so maybe  if I can figure out how do that easily and then pass the information on to everybody so that it 's  you know , as easy to do as possible and  and people don't  it won't interfere with  their regular work , then maybe that would be good. And I think we could use it for other things around here too. So.

That 's cool. And if you 're interested in using CVS , I 've set it up here ,


That 's cool. And if you 're interested in using CVS , I 've set it up here ,


I used it a long time ago but it 's been a while so maybe I can ask you some questions.


I used it a long time ago but it 's been a while so maybe I can ask you some questions.

Oh. So. I 'll be away tomorrow and Monday but I 'll be back on Tuesday or Wednesday.


I used it a long time ago but it 's been a while so maybe I can ask you some questions.

Oh. So. I 'll be away tomorrow and Monday but I 'll be back on Tuesday or Wednesday.

Yeah. Dave , the other thing , actually , is  is this business about this wave form. Maybe you and I can talk a little bit at some point about  coming up with a better  uh demonstration of the effects of reverberation for our web page , cuz uh   the uh  um I mean , actually the  the uh It made a good  good audio demonstration because when we could play that clip the  the  the really  obvious difference is that you can hear two voices and    in the second one and only hear


Oh. So. I 'll be away tomorrow and Monday but I 'll be back on Tuesday or Wednesday.

Yeah. Dave , the other thing , actually , is  is this business about this wave form. Maybe you and I can talk a little bit at some point about  coming up with a better  uh demonstration of the effects of reverberation for our web page , cuz uh   the uh  um I mean , actually the  the uh It made a good  good audio demonstration because when we could play that clip the  the  the really  obvious difference is that you can hear two voices and    in the second one and only hear

Maybe we could just  like , talk into a cup.


Yeah. Dave , the other thing , actually , is  is this business about this wave form. Maybe you and I can talk a little bit at some point about  coming up with a better  uh demonstration of the effects of reverberation for our web page , cuz uh   the uh  um I mean , actually the  the uh It made a good  good audio demonstration because when we could play that clip the  the  the really  obvious difference is that you can hear two voices and    in the second one and only hear

Maybe we could just  like , talk into a cup.


Maybe we could just  like , talk into a cup.

No , I mean , it sound  it sounds pretty reverberant , but I mean you can't  when you play it back in a room with a  you know a big room ,  nobody can hear that difference really.


No , I mean , it sound  it sounds pretty reverberant , but I mean you can't  when you play it back in a room with a  you know a big room ,  nobody can hear that difference really.


No , I mean , it sound  it sounds pretty reverberant , but I mean you can't  when you play it back in a room with a  you know a big room ,  nobody can hear that difference really.

They hear that it 's lower amplitude and they hear there 's a second voice ,


They hear that it 's lower amplitude and they hear there 's a second voice ,

um  but uh that  actually that makes for a perfectly good demo because that 's a real obvious thing , that you hear two voices.


um  but uh that  actually that makes for a perfectly good demo because that 's a real obvious thing , that you hear two voices.


Well that  that  that 's OK. But for the  the visual , just , you know , I 'd like to have uh  uh , you know , the spectrogram again ,


Well that  that  that 's OK. But for the  the visual , just , you know , I 'd like to have uh  uh , you know , the spectrogram again ,

because you 're  you 're  you 're visual  uh abilities as a human being are so good  you can pick out  you know , you  you look at the good one , you look at the cru the screwed up one , and  and you can see the features in it without trying to @ @


because you 're  you 're  you 're visual  uh abilities as a human being are so good  you can pick out  you know , you  you look at the good one , you look at the cru the screwed up one , and  and you can see the features in it without trying to @ @


because you 're  you 're  you 're visual  uh abilities as a human being are so good  you can pick out  you know , you  you look at the good one , you look at the cru the screwed up one , and  and you can see the features in it without trying to @ @

I thought " hey , you know th " I  My initial thought was " this is not too bad ! "


I thought " hey , you know th " I  My initial thought was " this is not too bad ! "

Right. But you have to  you know , if you look at it closely , you see " well , here 's a place where this one has a big formant  uh uh formant  maj major formants here are   are moving quite a bit. " And then you look in the other one and they look practically flat.


I thought " hey , you know th " I  My initial thought was " this is not too bad ! "

Right. But you have to  you know , if you look at it closely , you see " well , here 's a place where this one has a big formant  uh uh formant  maj major formants here are   are moving quite a bit. " And then you look in the other one and they look practically flat.

So I mean you could  that 's why I was thinking , in a section like that , you could take a look  look at just that part of the spectrogram and you could say " Oh yeah. This  this really distorted it quite a bit. "


Right. But you have to  you know , if you look at it closely , you see " well , here 's a place where this one has a big formant  uh uh formant  maj major formants here are   are moving quite a bit. " And then you look in the other one and they look practically flat.

So I mean you could  that 's why I was thinking , in a section like that , you could take a look  look at just that part of the spectrogram and you could say " Oh yeah. This  this really distorted it quite a bit. "

Yeah. The main thing that struck me in looking at those two spectrograms was the difference in the high frequencies. It looked like  for the one that was farther away , you know , it really  everything was attenuated


So I mean you could  that 's why I was thinking , in a section like that , you could take a look  look at just that part of the spectrogram and you could say " Oh yeah. This  this really distorted it quite a bit. "

Yeah. The main thing that struck me in looking at those two spectrograms was the difference in the high frequencies. It looked like  for the one that was farther away , you know , it really  everything was attenuated


So I mean you could  that 's why I was thinking , in a section like that , you could take a look  look at just that part of the spectrogram and you could say " Oh yeah. This  this really distorted it quite a bit. "

Yeah. The main thing that struck me in looking at those two spectrograms was the difference in the high frequencies. It looked like  for the one that was farther away , you know , it really  everything was attenuated

and  I mean that was the main visual thing that I noticed.


Yeah. The main thing that struck me in looking at those two spectrograms was the difference in the high frequencies. It looked like  for the one that was farther away , you know , it really  everything was attenuated

and  I mean that was the main visual thing that I noticed.

Right. But it 's  it 's uh  So. Yeah. So there are  clearly are spectral effects. Since you 're getting all this indirect energy , then a lot of it does have  have uh  reduced high frequencies. But um the other thing is the temporal courses of things really are changed , and   and uh we want to show that , in some obvious way. The reason I put the wave forms in there was because  uh they  they do look quite different. Uh. And so I thought " Oh , this is good. " but I   I just uh  After  after uh they were put in there I didn't really look at them anymore , cuz I just  they were different. So  I want something that has a  is a more interesting explanation for why they 're different. Um.


and  I mean that was the main visual thing that I noticed.

Right. But it 's  it 's uh  So. Yeah. So there are  clearly are spectral effects. Since you 're getting all this indirect energy , then a lot of it does have  have uh  reduced high frequencies. But um the other thing is the temporal courses of things really are changed , and   and uh we want to show that , in some obvious way. The reason I put the wave forms in there was because  uh they  they do look quite different. Uh. And so I thought " Oh , this is good. " but I   I just uh  After  after uh they were put in there I didn't really look at them anymore , cuz I just  they were different. So  I want something that has a  is a more interesting explanation for why they 're different. Um.

Oh. So maybe we can just substitute one of these wave forms and um  then do some kind of zoom in on the spectrogram on an interesting area.


Right. But it 's  it 's uh  So. Yeah. So there are  clearly are spectral effects. Since you 're getting all this indirect energy , then a lot of it does have  have uh  reduced high frequencies. But um the other thing is the temporal courses of things really are changed , and   and uh we want to show that , in some obvious way. The reason I put the wave forms in there was because  uh they  they do look quite different. Uh. And so I thought " Oh , this is good. " but I   I just uh  After  after uh they were put in there I didn't really look at them anymore , cuz I just  they were different. So  I want something that has a  is a more interesting explanation for why they 're different. Um.

Oh. So maybe we can just substitute one of these wave forms and um  then do some kind of zoom in on the spectrogram on an interesting area.


Oh. So maybe we can just substitute one of these wave forms and um  then do some kind of zoom in on the spectrogram on an interesting area.

The other thing that we had in there that I didn't like was that um  the most obvious characteristic of the difference uh when you listen to it is that there 's a second voice , and the  the  the  the  the uh  cuts that we have there actually don't correspond to the full wave form. It 's just the first  I think there was something where he was having some trouble getting so much in , or. I  I forget the reason behind it. But  it  it 's um   it 's the first six seconds or something  of it and it 's in  the seventh or eighth second or something where @ @ the second voice comes in. So we  we would like to actually see  the voice coming in , too , I think , since that 's the most obvious thing  when you listen to it.


The other thing that we had in there that I didn't like was that um  the most obvious characteristic of the difference uh when you listen to it is that there 's a second voice , and the  the  the  the  the uh  cuts that we have there actually don't correspond to the full wave form. It 's just the first  I think there was something where he was having some trouble getting so much in , or. I  I forget the reason behind it. But  it  it 's um   it 's the first six seconds or something  of it and it 's in  the seventh or eighth second or something where @ @ the second voice comes in. So we  we would like to actually see  the voice coming in , too , I think , since that 's the most obvious thing  when you listen to it.


The other thing that we had in there that I didn't like was that um  the most obvious characteristic of the difference uh when you listen to it is that there 's a second voice , and the  the  the  the  the uh  cuts that we have there actually don't correspond to the full wave form. It 's just the first  I think there was something where he was having some trouble getting so much in , or. I  I forget the reason behind it. But  it  it 's um   it 's the first six seconds or something  of it and it 's in  the seventh or eighth second or something where @ @ the second voice comes in. So we  we would like to actually see  the voice coming in , too , I think , since that 's the most obvious thing  when you listen to it.

Uh , yeah. Yeah. I brought some  I don't know if   some  figures here. Well. I start  we started to work on spectral subtraction. And  um  the preliminary results were very bad.


