Yeah and th the  the other thing is I 'm not pos I 'm sort of thinking as we 've been through this a few times , that I really don't know  maybe you wanna do it once for the novelty , but I don't know if in general we wanna have meetings that we record from outside this group do the digits.

Because it 's just an added bunch of weird stuff.


Because it 's just an added bunch of weird stuff.

And , you know , we  we h we 're highly motivated. Uh in fact , the morning group is really motivated cuz they 're working on connected digits , so it 's


Because it 's just an added bunch of weird stuff.

And , you know , we  we h we 're highly motivated. Uh in fact , the morning group is really motivated cuz they 're working on connected digits , so it 's

Actually that 's something I wanted to ask , is I have a bunch of scripts to help with the transcription of the digits.


And , you know , we  we h we 're highly motivated. Uh in fact , the morning group is really motivated cuz they 're working on connected digits , so it 's

Actually that 's something I wanted to ask , is I have a bunch of scripts to help with the transcription of the digits.


And , you know , we  we h we 're highly motivated. Uh in fact , the morning group is really motivated cuz they 're working on connected digits , so it 's

Actually that 's something I wanted to ask , is I have a bunch of scripts to help with the transcription of the digits.

We don't have to hand - transcribe the digits because we 're reading them and I have those.


Actually that 's something I wanted to ask , is I have a bunch of scripts to help with the transcription of the digits.

We don't have to hand - transcribe the digits because we 're reading them and I have those.


We don't have to hand - transcribe the digits because we 're reading them and I have those.


We don't have to hand - transcribe the digits because we 're reading them and I have those.

And so I have some scripts that let you very quickly extract the sections of each utterance. But I haven't been ru I haven't been doing that. Um , if I did that , is someone gonna be working on it ?


And so I have some scripts that let you very quickly extract the sections of each utterance. But I haven't been ru I haven't been doing that. Um , if I did that , is someone gonna be working on it ?

Uh , yeah , I  I think definitely s so Absolutely.


And so I have some scripts that let you very quickly extract the sections of each utterance. But I haven't been ru I haven't been doing that. Um , if I did that , is someone gonna be working on it ?

Uh , yeah , I  I think definitely s so Absolutely.

Yeah , whoever we have working on the acoustics for the Meeting Recorder are gonna start with that.


Uh , yeah , I  I think definitely s so Absolutely.

Yeah , whoever we have working on the acoustics for the Meeting Recorder are gonna start with that.

OK. I mean , I I 'm  I 'm interested in it , I just don't have time to do it now.


Yeah , whoever we have working on the acoustics for the Meeting Recorder are gonna start with that.

OK. I mean , I I 'm  I 'm interested in it , I just don't have time to do it now.

I was  these meetings  I 'm sure someone thought of this , but these  this uh reading of the numbers would be extremely helpful to do um adaptation.


OK. I mean , I I 'm  I 'm interested in it , I just don't have time to do it now.

I was  these meetings  I 'm sure someone thought of this , but these  this uh reading of the numbers would be extremely helpful to do um adaptation.


I was  these meetings  I 'm sure someone thought of this , but these  this uh reading of the numbers would be extremely helpful to do um adaptation.


I  I would really like someone to do adaptation.


I  I would really like someone to do adaptation.

So if we got someone interested in that , I think it would be great for Meeting Recorder.


I  I would really like someone to do adaptation.

So if we got someone interested in that , I think it would be great for Meeting Recorder.

Well  I mean , one of the things I wanted to do , uh , that I I talked to  to Don about , is one of the possible things he could do or m also , we could have someone else do it , is to do block echo cancellation ,


So if we got someone interested in that , I think it would be great for Meeting Recorder.

Well  I mean , one of the things I wanted to do , uh , that I I talked to  to Don about , is one of the possible things he could do or m also , we could have someone else do it , is to do block echo cancellation ,

Since it 's the same people over and over.


Well  I mean , one of the things I wanted to do , uh , that I I talked to  to Don about , is one of the possible things he could do or m also , we could have someone else do it , is to do block echo cancellation ,

Since it 's the same people over and over.

to try to get rid of some of the effects of the  the  the far - field effects. Um , I mean we have  the party line has been that echo cancellation is not the right way to handle the situation


Since it 's the same people over and over.

to try to get rid of some of the effects of the  the  the far - field effects. Um , I mean we have  the party line has been that echo cancellation is not the right way to handle the situation


to try to get rid of some of the effects of the  the  the far - field effects. Um , I mean we have  the party line has been that echo cancellation is not the right way to handle the situation

because people move around , and uh , if  if it 's  if it 's uh not a simple echo , like a cross - talk kind of echo , but it 's actually room acoustics , it 's  it 's  it 's  you can't really do inversion ,


because people move around , and uh , if  if it 's  if it 's uh not a simple echo , like a cross - talk kind of echo , but it 's actually room acoustics , it 's  it 's  it 's  you can't really do inversion ,

and even echo cancellation is going to uh be something  It may  you  Someone may be moving enough that you are not able to adapt quickly and so the tack that we 've taken is more " lets come up with feature approaches and multi - stream approaches and so forth , that will be robust to it for the recognizer and not try to create a clean signal ".


and even echo cancellation is going to uh be something  It may  you  Someone may be moving enough that you are not able to adapt quickly and so the tack that we 've taken is more " lets come up with feature approaches and multi - stream approaches and so forth , that will be robust to it for the recognizer and not try to create a clean signal ".

Uh , that 's the party line. But it occurred to me a few months ago that uh party lines are always , you know , sort of dangerous. It 's good   good to sort of test them , actually. And so we haven't had anybody try to do a good serious job on echo cancellation and we should know how well that can do. So that 's something I 'd like somebody to do at some point , just take these digits , take the far - field mike signal , and the close uh mike signal , and apply really good echo cancellation. Um , there was a  have been some nice talks recently by  by Lucent on  on their b


Uh , that 's the party line. But it occurred to me a few months ago that uh party lines are always , you know , sort of dangerous. It 's good   good to sort of test them , actually. And so we haven't had anybody try to do a good serious job on echo cancellation and we should know how well that can do. So that 's something I 'd like somebody to do at some point , just take these digits , take the far - field mike signal , and the close uh mike signal , and apply really good echo cancellation. Um , there was a  have been some nice talks recently by  by Lucent on  on their b

the block echo cancellation particularly appealed to me , uh you know , trying and change it sample by sample , but you have some reasonable sized blocks.  And um , you know , th


Uh , that 's the party line. But it occurred to me a few months ago that uh party lines are always , you know , sort of dangerous. It 's good   good to sort of test them , actually. And so we haven't had anybody try to do a good serious job on echo cancellation and we should know how well that can do. So that 's something I 'd like somebody to do at some point , just take these digits , take the far - field mike signal , and the close uh mike signal , and apply really good echo cancellation. Um , there was a  have been some nice talks recently by  by Lucent on  on their b

the block echo cancellation particularly appealed to me , uh you know , trying and change it sample by sample , but you have some reasonable sized blocks.  And um , you know , th

W what is the um  the artifact you try to  you 're trying to get rid of when you do that ?


the block echo cancellation particularly appealed to me , uh you know , trying and change it sample by sample , but you have some reasonable sized blocks.  And um , you know , th

W what is the um  the artifact you try to  you 're trying to get rid of when you do that ?


the block echo cancellation particularly appealed to me , uh you know , trying and change it sample by sample , but you have some reasonable sized blocks.  And um , you know , th

W what is the um  the artifact you try to  you 're trying to get rid of when you do that ?

Uh so it 's  it  you have a  a direct uh  Uh , what 's the difference in  If you were trying to construct a linear filter , that would um


W what is the um  the artifact you try to  you 're trying to get rid of when you do that ?

