , it can just have a lock function , so that it's not uh not usable when you don't want it to be usable.


Yeah , that's true what you were saying , I mean it doesn't have to have a flip function , it can just have a lock function , so that it's not uh not usable when you don't want it to be usable.


And even for kids as well. It's um it's safer for them , I guess. Like they don't flick onto channels and all that sl flick onto.


Oops , let's close that. Next meeting , uh okay.


So ne next week we 'll have , uh , both Birger  and , uh , Mike  Michael  Michael Kleinschmidt and Birger Kollmeier will join us.


So ne next week we 'll have , uh , both Birger  and , uh , Mike  Michael  Michael Kleinschmidt and Birger Kollmeier will join us.

Um , and you 're   you 're probably gonna go up in a couple  three weeks or so ? When d when are you thinking of going up to , uh , OGI ?


So ne next week we 'll have , uh , both Birger  and , uh , Mike  Michael  Michael Kleinschmidt and Birger Kollmeier will join us.

Um , and you 're   you 're probably gonna go up in a couple  three weeks or so ? When d when are you thinking of going up to , uh , OGI ?

Yeah , like , uh , not next week but maybe the week after.


Um , and you 're   you 're probably gonna go up in a couple  three weeks or so ? When d when are you thinking of going up to , uh , OGI ?

Yeah , like , uh , not next week but maybe the week after.

OK. Good. So at least we 'll have one meeting with  yo with you still around , and  and


Yeah , like , uh , not next week but maybe the week after.

OK. Good. So at least we 'll have one meeting with  yo with you still around , and  and


OK. Good. So at least we 'll have one meeting with  yo with you still around , and  and

Um , Yeah. Well ,  maybe we can start with this. Mmm.


Um , Yeah. Well ,  maybe we can start with this. Mmm.


Um. Yeah. So there was this conference call this morning , um , and the only topic on the agenda was just to discuss a and to come at  uh , to get a decision about this latency problem.


Um. Yeah. So there was this conference call this morning , um , and the only topic on the agenda was just to discuss a and to come at  uh , to get a decision about this latency problem.

No , this  I 'm sorry , this is a conference call between different Aurora people or just  ?


Um. Yeah. So there was this conference call this morning , um , and the only topic on the agenda was just to discuss a and to come at  uh , to get a decision about this latency problem.

No , this  I 'm sorry , this is a conference call between different Aurora people or just  ?

Uh , yeah. It 's the conference call between the Aurora ,  uh , group.


No , this  I 'm sorry , this is a conference call between different Aurora people or just  ?

Uh , yeah. It 's the conference call between the Aurora ,  uh , group.

Uh , yeah. There were like two hours of  discussions , and then suddenly ,  uh , people were tired , I guess , and they decided on  a number , two hundred and twenty , um , included e including everything. Uh , it means that it 's like eighty milliseconds  less than before.


Uh , yeah. It 's the conference call between the Aurora ,  uh , group.

Uh , yeah. There were like two hours of  discussions , and then suddenly ,  uh , people were tired , I guess , and they decided on  a number , two hundred and twenty , um , included e including everything. Uh , it means that it 's like eighty milliseconds  less than before.


Uh , yeah. There were like two hours of  discussions , and then suddenly ,  uh , people were tired , I guess , and they decided on  a number , two hundred and twenty , um , included e including everything. Uh , it means that it 's like eighty milliseconds  less than before.


So , currently d uh , we have system that has two hundred and thirty. So , that 's fine.


So , currently d uh , we have system that has two hundred and thirty. So , that 's fine.

Yeah. So that 's the system that 's described on the second point of  this  document.


So , currently d uh , we have system that has two hundred and thirty. So , that 's fine.

Yeah. So that 's the system that 's described on the second point of  this  document.

So it 's  we have to reduce it by ten milliseconds somehow.


Yeah. So that 's the system that 's described on the second point of  this  document.

So it 's  we have to reduce it by ten milliseconds somehow.

Yeah. But that 's  Yeah. That 's not a problem , I  I guess.


Yeah. So that 's the system that 's described on the second point of  this  document.

So it 's  we have to reduce it by ten milliseconds somehow.

Yeah. But that 's  Yeah. That 's not a problem , I  I guess.

OK. W It 's  it 's p d primary  primarily determined by the VAD at this point ,


So it 's  we have to reduce it by ten milliseconds somehow.

Yeah. But that 's  Yeah. That 's not a problem , I  I guess.

OK. W It 's  it 's p d primary  primarily determined by the VAD at this point ,


Yeah. But that 's  Yeah. That 's not a problem , I  I guess.

OK. W It 's  it 's p d primary  primarily determined by the VAD at this point ,


OK. W It 's  it 's p d primary  primarily determined by the VAD at this point ,


S so we can make the VAD a little shorter.


Yeah. We probably should do that pretty soon so that we don't get used to it being a certain way.


Well , it was mainly a discussion  between Hari and  David ,


mmm  Uh , yeah. So , the second thing is the system that we have currently. Oh , yes. We have , like , a system that gives sixty - two percent improvement , but  if you want to stick to the   this latency  Well , it has a latency of two thirty , but  if you want also to stick to the number  of features that  limit it to sixty ,  then we go a little bit down but it 's still sixty - one percent. Uh , and if we drop the tandem network , then we have fifty - seven percent.


mmm  Uh , yeah. So , the second thing is the system that we have currently. Oh , yes. We have , like , a system that gives sixty - two percent improvement , but  if you want to stick to the   this latency  Well , it has a latency of two thirty , but  if you want also to stick to the number  of features that  limit it to sixty ,  then we go a little bit down but it 's still sixty - one percent. Uh , and if we drop the tandem network , then we have fifty - seven percent.

Uh , but th the two th two thirty includes the tandem network ?


mmm  Uh , yeah. So , the second thing is the system that we have currently. Oh , yes. We have , like , a system that gives sixty - two percent improvement , but  if you want to stick to the   this latency  Well , it has a latency of two thirty , but  if you want also to stick to the number  of features that  limit it to sixty ,  then we go a little bit down but it 's still sixty - one percent. Uh , and if we drop the tandem network , then we have fifty - seven percent.

Uh , but th the two th two thirty includes the tandem network ?

OK. And i is the tandem network , uh , small enough that it will fit on the terminal size in terms of  ?


Uh , but th the two th two thirty includes the tandem network ?

OK. And i is the tandem network , uh , small enough that it will fit on the terminal size in terms of  ?


OK. And i is the tandem network , uh , small enough that it will fit on the terminal size in terms of  ?


It 's still  in terms of computation , if we use , like , their way of computing the  the maps  the  the MIPs ,  I think it fits ,


It 's still  in terms of computation , if we use , like , their way of computing the  the maps  the  the MIPs ,  I think it fits ,

but it 's , uh , m mainly a problem of memory.


but it 's , uh , m mainly a problem of memory.

Um , and I don't know how much  this can be discussed or not , because it 's  it could be in ROM , so it 's maybe not that expensive. But


Um , and I don't know how much  this can be discussed or not , because it 's  it could be in ROM , so it 's maybe not that expensive. But

I d I d uh , I  I don't kn remember exactly , but   Uh. Yeah , I c I  I have to check that.


Um , and I don't know how much  this can be discussed or not , because it 's  it could be in ROM , so it 's maybe not that expensive. But

I d I d uh , I  I don't kn remember exactly , but   Uh. Yeah , I c I  I have to check that.

Yeah. I 'd like to  see that , cuz maybe I could think a little bit about it , cuz we  maybe we could make it a little smaller or  I mean , it 'd be  it 'd be neat if we could fit it all.


I d I d uh , I  I don't kn remember exactly , but   Uh. Yeah , I c I  I have to check that.