Uh , yeah. Yeah. I brought some  I don't know if   some  figures here. Well. I start  we started to work on spectral subtraction. And  um  the preliminary results were very bad.


Uh , yeah. Yeah. I brought some  I don't know if   some  figures here. Well. I start  we started to work on spectral subtraction. And  um  the preliminary results were very bad.

So the thing that we did is just to add spectral subtraction before this , the Wall uh process , which contains LDA on - line normalization. And it hurts uh a lot.


So the thing that we did is just to add spectral subtraction before this , the Wall uh process , which contains LDA on - line normalization. And it hurts uh a lot.

And so we started to look at  at um things like this , which is , well , it 's  Yeah. So you have the C - zero parameters for one uh Italian utterance.


And so we started to look at  at um things like this , which is , well , it 's  Yeah. So you have the C - zero parameters for one uh Italian utterance.

And I plotted this for two channels. Channel zero is the close mic microphone , and channel one is the distant microphone. And it 's perfectly synchronized , so. And the sentence contain only one word , which is " Due " And it can't clearly be seen. Where  where is it ?


And I plotted this for two channels. Channel zero is the close mic microphone , and channel one is the distant microphone. And it 's perfectly synchronized , so. And the sentence contain only one word , which is " Due " And it can't clearly be seen. Where  where is it ?


This is a plot of C - zero , uh when we don't use spectral substraction , and when there is no on - line normalization.


This is a plot of C - zero , uh when we don't use spectral substraction , and when there is no on - line normalization.

So. There is just some filtering with the LDA and  and some downsampling , upsampling.


So. There is just some filtering with the LDA and  and some downsampling , upsampling.


Yeah. So C - zero is very clean , actually.


Yeah. So C - zero is very clean , actually.

Uh then when we apply mean normalization it looks like the second figure , though it is not. Which is good. Well , the noise part is around zero


Uh then when we apply mean normalization it looks like the second figure , though it is not. Which is good. Well , the noise part is around zero

and    And then the third figure is what happens when we apply mean normalization and variance normalization. So. What we can clearly see is that on the speech portion  the two channel come  becomes very close , but also what happens on the noisy portion is that the variance of the noise is


and    And then the third figure is what happens when we apply mean normalization and variance normalization. So. What we can clearly see is that on the speech portion  the two channel come  becomes very close , but also what happens on the noisy portion is that the variance of the noise is

This is still being a plot of C - zero ? OK.


This is still being a plot of C - zero ? OK.

Can I ask um what does variance normalization do ? w What is the effect of that ?


Can I ask um what does variance normalization do ? w What is the effect of that ?


It normalized th the standard deviation.


You  you get an estimate of the standard deviation.


No , I understand what it is , but I mean , what does it  what 's  what is


Well , I mean , because  everything uh  If you have a system based on Gaussians , everything is based on means and variances.


Well , I mean , because  everything uh  If you have a system based on Gaussians , everything is based on means and variances.

So if there 's an overall  reason  You know , it 's like uh if you were doing uh image processing and in some of the pictures you were looking at , uh there was a lot of light uh and  and in some , there was low light ,


So if there 's an overall  reason  You know , it 's like uh if you were doing uh image processing and in some of the pictures you were looking at , uh there was a lot of light uh and  and in some , there was low light ,

you know , you would want to adjust for that in order to compare things.


you know , you would want to adjust for that in order to compare things.

And the variance is just sort of like the next moment , you know ? So uh  what if um one set of pictures was taken uh so that throughout the course it was  went through daylight and night uh  um um ten times , another time it went thr I mean i is , you know , how  how much   how much vari


And the variance is just sort of like the next moment , you know ? So uh  what if um one set of pictures was taken uh so that throughout the course it was  went through daylight and night uh  um um ten times , another time it went thr I mean i is , you know , how  how much   how much vari

Or no. I guess a better example would be  how much of the light was coming in from outside rather than artificial light. So if it was a lot   if more was coming from outside , then there 'd be the bigger effect of the  of the  of the change in the  So every mean  every  all  all of the  the parameters that you have , especially the variances , are going to be affected by the overall variance.


Or no. I guess a better example would be  how much of the light was coming in from outside rather than artificial light. So if it was a lot   if more was coming from outside , then there 'd be the bigger effect of the  of the  of the change in the  So every mean  every  all  all of the  the parameters that you have , especially the variances , are going to be affected by the overall variance.

And so , in principle , you  if you remove that source , then , you know , you can


Or no. I guess a better example would be  how much of the light was coming in from outside rather than artificial light. So if it was a lot   if more was coming from outside , then there 'd be the bigger effect of the  of the  of the change in the  So every mean  every  all  all of the  the parameters that you have , especially the variances , are going to be affected by the overall variance.

And so , in principle , you  if you remove that source , then , you know , you can

I see. OK. So would  the major effect is  that you 're gonna get is by normalizing the means ,


And so , in principle , you  if you remove that source , then , you know , you can

I see. OK. So would  the major effect is  that you 're gonna get is by normalizing the means ,


I see. OK. So would  the major effect is  that you 're gonna get is by normalizing the means ,

but then the second order is  is the variances


but then the second order is  is the variances


but then the second order is  is the variances

because , again , if you  if you 're trying to distinguish between E and B


because , again , if you  if you 're trying to distinguish between E and B

if it just so happens that the E 's  were a more  you know , were recorded when  when the energy was  was  was larger or something ,


if it just so happens that the E 's  were a more  you know , were recorded when  when the energy was  was  was larger or something ,

or the variation in it was larger ,  uh than with the B 's , then this will be  give you some  some bias.


if it just so happens that the E 's  were a more  you know , were recorded when  when the energy was  was  was larger or something ,

or the variation in it was larger ,  uh than with the B 's , then this will be  give you some  some bias.

So the   it 's removing these sources of variability in the data  that have nothing to do with the linguistic component.


or the variation in it was larger ,  uh than with the B 's , then this will be  give you some  some bias.

So the   it 's removing these sources of variability in the data  that have nothing to do with the linguistic component.


So the   it 's removing these sources of variability in the data  that have nothing to do with the linguistic component.


But the  the uh  but let me as ask  ask you something.


But the  the uh  but let me as ask  ask you something.

i is  if  If you have a good voice activity detector , isn't  isn't it gonna pull that out ?


But the  the uh  but let me as ask  ask you something.

i is  if  If you have a good voice activity detector , isn't  isn't it gonna pull that out ?

Yeah. Sure. If they are good. Yeah. Well what it  it shows is that , yeah , perhaps a good voice activity detector is  is good before on - line normalization and that 's what uh  we 've already observed. But uh , yeah , voice activity detection is not   an easy thing neither.


i is  if  If you have a good voice activity detector , isn't  isn't it gonna pull that out ?

Yeah. Sure. If they are good. Yeah. Well what it  it shows is that , yeah , perhaps a good voice activity detector is  is good before on - line normalization and that 's what uh  we 've already observed. But uh , yeah , voice activity detection is not   an easy thing neither.

But after you do this , after you do the variance normalization  I mean.


Yeah. Sure. If they are good. Yeah. Well what it  it shows is that , yeah , perhaps a good voice activity detector is  is good before on - line normalization and that 's what uh  we 've already observed. But uh , yeah , voice activity detection is not   an easy thing neither.

But after you do this , after you do the variance normalization  I mean.

I don't know , it seems like this would be a lot easier than this signal to work with.


But after you do this , after you do the variance normalization  I mean.

I don't know , it seems like this would be a lot easier than this signal to work with.

Yeah. So. What I notice is that , while I prefer to look at the second figure than at the third one , well , because you clearly see where speech is.


I don't know , it seems like this would be a lot easier than this signal to work with.

Yeah. So. What I notice is that , while I prefer to look at the second figure than at the third one , well , because you clearly see where speech is.


Yeah. So. What I notice is that , while I prefer to look at the second figure than at the third one , well , because you clearly see where speech is.

But the problem is that on the speech portion , channel zero and channel one are more different than when you use variance normalization where channel zero and channel one become closer.


But the problem is that on the speech portion , channel zero and channel one are more different than when you use variance normalization where channel zero and channel one become closer.


But the problem is that on the speech portion , channel zero and channel one are more different than when you use variance normalization where channel zero and channel one become closer.

But for the purposes of finding the speech


But for the purposes of finding the speech

You 're more interested in the difference between the speech and the nonspeech ,


You 're more interested in the difference between the speech and the nonspeech ,


You 're more interested in the difference between the speech and the nonspeech ,

Yeah. So I think , yeah. For I th I think that it  perhaps it shows that  uh the parameters that the voice activity detector should use  uh have to use should be different than the parameter that have to be used for speech recognition.


Yeah. So I think , yeah. For I th I think that it  perhaps it shows that  uh the parameters that the voice activity detector should use  uh have to use should be different than the parameter that have to be used for speech recognition.

Yeah. So basically you want to reduce this effect.


Yeah. So I think , yeah. For I th I think that it  perhaps it shows that  uh the parameters that the voice activity detector should use  uh have to use should be different than the parameter that have to be used for speech recognition.

Yeah. So basically you want to reduce this effect.

So you can do that by doing the voi voice activity detection. You also could do it by spect uh spectral subtraction before the  variance normalization , right ?


Yeah. So basically you want to reduce this effect.

So you can do that by doing the voi voice activity detection. You also could do it by spect uh spectral subtraction before the  variance normalization , right ?


So you can do that by doing the voi voice activity detection. You also could do it by spect uh spectral subtraction before the  variance normalization , right ?


the  the number that at that are here are recognition experiments on Italian HM and MM  with these two kinds of parameters. And ,  well , it 's better with variance normalization.


the  the number that at that are here are recognition experiments on Italian HM and MM  with these two kinds of parameters. And ,  well , it 's better with variance normalization.

Yeah. Yeah. So it does get better even though it looks ugly.


the  the number that at that are here are recognition experiments on Italian HM and MM  with these two kinds of parameters. And ,  well , it 's better with variance normalization.