Uh so it 's  it  you have a  a direct uh  Uh , what 's the difference in  If you were trying to construct a linear filter , that would um


Uh so it 's  it  you have a  a direct uh  Uh , what 's the difference in  If you were trying to construct a linear filter , that would um

Yeah. that would subtract off  the um uh parts of the signal that were the aspects of the signal that were different between the close - talk and the distant. You know , so  so uh um I guess in most echo cancellation  Yeah , so you  Given that um  Yeah , so you 're trying to  So you 'd  There 's a  a distance between the close and the distant mikes so there 's a time delay there , and after the time delay , there 's these various reflections. And if you figure out well what 's the  there 's a  a least squares algorithm that adjusts itself  adjusts the weight so that you try to subtract  essentially to subtract off uh different uh  different reflections. Right ? So let 's take the simple case where you just had  you had some uh some delay in a satellite connection or something and then there 's a  there 's an echo. It comes back. And you want to adjust this filter so that it will maximally reduce the effect of this echo.


Uh so it 's  it  you have a  a direct uh  Uh , what 's the difference in  If you were trying to construct a linear filter , that would um

Yeah. that would subtract off  the um uh parts of the signal that were the aspects of the signal that were different between the close - talk and the distant. You know , so  so uh um I guess in most echo cancellation  Yeah , so you  Given that um  Yeah , so you 're trying to  So you 'd  There 's a  a distance between the close and the distant mikes so there 's a time delay there , and after the time delay , there 's these various reflections. And if you figure out well what 's the  there 's a  a least squares algorithm that adjusts itself  adjusts the weight so that you try to subtract  essentially to subtract off uh different uh  different reflections. Right ? So let 's take the simple case where you just had  you had some uh some delay in a satellite connection or something and then there 's a  there 's an echo. It comes back. And you want to adjust this filter so that it will maximally reduce the effect of this echo.

So that would mean like if you were listening to the data that was recorded on one of those. Uh , just the raw data , you would  you might hear kind of an echo ? And  and then this  noise cancellation would get


Yeah. that would subtract off  the um uh parts of the signal that were the aspects of the signal that were different between the close - talk and the distant. You know , so  so uh um I guess in most echo cancellation  Yeah , so you  Given that um  Yeah , so you 're trying to  So you 'd  There 's a  a distance between the close and the distant mikes so there 's a time delay there , and after the time delay , there 's these various reflections. And if you figure out well what 's the  there 's a  a least squares algorithm that adjusts itself  adjusts the weight so that you try to subtract  essentially to subtract off uh different uh  different reflections. Right ? So let 's take the simple case where you just had  you had some uh some delay in a satellite connection or something and then there 's a  there 's an echo. It comes back. And you want to adjust this filter so that it will maximally reduce the effect of this echo.

So that would mean like if you were listening to the data that was recorded on one of those. Uh , just the raw data , you would  you might hear kind of an echo ? And  and then this  noise cancellation would get

Well , I 'm  I 'm  I 'm saying  That 's a simplified version of what 's really happening.  What 's really happening is  Well , when I 'm talking to you right now , you 're getting the direct sound from my speech , but you 're also getting , uh , the indirect sound that 's bounced around the room a number of times. OK ? So now , if you um try to r you  To completely remove the effect of that is sort of impractical for a number of technical reasons , but I  but  not to try to completely remove it , that is , invert the  the room response , but just to try to uh uh eliminate some of the  the effect of some of the echos. Um , a number of people have done this so that , say , if you 're talking to a speakerphone , uh it makes it more like it would be , if you were talking right up to it. So this is sort of the st the straight - forward approach. You say I  I  I want to use this uh  this item but I want to subtract off various kinds of echos. So you construct a filter , and you have this  this filtered version uh of the speech um gets uh uh  gets subtracted off from the original speech. Then you try to  you try to minimize the energy in some sense. And so um  uh with some constraints.


So that would mean like if you were listening to the data that was recorded on one of those. Uh , just the raw data , you would  you might hear kind of an echo ? And  and then this  noise cancellation would get

Well , I 'm  I 'm  I 'm saying  That 's a simplified version of what 's really happening.  What 's really happening is  Well , when I 'm talking to you right now , you 're getting the direct sound from my speech , but you 're also getting , uh , the indirect sound that 's bounced around the room a number of times. OK ? So now , if you um try to r you  To completely remove the effect of that is sort of impractical for a number of technical reasons , but I  but  not to try to completely remove it , that is , invert the  the room response , but just to try to uh uh eliminate some of the  the effect of some of the echos. Um , a number of people have done this so that , say , if you 're talking to a speakerphone , uh it makes it more like it would be , if you were talking right up to it. So this is sort of the st the straight - forward approach. You say I  I  I want to use this uh  this item but I want to subtract off various kinds of echos. So you construct a filter , and you have this  this filtered version uh of the speech um gets uh uh  gets subtracted off from the original speech. Then you try to  you try to minimize the energy in some sense. And so um  uh with some constraints.


Well , I 'm  I 'm  I 'm saying  That 's a simplified version of what 's really happening.  What 's really happening is  Well , when I 'm talking to you right now , you 're getting the direct sound from my speech , but you 're also getting , uh , the indirect sound that 's bounced around the room a number of times. OK ? So now , if you um try to r you  To completely remove the effect of that is sort of impractical for a number of technical reasons , but I  but  not to try to completely remove it , that is , invert the  the room response , but just to try to uh uh eliminate some of the  the effect of some of the echos. Um , a number of people have done this so that , say , if you 're talking to a speakerphone , uh it makes it more like it would be , if you were talking right up to it. So this is sort of the st the straight - forward approach. You say I  I  I want to use this uh  this item but I want to subtract off various kinds of echos. So you construct a filter , and you have this  this filtered version uh of the speech um gets uh uh  gets subtracted off from the original speech. Then you try to  you try to minimize the energy in some sense. And so um  uh with some constraints.


So , echo cancelling is  is , you know , commonly done in telephony , and  and  and it 's sort of the obvious thing to do in this situation if you  if , you know , you 're gonna be talking some distance from a mike.


So , echo cancelling is  is , you know , commonly done in telephony , and  and  and it 's sort of the obvious thing to do in this situation if you  if , you know , you 're gonna be talking some distance from a mike.

When uh , I would have meetings with the folks in Cambridge when I was at BBN over the phone , they had a um  some kind of a special speaker phone and when they would first connect me , it would come on and we 'd hear all this noise. And then it was uh  And then it would come on and it was very clear ,


When uh , I would have meetings with the folks in Cambridge when I was at BBN over the phone , they had a um  some kind of a special speaker phone and when they would first connect me , it would come on and we 'd hear all this noise. And then it was uh  And then it would come on and it was very clear ,

Right. So it 's taking samples , it 's doing adaptation , it 's adjusting weights , and then it 's getting the sum. So um , uh anyway that 's  that 's kind of a reasonable thing that I 'd like to have somebody try  somebody look  And  and the digits would be a reasonable thing to do that with. I think that 'd be enough data  plenty of data to do that with , and i for that sort of task you wouldn't care whether it was uh large vocabulary speech or anything. Uh.  Um


Right. So it 's taking samples , it 's doing adaptation , it 's adjusting weights , and then it 's getting the sum. So um , uh anyway that 's  that 's kind of a reasonable thing that I 'd like to have somebody try  somebody look  And  and the digits would be a reasonable thing to do that with. I think that 'd be enough data  plenty of data to do that with , and i for that sort of task you wouldn't care whether it was uh large vocabulary speech or anything. Uh.  Um

Is Brian Kingsbury 's work related to that , or is it a different type of reverberation ?


Right. So it 's taking samples , it 's doing adaptation , it 's adjusting weights , and then it 's getting the sum. So um , uh anyway that 's  that 's kind of a reasonable thing that I 'd like to have somebody try  somebody look  And  and the digits would be a reasonable thing to do that with. I think that 'd be enough data  plenty of data to do that with , and i for that sort of task you wouldn't care whether it was uh large vocabulary speech or anything. Uh.  Um

Is Brian Kingsbury 's work related to that , or is it a different type of reverberation ?