Yeah. I 'd like to  see that , cuz maybe I could think a little bit about it , cuz we  maybe we could make it a little smaller or  I mean , it 'd be  it 'd be neat if we could fit it all.


I d I d uh , I  I don't kn remember exactly , but   Uh. Yeah , I c I  I have to check that.

Yeah. I 'd like to  see that , cuz maybe I could think a little bit about it , cuz we  maybe we could make it a little smaller or  I mean , it 'd be  it 'd be neat if we could fit it all.

Uh , I 'd like to see how far off we are.


Yeah. I 'd like to  see that , cuz maybe I could think a little bit about it , cuz we  maybe we could make it a little smaller or  I mean , it 'd be  it 'd be neat if we could fit it all.

Uh , I 'd like to see how far off we are.


Uh , I 'd like to see how far off we are.

But I guess it 's still within their rules to have  have it on the , uh , t uh , server side. Right ?


But I guess it 's still within their rules to have  have it on the , uh , t uh , server side. Right ?


And this is still  ? Uh , well , y you 're saying here. I c I should just let you go on.


And this is still  ? Uh , well , y you 're saying here. I c I should just let you go on.

Yeah , there were small tricks to make this tandem network work. Uh ,  mmm , and one of the trick was to ,  um , use  some kind of hierarchical structure where  the silence probability is not computed by  the final tandem network but by the VAD network. Um , so apparently it looks better when ,  uh , we use the silence probability from the VAD network


And this is still  ? Uh , well , y you 're saying here. I c I should just let you go on.

Yeah , there were small tricks to make this tandem network work. Uh ,  mmm , and one of the trick was to ,  um , use  some kind of hierarchical structure where  the silence probability is not computed by  the final tandem network but by the VAD network. Um , so apparently it looks better when ,  uh , we use the silence probability from the VAD network

and we re - scale the other probabilities by one minus the silence probability. Um. So it 's some kind of hierarchical thing ,  uh , that Sunil also tried , um ,   on SPINE and apparently it helps a little bit also. Mmm. And. Yeah , the reason w why  why we did that with the silence probability was that ,  um


Yeah , there were small tricks to make this tandem network work. Uh ,  mmm , and one of the trick was to ,  um , use  some kind of hierarchical structure where  the silence probability is not computed by  the final tandem network but by the VAD network. Um , so apparently it looks better when ,  uh , we use the silence probability from the VAD network

and we re - scale the other probabilities by one minus the silence probability. Um. So it 's some kind of hierarchical thing ,  uh , that Sunil also tried , um ,   on SPINE and apparently it helps a little bit also. Mmm. And. Yeah , the reason w why  why we did that with the silence probability was that ,  um

Could  ? Uh , uh , I 'm  I 'm really sorry. Can you repeat what you were saying about the silence probability ?


and we re - scale the other probabilities by one minus the silence probability. Um. So it 's some kind of hierarchical thing ,  uh , that Sunil also tried , um ,   on SPINE and apparently it helps a little bit also. Mmm. And. Yeah , the reason w why  why we did that with the silence probability was that ,  um

Could  ? Uh , uh , I 'm  I 'm really sorry. Can you repeat what you were saying about the silence probability ?


Could  ? Uh , uh , I 'm  I 'm really sorry. Can you repeat what you were saying about the silence probability ?

Yeah. So there is the tandem network that e e e estimates the phone probabilities


Yeah. So there is the tandem network that e e e estimates the phone probabilities


And  things get better when , instead of using the silence probability computed by the tandem network , we use the silence probability , uh , given by the VAD network ,


Which is smaller , but maybe , um  So we have a network for the VAD which has one hundred hidden units , and the tandem network has five hundred. Um. So it 's smaller but th the silence probability  from this network seems , uh , better.


Maybe it 's  has something to do to  the fact that  we don't have infinite training data and


Maybe it 's  has something to do to  the fact that  we don't have infinite training data and

Well ! And so  Well , things are not optimal


Well ! And so  Well , things are not optimal


Well ! And so  Well , things are not optimal

Are you  you were going to say why  what made you  wh what led you to do that.


Are you  you were going to say why  what made you  wh what led you to do that.

Yeah. Uh , there was a p  problem that we observed , um ,   that there was  there were , like , many insertions in the  in the system.


Yeah. Uh , there was a p  problem that we observed , um ,   that there was  there were , like , many insertions in the  in the system.


Actually plugging in the tandem network was increasing , I  I  I think , the number of insertions.


Actually plugging in the tandem network was increasing , I  I  I think , the number of insertions.

And ,  um  So it looked strange and then just using the  the other silence probability helps. Mmm. Um  Yeah. The next thing we will do is train this tandem on more data.


Actually plugging in the tandem network was increasing , I  I  I think , the number of insertions.

And ,  um  So it looked strange and then just using the  the other silence probability helps. Mmm. Um  Yeah. The next thing we will do is train this tandem on more data.

So , you know , in a way what it might  i it 's  it 's a little bit like  combining knowledge sources.


And ,  um  So it looked strange and then just using the  the other silence probability helps. Mmm. Um  Yeah. The next thing we will do is train this tandem on more data.

So , you know , in a way what it might  i it 's  it 's a little bit like  combining knowledge sources.


And ,  um  So it looked strange and then just using the  the other silence probability helps. Mmm. Um  Yeah. The next thing we will do is train this tandem on more data.

So , you know , in a way what it might  i it 's  it 's a little bit like  combining knowledge sources.

Right ? Because  the fact that you have these two nets that are different sizes  means they behave a little differently ,


So , you know , in a way what it might  i it 's  it 's a little bit like  combining knowledge sources.

Right ? Because  the fact that you have these two nets that are different sizes  means they behave a little differently ,


Right ? Because  the fact that you have these two nets that are different sizes  means they behave a little differently ,

they find different  things. And , um , if you have , um  f the distribution that you have from , uh , f speech sounds is w  sort of one source of knowledge.


they find different  things. And , um , if you have , um  f the distribution that you have from , uh , f speech sounds is w  sort of one source of knowledge.

And this is  and rather than just taking one minus that to get the other , which is essentially what 's happening , you have this other source of knowledge that you 're putting in there. So you make use of both of them  in  in  what you 're ending up with. Maybe it 's better.


And this is  and rather than just taking one minus that to get the other , which is essentially what 's happening , you have this other source of knowledge that you 're putting in there. So you make use of both of them  in  in  what you 're ending up with. Maybe it 's better.

Anyway , you can probably justify anything if what 's use


Anyway , you can probably justify anything if what 's use


Anyway , you can probably justify anything if what 's use

And  and the features are different also. I mean , the VAD doesn't use the same features there are.


And  and the features are different also. I mean , the VAD doesn't use the same features there are.


Cuz you were really thinking about speech versus nonspeech for that.


Cuz you were really thinking about speech versus nonspeech for that.

Mmm. Uh. Well , there are other things that  we should do but ,  um ,  it requires time and   We have ideas , like  so , these things are like hav having a better VAD. Uh , we have some ideas about that. It would   probably implies working a little bit on features that are more  suited to a voice activity detection.


Mmm. Uh. Well , there are other things that  we should do but ,  um ,  it requires time and   We have ideas , like  so , these things are like hav having a better VAD. Uh , we have some ideas about that. It would   probably implies working a little bit on features that are more  suited to a voice activity detection.


Mmm. Uh. Well , there are other things that  we should do but ,  um ,  it requires time and   We have ideas , like  so , these things are like hav having a better VAD. Uh , we have some ideas about that. It would   probably implies working a little bit on features that are more  suited to a voice activity detection.

Working on the second stream. Of course we have ideas on this also , but   w we need to try different things and  Uh , but their noise estimation , um   uh


Mmm. Uh. Well , there are other things that  we should do but ,  um ,  it requires time and   We have ideas , like  so , these things are like hav having a better VAD. Uh , we have some ideas about that. It would   probably implies working a little bit on features that are more  suited to a voice activity detection.