Yeah. Yeah. So it does get better even though it looks ugly.

OK. but does this have the voice activity detection in it ?


Yeah. Yeah. So it does get better even though it looks ugly.

OK. but does this have the voice activity detection in it ?


OK. but does this have the voice activity detection in it ?


But the fact is that the voice activity detector doesn't work on channel one. So. Yeah.


But the fact is that the voice activity detector doesn't work on channel one. So. Yeah.

Where  at what stage is the voice activity detector applied ? Is it applied here or a after the variance normalization ?


Where  at what stage is the voice activity detector applied ? Is it applied here or a after the variance normalization ?


It 's applied before variance normalization. So it 's a good thing ,


It 's applied before variance normalization. So it 's a good thing ,

because I guess voice activity detection on this should  could be worse.


It 's applied before variance normalization. So it 's a good thing ,

because I guess voice activity detection on this should  could be worse.

Yeah. Is it applied all the way back here ?


because I guess voice activity detection on this should  could be worse.

Yeah. Is it applied all the way back here ?

It 's applied the um on , yeah , something like this ,


because I guess voice activity detection on this should  could be worse.

Yeah. Is it applied all the way back here ?

It 's applied the um on , yeah , something like this ,

Maybe that 's why it doesn't work for channel one.


Yeah. Is it applied all the way back here ?

It 's applied the um on , yeah , something like this ,

Maybe that 's why it doesn't work for channel one.


It 's applied the um on , yeah , something like this ,

Maybe that 's why it doesn't work for channel one.


Maybe that 's why it doesn't work for channel one.

So we could perhaps do just mean normalization before VAD.


So we could perhaps do just mean normalization before VAD.


So we could perhaps do just mean normalization before VAD.

Mm - hmm. Can I ask a , I mean  a sort of top - level question , which is  um " if  if most of what the OGI folk are working with is trying to  integrate this other  other uh spectral subtraction ,  why are we worrying about it ? "


So we could perhaps do just mean normalization before VAD.

Mm - hmm. Can I ask a , I mean  a sort of top - level question , which is  um " if  if most of what the OGI folk are working with is trying to  integrate this other  other uh spectral subtraction ,  why are we worrying about it ? "

Mm - hmm. About ? Spectral subtraction ?


Mm - hmm. Can I ask a , I mean  a sort of top - level question , which is  um " if  if most of what the OGI folk are working with is trying to  integrate this other  other uh spectral subtraction ,  why are we worrying about it ? "

Mm - hmm. About ? Spectral subtraction ?


Mm - hmm. Can I ask a , I mean  a sort of top - level question , which is  um " if  if most of what the OGI folk are working with is trying to  integrate this other  other uh spectral subtraction ,  why are we worrying about it ? "

Mm - hmm. About ? Spectral subtraction ?

It 's just uh  Well it 's another  They are trying to u to use the um   the Ericsson and we 're trying to use something  something else. And. Yeah , and also to understand what happens because


Mm - hmm. About ? Spectral subtraction ?

It 's just uh  Well it 's another  They are trying to u to use the um   the Ericsson and we 're trying to use something  something else. And. Yeah , and also to understand what happens because


It 's just uh  Well it 's another  They are trying to u to use the um   the Ericsson and we 're trying to use something  something else. And. Yeah , and also to understand what happens because

uh fff Well. When we do spectral subtraction , actually , I think  that this is the  the two last figures.


uh fff Well. When we do spectral subtraction , actually , I think  that this is the  the two last figures.

Um. It seems that after spectral subtraction , speech is more emerging now uh  than  than before.


Um. It seems that after spectral subtraction , speech is more emerging now uh  than  than before.


Um. It seems that after spectral subtraction , speech is more emerging now uh  than  than before.

Well , the difference between the energy of the speech and the energy of the n spectral subtrac subtracted noise portion is  is larger.


Well , the difference between the energy of the speech and the energy of the n spectral subtrac subtracted noise portion is  is larger.


Well , the difference between the energy of the speech and the energy of the n spectral subtrac subtracted noise portion is  is larger.

Well , if you compare the first figure to this one  Actually the scale is not the same , but if you look at the  the numbers um  you clearly see that the difference between the C - zero of the speech and C - zero of the noise portion is larger. Uh but what happens is that after spectral subtraction ,  you also increase the variance of this  of C - zero.


Well , if you compare the first figure to this one  Actually the scale is not the same , but if you look at the  the numbers um  you clearly see that the difference between the C - zero of the speech and C - zero of the noise portion is larger. Uh but what happens is that after spectral subtraction ,  you also increase the variance of this  of C - zero.

And so if you apply variance normalization on this , it completely sc screw everything. Well.


And so if you apply variance normalization on this , it completely sc screw everything. Well.

Um. Uh. Yeah. So yeah. And what they did at OGI is just  uh they don't use on - line normalization , for the moment , on spectral subtraction and I think  Yeah. I think as soon as they will try on - line normalization  there will be a problem. So yeah , we 're working on the same thing but  I think uh with different  different system and


And so if you apply variance normalization on this , it completely sc screw everything. Well.

Um. Uh. Yeah. So yeah. And what they did at OGI is just  uh they don't use on - line normalization , for the moment , on spectral subtraction and I think  Yeah. I think as soon as they will try on - line normalization  there will be a problem. So yeah , we 're working on the same thing but  I think uh with different  different system and

Right. I mean , i the Intellectually it 's interesting to work on things th uh one way or the other


Um. Uh. Yeah. So yeah. And what they did at OGI is just  uh they don't use on - line normalization , for the moment , on spectral subtraction and I think  Yeah. I think as soon as they will try on - line normalization  there will be a problem. So yeah , we 're working on the same thing but  I think uh with different  different system and

Right. I mean , i the Intellectually it 's interesting to work on things th uh one way or the other


Um. Uh. Yeah. So yeah. And what they did at OGI is just  uh they don't use on - line normalization , for the moment , on spectral subtraction and I think  Yeah. I think as soon as they will try on - line normalization  there will be a problem. So yeah , we 're working on the same thing but  I think uh with different  different system and

Right. I mean , i the Intellectually it 's interesting to work on things th uh one way or the other

but I 'm  I 'm just wondering if um   on the list of things that there are to do , if there are things that we won't do because  we 've got two groups doing the same thing.


Right. I mean , i the Intellectually it 's interesting to work on things th uh one way or the other

but I 'm  I 'm just wondering if um   on the list of things that there are to do , if there are things that we won't do because  we 've got two groups doing the same thing.


but I 'm  I 'm just wondering if um   on the list of things that there are to do , if there are things that we won't do because  we 've got two groups doing the same thing.


Um. Just  just asking. Uh. I mean , it 's


Um. Just  just asking. Uh. I mean , it 's

There also could be  I mean. I can maybe see a reason f for both working on it too


There also could be  I mean. I can maybe see a reason f for both working on it too

if  um you know , if  if  if you work on something else and  and you 're waiting for them to give you  spectral subtraction  I mean it 's hard to know whether  the effects that you get from the other experiments you do will  carry over once you then bring in their spectral subtraction module. So it 's  it 's almost like everything 's held up waiting for this  one thing. I don't know if that 's true or not , but I could see how


if  um you know , if  if  if you work on something else and  and you 're waiting for them to give you  spectral subtraction  I mean it 's hard to know whether  the effects that you get from the other experiments you do will  carry over once you then bring in their spectral subtraction module. So it 's  it 's almost like everything 's held up waiting for this  one thing. I don't know if that 's true or not , but I could see how


I don't know.  I mean , we still evidently have a latency reduction plan which  which isn't quite what you 'd like it to be. That  that seems like one prominent thing. And then uh weren't issues of  of having a  a second stream or something ? That was  Was it  There was this business that , you know , we  we could use up the full forty - eight hundred bits , and


I don't know.  I mean , we still evidently have a latency reduction plan which  which isn't quite what you 'd like it to be. That  that seems like one prominent thing. And then uh weren't issues of  of having a  a second stream or something ? That was  Was it  There was this business that , you know , we  we could use up the full forty - eight hundred bits , and

Yeah. But I think they ' I think we want to work on this. They also want to work on this , so. Uh.  yeah. We  we will try MSG , but um , yeah. And they are t I think they want to work on the second stream also , but more with  some kind of multi - band or , well , what they call TRAP or generalized TRAP.


Yeah. But I think they ' I think we want to work on this. They also want to work on this , so. Uh.  yeah. We  we will try MSG , but um , yeah. And they are t I think they want to work on the second stream also , but more with  some kind of multi - band or , well , what they call TRAP or generalized TRAP.

OK. Do you remember when the next meeting is supposed to be ? the next uh


OK. Do you remember when the next meeting is supposed to be ? the next uh


Yeah. Um. Yeah , the other thing is that you saw that  that mail about uh the VAD  V A Ds performing quite differently ? That that uh So um. This  there was this experiment of uh " what if we just take the baseline ? "


Yeah. Um. Yeah , the other thing is that you saw that  that mail about uh the VAD  V A Ds performing quite differently ? That that uh So um. This  there was this experiment of uh " what if we just take the baseline ? "

set uh of features , just mel cepstra , and you inc incorporate the different V A And it looks like the  the French VAD is actually uh better  significantly better.


set uh of features , just mel cepstra , and you inc incorporate the different V A And it looks like the  the French VAD is actually uh better  significantly better.


set uh of features , just mel cepstra , and you inc incorporate the different V A And it looks like the  the French VAD is actually uh better  significantly better.

Yeah but I don't know which VAD they use. Uh. If the use the small VAD I th I think it 's on  I think it 's easy to do better because it doesn't work at all. So. I  I don't know which  which one. It 's Pratibha that  that did this experiment.


Yeah but I don't know which VAD they use. Uh. If the use the small VAD I th I think it 's on  I think it 's easy to do better because it doesn't work at all. So. I  I don't know which  which one. It 's Pratibha that  that did this experiment.