Brian 's  Kingsbury 's work is an example of what we did f f from the opposite dogma. Right ? Which is what I was calling the " party line " , which is that uh doing that sort of thing is not really what we want. We want something more flexible , uh i i where people might change their position , and there might be , you know  There 's also um oh yeah , noise. So the echo cancellation does not really allow for noise. It 's if you have a clean situation but you just have some delays , Then we 'll figure out the right  the right set of weights for your taps for your filter in order to produce the effect of those  those echos. But um if there 's noise , then the very signal that it 's looking at is corrupted so that it 's decision about what the right  you know , right  right uh  delays are  is , uh  is  right delayed signal is  is  is  uh is incorrect. And so , in a noisy situation , um , also in a  in a situation that 's very reverberant   with long reverberation times  and really long delays , it 's  it 's sort of typically impractical. So for those kind of reasons , and also a  a c a complete inversion , if you actually  I mentioned that it 's kind of hard to really do the inversion of the room acoustics. Um , that 's difficult because um often times the  the um   the system transfer function is such that when it 's inverted you get something that 's unstable , and so , if you  you do your estimate of what the system is , and then you try to invert it , you get a filter that actually uh , you know , rings , and  and uh goes to infinity. So it 's  so there 's  there 's  there 's that sort of technical reason , and the fact that things move , and there 's air currents  I mean there 's all sorts of  all sorts of reasons why it 's not really practical. So for all those kinds of reasons , uh we  we  we sort of um , concluded we didn't want to in do inversion , and we 're even pretty skeptical of echo cancellation , which isn't really inversion , and um we decided to do this approach of taking  uh , just picking uh features , which were  uh will give you more  something that was more stable , in the presence of , or absence of , room reverberation , and that 's what Brian was trying to do. So , um , let me just say a couple things that I was  I was gonna bring up. Uh. Let 's see. I guess you  you actually already said this thing about the uh  about the consent forms , which was that we now don't have to  So this was the human subjects folks who said this ,  or that  that  ?


Right. So it 's taking samples , it 's doing adaptation , it 's adjusting weights , and then it 's getting the sum. So um , uh anyway that 's  that 's kind of a reasonable thing that I 'd like to have somebody try  somebody look  And  and the digits would be a reasonable thing to do that with. I think that 'd be enough data  plenty of data to do that with , and i for that sort of task you wouldn't care whether it was uh large vocabulary speech or anything. Uh.  Um

Is Brian Kingsbury 's work related to that , or is it a different type of reverberation ?

Brian 's  Kingsbury 's work is an example of what we did f f from the opposite dogma. Right ? Which is what I was calling the " party line " , which is that uh doing that sort of thing is not really what we want. We want something more flexible , uh i i where people might change their position , and there might be , you know  There 's also um oh yeah , noise. So the echo cancellation does not really allow for noise. It 's if you have a clean situation but you just have some delays , Then we 'll figure out the right  the right set of weights for your taps for your filter in order to produce the effect of those  those echos. But um if there 's noise , then the very signal that it 's looking at is corrupted so that it 's decision about what the right  you know , right  right uh  delays are  is , uh  is  right delayed signal is  is  is  uh is incorrect. And so , in a noisy situation , um , also in a  in a situation that 's very reverberant   with long reverberation times  and really long delays , it 's  it 's sort of typically impractical. So for those kind of reasons , and also a  a c a complete inversion , if you actually  I mentioned that it 's kind of hard to really do the inversion of the room acoustics. Um , that 's difficult because um often times the  the um   the system transfer function is such that when it 's inverted you get something that 's unstable , and so , if you  you do your estimate of what the system is , and then you try to invert it , you get a filter that actually uh , you know , rings , and  and uh goes to infinity. So it 's  so there 's  there 's  there 's that sort of technical reason , and the fact that things move , and there 's air currents  I mean there 's all sorts of  all sorts of reasons why it 's not really practical. So for all those kinds of reasons , uh we  we  we sort of um , concluded we didn't want to in do inversion , and we 're even pretty skeptical of echo cancellation , which isn't really inversion , and um we decided to do this approach of taking  uh , just picking uh features , which were  uh will give you more  something that was more stable , in the presence of , or absence of , room reverberation , and that 's what Brian was trying to do. So , um , let me just say a couple things that I was  I was gonna bring up. Uh. Let 's see. I guess you  you actually already said this thing about the uh  about the consent forms , which was that we now don't have to  So this was the human subjects folks who said this ,  or that  that  ?

The a apparently  I mean , we 're gonna do a revised form , of course. Um but once a person has signed it once , then that 's valid for a certain number of meetings. She wanted me to actually estimate how many meetings and put that on the consent form. I told her that would be a little bit difficult to say. So I think from a s practical standpoint , maybe we could have them do it once every ten meetings , or something. It won't be that many people who do it  that often , but um just , you know , so long as they don't forget that they 've done it , I guess.


Is Brian Kingsbury 's work related to that , or is it a different type of reverberation ?

Brian 's  Kingsbury 's work is an example of what we did f f from the opposite dogma. Right ? Which is what I was calling the " party line " , which is that uh doing that sort of thing is not really what we want. We want something more flexible , uh i i where people might change their position , and there might be , you know  There 's also um oh yeah , noise. So the echo cancellation does not really allow for noise. It 's if you have a clean situation but you just have some delays , Then we 'll figure out the right  the right set of weights for your taps for your filter in order to produce the effect of those  those echos. But um if there 's noise , then the very signal that it 's looking at is corrupted so that it 's decision about what the right  you know , right  right uh  delays are  is , uh  is  right delayed signal is  is  is  uh is incorrect. And so , in a noisy situation , um , also in a  in a situation that 's very reverberant   with long reverberation times  and really long delays , it 's  it 's sort of typically impractical. So for those kind of reasons , and also a  a c a complete inversion , if you actually  I mentioned that it 's kind of hard to really do the inversion of the room acoustics. Um , that 's difficult because um often times the  the um   the system transfer function is such that when it 's inverted you get something that 's unstable , and so , if you  you do your estimate of what the system is , and then you try to invert it , you get a filter that actually uh , you know , rings , and  and uh goes to infinity. So it 's  so there 's  there 's  there 's that sort of technical reason , and the fact that things move , and there 's air currents  I mean there 's all sorts of  all sorts of reasons why it 's not really practical. So for all those kinds of reasons , uh we  we  we sort of um , concluded we didn't want to in do inversion , and we 're even pretty skeptical of echo cancellation , which isn't really inversion , and um we decided to do this approach of taking  uh , just picking uh features , which were  uh will give you more  something that was more stable , in the presence of , or absence of , room reverberation , and that 's what Brian was trying to do. So , um , let me just say a couple things that I was  I was gonna bring up. Uh. Let 's see. I guess you  you actually already said this thing about the uh  about the consent forms , which was that we now don't have to  So this was the human subjects folks who said this ,  or that  that  ?

The a apparently  I mean , we 're gonna do a revised form , of course. Um but once a person has signed it once , then that 's valid for a certain number of meetings. She wanted me to actually estimate how many meetings and put that on the consent form. I told her that would be a little bit difficult to say. So I think from a s practical standpoint , maybe we could have them do it once every ten meetings , or something. It won't be that many people who do it  that often , but um just , you know , so long as they don't forget that they 've done it , I guess.

OK. Um , back on the data thing , so there 's this sort of one hour , ten hour , a hundred hour sort of thing that  that we have. We have  we have an hour uh that  that is transcribed , we have  we have twelve hours that 's recorded but not transcribed , and at the rate we 're going , uh by the end of the semester we 'll have , I don't know , forty or fifty or something , if we  if this really uh  Well , do we have that much ?