Working on the second stream. Of course we have ideas on this also , but   w we need to try different things and  Uh , but their noise estimation , um   uh

I mean , back on the second stream , I mean , that 's something we 've talked about for a while. I mean , I think  that 's certainly a high hope.


Working on the second stream. Of course we have ideas on this also , but   w we need to try different things and  Uh , but their noise estimation , um   uh

I mean , back on the second stream , I mean , that 's something we 've talked about for a while. I mean , I think  that 's certainly a high hope.


Working on the second stream. Of course we have ideas on this also , but   w we need to try different things and  Uh , but their noise estimation , um   uh

I mean , back on the second stream , I mean , that 's something we 've talked about for a while. I mean , I think  that 's certainly a high hope.

Um , so we have this  this default idea about just using some sort of purely spectral thing ?


I mean , back on the second stream , I mean , that 's something we 've talked about for a while. I mean , I think  that 's certainly a high hope.

Um , so we have this  this default idea about just using some sort of purely spectral thing ?


Um , so we have this  this default idea about just using some sort of purely spectral thing ?


Um , so we have this  this default idea about just using some sort of purely spectral thing ?

But , um , we  we did a first try with this , and it  it  clearly hurts.


But , um , we  we did a first try with this , and it  it  clearly hurts.

But , uh , how was the stream combined ?


But , um , we  we did a first try with this , and it  it  clearly hurts.

But , uh , how was the stream combined ?

Uh.  It was c it was just combined , um , by the acoustic model. So there was , no neural network for the moment.


But , um , we  we did a first try with this , and it  it  clearly hurts.

But , uh , how was the stream combined ?

Uh.  It was c it was just combined , um , by the acoustic model. So there was , no neural network for the moment.

Right. So , I mean , if you just had a second stream that was just spectral and had another neural net and combined there , that  that , uh ,  might be good.


But , uh , how was the stream combined ?

Uh.  It was c it was just combined , um , by the acoustic model. So there was , no neural network for the moment.

Right. So , I mean , if you just had a second stream that was just spectral and had another neural net and combined there , that  that , uh ,  might be good.

Mm - hmm. Yeah. Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. Mmm. Yeah. Um  Yeah , and the other thing , that noise estimation and th um , maybe try to train  uh , the training data for the t tandem network , right now , is like  i is using the noises from the Aurora task and   I think that people might ,  um , try to argue about that because  then in some cases we have the same noises in  for training the network  than the noises that are used for testing ,


Uh.  It was c it was just combined , um , by the acoustic model. So there was , no neural network for the moment.

Right. So , I mean , if you just had a second stream that was just spectral and had another neural net and combined there , that  that , uh ,  might be good.

Mm - hmm. Yeah. Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. Mmm. Yeah. Um  Yeah , and the other thing , that noise estimation and th um , maybe try to train  uh , the training data for the t tandem network , right now , is like  i is using the noises from the Aurora task and   I think that people might ,  um , try to argue about that because  then in some cases we have the same noises in  for training the network  than the noises that are used for testing ,


Right. So , I mean , if you just had a second stream that was just spectral and had another neural net and combined there , that  that , uh ,  might be good.

Mm - hmm. Yeah. Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. Mmm. Yeah. Um  Yeah , and the other thing , that noise estimation and th um , maybe try to train  uh , the training data for the t tandem network , right now , is like  i is using the noises from the Aurora task and   I think that people might ,  um , try to argue about that because  then in some cases we have the same noises in  for training the network  than the noises that are used for testing ,

and  So we have t n uh , to try to get rid of these   this problem.


Mm - hmm. Yeah. Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. Mmm. Yeah. Um  Yeah , and the other thing , that noise estimation and th um , maybe try to train  uh , the training data for the t tandem network , right now , is like  i is using the noises from the Aurora task and   I think that people might ,  um , try to argue about that because  then in some cases we have the same noises in  for training the network  than the noises that are used for testing ,

and  So we have t n uh , to try to get rid of these   this problem.

Yeah. Maybe you just put in some other noise , something that 's different.


and  So we have t n uh , to try to get rid of these   this problem.

Yeah. Maybe you just put in some other noise , something that 's different.


and  So we have t n uh , to try to get rid of these   this problem.

Yeah. Maybe you just put in some other noise , something that 's different.

I mean , it  it 's probably helpful to have  have a little noise there. But it may be something else


Yeah. Maybe you just put in some other noise , something that 's different.

I mean , it  it 's probably helpful to have  have a little noise there. But it may be something else


I mean , it  it 's probably helpful to have  have a little noise there. But it may be something else


And then  if it doesn't hurt too much , though.


And then  if it doesn't hurt too much , though.

Um. Yeah. The last thing is that I think we are getting close to human performance. Well , that 's something I would like to investigate further , but , um , I did , like , um  I did , uh , listen to the m most noisy utterances of the SpeechDat - Car Italian and tried to transcribe them. And , um


Um. Yeah. The last thing is that I think we are getting close to human performance. Well , that 's something I would like to investigate further , but , um , I did , like , um  I did , uh , listen to the m most noisy utterances of the SpeechDat - Car Italian and tried to transcribe them. And , um

So this is a particular human. This is  this i this is Stephane.


So this is a particular human. This is  this i this is Stephane.


that 's the  the flaw of the experiment. This is just  i j    it 's just one subject ,


that 's the  the flaw of the experiment. This is just  i j    it 's just one subject ,

but  but still , uh ,  what happens is  is that ,  uh , the digit error rate on this is around one percent ,


but  but still , uh ,  what happens is  is that ,  uh , the digit error rate on this is around one percent ,


but  but still , uh ,  what happens is  is that ,  uh , the digit error rate on this is around one percent ,

while our system is currently at seven percent. Um , but what happens also is that if I listen to the , um   a re - synthesized version of the speech and  I re - synthesized this using a white noise that 's filtered by a LPC , uh , filter


while our system is currently at seven percent. Um , but what happens also is that if I listen to the , um   a re - synthesized version of the speech and  I re - synthesized this using a white noise that 's filtered by a LPC , uh , filter

Um , well , you can argue , that , uh  that this is not speech ,


Um , well , you can argue , that , uh  that this is not speech ,

so the ear is not trained to recognize this. But s actually it sound like  whispering , so we are


so the ear is not trained to recognize this. But s actually it sound like  whispering , so we are


so the ear is not trained to recognize this. But s actually it sound like  whispering , so we are

There 's two problems there. I mean  I mean , so  so the first is  that by doing LPC - twelve with synthesized speech w like you 're saying , uh , it 's   i i you 're  you 're adding other degradation.


There 's two problems there. I mean  I mean , so  so the first is  that by doing LPC - twelve with synthesized speech w like you 're saying , uh , it 's   i i you 're  you 're adding other degradation.


There 's two problems there. I mean  I mean , so  so the first is  that by doing LPC - twelve with synthesized speech w like you 're saying , uh , it 's   i i you 're  you 're adding other degradation.

Right ? So it 's not just the noise but you 're adding in fact some degradation because it 's only an approximation. Um , and the second thing is  which is m maybe more interesting  is that , um ,   if you do it with whispered speech , you get this number. What if you had  done analysis  re - synthesis and taken the pitch as well ? Alright ? So now you put the pitch in.


Right ? So it 's not just the noise but you 're adding in fact some degradation because it 's only an approximation. Um , and the second thing is  which is m maybe more interesting  is that , um ,   if you do it with whispered speech , you get this number. What if you had  done analysis  re - synthesis and taken the pitch as well ? Alright ? So now you put the pitch in.