Yeah but I don't know which VAD they use. Uh. If the use the small VAD I th I think it 's on  I think it 's easy to do better because it doesn't work at all. So. I  I don't know which  which one. It 's Pratibha that  that did this experiment.

I don't @ @. He  Actually , I think that he say with the good VAD of  from OGI and with the Alcatel VAD. And the experiment was sometime better , sometime worse.


I don't @ @. He  Actually , I think that he say with the good VAD of  from OGI and with the Alcatel VAD. And the experiment was sometime better , sometime worse.

Yeah but I  it 's uh  I think you were talking about the other mail that used VAD on the reference features.


Yeah but I  it 's uh  I think you were talking about the other mail that used VAD on the reference features.

And on that one , uh the French one is  was better.


And on that one , uh the French one is  was better.


I mean it was enough better that  that it would  uh account for a fair amount of the difference between our performance , actually.


I mean it was enough better that  that it would  uh account for a fair amount of the difference between our performance , actually.

So.  Uh. So if they have a better one , we should use it. I mean. You know ? it 's  you can't work on everything.


So.  Uh. So if they have a better one , we should use it. I mean. You know ? it 's  you can't work on everything.


So.  Uh. So if they have a better one , we should use it. I mean. You know ? it 's  you can't work on everything.

Yeah , so we should find out if it 's really better. I mean if it  the  compared to the small or the big network.


Yeah , so we should find out if it 's really better. I mean if it  the  compared to the small or the big network.


Yeah , so we should find out if it 's really better. I mean if it  the  compared to the small or the big network.

And perhaps we can easily improve if  if we put like mean normalization before the  before the VAD. Because   as  as you 've  mentioned.


And perhaps we can easily improve if  if we put like mean normalization before the  before the VAD. Because   as  as you 've  mentioned.


And perhaps we can easily improve if  if we put like mean normalization before the  before the VAD. Because   as  as you 've  mentioned.

H Hynek will be back in town uh the week after next , back  back in the country. So. And start  start organizing uh  more visits and connections and so forth ,


H Hynek will be back in town uh the week after next , back  back in the country. So. And start  start organizing uh  more visits and connections and so forth ,


Also is Stephane was thinking that  maybe it was useful to f to think about uh  voiced - unvoiced


Also is Stephane was thinking that  maybe it was useful to f to think about uh  voiced - unvoiced

to work uh here in voiced - unvoiced detection.


to work uh here in voiced - unvoiced detection.


to work uh here in voiced - unvoiced detection.

Yeah , my feeling is that um actually  when we look at all the proposals , ev everybody is still using some kind of spectral envelope


Yeah , my feeling is that um actually  when we look at all the proposals , ev everybody is still using some kind of spectral envelope


Yeah , well , not pitch , but to look at the um fine  at the  at the high re high resolution spectrum.


Yeah , well , not pitch , but to look at the um fine  at the  at the high re high resolution spectrum.

So. We don't necessarily want to find the  the pitch of the  of the sound but uh  Cuz I have a feeling that  when we look  when we look at the  just at the envelope there is no way you can tell if it 's voiced and unvoiced , if there is some  It 's  it 's easy in clean speech because voiced sound are more low frequency and. So there would be more ,


So. We don't necessarily want to find the  the pitch of the  of the sound but uh  Cuz I have a feeling that  when we look  when we look at the  just at the envelope there is no way you can tell if it 's voiced and unvoiced , if there is some  It 's  it 's easy in clean speech because voiced sound are more low frequency and. So there would be more ,

uh  there is the first formant , which is the larger and then voiced sound are more high frequencies cuz it 's frication and


uh  there is the first formant , which is the larger and then voiced sound are more high frequencies cuz it 's frication and

But , yeah. When you have noise there is no um   if  if you have a low frequency noise it could be taken for  for voiced speech and.


But , yeah. When you have noise there is no um   if  if you have a low frequency noise it could be taken for  for voiced speech and.


So I think that it  it would be good  Yeah , yeah , well , go  go on.


So I think that it  it would be good  Yeah , yeah , well , go  go on.

Uh , I was just gonna say isn't there   aren't  aren't there lots of ideas for doing voice activity , or speech - nonspeech rather ,  um by looking at  um , you know , uh  I guess harmonics or looking across time


So I think that it  it would be good  Yeah , yeah , well , go  go on.

Uh , I was just gonna say isn't there   aren't  aren't there lots of ideas for doing voice activity , or speech - nonspeech rather ,  um by looking at  um , you know , uh  I guess harmonics or looking across time

Well , I think he was talking about the voiced - unvoiced , though ,


Uh , I was just gonna say isn't there   aren't  aren't there lots of ideas for doing voice activity , or speech - nonspeech rather ,  um by looking at  um , you know , uh  I guess harmonics or looking across time

Well , I think he was talking about the voiced - unvoiced , though ,

right ? So , not the speech - nonspeech.


Well , I think he was talking about the voiced - unvoiced , though ,

right ? So , not the speech - nonspeech.


right ? So , not the speech - nonspeech.


right ? So , not the speech - nonspeech.

uh w ah you know , uh even with the voiced - non  voiced - unvoiced


uh w ah you know , uh even with the voiced - non  voiced - unvoiced


uh w ah you know , uh even with the voiced - non  voiced - unvoiced

um  I thought that you or  somebody was talking about


uh w ah you know , uh even with the voiced - non  voiced - unvoiced

um  I thought that you or  somebody was talking about

Well. Uh yeah. B We should let him finish what he w he was gonna say ,


um  I thought that you or  somebody was talking about

Well. Uh yeah. B We should let him finish what he w he was gonna say ,


Well. Uh yeah. B We should let him finish what he w he was gonna say ,


Um yeah , so yeah , I think if we try to develop a second stream well , there would be one stream that is the envelope and the second , it could be interesting to have that 's  something that 's more related to the fine structure of the spectrum. And. Yeah , so I don't know. We were thinking about like using ideas from  from Larry Saul , have a good voice detector , have a good , well , voiced - speech detector , that 's working on  on the FFT and  uh


Um yeah , so yeah , I think if we try to develop a second stream well , there would be one stream that is the envelope and the second , it could be interesting to have that 's  something that 's more related to the fine structure of the spectrum. And. Yeah , so I don't know. We were thinking about like using ideas from  from Larry Saul , have a good voice detector , have a good , well , voiced - speech detector , that 's working on  on the FFT and  uh

Larry Saul could be an idea. We were are thinking about just  kind of uh taking the spectrum and computing the variance of  of the high resolution spectrum  and things like this.


Um yeah , so yeah , I think if we try to develop a second stream well , there would be one stream that is the envelope and the second , it could be interesting to have that 's  something that 's more related to the fine structure of the spectrum. And. Yeah , so I don't know. We were thinking about like using ideas from  from Larry Saul , have a good voice detector , have a good , well , voiced - speech detector , that 's working on  on the FFT and  uh

Larry Saul could be an idea. We were are thinking about just  kind of uh taking the spectrum and computing the variance of  of the high resolution spectrum  and things like this.

So u s u OK. So  So many  tell you something about that. Uh we had a guy here some years ago who did some work on  um  making use of voicing information uh to  help in reducing the noise.


Larry Saul could be an idea. We were are thinking about just  kind of uh taking the spectrum and computing the variance of  of the high resolution spectrum  and things like this.

So u s u OK. So  So many  tell you something about that. Uh we had a guy here some years ago who did some work on  um  making use of voicing information uh to  help in reducing the noise.

So what he was doing is basically y you   you do estimate the pitch.


So u s u OK. So  So many  tell you something about that. Uh we had a guy here some years ago who did some work on  um  making use of voicing information uh to  help in reducing the noise.

So what he was doing is basically y you   you do estimate the pitch.


So what he was doing is basically y you   you do estimate the pitch.

And um you  from that you  you estimate  or you estimate fine harmonic structure , whichev ei either way , it 's more or less the same. But  uh the thing is that um you then  can get rid of things that are not  i if there is strong harmonic structure ,  you can throw away stuff that 's  that 's non - harmonic.


And um you  from that you  you estimate  or you estimate fine harmonic structure , whichev ei either way , it 's more or less the same. But  uh the thing is that um you then  can get rid of things that are not  i if there is strong harmonic structure ,  you can throw away stuff that 's  that 's non - harmonic.

And that  that is another way of getting rid of part of the noise


And that  that is another way of getting rid of part of the noise

So um that 's something  that is sort of finer ,


So um that 's something  that is sort of finer ,

brings in a little more information than just spectral subtraction. Um.


brings in a little more information than just spectral subtraction. Um.

And he had some  I mean , he did that sort of in combination with RASTA. It was kind of like RASTA was taking care of convolutional stuff


And he had some  I mean , he did that sort of in combination with RASTA. It was kind of like RASTA was taking care of convolutional stuff


and  and got some  some decent results doing that. So that  that 's another  another way. But yeah , there 's  there 's


and  and got some  some decent results doing that. So that  that 's another  another way. But yeah , there 's  there 's

Right. There 's all these cues. We 've actually back when Chuck was here we did some voiced - unvoiced uh  classification using a bunch of these ,


Right. There 's all these cues. We 've actually back when Chuck was here we did some voiced - unvoiced uh  classification using a bunch of these ,

and  and uh works OK. Obviously it 's not perfect but um


and  and uh works OK. Obviously it 's not perfect but um

But the thing is that you can't  given the constraints of this task , we can't ,  in a very nice way , feed  forward to the recognizer the information  the probabilistic information that you might get about whether it 's voiced or unvoiced , where w we can't you know affect the   the uh distributions or anything.


But the thing is that you can't  given the constraints of this task , we can't ,  in a very nice way , feed  forward to the recognizer the information  the probabilistic information that you might get about whether it 's voiced or unvoiced , where w we can't you know affect the   the uh distributions or anything.

But we  what we uh  I guess we could Yeah.