Brian 's  Kingsbury 's work is an example of what we did f f from the opposite dogma. Right ? Which is what I was calling the " party line " , which is that uh doing that sort of thing is not really what we want. We want something more flexible , uh i i where people might change their position , and there might be , you know  There 's also um oh yeah , noise. So the echo cancellation does not really allow for noise. It 's if you have a clean situation but you just have some delays , Then we 'll figure out the right  the right set of weights for your taps for your filter in order to produce the effect of those  those echos. But um if there 's noise , then the very signal that it 's looking at is corrupted so that it 's decision about what the right  you know , right  right uh  delays are  is , uh  is  right delayed signal is  is  is  uh is incorrect. And so , in a noisy situation , um , also in a  in a situation that 's very reverberant   with long reverberation times  and really long delays , it 's  it 's sort of typically impractical. So for those kind of reasons , and also a  a c a complete inversion , if you actually  I mentioned that it 's kind of hard to really do the inversion of the room acoustics. Um , that 's difficult because um often times the  the um   the system transfer function is such that when it 's inverted you get something that 's unstable , and so , if you  you do your estimate of what the system is , and then you try to invert it , you get a filter that actually uh , you know , rings , and  and uh goes to infinity. So it 's  so there 's  there 's  there 's that sort of technical reason , and the fact that things move , and there 's air currents  I mean there 's all sorts of  all sorts of reasons why it 's not really practical. So for all those kinds of reasons , uh we  we  we sort of um , concluded we didn't want to in do inversion , and we 're even pretty skeptical of echo cancellation , which isn't really inversion , and um we decided to do this approach of taking  uh , just picking uh features , which were  uh will give you more  something that was more stable , in the presence of , or absence of , room reverberation , and that 's what Brian was trying to do. So , um , let me just say a couple things that I was  I was gonna bring up. Uh. Let 's see. I guess you  you actually already said this thing about the uh  about the consent forms , which was that we now don't have to  So this was the human subjects folks who said this ,  or that  that  ?

The a apparently  I mean , we 're gonna do a revised form , of course. Um but once a person has signed it once , then that 's valid for a certain number of meetings. She wanted me to actually estimate how many meetings and put that on the consent form. I told her that would be a little bit difficult to say. So I think from a s practical standpoint , maybe we could have them do it once every ten meetings , or something. It won't be that many people who do it  that often , but um just , you know , so long as they don't forget that they 've done it , I guess.

OK. Um , back on the data thing , so there 's this sort of one hour , ten hour , a hundred hour sort of thing that  that we have. We have  we have an hour uh that  that is transcribed , we have  we have twelve hours that 's recorded but not transcribed , and at the rate we 're going , uh by the end of the semester we 'll have , I don't know , forty or fifty or something , if we  if this really uh  Well , do we have that much ?

Not really. It 's three to four per week.


The a apparently  I mean , we 're gonna do a revised form , of course. Um but once a person has signed it once , then that 's valid for a certain number of meetings. She wanted me to actually estimate how many meetings and put that on the consent form. I told her that would be a little bit difficult to say. So I think from a s practical standpoint , maybe we could have them do it once every ten meetings , or something. It won't be that many people who do it  that often , but um just , you know , so long as they don't forget that they 've done it , I guess.

OK. Um , back on the data thing , so there 's this sort of one hour , ten hour , a hundred hour sort of thing that  that we have. We have  we have an hour uh that  that is transcribed , we have  we have twelve hours that 's recorded but not transcribed , and at the rate we 're going , uh by the end of the semester we 'll have , I don't know , forty or fifty or something , if we  if this really uh  Well , do we have that much ?

Not really. It 's three to four per week.


OK. Um , back on the data thing , so there 's this sort of one hour , ten hour , a hundred hour sort of thing that  that we have. We have  we have an hour uh that  that is transcribed , we have  we have twelve hours that 's recorded but not transcribed , and at the rate we 're going , uh by the end of the semester we 'll have , I don't know , forty or fifty or something , if we  if this really uh  Well , do we have that much ?

Not really. It 's three to four per week.


Not really. It 's three to four per week.


Eight weeks times three hours is twenty - four , so that 's  Yeah , so like thirty  thirty hours ?


Eight weeks times three hours is twenty - four , so that 's  Yeah , so like thirty  thirty hours ?

Yeah. I mean , is there  I know this sounds  tough but we 've got the room set up. Um I was starting to think of some projects where you would use well , similar to what we talked about with uh energy detection on the close - talking mikes. There are a number of interesting questions that you can ask about how interactions happen in a meeting , that don't require any transcription. So what are the patterns , the energy patterns over the meeting ? And I 'm really interested in this  but we don't have a whole lot of data. So I was thinking , you know , we 've got the room set up and you can always think of , also for political reasons , if ICSI collected you know , two hundred hours , that looks different than forty hours , even if we don't transcribe it ourselves ,


Eight weeks times three hours is twenty - four , so that 's  Yeah , so like thirty  thirty hours ?

Yeah. I mean , is there  I know this sounds  tough but we 've got the room set up. Um I was starting to think of some projects where you would use well , similar to what we talked about with uh energy detection on the close - talking mikes. There are a number of interesting questions that you can ask about how interactions happen in a meeting , that don't require any transcription. So what are the patterns , the energy patterns over the meeting ? And I 'm really interested in this  but we don't have a whole lot of data. So I was thinking , you know , we 've got the room set up and you can always think of , also for political reasons , if ICSI collected you know , two hundred hours , that looks different than forty hours , even if we don't transcribe it ourselves ,

But I don't think we 're gonna stop at the end of this semester.


Yeah. I mean , is there  I know this sounds  tough but we 've got the room set up. Um I was starting to think of some projects where you would use well , similar to what we talked about with uh energy detection on the close - talking mikes. There are a number of interesting questions that you can ask about how interactions happen in a meeting , that don't require any transcription. So what are the patterns , the energy patterns over the meeting ? And I 'm really interested in this  but we don't have a whole lot of data. So I was thinking , you know , we 've got the room set up and you can always think of , also for political reasons , if ICSI collected you know , two hundred hours , that looks different than forty hours , even if we don't transcribe it ourselves ,

But I don't think we 're gonna stop at the end of this semester.


Yeah. I mean , is there  I know this sounds  tough but we 've got the room set up. Um I was starting to think of some projects where you would use well , similar to what we talked about with uh energy detection on the close - talking mikes. There are a number of interesting questions that you can ask about how interactions happen in a meeting , that don't require any transcription. So what are the patterns , the energy patterns over the meeting ? And I 'm really interested in this  but we don't have a whole lot of data. So I was thinking , you know , we 've got the room set up and you can always think of , also for political reasons , if ICSI collected you know , two hundred hours , that looks different than forty hours , even if we don't transcribe it ourselves ,

But I don't think we 're gonna stop at the end of this semester.

Right ? So , I th I think that if we are able to keep that up for a few months , we are gonna have more like a hundred hours.


But I don't think we 're gonna stop at the end of this semester.

Right ? So , I th I think that if we are able to keep that up for a few months , we are gonna have more like a hundred hours.

I mean , is there  Are there any other meetings here that we can record , especially meetings that have some kind of conflict in them  or some kind of deci I mean , that are less well  I don't  uh , that have some more emotional aspects to them , or strong


Right ? So , I th I think that if we are able to keep that up for a few months , we are gonna have more like a hundred hours.

I mean , is there  Are there any other meetings here that we can record , especially meetings that have some kind of conflict in them  or some kind of deci I mean , that are less well  I don't  uh , that have some more emotional aspects to them , or strong


Right ? So , I th I think that if we are able to keep that up for a few months , we are gonna have more like a hundred hours.