See , that 's the question. So , you see , if it 's  if it 's  if it 's , uh  Let 's say it 's  back down to one percent again.


See , that 's the question. So , you see , if it 's  if it 's  if it 's , uh  Let 's say it 's  back down to one percent again.

That would say at least for people , having the pitch is really , really important , which would be interesting in itself. Um ,


That would say at least for people , having the pitch is really , really important , which would be interesting in itself. Um ,

if i on the other hand , if it stayed up  near five percent ,  then I 'd say " boy , LPC n twelve is pretty crummy ". You know ?


if i on the other hand , if it stayed up  near five percent ,  then I 'd say " boy , LPC n twelve is pretty crummy ". You know ?

So I I I 'm not sure  I 'm not sure how we can conclude from this anything about  that our system is close to  the human performance.


if i on the other hand , if it stayed up  near five percent ,  then I 'd say " boy , LPC n twelve is pretty crummy ". You know ?

So I I I 'm not sure  I 'm not sure how we can conclude from this anything about  that our system is close to  the human performance.

Ye Yeah. Well , the point is that eh l ey  the point is that , um ,  what I  what I listened to when I re - synthesized the LP - the LPC - twelve  spectrum  is in a way what the system , uh , is hearing , cuz @ @  all the  all the , um , excitation  all the  well , the excitation is  is not taken into account. That 's what we do with our system. And


So I I I 'm not sure  I 'm not sure how we can conclude from this anything about  that our system is close to  the human performance.

Ye Yeah. Well , the point is that eh l ey  the point is that , um ,  what I  what I listened to when I re - synthesized the LP - the LPC - twelve  spectrum  is in a way what the system , uh , is hearing , cuz @ @  all the  all the , um , excitation  all the  well , the excitation is  is not taken into account. That 's what we do with our system. And


Ye Yeah. Well , the point is that eh l ey  the point is that , um ,  what I  what I listened to when I re - synthesized the LP - the LPC - twelve  spectrum  is in a way what the system , uh , is hearing , cuz @ @  all the  all the , um , excitation  all the  well , the excitation is  is not taken into account. That 's what we do with our system. And


Twenty. Right ? I mean , th the thing is LPC is not a  a really great representation of speech.


Twenty. Right ? I mean , th the thing is LPC is not a  a really great representation of speech.

So , all I 'm saying is that you have in addition to the w the , uh , removal of pitch ,  you also are doing , uh , a particular parameterization ,


So , all I 'm saying is that you have in addition to the w the , uh , removal of pitch ,  you also are doing , uh , a particular parameterization ,


Uh , so , let 's see , how would you do  ? So , fo


Uh , so , let 's see , how would you do  ? So , fo

But that 's  that 's what we do with our systems. And


Uh , so , let 's see , how would you do  ? So , fo

But that 's  that 's what we do with our systems. And

No. Actually , we d we  we don't , because we do  we do , uh ,  uh , mel filter bank , for instance. Right ?


Uh , so , let 's see , how would you do  ? So , fo

But that 's  that 's what we do with our systems. And

No. Actually , we d we  we don't , because we do  we do , uh ,  uh , mel filter bank , for instance. Right ?

Yeah , but is it that  is it that different , I mean ?


But that 's  that 's what we do with our systems. And

No. Actually , we d we  we don't , because we do  we do , uh ,  uh , mel filter bank , for instance. Right ?

Yeah , but is it that  is it that different , I mean ?

Um ,  I don't know what mel ,  uh , based synthesis would sound like ,


No. Actually , we d we  we don't , because we do  we do , uh ,  uh , mel filter bank , for instance. Right ?

Yeah , but is it that  is it that different , I mean ?

Um ,  I don't know what mel ,  uh , based synthesis would sound like ,

but certainly the spectra are quite different.


Yeah , but is it that  is it that different , I mean ?

Um ,  I don't know what mel ,  uh , based synthesis would sound like ,

but certainly the spectra are quite different.


Um ,  I don't know what mel ,  uh , based synthesis would sound like ,

but certainly the spectra are quite different.

Couldn't you t couldn't you , um , test the human performance on just the original  audio ?


but certainly the spectra are quite different.

Couldn't you t couldn't you , um , test the human performance on just the original  audio ?

Mm - hmm. This is the one percent number.


Couldn't you t couldn't you , um , test the human performance on just the original  audio ?

Mm - hmm. This is the one percent number.

Yeah , it 's one percent. He 's trying to remove the pitch information


Mm - hmm. This is the one percent number.

Yeah , it 's one percent. He 's trying to remove the pitch information


Yeah , it 's one percent. He 's trying to remove the pitch information


and make it closer to what  to what we 're seeing as the feature vectors.


and make it closer to what  to what we 're seeing as the feature vectors.

OK. So , y uh , your performance was one percent , and then when you re - synthesize with LPC - twelve it went to five.


OK. So , y uh , your performance was one percent , and then when you re - synthesize with LPC - twelve it went to five.

I mean  We were  we were j It  it  it 's a little bit still apples and oranges because we are choosing these features in order to be the best for recognition.


I mean  We were  we were j It  it  it 's a little bit still apples and oranges because we are choosing these features in order to be the best for recognition.


I mean  We were  we were j It  it  it 's a little bit still apples and oranges because we are choosing these features in order to be the best for recognition.

And , um , i if you listen to them they still might not be very  Even if you made something closer to what we 're gonna  i it might not sound very good.


And , um , i if you listen to them they still might not be very  Even if you made something closer to what we 're gonna  i it might not sound very good.

Uh , and i the degradation from that might  might actually make it even harder ,  uh , to understand than the LPC - twelve. So all I 'm saying is that the LPC - twelve  puts in  synthesis puts in some degradation that 's not what we 're used to hearing ,


Uh , and i the degradation from that might  might actually make it even harder ,  uh , to understand than the LPC - twelve. So all I 'm saying is that the LPC - twelve  puts in  synthesis puts in some degradation that 's not what we 're used to hearing ,

and is , um  It 's not  it 's not just a question of how much information is there , as if you will always take maximum  advantage of any information that 's presented to you.


and is , um  It 's not  it 's not just a question of how much information is there , as if you will always take maximum  advantage of any information that 's presented to you.

In fact , you  hear some things better than others. And so it  it isn't


In fact , you  hear some things better than others. And so it  it isn't

But ,  I agree that it says that , uh , the kind of information that we 're feeding it is probably ,  um , um , a little bit , um , minimal. There 's definitely some things that we 've thrown away. And that 's why I was saying it might be interesting if you   an interesting test of this would be if you  if you actually put the pitch back in. So , you just extract it from the actual speech and put it back in , and see does that  is that  does that make the difference ? If that  if that takes it down to one percent again ,  then you 'd say " OK , it 's  it 's in fact having , um ,  not just the spectral envelope but also the  also the  the pitch  that , uh ,  @ @  has the information that people can use , anyway. "


But ,  I agree that it says that , uh , the kind of information that we 're feeding it is probably ,  um , um , a little bit , um , minimal. There 's definitely some things that we 've thrown away. And that 's why I was saying it might be interesting if you   an interesting test of this would be if you  if you actually put the pitch back in. So , you just extract it from the actual speech and put it back in , and see does that  is that  does that make the difference ? If that  if that takes it down to one percent again ,  then you 'd say " OK , it 's  it 's in fact having , um ,  not just the spectral envelope but also the  also the  the pitch  that , uh ,  @ @  has the information that people can use , anyway. "

But from this it 's pretty safe to say that the system is with either  two to seven percent away from  the performance of a human. Right ? So it 's somewhere in that range.


But from this it 's pretty safe to say that the system is with either  two to seven percent away from  the performance of a human. Right ? So it 's somewhere in that range.