But the thing is that you can't  given the constraints of this task , we can't ,  in a very nice way , feed  forward to the recognizer the information  the probabilistic information that you might get about whether it 's voiced or unvoiced , where w we can't you know affect the   the uh distributions or anything.

But we  what we uh  I guess we could Yeah.

Didn't the head dude send around that message ? Yeah , I think you sent us all a copy of the message , where he was saying that  I I 'm not sure , exactly , what the gist of what he was saying , but something having to do with the voice  activity detector and that it will   that people shouldn't put their own in or something. It was gonna be a


But we  what we uh  I guess we could Yeah.

Didn't the head dude send around that message ? Yeah , I think you sent us all a copy of the message , where he was saying that  I I 'm not sure , exactly , what the gist of what he was saying , but something having to do with the voice  activity detector and that it will   that people shouldn't put their own in or something. It was gonna be a

That  But  OK. So that 's voice activity detector as opposed to voicing detector.


Didn't the head dude send around that message ? Yeah , I think you sent us all a copy of the message , where he was saying that  I I 'm not sure , exactly , what the gist of what he was saying , but something having to do with the voice  activity detector and that it will   that people shouldn't put their own in or something. It was gonna be a

That  But  OK. So that 's voice activity detector as opposed to voicing detector.

So we 're talking about something a little different.


That  But  OK. So that 's voice activity detector as opposed to voicing detector.

So we 're talking about something a little different.


So we 're talking about something a little different.


I guess what you could do , maybe this would be w useful , if  if you have  if you view the second stream , yeah , before you  before you do KLT 's and so forth , if you do view it as probabilities , and if it 's an independent  So , if it 's  if it 's uh not so much  envelope - based by fine - structure - based , uh looking at harmonicity or something like that , um if you get a probability from that information and then multiply it by  you know , multiply by all the voiced  outputs and all the unvoiced outputs , you know , then  use that as the


I guess what you could do , maybe this would be w useful , if  if you have  if you view the second stream , yeah , before you  before you do KLT 's and so forth , if you do view it as probabilities , and if it 's an independent  So , if it 's  if it 's uh not so much  envelope - based by fine - structure - based , uh looking at harmonicity or something like that , um if you get a probability from that information and then multiply it by  you know , multiply by all the voiced  outputs and all the unvoiced outputs , you know , then  use that as the

uh  take the log of that or  uh pre pre uh  pre - nonlinearity ,


uh  take the log of that or  uh pre pre uh  pre - nonlinearity ,


then that would  that would I guess be uh a reasonable use of independent information. So maybe that 's what you meant. And then that would be


then that would  that would I guess be uh a reasonable use of independent information. So maybe that 's what you meant. And then that would be

Yeah , well , I was not thinking this  yeah , this could be an yeah So you mean have some kind of probability for the v the voicing


then that would  that would I guess be uh a reasonable use of independent information. So maybe that 's what you meant. And then that would be

Yeah , well , I was not thinking this  yeah , this could be an yeah So you mean have some kind of probability for the v the voicing

R Right. So you have a second neural net.


Yeah , well , I was not thinking this  yeah , this could be an yeah So you mean have some kind of probability for the v the voicing

R Right. So you have a second neural net.

It could be pretty small. Yeah. If you have a tandem system and then you have some kind of  it can be pretty small  net


R Right. So you have a second neural net.

It could be pretty small. Yeah. If you have a tandem system and then you have some kind of  it can be pretty small  net


It could be pretty small. Yeah. If you have a tandem system and then you have some kind of  it can be pretty small  net

we used  we d did some of this stuff. Uh I  I did , some years ago ,


we used  we d did some of this stuff. Uh I  I did , some years ago ,

and the  and  and you use   the thing is to use information primarily that 's different as you say , it 's more fine - structure - based than  than envelope - based


and the  and  and you use   the thing is to use information primarily that 's different as you say , it 's more fine - structure - based than  than envelope - based

uh so then it you  you  you can pretty much guarantee it 's stuff that you 're not looking at very well with the other one , and uh then you only use for this one distinction.


uh so then it you  you  you can pretty much guarantee it 's stuff that you 're not looking at very well with the other one , and uh then you only use for this one distinction.

And  and so now you 've got a probability of the cases , and you 've got uh the probability of the finer uh categories on the other side. You multiply them where appropriate and uh  um


And  and so now you 've got a probability of the cases , and you 've got uh the probability of the finer uh categories on the other side. You multiply them where appropriate and uh  um

if they really are from independent  information sources then  they should have different kinds of errors


if they really are from independent  information sources then  they should have different kinds of errors

and roughly independent errors , and  it 's a good choice for


and roughly independent errors , and  it 's a good choice for


and roughly independent errors , and  it 's a good choice for

Yeah. Because , yeah , well , spectral subtraction is good and we could u we could use the fine structure to  to have a better estimate of the noise but  still there is this issue with spectral subtraction that it seems to increase the variance of  of  of


Yeah. Because , yeah , well , spectral subtraction is good and we could u we could use the fine structure to  to have a better estimate of the noise but  still there is this issue with spectral subtraction that it seems to increase the variance of  of  of


Yeah. Because , yeah , well , spectral subtraction is good and we could u we could use the fine structure to  to have a better estimate of the noise but  still there is this issue with spectral subtraction that it seems to increase the variance of  of  of

um Well it 's this musical noise which is annoying if you d you do some kind of on - line normalization after.


um Well it 's this musical noise which is annoying if you d you do some kind of on - line normalization after.

So. Um. Yeah. Well. Spectral subtraction and on - line normalization don't seem to  to go together very well. I


um Well it 's this musical noise which is annoying if you d you do some kind of on - line normalization after.

So. Um. Yeah. Well. Spectral subtraction and on - line normalization don't seem to  to go together very well. I

Or if you do a spectral subtraction  do some spectral subtraction first and then do some on - line normalization then do some more spectral subtraction  I mean , maybe  maybe you can do it layers or something so it doesn't  doesn't hurt too much or something.


So. Um. Yeah. Well. Spectral subtraction and on - line normalization don't seem to  to go together very well. I

Or if you do a spectral subtraction  do some spectral subtraction first and then do some on - line normalization then do some more spectral subtraction  I mean , maybe  maybe you can do it layers or something so it doesn't  doesn't hurt too much or something.


So. Um. Yeah. Well. Spectral subtraction and on - line normalization don't seem to  to go together very well. I

Or if you do a spectral subtraction  do some spectral subtraction first and then do some on - line normalization then do some more spectral subtraction  I mean , maybe  maybe you can do it layers or something so it doesn't  doesn't hurt too much or something.

But it  but uh , anyway I think I was sort of arguing against myself there by giving that example


Or if you do a spectral subtraction  do some spectral subtraction first and then do some on - line normalization then do some more spectral subtraction  I mean , maybe  maybe you can do it layers or something so it doesn't  doesn't hurt too much or something.

But it  but uh , anyway I think I was sort of arguing against myself there by giving that example


But it  but uh , anyway I think I was sort of arguing against myself there by giving that example

uh I mean cuz I was already sort of  suggesting that we should be careful about not spending too much time on exactly what they 're doing In fact if you get  if you go into uh  a uh harmonics - related thing  it 's definitely going to be different than what they 're doing and uh uh


uh I mean cuz I was already sort of  suggesting that we should be careful about not spending too much time on exactly what they 're doing In fact if you get  if you go into uh  a uh harmonics - related thing  it 's definitely going to be different than what they 're doing and uh uh

should have some interesting properties in noise. Um.  I know that when have people have done  um sort of the obvious thing of taking  uh your feature vector and adding  in some variables which are  pitch related or uh that  it hasn't  my impression it hasn't particularly helped. Uh. Has not.


should have some interesting properties in noise. Um.  I know that when have people have done  um sort of the obvious thing of taking  uh your feature vector and adding  in some variables which are  pitch related or uh that  it hasn't  my impression it hasn't particularly helped. Uh. Has not.


But I think uh  that 's  that 's a question for this uh you know extending the feature vector versus having different streams.


But I think uh  that 's  that 's a question for this uh you know extending the feature vector versus having different streams.

Oh. Was it nois noisy condition ? the example that you  you just


But I think uh  that 's  that 's a question for this uh you know extending the feature vector versus having different streams.

Oh. Was it nois noisy condition ? the example that you  you just

And  and it may not have been noisy conditions.


Oh. Was it nois noisy condition ? the example that you  you just

And  and it may not have been noisy conditions.

Yeah. I  I don't remember the example but it was   it was on some DARPA data and some years ago and so it probably wasn't , actually


And  and it may not have been noisy conditions.

Yeah. I  I don't remember the example but it was   it was on some DARPA data and some years ago and so it probably wasn't , actually

Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. Yeah. But we were thinking , we discussed with Barry about this , and  perhaps  thinking  we were thinking about some kind of sheet cheating experiment where we would use TIMIT


Yeah. I  I don't remember the example but it was   it was on some DARPA data and some years ago and so it probably wasn't , actually

Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. Yeah. But we were thinking , we discussed with Barry about this , and  perhaps  thinking  we were thinking about some kind of sheet cheating experiment where we would use TIMIT


Yeah. I  I don't remember the example but it was   it was on some DARPA data and some years ago and so it probably wasn't , actually

Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. Yeah. But we were thinking , we discussed with Barry about this , and  perhaps  thinking  we were thinking about some kind of sheet cheating experiment where we would use TIMIT

and see if giving the d uh , this voicing bit would help in  in terms of uh frame classification.


Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. Yeah. But we were thinking , we discussed with Barry about this , and  perhaps  thinking  we were thinking about some kind of sheet cheating experiment where we would use TIMIT

and see if giving the d uh , this voicing bit would help in  in terms of uh frame classification.

Why don't you  why don't you just do it with Aurora ?


and see if giving the d uh , this voicing bit would help in  in terms of uh frame classification.

Why don't you  why don't you just do it with Aurora ?