I mean , is there  Are there any other meetings here that we can record , especially meetings that have some kind of conflict in them  or some kind of deci I mean , that are less well  I don't  uh , that have some more emotional aspects to them , or strong

There 's laughter , um I 'm talking more about strong differences of opinion meetings , maybe with manager types , or


I mean , is there  Are there any other meetings here that we can record , especially meetings that have some kind of conflict in them  or some kind of deci I mean , that are less well  I don't  uh , that have some more emotional aspects to them , or strong

There 's laughter , um I 'm talking more about strong differences of opinion meetings , maybe with manager types , or


There 's laughter , um I 'm talking more about strong differences of opinion meetings , maybe with manager types , or


There 's laughter , um I 'm talking more about strong differences of opinion meetings , maybe with manager types , or

It 's also likely that people will cancel out afterwards.


It 's also likely that people will cancel out afterwards.


It 's also likely that people will cancel out afterwards.

But I  but I wanted to raise the KPFA idea.


But I  but I wanted to raise the KPFA idea.


But I  but I wanted to raise the KPFA idea.

Oh , that 's a good idea. That 's  That would be a good match.


Oh , that 's a good idea. That 's  That would be a good match.

Yeah. So  Yeah. So I  I  uh , I  I 'd mentioned to Adam , and  that was another thing I was gonna talk  uh , mention to them before   that uh there 's uh  It  it oc it occurred to me that we might be able to get some additional data by talking to uh acquaintances in local broadcast media. Because , you know , we had talked before about the problem about using found data ,  that  that uh it 's just set up however they have it set up and we don't have any say about it and it 's typically one microphone , in a , uh , uh  or  and  and so it doesn't really give us the  the  the uh characteristics we want. Um and so I do think we 're gonna continue recording here and record what we can. But um , it did occur to me that we could go to friends in broadcast media and say " hey you have this panel show ,  or this  you know , this discussion show , and um can you record multi - channel ? " And uh they may be willing to record it uh with


Oh , that 's a good idea. That 's  That would be a good match.

Yeah. So  Yeah. So I  I  uh , I  I 'd mentioned to Adam , and  that was another thing I was gonna talk  uh , mention to them before   that uh there 's uh  It  it oc it occurred to me that we might be able to get some additional data by talking to uh acquaintances in local broadcast media. Because , you know , we had talked before about the problem about using found data ,  that  that uh it 's just set up however they have it set up and we don't have any say about it and it 's typically one microphone , in a , uh , uh  or  and  and so it doesn't really give us the  the  the uh characteristics we want. Um and so I do think we 're gonna continue recording here and record what we can. But um , it did occur to me that we could go to friends in broadcast media and say " hey you have this panel show ,  or this  you know , this discussion show , and um can you record multi - channel ? " And uh they may be willing to record it uh with

Well , they probably already use lapel , but they might be able to have it  it wouldn't be that weird for them to have another mike that was somewhat distant.


Yeah. So  Yeah. So I  I  uh , I  I 'd mentioned to Adam , and  that was another thing I was gonna talk  uh , mention to them before   that uh there 's uh  It  it oc it occurred to me that we might be able to get some additional data by talking to uh acquaintances in local broadcast media. Because , you know , we had talked before about the problem about using found data ,  that  that uh it 's just set up however they have it set up and we don't have any say about it and it 's typically one microphone , in a , uh , uh  or  and  and so it doesn't really give us the  the  the uh characteristics we want. Um and so I do think we 're gonna continue recording here and record what we can. But um , it did occur to me that we could go to friends in broadcast media and say " hey you have this panel show ,  or this  you know , this discussion show , and um can you record multi - channel ? " And uh they may be willing to record it uh with

Well , they probably already use lapel , but they might be able to have it  it wouldn't be that weird for them to have another mike that was somewhat distant.


Well , they probably already use lapel , but they might be able to have it  it wouldn't be that weird for them to have another mike that was somewhat distant.

It wouldn't be exactly this setup , but it would be that sort of thing , and what we were gonna get from UW , you know , assuming they  they  they start recording , isn't  als also is not going to be this exact setup.


Well , they probably already use lapel , but they might be able to have it  it wouldn't be that weird for them to have another mike that was somewhat distant.

It wouldn't be exactly this setup , but it would be that sort of thing , and what we were gonna get from UW , you know , assuming they  they  they start recording , isn't  als also is not going to be this exact setup.

Right. No , I think that 'd be great , if we can get more data.


It wouldn't be exactly this setup , but it would be that sort of thing , and what we were gonna get from UW , you know , assuming they  they  they start recording , isn't  als also is not going to be this exact setup.

Right. No , I think that 'd be great , if we can get more data.

So ,  I  I  I  I was thinking of looking into that. the other thing that occurred to me after we had that discussion , in fact , is that it 's even possible , since of course , many radio shows are not live ,  uh that we could invite them to have like some of their   record some of their shows here.


Right. No , I think that 'd be great , if we can get more data.

So ,  I  I  I  I was thinking of looking into that. the other thing that occurred to me after we had that discussion , in fact , is that it 's even possible , since of course , many radio shows are not live ,  uh that we could invite them to have like some of their   record some of their shows here.

Well  Or  The thing is , they 're not as averse to wearing one of these head - mount I mean , they 're on the radio ,


So ,  I  I  I  I was thinking of looking into that. the other thing that occurred to me after we had that discussion , in fact , is that it 's even possible , since of course , many radio shows are not live ,  uh that we could invite them to have like some of their   record some of their shows here.

Well  Or  The thing is , they 're not as averse to wearing one of these head - mount I mean , they 're on the radio ,


Well  Or  The thing is , they 're not as averse to wearing one of these head - mount I mean , they 're on the radio ,

right ? So.  Um , I think that 'd be fantastic


right ? So.  Um , I think that 'd be fantastic

cuz those kinds of panels and  Those have interesting


cuz those kinds of panels and  Those have interesting

Th - that 's an  a side of style  a style that we 're not collecting here , so it 'd be great.


cuz those kinds of panels and  Those have interesting

Th - that 's an  a side of style  a style that we 're not collecting here , so it 'd be great.

And  and the  I mean , the other side to it was the  what  which is where we were coming from  I 'll  I 'll talk to you more about it later  is that  is that there 's  there 's uh the radio stations and television stations already have stuff worked out presumably , uh related to , you know , legal issues and  and permissions and all that. I mean , they already do what they do  do whatever they do. So it 's  uh , it 's  So it 's  so it 's another source. So I think it 's something we should look into , you know , we 'll collect what we collect here hopefully they will collect more at UW also and um  and maybe we have this other source. But yeah I think that it 's not unreasonable to aim at getting , you know , significantly in excess of a hundred hours. I mean , that was sort of our goal. The thing was , I was hoping that we could  @ @ in the  under this controlled situation we could at least collect , you know , thirty to fifty hours. And at the rate we 're going we 'll get pretty close to that I think this semester. And if we continue to collect some next semester , I think we should , uh


Th - that 's an  a side of style  a style that we 're not collecting here , so it 'd be great.

And  and the  I mean , the other side to it was the  what  which is where we were coming from  I 'll  I 'll talk to you more about it later  is that  is that there 's  there 's uh the radio stations and television stations already have stuff worked out presumably , uh related to , you know , legal issues and  and permissions and all that. I mean , they already do what they do  do whatever they do. So it 's  uh , it 's  So it 's  so it 's another source. So I think it 's something we should look into , you know , we 'll collect what we collect here hopefully they will collect more at UW also and um  and maybe we have this other source. But yeah I think that it 's not unreasonable to aim at getting , you know , significantly in excess of a hundred hours. I mean , that was sort of our goal. The thing was , I was hoping that we could  @ @ in the  under this controlled situation we could at least collect , you know , thirty to fifty hours. And at the rate we 're going we 'll get pretty close to that I think this semester. And if we continue to collect some next semester , I think we should , uh

Right. Yeah I was mostly trying to think , " OK , if you start a project , within say a month , you know , how much data do you have to work with. And you  you wanna s you wanna sort of fr freeze your  your data for awhile so um right now  and we don't have the transcripts back yet from IBM right ? Do  Oh , do we now ?