But from this it 's pretty safe to say that the system is with either  two to seven percent away from  the performance of a human. Right ? So it 's somewhere in that range.

Yeah , so  It 's  it 's one point four times , uh , to , uh , seven times the error ,


Yeah , so  It 's  it 's one point four times , uh , to , uh , seven times the error ,


So , uh  uh , but i I don't know. I do don't wanna take you away from other things.


So , uh  uh , but i I don't know. I do don't wanna take you away from other things.

But that 's   that 's what  that 's the first thing that I would be curious about , is , you know , i i  when you we


So , uh  uh , but i I don't know. I do don't wanna take you away from other things.

But that 's   that 's what  that 's the first thing that I would be curious about , is , you know , i i  when you we

But the signal itself is like a mix of  um , of a  a periodic sound and ,  @ @  uh , unvoiced sound , and the noise


But that 's   that 's what  that 's the first thing that I would be curious about , is , you know , i i  when you we

But the signal itself is like a mix of  um , of a  a periodic sound and ,  @ @  uh , unvoiced sound , and the noise


But that 's   that 's what  that 's the first thing that I would be curious about , is , you know , i i  when you we

But the signal itself is like a mix of  um , of a  a periodic sound and ,  @ @  uh , unvoiced sound , and the noise

which is mostly ,  uh , noise. I mean not  periodic. So ,  what  what do you mean exactly by putting back the pitch in ? Because


But the signal itself is like a mix of  um , of a  a periodic sound and ,  @ @  uh , unvoiced sound , and the noise

which is mostly ,  uh , noise. I mean not  periodic. So ,  what  what do you mean exactly by putting back the pitch in ? Because


which is mostly ,  uh , noise. I mean not  periodic. So ,  what  what do you mean exactly by putting back the pitch in ? Because


So ,  uh  and you did it with a noise source , rather than with  with a s periodic source.


So ,  uh  and you did it with a noise source , rather than with  with a s periodic source.

Right ? So if you actually did real re - synthesis like you do in an LPC synthesizer , where it 's unvoiced you use noise , where it 's voiced you use ,  uh , periodic pulses.


Right ? So if you actually did real re - synthesis like you do in an LPC synthesizer , where it 's unvoiced you use noise , where it 's voiced you use ,  uh , periodic pulses.


Right ? So if you actually did real re - synthesis like you do in an LPC synthesizer , where it 's unvoiced you use noise , where it 's voiced you use ,  uh , periodic pulses.

Yeah , but it 's neither  purely voiced or purely unvoiced. Esp - especially because there is noise.


Yeah , but it 's neither  purely voiced or purely unvoiced. Esp - especially because there is noise.


Yeah , but it 's neither  purely voiced or purely unvoiced. Esp - especially because there is noise.

but it but  but the thing is that if you   um , if you detect that there 's periodic  s strong periodic components , then you can use a voiced  voice thing.


but it but  but the thing is that if you   um , if you detect that there 's periodic  s strong periodic components , then you can use a voiced  voice thing.


but it but  but the thing is that if you   um , if you detect that there 's periodic  s strong periodic components , then you can use a voiced  voice thing.

Yeah. I mean , it 's probably not worth your time. It 's  it 's a side thing and  and  and there 's a lot to do.


Yeah. I mean , it 's probably not worth your time. It 's  it 's a side thing and  and  and there 's a lot to do.

But I 'm  I 'm just saying , at least as a thought experiment ,  that 's what I would wanna test.


But I 'm  I 'm just saying , at least as a thought experiment ,  that 's what I would wanna test.

Uh , I wan would wanna drive it with a  a  a two - source system rather than a  than a one - source system.


Uh , I wan would wanna drive it with a  a  a two - source system rather than a  than a one - source system.

And then that would tell you whether in fact it 's  Cuz we 've talked about , like , this harmonic tunneling or  other things that people have done based on pitch , maybe that 's really a key element. Maybe  maybe , uh ,  uh , without that , it 's  it 's not possible to do a whole lot better than we 're doing. That  that could be.


Uh , I wan would wanna drive it with a  a  a two - source system rather than a  than a one - source system.

And then that would tell you whether in fact it 's  Cuz we 've talked about , like , this harmonic tunneling or  other things that people have done based on pitch , maybe that 's really a key element. Maybe  maybe , uh ,  uh , without that , it 's  it 's not possible to do a whole lot better than we 're doing. That  that could be.

Yeah. That 's what I was thinking by doing this es experiment ,


And then that would tell you whether in fact it 's  Cuz we 've talked about , like , this harmonic tunneling or  other things that people have done based on pitch , maybe that 's really a key element. Maybe  maybe , uh ,  uh , without that , it 's  it 's not possible to do a whole lot better than we 're doing. That  that could be.

Yeah. That 's what I was thinking by doing this es experiment ,


Yeah. That 's what I was thinking by doing this es experiment ,

But , I mean , other than that , I don't think it 's  I mean , other than the pitch de information ,  it 's hard to imagine that there 's a whole lot more  in the signal that  that , uh  that we 're throwing away that 's important.


But , I mean , other than that , I don't think it 's  I mean , other than the pitch de information ,  it 's hard to imagine that there 's a whole lot more  in the signal that  that , uh  that we 're throwing away that 's important.

Yeah , but  Yeah.  Mm - hmm. Yeah , right.


But , I mean , other than that , I don't think it 's  I mean , other than the pitch de information ,  it 's hard to imagine that there 's a whole lot more  in the signal that  that , uh  that we 're throwing away that 's important.

Yeah , but  Yeah.  Mm - hmm. Yeah , right.

Right ? I mean , we 're using  a fair number of filters in the filter bank and  uh


Yeah , but  Yeah.  Mm - hmm. Yeah , right.

Right ? I mean , we 're using  a fair number of filters in the filter bank and  uh


Right ? I mean , we 're using  a fair number of filters in the filter bank and  uh


Yeah. That 's  that 's  I mean , one  one percent is sort of what I would  I would figure. If somebody was paying really close attention , you might get  I would actually think that if ,  you looked at people on various times of the day and different amounts of attention , you might actually get up to three or four percent error on digits. Uh ,  uh


Yeah. That 's  that 's  I mean , one  one percent is sort of what I would  I would figure. If somebody was paying really close attention , you might get  I would actually think that if ,  you looked at people on various times of the day and different amounts of attention , you might actually get up to three or four percent error on digits. Uh ,  uh

So it 's  you know , we 're not  we 're not incredibly far off. On the other hand , with any of these numbers except maybe the one percent , it 's st it 's not actually usable in a commercial system with a full telephone number or something.


So it 's  you know , we 're not  we 're not incredibly far off. On the other hand , with any of these numbers except maybe the one percent , it 's st it 's not actually usable in a commercial system with a full telephone number or something.


Well , yeah. These numbers , I mean. Mmm.


Well , yeah. These numbers , I mean. Mmm.

Good. Um , while we 're still on Aurora stuff  maybe you can talk a little about the status with the , uh ,  Wall Street Journal  things for it.


Well , yeah. These numbers , I mean. Mmm.

Good. Um , while we 're still on Aurora stuff  maybe you can talk a little about the status with the , uh ,  Wall Street Journal  things for it.

So I 've , um , downloaded , uh , a couple of things from Mississippi State. Um , one is their  software  their , uh , LVCSR system. Downloaded the latest version of that. Got it compiled and everything. Um , downloaded the scripts. They wrote some scripts that sort of make it easy to run  the system on the Wall Street Journal , uh , data. Um , so I haven't run the scripts yet. Uh , I 'm waiting  there was one problem with part of it and I wrote a note to Joe asking him about it. So I 'm waiting to hear from him. But , um , I did print something out just to give you an idea about where the system is. Uh ,  they  on their web site they , uh , did this little table of where their system performs relative to other systems that have done this  this task. And , um , the Mississippi State system  using a bigram grammar , uh , is at about eight point two percent. Other comparable systems from , uh   were getting from , uh , like six point nine , six point eight percent. So they 're


Good. Um , while we 're still on Aurora stuff  maybe you can talk a little about the status with the , uh ,  Wall Street Journal  things for it.