Why don't you  why don't you just do it with Aurora ?

Yeah , but  but  B but we cannot do the cheating , this cheating thing.


Yeah , but  but  B but we cannot do the cheating , this cheating thing.


Well. Cuz we don't have  Well , for Italian perhaps we have , but we don't have this labeling for Aurora. We just have a labeling with word models


we don't have frame  frame level transcriptions.


But you could  I mean you can  you can align so that  It 's not perfect , but if you  if you know what was said and


But you could  I mean you can  you can align so that  It 's not perfect , but if you  if you know what was said and

But the problem is that their models are all word level models. So there 's no phone models  that you get alignments for.


But the problem is that their models are all word level models. So there 's no phone models  that you get alignments for.

You  So you could find out where the word boundaries are but that 's about it.


You  So you could find out where the word boundaries are but that 's about it.


You  So you could find out where the word boundaries are but that 's about it.

S But we could use uh the  the noisy version that TIMIT , which  you know , is similar to the  the noises found in the TI - digits  um portion of Aurora.


You  So you could find out where the word boundaries are but that 's about it.

S But we could use uh the  the noisy version that TIMIT , which  you know , is similar to the  the noises found in the TI - digits  um portion of Aurora.

Yeah. noise , yeah. Yeah , that 's right , yep. Mmm.


S But we could use uh the  the noisy version that TIMIT , which  you know , is similar to the  the noises found in the TI - digits  um portion of Aurora.

Yeah. noise , yeah. Yeah , that 's right , yep. Mmm.


S But we could use uh the  the noisy version that TIMIT , which  you know , is similar to the  the noises found in the TI - digits  um portion of Aurora.

Yeah. noise , yeah. Yeah , that 's right , yep. Mmm.

Well , I guess  I guess we can  we can say that it will help , but I don't know. If this voicing bit doesn't help , uh , I think we don't have to  to work more about this because


Yeah. noise , yeah. Yeah , that 's right , yep. Mmm.

Well , I guess  I guess we can  we can say that it will help , but I don't know. If this voicing bit doesn't help , uh , I think we don't have to  to work more about this because


Well , I guess  I guess we can  we can say that it will help , but I don't know. If this voicing bit doesn't help , uh , I think we don't have to  to work more about this because

Uh. It 's just to know if it  how much i it will help


Uh. It 's just to know if it  how much i it will help

and to have an idea of how much we can gain.


Uh. It 's just to know if it  how much i it will help

and to have an idea of how much we can gain.

Right. I mean in experiments that we did a long time ago


and to have an idea of how much we can gain.

Right. I mean in experiments that we did a long time ago


and to have an idea of how much we can gain.

Right. I mean in experiments that we did a long time ago

and different ta it was probably Resource Management or something , um , I think you were getting  something like still eight or nine percent error on the voicing , as I recall. And um , so um


Right. I mean in experiments that we did a long time ago

and different ta it was probably Resource Management or something , um , I think you were getting  something like still eight or nine percent error on the voicing , as I recall. And um , so um


and different ta it was probably Resource Management or something , um , I think you were getting  something like still eight or nine percent error on the voicing , as I recall. And um , so um

what that said is that , sort of , left to its own devices , like without the  a strong language model and so forth , that you would   you would make significant number of errors  just with your uh probabilistic machinery in deciding


what that said is that , sort of , left to its own devices , like without the  a strong language model and so forth , that you would   you would make significant number of errors  just with your uh probabilistic machinery in deciding


what that said is that , sort of , left to its own devices , like without the  a strong language model and so forth , that you would   you would make significant number of errors  just with your uh probabilistic machinery in deciding

Yeah , the  though I think uh there was one problem with that in that , you know , we used canonical mapping so  our truth may not have really been  true to the acoustics.


Yeah , the  though I think uh there was one problem with that in that , you know , we used canonical mapping so  our truth may not have really been  true to the acoustics.


Yeah. Well back twenty years ago when I did this voiced - unvoiced stuff , we were getting more like  ninety - seven or ninety - eight percent correct in voicing. But that was  speaker - dependent  actually. We were doing training  on a particular announcer


Yeah. Well back twenty years ago when I did this voiced - unvoiced stuff , we were getting more like  ninety - seven or ninety - eight percent correct in voicing. But that was  speaker - dependent  actually. We were doing training  on a particular announcer

and  and getting a  very good handle on the features.


and  and getting a  very good handle on the features.

And we did this complex feature selection thing where we looked at all the different possible features one could have for voicing and   and  and uh  and exhaustively searched  all size subsets and  and uh  for  for that particular speaker and you 'd find you know the five or six features which really did well on them.


And we did this complex feature selection thing where we looked at all the different possible features one could have for voicing and   and  and uh  and exhaustively searched  all size subsets and  and uh  for  for that particular speaker and you 'd find you know the five or six features which really did well on them.


And we did this complex feature selection thing where we looked at all the different possible features one could have for voicing and   and  and uh  and exhaustively searched  all size subsets and  and uh  for  for that particular speaker and you 'd find you know the five or six features which really did well on them.

And then doing  doing all of that we could get down to two or three percent error. But that , again , was speaker - dependent with  lots of feature selection


And then doing  doing all of that we could get down to two or three percent error. But that , again , was speaker - dependent with  lots of feature selection


So I would  I would believe  that uh it was quite likely that um looking at envelope only , that we 'd be  significantly worse than that.


So I would  I would believe  that uh it was quite likely that um looking at envelope only , that we 'd be  significantly worse than that.

And the  all the  the SpeechCorders ? what 's the idea behind ? Cuz they  they have to  Oh , they don't even have to detect voiced spe speech ?


And the  all the  the SpeechCorders ? what 's the idea behind ? Cuz they  they have to  Oh , they don't even have to detect voiced spe speech ?

The modern ones don't do a   a simple switch.


The modern ones don't do a   a simple switch.


Yeah they do  analysis - by - synthesis. They try  they  they try every  every possible excitation they have in their code book and find the one that matches best.


Yeah they do  analysis - by - synthesis. They try  they  they try every  every possible excitation they have in their code book and find the one that matches best.

Yeah. Mmm. Alright. Yeah. So it would not help.


Yeah. Mmm. Alright. Yeah. So it would not help.


Can I just mention one other interesting thing ?


Can I just mention one other interesting thing ?

Um. One of the ideas that we  had come up with last week for things to try to  improve the system  Um. Actually I  I s we didn't  I guess I wrote this in after the meeting b but  the thought I had was um looking at the language model that 's used in the HTK recognizer , which is basically just a big  loop ,


Um. One of the ideas that we  had come up with last week for things to try to  improve the system  Um. Actually I  I s we didn't  I guess I wrote this in after the meeting b but  the thought I had was um looking at the language model that 's used in the HTK recognizer , which is basically just a big  loop ,


and then that can be  either go to silence or go to another digit , which  That model would allow for the production of  infinitely long sequences of digits , right ?


and then that can be  either go to silence or go to another digit , which  That model would allow for the production of  infinitely long sequences of digits , right ?

So. I thought " well I 'm gonna just look at the  what actual digit strings do occur in the training data. "


So. I thought " well I 'm gonna just look at the  what actual digit strings do occur in the training data. "

And the interesting thing was it turns out that there are no sequences of two - long or three - long digit strings  in any of the Aurora training data. So it 's either one , four , five , six , uh up to eleven , and then it skips and then there 's some at sixteen.


And the interesting thing was it turns out that there are no sequences of two - long or three - long digit strings  in any of the Aurora training data. So it 's either one , four , five , six , uh up to eleven , and then it skips and then there 's some at sixteen.

Um. I don't know. I didn't look at the test data yet.


And the interesting thing was it turns out that there are no sequences of two - long or three - long digit strings  in any of the Aurora training data. So it 's either one , four , five , six , uh up to eleven , and then it skips and then there 's some at sixteen.

Um. I don't know. I didn't look at the test data yet.

Yeah. I mean if there 's some testing data that has  has   has two or three


Um. I don't know. I didn't look at the test data yet.

Yeah. I mean if there 's some testing data that has  has   has two or three

So. Yeah. But I just thought that was a little odd , that there were no two or three long  Sorry. So I  I  just for the heck of it , I made a little grammar which um , you know , had it 's separate path  for each length digit string you could get. So there was a one - long path and there was a four - long and a five - long


Yeah. I mean if there 's some testing data that has  has   has two or three

So. Yeah. But I just thought that was a little odd , that there were no two or three long  Sorry. So I  I  just for the heck of it , I made a little grammar which um , you know , had it 's separate path  for each length digit string you could get. So there was a one - long path and there was a four - long and a five - long

and I tried that and it got way worse. There were lots of deletions.


So. Yeah. But I just thought that was a little odd , that there were no two or three long  Sorry. So I  I  just for the heck of it , I made a little grammar which um , you know , had it 's separate path  for each length digit string you could get. So there was a one - long path and there was a four - long and a five - long

and I tried that and it got way worse. There were lots of deletions.


and I tried that and it got way worse. There were lots of deletions.

So it was   you know , I  I didn't have any weights of these paths or  I didn't have anything like that.


So it was   you know , I  I didn't have any weights of these paths or  I didn't have anything like that.

And I played with tweaking the  word transition penalties a bunch , but I couldn't go anywhere.


And I played with tweaking the  word transition penalties a bunch , but I couldn't go anywhere.

But um. I thought " well if I only allow  " Yeah , I guess I should have looked at  to see how often there was a mistake where a two - long or a three - long path was actually put out as a hypothesis. Um. But.


But um. I thought " well if I only allow  " Yeah , I guess I should have looked at  to see how often there was a mistake where a two - long or a three - long path was actually put out as a hypothesis. Um. But.

So to do that right you 'd probably want to have   allow for them all but then have weightings and things. So. I just thought that was a interesting  thing about the data.


But um. I thought " well if I only allow  " Yeah , I guess I should have looked at  to see how often there was a mistake where a two - long or a three - long path was actually put out as a hypothesis. Um. But.