Th - that 's an  a side of style  a style that we 're not collecting here , so it 'd be great.

And  and the  I mean , the other side to it was the  what  which is where we were coming from  I 'll  I 'll talk to you more about it later  is that  is that there 's  there 's uh the radio stations and television stations already have stuff worked out presumably , uh related to , you know , legal issues and  and permissions and all that. I mean , they already do what they do  do whatever they do. So it 's  uh , it 's  So it 's  so it 's another source. So I think it 's something we should look into , you know , we 'll collect what we collect here hopefully they will collect more at UW also and um  and maybe we have this other source. But yeah I think that it 's not unreasonable to aim at getting , you know , significantly in excess of a hundred hours. I mean , that was sort of our goal. The thing was , I was hoping that we could  @ @ in the  under this controlled situation we could at least collect , you know , thirty to fifty hours. And at the rate we 're going we 'll get pretty close to that I think this semester. And if we continue to collect some next semester , I think we should , uh

Right. Yeah I was mostly trying to think , " OK , if you start a project , within say a month , you know , how much data do you have to work with. And you  you wanna s you wanna sort of fr freeze your  your data for awhile so um right now  and we don't have the transcripts back yet from IBM right ? Do  Oh , do we now ?

Well , we don't even have it for this f you know , forty - five minutes , that was


And  and the  I mean , the other side to it was the  what  which is where we were coming from  I 'll  I 'll talk to you more about it later  is that  is that there 's  there 's uh the radio stations and television stations already have stuff worked out presumably , uh related to , you know , legal issues and  and permissions and all that. I mean , they already do what they do  do whatever they do. So it 's  uh , it 's  So it 's  so it 's another source. So I think it 's something we should look into , you know , we 'll collect what we collect here hopefully they will collect more at UW also and um  and maybe we have this other source. But yeah I think that it 's not unreasonable to aim at getting , you know , significantly in excess of a hundred hours. I mean , that was sort of our goal. The thing was , I was hoping that we could  @ @ in the  under this controlled situation we could at least collect , you know , thirty to fifty hours. And at the rate we 're going we 'll get pretty close to that I think this semester. And if we continue to collect some next semester , I think we should , uh

Right. Yeah I was mostly trying to think , " OK , if you start a project , within say a month , you know , how much data do you have to work with. And you  you wanna s you wanna sort of fr freeze your  your data for awhile so um right now  and we don't have the transcripts back yet from IBM right ? Do  Oh , do we now ?

Well , we don't even have it for this f you know , forty - five minutes , that was

So um , not complaining , I was just trying to think , you know , what kinds of projects can you do now versus uh six months from now


Right. Yeah I was mostly trying to think , " OK , if you start a project , within say a month , you know , how much data do you have to work with. And you  you wanna s you wanna sort of fr freeze your  your data for awhile so um right now  and we don't have the transcripts back yet from IBM right ? Do  Oh , do we now ?

Well , we don't even have it for this f you know , forty - five minutes , that was

So um , not complaining , I was just trying to think , you know , what kinds of projects can you do now versus uh six months from now


Well , we don't even have it for this f you know , forty - five minutes , that was

So um , not complaining , I was just trying to think , you know , what kinds of projects can you do now versus uh six months from now


So um , not complaining , I was just trying to think , you know , what kinds of projects can you do now versus uh six months from now

Yeah. So I was thinking right now it 's sort of this exploratory stuff where you  you look at the data , you use some primitive measures and get a feeling for what the scatter plots look like ,


Yeah. So I was thinking right now it 's sort of this exploratory stuff where you  you look at the data , you use some primitive measures and get a feeling for what the scatter plots look like ,


Yeah. So I was thinking right now it 's sort of this exploratory stuff where you  you look at the data , you use some primitive measures and get a feeling for what the scatter plots look like ,

and  and  and uh  and meanwhile we collect , and it 's more like yeah , three months from now , or six months from now you can  you can do a lot of other things.


and  and  and uh  and meanwhile we collect , and it 's more like yeah , three months from now , or six months from now you can  you can do a lot of other things.

Cuz I 'm not actually sure , just logistically that I can spend  you know , I don't wanna charge the time that I have on the project too early , before there 's enough data to make good use of the time. And that 's  and especially with the student


Cuz I 'm not actually sure , just logistically that I can spend  you know , I don't wanna charge the time that I have on the project too early , before there 's enough data to make good use of the time. And that 's  and especially with the student


Uh anyway , I shouldn't say too much , but um if someone came that was great and wanted to do some real work and they have to end by the end of this school year in the spring , how much data will I have to work with , with that person. And so it 's


Uh anyway , I shouldn't say too much , but um if someone came that was great and wanted to do some real work and they have to end by the end of this school year in the spring , how much data will I have to work with , with that person. And so it 's

i Yeah , so I would think , exploratory things now. Uh , three months from now  Um , I mean the transcriptions I think are a bit of an unknown cuz we haven't gotten those back yet as far as the timing , but I think as far as the collection , it doesn't seem to me l like , uh , unreasonable to say that uh in January , you know , ro roughly uh  which is roughly three months from now , we should have at least something like , you know , twenty - five , thirty hours.


Uh anyway , I shouldn't say too much , but um if someone came that was great and wanted to do some real work and they have to end by the end of this school year in the spring , how much data will I have to work with , with that person. And so it 's

i Yeah , so I would think , exploratory things now. Uh , three months from now  Um , I mean the transcriptions I think are a bit of an unknown cuz we haven't gotten those back yet as far as the timing , but I think as far as the collection , it doesn't seem to me l like , uh , unreasonable to say that uh in January , you know , ro roughly uh  which is roughly three months from now , we should have at least something like , you know , twenty - five , thirty hours.

And we just don't know about the transcription part of that ,


i Yeah , so I would think , exploratory things now. Uh , three months from now  Um , I mean the transcriptions I think are a bit of an unknown cuz we haven't gotten those back yet as far as the timing , but I think as far as the collection , it doesn't seem to me l like , uh , unreasonable to say that uh in January , you know , ro roughly uh  which is roughly three months from now , we should have at least something like , you know , twenty - five , thirty hours.

And we just don't know about the transcription part of that ,

Yeah , we need to  I think that there 's a possibility that the transcript will need to be adjusted afterwards ,


And we just don't know about the transcription part of that ,

Yeah , we need to  I think that there 's a possibility that the transcript will need to be adjusted afterwards ,


Yeah , we need to  I think that there 's a possibility that the transcript will need to be adjusted afterwards ,

and uh es especially since these people won't be uh used to dealing with multi - channel uh transcriptions.


and uh es especially since these people won't be uh used to dealing with multi - channel uh transcriptions.


and uh es especially since these people won't be uh used to dealing with multi - channel uh transcriptions.

So I think that we 'll need to adjust some  And also if we wanna add things like um , well , more refined coding of overlaps , then definitely I think we should count on having an extra pass through. I wanted to ask another a a aspect of the data collection. There 'd be no reason why a person couldn't get together several uh , you know , friends , and come and argue about a topic if they wanted to , right ?


So I think that we 'll need to adjust some  And also if we wanna add things like um , well , more refined coding of overlaps , then definitely I think we should count on having an extra pass through. I wanted to ask another a a aspect of the data collection. There 'd be no reason why a person couldn't get together several uh , you know , friends , and come and argue about a topic if they wanted to , right ?

If they really have something they wanna talk about as opposed to something @ @  I mean , what we 're trying to stay away from was artificial constructions , but I think if it 's a real  Why not ? Yeah.


If they really have something they wanna talk about as opposed to something @ @  I mean , what we 're trying to stay away from was artificial constructions , but I think if it 's a real  Why not ? Yeah.


or just if you 're  if you ha If there are meetings here that happen that we can record even if we don't  um have them do the digits ,  or maybe have them do a shorter  digit thing  like if it was , you know , uh , one string of digits , or something , they 'd probably be willing to do.


or just if you 're  if you ha If there are meetings here that happen that we can record even if we don't  um have them do the digits ,  or maybe have them do a shorter  digit thing  like if it was , you know , uh , one string of digits , or something , they 'd probably be willing to do.