So I 've , um , downloaded , uh , a couple of things from Mississippi State. Um , one is their  software  their , uh , LVCSR system. Downloaded the latest version of that. Got it compiled and everything. Um , downloaded the scripts. They wrote some scripts that sort of make it easy to run  the system on the Wall Street Journal , uh , data. Um , so I haven't run the scripts yet. Uh , I 'm waiting  there was one problem with part of it and I wrote a note to Joe asking him about it. So I 'm waiting to hear from him. But , um , I did print something out just to give you an idea about where the system is. Uh ,  they  on their web site they , uh , did this little table of where their system performs relative to other systems that have done this  this task. And , um , the Mississippi State system  using a bigram grammar , uh , is at about eight point two percent. Other comparable systems from , uh   were getting from , uh , like six point nine , six point eight percent. So they 're

This is on clean  on clean stuff. Yeah. They  they 've started a table  where they 're showing their results on various different noise conditions but they  they don't have a whole lot of it filled in and   and I didn't notice until after I 'd printed it out that , um ,  they don't say here  what these different testing conditions are.


So I 've , um , downloaded , uh , a couple of things from Mississippi State. Um , one is their  software  their , uh , LVCSR system. Downloaded the latest version of that. Got it compiled and everything. Um , downloaded the scripts. They wrote some scripts that sort of make it easy to run  the system on the Wall Street Journal , uh , data. Um , so I haven't run the scripts yet. Uh , I 'm waiting  there was one problem with part of it and I wrote a note to Joe asking him about it. So I 'm waiting to hear from him. But , um , I did print something out just to give you an idea about where the system is. Uh ,  they  on their web site they , uh , did this little table of where their system performs relative to other systems that have done this  this task. And , um , the Mississippi State system  using a bigram grammar , uh , is at about eight point two percent. Other comparable systems from , uh   were getting from , uh , like six point nine , six point eight percent. So they 're

This is on clean  on clean stuff. Yeah. They  they 've started a table  where they 're showing their results on various different noise conditions but they  they don't have a whole lot of it filled in and   and I didn't notice until after I 'd printed it out that , um ,  they don't say here  what these different testing conditions are.

You actually have to click on it on the web site to see them. So I  I don't know what those  numbers really mean.


This is on clean  on clean stuff. Yeah. They  they 've started a table  where they 're showing their results on various different noise conditions but they  they don't have a whole lot of it filled in and   and I didn't notice until after I 'd printed it out that , um ,  they don't say here  what these different testing conditions are.

You actually have to click on it on the web site to see them. So I  I don't know what those  numbers really mean.

What kind of numbers are they getting on these  on the test conditions ?


This is on clean  on clean stuff. Yeah. They  they 've started a table  where they 're showing their results on various different noise conditions but they  they don't have a whole lot of it filled in and   and I didn't notice until after I 'd printed it out that , um ,  they don't say here  what these different testing conditions are.

You actually have to click on it on the web site to see them. So I  I don't know what those  numbers really mean.

What kind of numbers are they getting on these  on the test conditions ?

Well , see , I was a little confused because on this table , I 'm  the they 're showing word error rate. But on this one , I  I don't know if these are word error rates because they 're really big. So ,  under condition one here it 's ten percent. Then under three it goes to sixty - four point six percent.


You actually have to click on it on the web site to see them. So I  I don't know what those  numbers really mean.

What kind of numbers are they getting on these  on the test conditions ?

Well , see , I was a little confused because on this table , I 'm  the they 're showing word error rate. But on this one , I  I don't know if these are word error rates because they 're really big. So ,  under condition one here it 's ten percent. Then under three it goes to sixty - four point six percent.


What kind of numbers are they getting on these  on the test conditions ?

Well , see , I was a little confused because on this table , I 'm  the they 're showing word error rate. But on this one , I  I don't know if these are word error rates because they 're really big. So ,  under condition one here it 's ten percent. Then under three it goes to sixty - four point six percent.


Well , see , I was a little confused because on this table , I 'm  the they 're showing word error rate. But on this one , I  I don't know if these are word error rates because they 're really big. So ,  under condition one here it 's ten percent. Then under three it goes to sixty - four point six percent.


So m I guess maybe they 're error rates but they 're , uh  they 're really high.


So m I guess maybe they 're error rates but they 're , uh  they 're really high.

I mean , we  W what 's  what 's some of the lower error rates on  on  on  uh , some of the higher error rates on , uh ,  some of these w uh , uh , highly mismatched difficult conditions ? What 's a  ?


I mean , we  W what 's  what 's some of the lower error rates on  on  on  uh , some of the higher error rates on , uh ,  some of these w uh , uh , highly mismatched difficult conditions ? What 's a  ?

Uh. Yeah , it 's around fifteen to twenty percent.


Uh. Yeah , it 's around fifteen to twenty percent.


Yeah. So twenty percent error rate on digits.


Yeah. So twenty percent error rate on digits.

So if you 're doing  so if you 're doing ,


So if you 're doing  so if you 're doing ,


Yeah , and if you 're saying sixty - thousand word recognition , getting sixty percent error on some of these noise condition not at all surprising.


Yeah , and if you 're saying sixty - thousand word recognition , getting sixty percent error on some of these noise condition not at all surprising.

The baseline is sixty percent also on digits ,


The baseline is sixty percent also on digits ,


So , yeah , that 's probably what it is then. Yeah. So they have a lot of different conditions that they 're gonna be filling out.


So , yeah , that 's probably what it is then. Yeah. So they have a lot of different conditions that they 're gonna be filling out.

It 's a bad sign when you  looking at the numbers , you can't tell whether it 's accuracy or error rate.


So , yeah , that 's probably what it is then. Yeah. So they have a lot of different conditions that they 're gonna be filling out.

It 's a bad sign when you  looking at the numbers , you can't tell whether it 's accuracy or error rate.

Yeah. Yeah. It 's  it 's gonna be hard. Um , they 're  I I 'm still waiting for them to  release the , um ,  multi - CPU version of their scripts , cuz right now their script only handles processing on a single CPU , which will take a really long time to run. So. But their s


It 's a bad sign when you  looking at the numbers , you can't tell whether it 's accuracy or error rate.

Yeah. Yeah. It 's  it 's gonna be hard. Um , they 're  I I 'm still waiting for them to  release the , um ,  multi - CPU version of their scripts , cuz right now their script only handles processing on a single CPU , which will take a really long time to run. So. But their s

Uh  I beli Yes , for the training  also. And , um , they 're supposed to be coming out with it any time ,


Yeah. Yeah. It 's  it 's gonna be hard. Um , they 're  I I 'm still waiting for them to  release the , um ,  multi - CPU version of their scripts , cuz right now their script only handles processing on a single CPU , which will take a really long time to run. So. But their s

Uh  I beli Yes , for the training  also. And , um , they 're supposed to be coming out with it any time ,


Uh  I beli Yes , for the training  also. And , um , they 're supposed to be coming out with it any time ,

the multi - CPU one. So , as soon as they get that , then I 'll  I 'll grab those too


the multi - CPU one. So , as soon as they get that , then I 'll  I 'll grab those too


Yeah. I 'll go ahead and try to run it though with just the single CPU one ,


Yeah. I 'll go ahead and try to run it though with just the single CPU one ,

and  I  they  they ,  um , released like a smaller data set that you can use that only takes like sixteen hours to train and stuff. So I can  I can run it on that just to make sure that the   the thing works and everything.


and  I  they  they ,  um , released like a smaller data set that you can use that only takes like sixteen hours to train and stuff. So I can  I can run it on that just to make sure that the   the thing works and everything.


and  I  they  they ,  um , released like a smaller data set that you can use that only takes like sixteen hours to train and stuff. So I can  I can run it on that just to make sure that the   the thing works and everything.