So to do that right you 'd probably want to have   allow for them all but then have weightings and things. So. I just thought that was a interesting  thing about the data.

OK. So we 're gonna read some more digit strings I guess ?


So to do that right you 'd probably want to have   allow for them all but then have weightings and things. So. I just thought that was a interesting  thing about the data.

OK. So we 're gonna read some more digit strings I guess ?


OK. So we 're gonna read some more digit strings I guess ?


That should hopefully do the trick , um. 'Kay. Sorry about the small delay. Falling a little bit behind schedule. And that's uh fifteen twenty five. Okay. So just to try and roughly go over what we agreed in the last one , um we're gonna go for something uh uh how was it ? Uh The new black , I believe.

Um something that looks good 'cause that seems to be in preference to actual functionality in the end , though we should never avoid functionality , of course. Uh many of our components are gonna be standard , off the shelf , but it seemed like we were gonna require at least an advanced chip and we were still very much for the idea of using an L_C_D_ display. Um other things were we were hoping to use rubber , most likely gonna be double curved , etcetera. Okay. So um due to your hard work , we might as well let the uh two designers go first , and uh show us the prototype.


Um something that looks good 'cause that seems to be in preference to actual functionality in the end , though we should never avoid functionality , of course. Uh many of our components are gonna be standard , off the shelf , but it seemed like we were gonna require at least an advanced chip and we were still very much for the idea of using an L_C_D_ display. Um other things were we were hoping to use rubber , most likely gonna be double curved , etcetera. Okay. So um due to your hard work , we might as well let the uh two designers go first , and uh show us the prototype.

Quite how the best way to do this is , I'm not sure ,


Quite how the best way to do this is , I'm not sure ,


Quite how the best way to do this is , I'm not sure ,

and uh outline our ideas. Okay. Now do  uh doing the prototype gave us a bit more insight into the ergonomics of the design. Um for one thing , it turned out that the only point at which it needs to be articulated for handedness is um is h i is down here for the uh L_E_D_. As it turned out , the whole thing transfers from the right to left hand fairly well from the point of view of operating the uh function buttons and joystick , though it might be an idea to be able to a adjust the positions for the base of the joystick just a little bit for uh


and uh outline our ideas. Okay. Now do  uh doing the prototype gave us a bit more insight into the ergonomics of the design. Um for one thing , it turned out that the only point at which it needs to be articulated for handedness is um is h i is down here for the uh L_E_D_. As it turned out , the whole thing transfers from the right to left hand fairly well from the point of view of operating the uh function buttons and joystick , though it might be an idea to be able to a adjust the positions for the base of the joystick just a little bit for uh


and uh outline our ideas. Okay. Now do  uh doing the prototype gave us a bit more insight into the ergonomics of the design. Um for one thing , it turned out that the only point at which it needs to be articulated for handedness is um is h i is down here for the uh L_E_D_. As it turned out , the whole thing transfers from the right to left hand fairly well from the point of view of operating the uh function buttons and joystick , though it might be an idea to be able to a adjust the positions for the base of the joystick just a little bit for uh

ju just a thought. You could simply have a slightly ovoid shaped joystick that could then just be turn uh twisted round , so that the uh sticky uh so that the bit that sticks out a bit more is on one side or the other. But as you as you see with the uh  with holding it in the left hand , the L_ uh the L_C_D_ is nowhere useful , so that would need to be articulated uh if we're going to retain  ergonomic design. Um now I I got your note about uh keeping the cost down.


ju just a thought. You could simply have a slightly ovoid shaped joystick that could then just be turn uh twisted round , so that the uh sticky uh so that the bit that sticks out a bit more is on one side or the other. But as you as you see with the uh  with holding it in the left hand , the L_ uh the L_C_D_ is nowhere useful , so that would need to be articulated uh if we're going to retain  ergonomic design. Um now I I got your note about uh keeping the cost down.


this design could be done with um with uh plastic casing.


this design could be done with um with uh plastic casing.

Though I would recommend around the grip part here in the middle , having maybe just a rubber grip over that which would allow for a slightly more sort of bio-morphic form , and a bit more ergonomic as well. As for the um as for the single curve , um well this edge and this edge , like I say it would be nice to have some curvature to it , but it's not absolutely necessary. Really the curve that's most needed is the underside so that the jo so that the joystick rests over the the edge of the hand like this. Um and you have the uh transmitter here and a wee speaker for the uh for the uh for the uh fi uh for the remote control finder. So.


Though I would recommend around the grip part here in the middle , having maybe just a rubber grip over that which would allow for a slightly more sort of bio-morphic form , and a bit more ergonomic as well. As for the um as for the single curve , um well this edge and this edge , like I say it would be nice to have some curvature to it , but it's not absolutely necessary. Really the curve that's most needed is the underside so that the jo so that the joystick rests over the the edge of the hand like this. Um and you have the uh transmitter here and a wee speaker for the uh for the uh for the uh fi uh for the remote control finder. So.

Um obviously it's gonna be bulkier than how it looks , because it's gonna be flat on one side , so the L_C_D_ will be s sticking down like this , won't it ?


Um obviously it's gonna be bulkier than how it looks , because it's gonna be flat on one side , so the L_C_D_ will be s sticking down like this , won't it ?


And it's plastic as well , so it won't be as comfortable on the hand.


And it's plastic as well , so it won't be as comfortable on the hand.

Yeah. I mean with the with the rubber design it could i you know it could pretty much mould very much to the to the user's hand.


And it's plastic as well , so it won't be as comfortable on the hand.

Yeah. I mean with the with the rubber design it could i you know it could pretty much mould very much to the to the user's hand.

One nice wee feature if we could if we could still do the rubber , I though of was to have  the uh rubber extend beyond the end of the uh  of the rigid substructure. So it has a wee sort of tail that you just drape over your wrist so it stays in position nicely.


Yeah. I mean with the with the rubber design it could i you know it could pretty much mould very much to the to the user's hand.

One nice wee feature if we could if we could still do the rubber , I though of was to have  the uh rubber extend beyond the end of the uh  of the rigid substructure. So it has a wee sort of tail that you just drape over your wrist so it stays in position nicely.


One nice wee feature if we could if we could still do the rubber , I though of was to have  the uh rubber extend beyond the end of the uh  of the rigid substructure. So it has a wee sort of tail that you just drape over your wrist so it stays in position nicely.


Right. Yeah I've got a  if you load up my evaluation document.


Uh evaluation.  Basic point uh have a list of criteria that we need to rate the prototype by.  Um then we will  it's a seven s um seven seven step kinda evaluation process. So um not seven steps , seven scale. So after we've finished doing all the ratings for each criteria , we average that and that will give us some type of uh confidence in our prototype. And uh the criteria  based on Real Reactions' kinda goals and policies , marketing strategies , and also those I put together from the user requirements phase. 'Kay. Um if you flip the   So , those are the criteria. And uh perhaps I could have put 'em a bit better , but you notice a few things that we've totally abandoned , which means  that uh the product will score very badly on some of those points.


Uh evaluation.  Basic point uh have a list of criteria that we need to rate the prototype by.  Um then we will  it's a seven s um seven seven step kinda evaluation process. So um not seven steps , seven scale. So after we've finished doing all the ratings for each criteria , we average that and that will give us some type of uh confidence in our prototype. And uh the criteria  based on Real Reactions' kinda goals and policies , marketing strategies , and also those I put together from the user requirements phase. 'Kay. Um if you flip the   So , those are the criteria. And uh perhaps I could have put 'em a bit better , but you notice a few things that we've totally abandoned , which means  that uh the product will score very badly on some of those points.

Put it mildly. So we have um true ? One , t Seven , eight , oh. Fourth. Okay , so we have to go through each point. If we imagine it's actually straight , and just give it a a score. So um how well would you say the prototype is uh how well have we realised the dream of being able to stop remotes from from being lost , or to be able to find them once they are lost. I mean , uh is the homing thing still  the locator , is that still


Put it mildly. So we have um true ? One , t Seven , eight , oh. Fourth. Okay , so we have to go through each point. If we imagine it's actually straight , and just give it a a score. So um how well would you say the prototype is uh how well have we realised the dream of being able to stop remotes from from being lost , or to be able to find them once they are lost. I mean , uh is the homing thing still  the locator , is that still

Yeah , I believe so. So I mean I don't think anybody could actually stop a remote being lost ,


Yeah , I believe so. So I mean I don't think anybody could actually stop a remote being lost ,


Yeah , I believe so. So I mean I don't think anybody could actually stop a remote being lost ,

'cause that would mean doing something about the human element ,


'cause that would mean doing something about the human element ,

but I'd like to think that we've done something about finding the damn thing once we have.


'cause that would mean doing something about the human element ,

but I'd like to think that we've done something about finding the damn thing once we have.

Mm. Mm. And making it a bright colour helps


but I'd like to think that we've done something about finding the damn thing once we have.

Mm. Mm. And making it a bright colour helps


but I'd like to think that we've done something about finding the damn thing once we have.

Mm. Mm. And making it a bright colour helps

with the  personally I would have gone for purple .


Mm. Mm. And making it a bright colour helps

with the  personally I would have gone for purple .

Mm. Bright colour. So we still have that noise thing , yeah ?


with the  personally I would have gone for purple .

Mm. Bright colour. So we still have that noise thing , yeah ?


with the  personally I would have gone for purple .

Mm. Bright colour. So we still have that noise thing , yeah ?

Os on a scale of one to seven , how would you guys rate it for finding  finding it once it's lost ?


Mm. Bright colour. So we still have that noise thing , yeah ?

Os on a scale of one to seven , how would you guys rate it for finding  finding it once it's lost ?


Os on a scale of one to seven , how would you guys rate it for finding  finding it once it's lost ?


Okay. Number number one for the first criteria.


Okay. Number number one for the first criteria.