We don't have to do the digits at all if we don't want to.


or just if you 're  if you ha If there are meetings here that happen that we can record even if we don't  um have them do the digits ,  or maybe have them do a shorter  digit thing  like if it was , you know , uh , one string of digits , or something , they 'd probably be willing to do.

We don't have to do the digits at all if we don't want to.

Then , having the data is very valuable , cuz I think it 's um politically better for us to say we have this many hours of audio data , especially with the ITR , if we put in a proposal on it. It 'll just look like ICSI 's collected a lot more audio data. Um , whether it 's transcribed or not um , is another issue , but there 's  there are research questions you can answer without the transcriptions , or at least that you can start to answer.


or just if you 're  if you ha If there are meetings here that happen that we can record even if we don't  um have them do the digits ,  or maybe have them do a shorter  digit thing  like if it was , you know , uh , one string of digits , or something , they 'd probably be willing to do.

We don't have to do the digits at all if we don't want to.

Then , having the data is very valuable , cuz I think it 's um politically better for us to say we have this many hours of audio data , especially with the ITR , if we put in a proposal on it. It 'll just look like ICSI 's collected a lot more audio data. Um , whether it 's transcribed or not um , is another issue , but there 's  there are research questions you can answer without the transcriptions , or at least that you can start to answer.

It seems like you could hold some meetings.


We don't have to do the digits at all if we don't want to.

Then , having the data is very valuable , cuz I think it 's um politically better for us to say we have this many hours of audio data , especially with the ITR , if we put in a proposal on it. It 'll just look like ICSI 's collected a lot more audio data. Um , whether it 's transcribed or not um , is another issue , but there 's  there are research questions you can answer without the transcriptions , or at least that you can start to answer.

It seems like you could hold some meetings.


Then , having the data is very valuable , cuz I think it 's um politically better for us to say we have this many hours of audio data , especially with the ITR , if we put in a proposal on it. It 'll just look like ICSI 's collected a lot more audio data. Um , whether it 's transcribed or not um , is another issue , but there 's  there are research questions you can answer without the transcriptions , or at least that you can start to answer.

It seems like you could hold some meetings.


It seems like you could hold some meetings.


You  you could  you could maybe hold some additional meetings , if you wanted.


You  you could  you could maybe hold some additional meetings , if you wanted.

Would it help at all  I mean , we 're already talking about sort of two levels of detail in meetings. One is uh um without doing the digits  Or , I guess the full - blown one is where you do the digits , and everything , and then talk about doing it without digits , what if we had another level , just to collect data , which is without the headsets and we just did the table - mounted stuff.


Would it help at all  I mean , we 're already talking about sort of two levels of detail in meetings. One is uh um without doing the digits  Or , I guess the full - blown one is where you do the digits , and everything , and then talk about doing it without digits , what if we had another level , just to collect data , which is without the headsets and we just did the table - mounted stuff.


It seems like it 's a big part of this corpus is to have the close - talking mikes.


It seems like it 's a big part of this corpus is to have the close - talking mikes.

Um or at least , like , me personally ? I would   I  couldn't use that data.


Um or at least , like , me personally ? I would   I  couldn't use that data.


we had  This came up when she she was here. That 's important.


we had  This came up when she she was here. That 's important.

Yeah , I  I  b By the  by the way , I don't think the transcriptions are actually , in the long run , such a big bottleneck.


we had  This came up when she she was here. That 's important.

Yeah , I  I  b By the  by the way , I don't think the transcriptions are actually , in the long run , such a big bottleneck.

and if it were true than I would just do that , but it 's not that bad  like the room is not the bottleneck , and we have enough time in the room , it 's getting the people to come in and put on the  and get the setup going.


Yeah , I  I  b By the  by the way , I don't think the transcriptions are actually , in the long run , such a big bottleneck.

and if it were true than I would just do that , but it 's not that bad  like the room is not the bottleneck , and we have enough time in the room , it 's getting the people to come in and put on the  and get the setup going.

I think the issue is just that we 're  we 're blazing that path. Right ? And  and um  d Do you have any idea when  when uh the  you 'll be able to send uh the ten hours to them ?


Yeah , I  I  b By the  by the way , I don't think the transcriptions are actually , in the long run , such a big bottleneck.

and if it were true than I would just do that , but it 's not that bad  like the room is not the bottleneck , and we have enough time in the room , it 's getting the people to come in and put on the  and get the setup going.

I think the issue is just that we 're  we 're blazing that path. Right ? And  and um  d Do you have any idea when  when uh the  you 'll be able to send uh the ten hours to them ?

Well , I 've been burning two C Ds a day , which is about all I can do with the time I have.


and if it were true than I would just do that , but it 's not that bad  like the room is not the bottleneck , and we have enough time in the room , it 's getting the people to come in and put on the  and get the setup going.

I think the issue is just that we 're  we 're blazing that path. Right ? And  and um  d Do you have any idea when  when uh the  you 'll be able to send uh the ten hours to them ?

Well , I 've been burning two C Ds a day , which is about all I can do with the time I have.


I think the issue is just that we 're  we 're blazing that path. Right ? And  and um  d Do you have any idea when  when uh the  you 'll be able to send uh the ten hours to them ?

Well , I 've been burning two C Ds a day , which is about all I can do with the time I have.


Well , I 've been burning two C Ds a day , which is about all I can do with the time I have.

Yeah , OK. So early next week we send it to them , and then  then we check with them to see if they 've got it and we  we start , you know asking about the timing for it.


Yeah , OK. So early next week we send it to them , and then  then we check with them to see if they 've got it and we  we start , you know asking about the timing for it.


Yeah , OK. So early next week we send it to them , and then  then we check with them to see if they 've got it and we  we start , you know asking about the timing for it.

So I think once they get it sorted out about how they 're gonna do it , which I think they 're pretty well along on , cuz they were able to read the files and so on.


So I think once they get it sorted out about how they 're gonna do it , which I think they 're pretty well along on , cuz they were able to read the files and so on.


Yeah , but  You know , so they  they  they have  you know , they 're volunteering their time and they have a lot of other things to do ,


Yeah , but  You know , so they  they  they have  you know , they 're volunteering their time and they have a lot of other things to do ,

right ? But they  But at any rate , they 'll  I  I think once they get that sorted out , they 're  they 're making cassettes there , then they 're handing it to someone who they  who 's  who is doing it , and uh I think it 's not going to be  I don't think it 's going to be that much more of a deal for them to do thirty hours then to do one hour , I think. It 's not going to be thirty


right ? But they  But at any rate , they 'll  I  I think once they get that sorted out , they 're  they 're making cassettes there , then they 're handing it to someone who they  who 's  who is doing it , and uh I think it 's not going to be  I don't think it 's going to be that much more of a deal for them to do thirty hours then to do one hour , I think. It 's not going to be thirty


I mean , I don't know , if there 's any way without too much more overhead , even if we don't ship it right away to IBM even if we just collect it here for awhile ,  to record you know , two or three more meeting a week , just to have the data , even if they 're um not doing the digits , but they do wear the headphones ?


I mean , I don't know , if there 's any way without too much more overhead , even if we don't ship it right away to IBM even if we just collect it here for awhile ,  to record you know , two or three more meeting a week , just to have the data , even if they 're um not doing the digits , but they do wear the headphones ?

But the lunch meetings are pretty much one person getting up and


I mean , I don't know , if there 's any way without too much more overhead , even if we don't ship it right away to IBM even if we just collect it here for awhile ,  to record you know , two or three more meeting a week , just to have the data , even if they 're um not doing the digits , but they do wear the headphones ?