I guess the actual evaluation will be in six weeks or something. So. Is that about right  you think ?


I guess the actual evaluation will be in six weeks or something. So. Is that about right  you think ?


It wasn't on the conference call this morning ?


It wasn't on the conference call this morning ?

Hmm. Did they say anything on the conference call  about , um , how the  Wall Street Journal part of the test was going to be  run ? Because I  I thought I remembered hearing that some sites  were saying that they didn't have the compute to be able to run the Wall Street Journal stuff at their place ,


Hmm. Did they say anything on the conference call  about , um , how the  Wall Street Journal part of the test was going to be  run ? Because I  I thought I remembered hearing that some sites  were saying that they didn't have the compute to be able to run the Wall Street Journal stuff at their place ,


Hmm. Did they say anything on the conference call  about , um , how the  Wall Street Journal part of the test was going to be  run ? Because I  I thought I remembered hearing that some sites  were saying that they didn't have the compute to be able to run the Wall Street Journal stuff at their place ,

so there was some talk about having Mississippi State run  the systems for them. And I  Did  did that come up at all ?


Hmm. Did they say anything on the conference call  about , um , how the  Wall Street Journal part of the test was going to be  run ? Because I  I thought I remembered hearing that some sites  were saying that they didn't have the compute to be able to run the Wall Street Journal stuff at their place ,

so there was some talk about having Mississippi State run  the systems for them. And I  Did  did that come up at all ?

Uh , no. Well , this  first , this was not the point at all of this  the meeting today


so there was some talk about having Mississippi State run  the systems for them. And I  Did  did that come up at all ?

Uh , no. Well , this  first , this was not the point at all of this  the meeting today


Uh , no. Well , this  first , this was not the point at all of this  the meeting today


uh , frankly , I don't know because I d  didn't read also the  most recent mails about  the large - vocabulary task. But ,  uh , did you  do you still , uh , get the mails ? You 're not on the mailing list or what ?


uh , frankly , I don't know because I d  didn't read also the  most recent mails about  the large - vocabulary task. But ,  uh , did you  do you still , uh , get the mails ? You 're not on the mailing list or what ?

Hmm - mm. The only , um , mail I get is from Mississippi State


Hmm - mm. The only , um , mail I get is from Mississippi State

Oh , yeah. So we should have a look at this.


Oh , yeah. So we should have a look at this.

about their system. I  I don't get any  mail about


Oh , yeah. So we should have a look at this.

about their system. I  I don't get any  mail about

I have to say , there 's uh something funny - sounding about saying that one of these big companies doesn't have enough cup compute power do that , so they 're having to have it done by Mississippi State.


about their system. I  I don't get any  mail about

I have to say , there 's uh something funny - sounding about saying that one of these big companies doesn't have enough cup compute power do that , so they 're having to have it done by Mississippi State.


I have to say , there 's uh something funny - sounding about saying that one of these big companies doesn't have enough cup compute power do that , so they 're having to have it done by Mississippi State.


because there 's this whole issue about , you know , simple tuning parameters , like word insertion penalties.


because there 's this whole issue about , you know , simple tuning parameters , like word insertion penalties.

And  whether or not those are going to be tuned or not , and   So.


And  whether or not those are going to be tuned or not , and   So.

I mean , it makes a big difference. If you change your front - end , you know , the scale is completely  can be completely different , so. It seems reasonable that that at least should be tweaked to match the front - end. But


I mean , it makes a big difference. If you change your front - end , you know , the scale is completely  can be completely different , so. It seems reasonable that that at least should be tweaked to match the front - end. But

I did , but Joe  said , you know , " what you 're saying makes sense


I did , but Joe  said , you know , " what you 're saying makes sense

and  I don't know ". So he doesn't know what the answer is.


and  I don't know ". So he doesn't know what the answer is.

I mean , that 's th We had this back and forth a little bit about ,  you know , are sites gonna  are you gonna run this data for different sites ? And , well , if  if Mississippi State runs it , then maybe they 'll do a little optimization on that  parameter , and , uh  But then he wasn't asked to run it for anybody. So i it 's  it 's just not clear yet what 's gonna happen.


I mean , that 's th We had this back and forth a little bit about ,  you know , are sites gonna  are you gonna run this data for different sites ? And , well , if  if Mississippi State runs it , then maybe they 'll do a little optimization on that  parameter , and , uh  But then he wasn't asked to run it for anybody. So i it 's  it 's just not clear yet what 's gonna happen.

Uh , he 's been putting this stuff out on their web site and  for people to grab but I haven't heard too much about what 's happening.


I mean , that 's th We had this back and forth a little bit about ,  you know , are sites gonna  are you gonna run this data for different sites ? And , well , if  if Mississippi State runs it , then maybe they 'll do a little optimization on that  parameter , and , uh  But then he wasn't asked to run it for anybody. So i it 's  it 's just not clear yet what 's gonna happen.

Uh , he 's been putting this stuff out on their web site and  for people to grab but I haven't heard too much about what 's happening.

So it could be  I mean , Chuck and I had actually talked about this a couple times , and  and  over some lunches , I think ,  that , um ,  one thing that we might wanna do  The - there 's this question about , you know , what do you wanna scale ? Suppose y you can't adjust  these word insertion penalties and so forth , so you have to do everything at the level of the features. What could you do ? And , uh , one thing I had suggested at an earlier time was maybe some sort of scaling , some sort of root or  or something of the , um ,  uh , features. But the problem with that is that isn't quite the same , it occurred to me later , because what you really want to do is scale the , uh , @ @  the range of the likelihoods rather than


Uh , he 's been putting this stuff out on their web site and  for people to grab but I haven't heard too much about what 's happening.

So it could be  I mean , Chuck and I had actually talked about this a couple times , and  and  over some lunches , I think ,  that , um ,  one thing that we might wanna do  The - there 's this question about , you know , what do you wanna scale ? Suppose y you can't adjust  these word insertion penalties and so forth , so you have to do everything at the level of the features. What could you do ? And , uh , one thing I had suggested at an earlier time was maybe some sort of scaling , some sort of root or  or something of the , um ,  uh , features. But the problem with that is that isn't quite the same , it occurred to me later , because what you really want to do is scale the , uh , @ @  the range of the likelihoods rather than


Uh , he 's been putting this stuff out on their web site and  for people to grab but I haven't heard too much about what 's happening.

So it could be  I mean , Chuck and I had actually talked about this a couple times , and  and  over some lunches , I think ,  that , um ,  one thing that we might wanna do  The - there 's this question about , you know , what do you wanna scale ? Suppose y you can't adjust  these word insertion penalties and so forth , so you have to do everything at the level of the features. What could you do ? And , uh , one thing I had suggested at an earlier time was maybe some sort of scaling , some sort of root or  or something of the , um ,  uh , features. But the problem with that is that isn't quite the same , it occurred to me later , because what you really want to do is scale the , uh , @ @  the range of the likelihoods rather than

But ,  what might get at something similar , it just occurred to me , is kind of an intermediate thing  is because we do this strange thing that we do with the tandem system , at least in that system what you could do  is take the , um ,  uh , values that come out of the net , which are something like log probabilities , and scale those. And then , uh , um   then at least those things would have the right values or the right  the right range. And then that goes into the rest of it and then that 's used as observations. So it 's  it 's ,  um , another way to do it.