I think w if it was just the sounder then th  I mean something I've found with uh w w with say tr trying to find uh a cordless phone or a m mobile , you can hear it , but you can't quite pin it dow pin down where it is.


Okay. Number number one for the first criteria.

I think w if it was just the sounder then th  I mean something I've found with uh w w with say tr trying to find uh a cordless phone or a m mobile , you can hear it , but you can't quite pin it dow pin down where it is.

Yeah you can tell what room the mobile is


I think w if it was just the sounder then th  I mean something I've found with uh w w with say tr trying to find uh a cordless phone or a m mobile , you can hear it , but you can't quite pin it dow pin down where it is.

Yeah you can tell what room the mobile is

What about  what if the the volume on the T_V_'s turned up massively and uh you just wanna turn down the volume  can't find remote. Suppose you have to go to the T_V_ and do it manually. Mm.


Yeah you can tell what room the mobile is

What about  what if the the volume on the T_V_'s turned up massively and uh you just wanna turn down the volume  can't find remote. Suppose you have to go to the T_V_ and do it manually. Mm.


What about  what if the the volume on the T_V_'s turned up massively and uh you just wanna turn down the volume  can't find remote. Suppose you have to go to the T_V_ and do it manually. Mm.


just before we go through all of the steps here , um well what we'll do is


just before we go through all of the steps here , um well what we'll do is

um if we can look at the criteria you're gonna evaluate , and then we'll come back to the product evaluation if that's alright.


um if we can look at the criteria you're gonna evaluate , and then we'll come back to the product evaluation if that's alright.


Um so is there anything here that you that you wanted to cover as in the criteria that you've covered ? And then we'll come back pretty much promptly to this.


Um so is there anything here that you that you wanted to cover as in the criteria that you've covered ? And then we'll come back pretty much promptly to this.

What do you mean cr is there anything I wanna


Um so is there anything here that you that you wanted to cover as in the criteria that you've covered ? And then we'll come back pretty much promptly to this.

What do you mean cr is there anything I wanna

I is there any of these criteria that need any explaining ? Or is there anything that yous thought tha really would stand out compared to the others ?


Um so is there anything here that you that you wanted to cover as in the criteria that you've covered ? And then we'll come back pretty much promptly to this.

What do you mean cr is there anything I wanna

I is there any of these criteria that need any explaining ? Or is there anything that yous thought tha really would stand out compared to the others ?

Um , a few.  Something I neglected from my initial research is that Real Reactions has a a goal strategy that all of the products be inspired by material fashion , and clothing fashion. That is why fruit and veg being popular in the home and in clothing was important and they want all their products to be somehow inspired by current trends in fashion. So they say we put the fashion in electronics , well they really mean it they they're very big on fashion ,


What do you mean cr is there anything I wanna

I is there any of these criteria that need any explaining ? Or is there anything that yous thought tha really would stand out compared to the others ?

Um , a few.  Something I neglected from my initial research is that Real Reactions has a a goal strategy that all of the products be inspired by material fashion , and clothing fashion. That is why fruit and veg being popular in the home and in clothing was important and they want all their products to be somehow inspired by current trends in fashion. So they say we put the fashion in electronics , well they really mean it they they're very big on fashion ,


I is there any of these criteria that need any explaining ? Or is there anything that yous thought tha really would stand out compared to the others ?

Um , a few.  Something I neglected from my initial research is that Real Reactions has a a goal strategy that all of the products be inspired by material fashion , and clothing fashion. That is why fruit and veg being popular in the home and in clothing was important and they want all their products to be somehow inspired by current trends in fashion. So they say we put the fashion in electronics , well they really mean it they they're very big on fashion ,

so. That's this bit right here. And uh this bit is this one easy to use for visitors or for anybody ? I guess it's just the same as saying easy to use interface , so it's kinda condensed into one. And we can come back to it , you said.


Um , a few.  Something I neglected from my initial research is that Real Reactions has a a goal strategy that all of the products be inspired by material fashion , and clothing fashion. That is why fruit and veg being popular in the home and in clothing was important and they want all their products to be somehow inspired by current trends in fashion. So they say we put the fashion in electronics , well they really mean it they they're very big on fashion ,

so. That's this bit right here. And uh this bit is this one easy to use for visitors or for anybody ? I guess it's just the same as saying easy to use interface , so it's kinda condensed into one. And we can come back to it , you said.


so. That's this bit right here. And uh this bit is this one easy to use for visitors or for anybody ? I guess it's just the same as saying easy to use interface , so it's kinda condensed into one. And we can come back to it , you said.


so. That's this bit right here. And uh this bit is this one easy to use for visitors or for anybody ? I guess it's just the same as saying easy to use interface , so it's kinda condensed into one. And we can come back to it , you said.

No and which we will do very very shortly. Um. Okay. Slight problem we had was that we have an amazing four Euros over budget for what we were hoping to do. Um most of it stems from the use of the L_C_D_ which I think in the end accounted for about half of our expenditure because of course we required a chip as well. Um the only way to get this down was either to ditch the a L_C_D_ , at which point we've removed a large part of how we were gonna interface ,  require more buttons , etcetera. Or what we did was that we um we as in I as I was quickly going over it was altering the actual structure. Um changing it to plastic and a solid unit with a single curve design would allow us to come back into the um proposed costs and we're just scraping it in , we've got point two of a Euro left over there. So we're just managing it really. Even then as well , um there was no criteria technically defined for a joystick so I've used what I think's appropriate. With any luck that won't mean that we've incurred more cost than we can actually afford to. It blows a lot of our really good ideas kind of slightly to one side , for example the possibility of having a U_S_B_ connection is definitely not viable now. Um.


No and which we will do very very shortly. Um. Okay. Slight problem we had was that we have an amazing four Euros over budget for what we were hoping to do. Um most of it stems from the use of the L_C_D_ which I think in the end accounted for about half of our expenditure because of course we required a chip as well. Um the only way to get this down was either to ditch the a L_C_D_ , at which point we've removed a large part of how we were gonna interface ,  require more buttons , etcetera. Or what we did was that we um we as in I as I was quickly going over it was altering the actual structure. Um changing it to plastic and a solid unit with a single curve design would allow us to come back into the um proposed costs and we're just scraping it in , we've got point two of a Euro left over there. So we're just managing it really. Even then as well , um there was no criteria technically defined for a joystick so I've used what I think's appropriate. With any luck that won't mean that we've incurred more cost than we can actually afford to. It blows a lot of our really good ideas kind of slightly to one side , for example the possibility of having a U_S_B_ connection is definitely not viable now. Um.


No and which we will do very very shortly. Um. Okay. Slight problem we had was that we have an amazing four Euros over budget for what we were hoping to do. Um most of it stems from the use of the L_C_D_ which I think in the end accounted for about half of our expenditure because of course we required a chip as well. Um the only way to get this down was either to ditch the a L_C_D_ , at which point we've removed a large part of how we were gonna interface ,  require more buttons , etcetera. Or what we did was that we um we as in I as I was quickly going over it was altering the actual structure. Um changing it to plastic and a solid unit with a single curve design would allow us to come back into the um proposed costs and we're just scraping it in , we've got point two of a Euro left over there. So we're just managing it really. Even then as well , um there was no criteria technically defined for a joystick so I've used what I think's appropriate. With any luck that won't mean that we've incurred more cost than we can actually afford to. It blows a lot of our really good ideas kind of slightly to one side , for example the possibility of having a U_S_B_ connection is definitely not viable now. Um.

That should still be viable. We've got an advanced chip , we've got the use of the L_C_D_. So being able to communicate in multiple languages is still very much a possibility.


That should still be viable. We've got an advanced chip , we've got the use of the L_C_D_. So being able to communicate in multiple languages is still very much a possibility.

Um but what's something we need to decide on is how we're gonna go from here.  We do need to try and come up with an idea which could be continued with other people if need be. Um. We can I can bring the excel up sheet up and uh show you if you wish um. I really think as m much as it pains me is that we might have to go with plastic and some kind of solid design , possibly meaning that the L_C_D_ wouldn't be in this perfect place. It might be s stuck like slightly between what would be good for left handed and what would be good for a right handed person.


That should still be viable. We've got an advanced chip , we've got the use of the L_C_D_. So being able to communicate in multiple languages is still very much a possibility.

Um but what's something we need to decide on is how we're gonna go from here.  We do need to try and come up with an idea which could be continued with other people if need be. Um. We can I can bring the excel up sheet up and uh show you if you wish um. I really think as m much as it pains me is that we might have to go with plastic and some kind of solid design , possibly meaning that the L_C_D_ wouldn't be in this perfect place. It might be s stuck like slightly between what would be good for left handed and what would be good for a right handed person.

Mm-hmm I suppose o one thing that could be done is h  is have it um circular and have it s  so that the uh the pink  actually goes a bit over the pinkie finger. Mm.


Um but what's something we need to decide on is how we're gonna go from here.  We do need to try and come up with an idea which could be continued with other people if need be. Um. We can I can bring the excel up sheet up and uh show you if you wish um. I really think as m much as it pains me is that we might have to go with plastic and some kind of solid design , possibly meaning that the L_C_D_ wouldn't be in this perfect place. It might be s stuck like slightly between what would be good for left handed and what would be good for a right handed person.

Mm-hmm I suppose o one thing that could be done is h  is have it um circular and have it s  so that the uh the pink  actually goes a bit over the pinkie finger. Mm.


Mm-hmm I suppose o one thing that could be done is h  is have it um circular and have it s  so that the uh the pink  actually goes a bit over the pinkie finger. Mm.


It very much is about making concessions , unfortunately. Um.


It very much is about making concessions , unfortunately. Um.

Do you have any data on how much um different prints cost ? I mean can you get the entire thing printed with a design um ?


It very much is about making concessions , unfortunately. Um.

Do you have any data on how much um different prints cost ? I mean can you get the entire thing printed with a design um ?

Um b b b da is  you mean on the plastic , or ?