So it could be  I mean , Chuck and I had actually talked about this a couple times , and  and  over some lunches , I think ,  that , um ,  one thing that we might wanna do  The - there 's this question about , you know , what do you wanna scale ? Suppose y you can't adjust  these word insertion penalties and so forth , so you have to do everything at the level of the features. What could you do ? And , uh , one thing I had suggested at an earlier time was maybe some sort of scaling , some sort of root or  or something of the , um ,  uh , features. But the problem with that is that isn't quite the same , it occurred to me later , because what you really want to do is scale the , uh , @ @  the range of the likelihoods rather than

But ,  what might get at something similar , it just occurred to me , is kind of an intermediate thing  is because we do this strange thing that we do with the tandem system , at least in that system what you could do  is take the , um ,  uh , values that come out of the net , which are something like log probabilities , and scale those. And then , uh , um   then at least those things would have the right values or the right  the right range. And then that goes into the rest of it and then that 's used as observations. So it 's  it 's ,  um , another way to do it.

Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. But , these values are not directly used as probabilities anyway.


But ,  what might get at something similar , it just occurred to me , is kind of an intermediate thing  is because we do this strange thing that we do with the tandem system , at least in that system what you could do  is take the , um ,  uh , values that come out of the net , which are something like log probabilities , and scale those. And then , uh , um   then at least those things would have the right values or the right  the right range. And then that goes into the rest of it and then that 's used as observations. So it 's  it 's ,  um , another way to do it.

Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. But , these values are not directly used as probabilities anyway.


Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. But , these values are not directly used as probabilities anyway.

I know they 're not. But  but , you know  So because what we 're doing is pretty strange and complicated , we don't really know what the effect is  at the other end.


I know they 're not. But  but , you know  So because what we 're doing is pretty strange and complicated , we don't really know what the effect is  at the other end.


I know they 're not. But  but , you know  So because what we 're doing is pretty strange and complicated , we don't really know what the effect is  at the other end.

So ,  um ,  my thought was maybe  I mean , they 're not used as probabilities , but the log probabilities  we 're taking advantage of the fact that something like log probabilities has more of a Gaussian shape than Gaus - than  probabilities , and so we can model them better. So ,  in a way we 're taking advantage of the fact that they 're probabilities , because they 're this quantity that looks kind of Gaussian when you take it 's log. So ,   uh , maybe  maybe it would have a  a reasonable effect to do that.


So ,  um ,  my thought was maybe  I mean , they 're not used as probabilities , but the log probabilities  we 're taking advantage of the fact that something like log probabilities has more of a Gaussian shape than Gaus - than  probabilities , and so we can model them better. So ,  in a way we 're taking advantage of the fact that they 're probabilities , because they 're this quantity that looks kind of Gaussian when you take it 's log. So ,   uh , maybe  maybe it would have a  a reasonable effect to do that.

I d I don't know. But ,  I mean , I guess we still haven't had a   a ruling back on this. And we may end up being in a situation where we just you know really can't change the  word insertion penalty. But the other thing we could do  is  also we could  I mean , this  this may not help us ,  uh , in the evaluation but it might help us in our understanding at least. We might ,  just run it with different insper insertion penalties , and show that , uh , " well , OK , not changing it ,  playing the rules the way you wanted , we did this. But in fact if we did that , it made a   a big difference. "


So ,  um ,  my thought was maybe  I mean , they 're not used as probabilities , but the log probabilities  we 're taking advantage of the fact that something like log probabilities has more of a Gaussian shape than Gaus - than  probabilities , and so we can model them better. So ,  in a way we 're taking advantage of the fact that they 're probabilities , because they 're this quantity that looks kind of Gaussian when you take it 's log. So ,   uh , maybe  maybe it would have a  a reasonable effect to do that.

I d I don't know. But ,  I mean , I guess we still haven't had a   a ruling back on this. And we may end up being in a situation where we just you know really can't change the  word insertion penalty. But the other thing we could do  is  also we could  I mean , this  this may not help us ,  uh , in the evaluation but it might help us in our understanding at least. We might ,  just run it with different insper insertion penalties , and show that , uh , " well , OK , not changing it ,  playing the rules the way you wanted , we did this. But in fact if we did that , it made a   a big difference. "

I wonder if it  it might be possible to , uh , simulate the back - end with some other system. So we  we get our f front - end features , and then , uh , as part of the process of figuring out the scaling of these features ,  you know , if we 're gonna take it to a root or to a power or something ,   we have some back - end that we attach onto our features that sort of simulates what would be happening.


I d I don't know. But ,  I mean , I guess we still haven't had a   a ruling back on this. And we may end up being in a situation where we just you know really can't change the  word insertion penalty. But the other thing we could do  is  also we could  I mean , this  this may not help us ,  uh , in the evaluation but it might help us in our understanding at least. We might ,  just run it with different insper insertion penalties , and show that , uh , " well , OK , not changing it ,  playing the rules the way you wanted , we did this. But in fact if we did that , it made a   a big difference. "

I wonder if it  it might be possible to , uh , simulate the back - end with some other system. So we  we get our f front - end features , and then , uh , as part of the process of figuring out the scaling of these features ,  you know , if we 're gonna take it to a root or to a power or something ,   we have some back - end that we attach onto our features that sort of simulates what would be happening.


I wonder if it  it might be possible to , uh , simulate the back - end with some other system. So we  we get our f front - end features , and then , uh , as part of the process of figuring out the scaling of these features ,  you know , if we 're gonna take it to a root or to a power or something ,   we have some back - end that we attach onto our features that sort of simulates what would be happening.

And just adjust it until it 's the best number ?


And just adjust it until it 's the best number ?

and just adjust it until that  our l version of the back - end , uh , decides that  that


And just adjust it until it 's the best number ?

and just adjust it until that  our l version of the back - end , uh , decides that  that

Well , we can probably use the real thing , can't we ? And then jus just , uh ,  use it on a reduced test set or something.


and just adjust it until that  our l version of the back - end , uh , decides that  that

Well , we can probably use the real thing , can't we ? And then jus just , uh ,  use it on a reduced test set or something.


Well , we can probably use the real thing , can't we ? And then jus just , uh ,  use it on a reduced test set or something.

And then we just use that to determine some scaling factor that we use.


And then we just use that to determine some scaling factor that we use.

Yeah. So I mean , I I think that that 's a reasonable thing to do and the only question is what 's the actual knob that we use ?


And then we just use that to determine some scaling factor that we use.

Yeah. So I mean , I I think that that 's a reasonable thing to do and the only question is what 's the actual knob that we use ?

And the knob that we use should  uh , uh , unfortunately , like I say , I don't know the analytic solution to this cuz what we really want to do is change the scale of the likelihoods ,


Yeah. So I mean , I I think that that 's a reasonable thing to do and the only question is what 's the actual knob that we use ?

And the knob that we use should  uh , uh , unfortunately , like I say , I don't know the analytic solution to this cuz what we really want to do is change the scale of the likelihoods ,


And the knob that we use should  uh , uh , unfortunately , like I say , I don't know the analytic solution to this cuz what we really want to do is change the scale of the likelihoods ,

not the cha not the scale of the   the  observations. But  but , uh


not the cha not the scale of the   the  observations. But  but , uh


not the cha not the scale of the   the  observations. But  but , uh

Out of curiosity , what  what kind of recognizer  is the one from Mississippi State ?


Out of curiosity , what  what kind of recognizer  is the one from Mississippi State ?

Uh , w what do you mean when you say " what kind " ?


Out of curiosity , what  what kind of recognizer  is the one from Mississippi State ?

Uh , w what do you mean when you say " what kind " ?

Is it  ? Um , is it like a  Gaussian mixture model ?


Uh , w what do you mean when you say " what kind " ?

Is it  ? Um , is it like a  Gaussian mixture model ?