But the lunch meetings are pretty much one person getting up and

No , I meant , um , sorry , the meetings where people eat their lunch downstairs , maybe they don't wanna be recorded , but


But the lunch meetings are pretty much one person getting up and

No , I meant , um , sorry , the meetings where people eat their lunch downstairs , maybe they don't wanna be recorded , but


No , I meant , um , sorry , the meetings where people eat their lunch downstairs , maybe they don't wanna be recorded , but


I actually  I actually think that 's  useful  data , um  the chatting ,


I actually  I actually think that 's  useful  data , um  the chatting ,

Yeah , the problem with that is I would  I think I would feel a little constrained to  You know ? Uh , some of the meetings


I actually  I actually think that 's  useful  data , um  the chatting ,

Yeah , the problem with that is I would  I think I would feel a little constrained to  You know ? Uh , some of the meetings

but  OK. You don't wanna do it , cuz  OK.


I actually  I actually think that 's  useful  data , um  the chatting ,

Yeah , the problem with that is I would  I think I would feel a little constrained to  You know ? Uh , some of the meetings

but  OK. You don't wanna do it , cuz  OK.

You know , our " soccer ball " meeting ?


Yeah , the problem with that is I would  I think I would feel a little constrained to  You know ? Uh , some of the meetings

but  OK. You don't wanna do it , cuz  OK.

You know , our " soccer ball " meeting ?


but  OK. You don't wanna do it , cuz  OK.

You know , our " soccer ball " meeting ?

I guess none of you were there for our soccer ball meeting.


You know , our " soccer ball " meeting ?

I guess none of you were there for our soccer ball meeting.

Alright ,  so I 'll just throw it out there , if anyone knows of one more m or two more wee meetings per week that happen at ICSI , um that we could record , I think it would be worth it.


I guess none of you were there for our soccer ball meeting.

Alright ,  so I 'll just throw it out there , if anyone knows of one more m or two more wee meetings per week that happen at ICSI , um that we could record , I think it would be worth it.


I guess none of you were there for our soccer ball meeting.

Alright ,  so I 'll just throw it out there , if anyone knows of one more m or two more wee meetings per week that happen at ICSI , um that we could record , I think it would be worth it.

Yeah. Well , we should also check with Mari again , because they  because they were really intending , you know , maybe just didn't happen , but they were really intending to be duplicating this in some level. So then that would double  what we had. Uh. And there 's a lot of different meetings at UW uh  I mean really m a lot more  than we have here right cuz we 're not right on campus ,


Alright ,  so I 'll just throw it out there , if anyone knows of one more m or two more wee meetings per week that happen at ICSI , um that we could record , I think it would be worth it.

Yeah. Well , we should also check with Mari again , because they  because they were really intending , you know , maybe just didn't happen , but they were really intending to be duplicating this in some level. So then that would double  what we had. Uh. And there 's a lot of different meetings at UW uh  I mean really m a lot more  than we have here right cuz we 're not right on campus ,


Yeah. Well , we should also check with Mari again , because they  because they were really intending , you know , maybe just didn't happen , but they were really intending to be duplicating this in some level. So then that would double  what we had. Uh. And there 's a lot of different meetings at UW uh  I mean really m a lot more  than we have here right cuz we 're not right on campus ,


Yeah. Well , we should also check with Mari again , because they  because they were really intending , you know , maybe just didn't happen , but they were really intending to be duplicating this in some level. So then that would double  what we had. Uh. And there 's a lot of different meetings at UW uh  I mean really m a lot more  than we have here right cuz we 're not right on campus ,

Is the uh , notion of recording any of Chuck 's meetings dead in the water , or is that still a possibility ?


Is the uh , notion of recording any of Chuck 's meetings dead in the water , or is that still a possibility ?

Uh ,  they seem to have some problems with it. We can  we can talk about that later. Um , but , again , Jerry is  Jerry 's open  So I mean , we have two speech meetings , one uh network meeting , uh Jerry was open to it but I  I s One of the things that I think is a little  a little bit of a limitation , there is a think when the people are not involved uh in our work , we probably can't do it every week. You know ? I  I  I  I think that  that people are gonna feel uh  are gonna feel a little bit constrained. Now , it might get a little better if we don't have them do the digits all the time. And the  then  so then they can just really sort of try to  put the mikes on and then just charge in and


Is the uh , notion of recording any of Chuck 's meetings dead in the water , or is that still a possibility ?

Uh ,  they seem to have some problems with it. We can  we can talk about that later. Um , but , again , Jerry is  Jerry 's open  So I mean , we have two speech meetings , one uh network meeting , uh Jerry was open to it but I  I s One of the things that I think is a little  a little bit of a limitation , there is a think when the people are not involved uh in our work , we probably can't do it every week. You know ? I  I  I  I think that  that people are gonna feel uh  are gonna feel a little bit constrained. Now , it might get a little better if we don't have them do the digits all the time. And the  then  so then they can just really sort of try to  put the mikes on and then just charge in and

What if we give people  you know , we cater a lunch in exchange for them having their meeting here or something ?


Uh ,  they seem to have some problems with it. We can  we can talk about that later. Um , but , again , Jerry is  Jerry 's open  So I mean , we have two speech meetings , one uh network meeting , uh Jerry was open to it but I  I s One of the things that I think is a little  a little bit of a limitation , there is a think when the people are not involved uh in our work , we probably can't do it every week. You know ? I  I  I  I think that  that people are gonna feel uh  are gonna feel a little bit constrained. Now , it might get a little better if we don't have them do the digits all the time. And the  then  so then they can just really sort of try to  put the mikes on and then just charge in and

What if we give people  you know , we cater a lunch in exchange for them having their meeting here or something ?

Well , you know , I  I do think eating while you 're doing a meeting is going to be increasing the noise.


What if we give people  you know , we cater a lunch in exchange for them having their meeting here or something ?

Well , you know , I  I do think eating while you 're doing a meeting is going to be increasing the noise.


What if we give people  you know , we cater a lunch in exchange for them having their meeting here or something ?

Well , you know , I  I do think eating while you 're doing a meeting is going to be increasing the noise.

But I had another question , which is um , you know , in principle , w um , I know that you don't want artificial topics ,


Well , you know , I  I do think eating while you 're doing a meeting is going to be increasing the noise.

But I had another question , which is um , you know , in principle , w um , I know that you don't want artificial topics ,


But I had another question , which is um , you know , in principle , w um , I know that you don't want artificial topics ,

but um it does seem to me that we might be able to get subjects from campus to come down and do something that wouldn't be too artificial. I mean , we could  political discussions , or  or something or other ,


but um it does seem to me that we might be able to get subjects from campus to come down and do something that wouldn't be too artificial. I mean , we could  political discussions , or  or something or other ,

and i you know , people who are  Because , you know , there 's also this constraint. We d it 's like , you know , the  the  uh goldibears  goldi goldilocks , it 's like you don't want meetings that are too large , but you don't want meetings that are too small. And um  a and it just seems like maybe we could exploit the subj human subject p p pool , in the positive sense of the word.


but um it does seem to me that we might be able to get subjects from campus to come down and do something that wouldn't be too artificial. I mean , we could  political discussions , or  or something or other ,

and i you know , people who are  Because , you know , there 's also this constraint. We d it 's like , you know , the  the  uh goldibears  goldi goldilocks , it 's like you don't want meetings that are too large , but you don't want meetings that are too small. And um  a and it just seems like maybe we could exploit the subj human subject p p pool , in the positive sense of the word.

Well , even  I mean , coming down from campus is sort of a big thing , but what about


and i you know , people who are  Because , you know , there 's also this constraint. We d it 's like , you know , the  the  uh goldibears  goldi goldilocks , it 's like you don't want meetings that are too large , but you don't want meetings that are too small. And um  a and it just seems like maybe we could exploit the subj human subject p p pool , in the positive sense of the word.

Well , even  I mean , coming down from campus is sort of a big thing , but what about


and i you know , people who are  Because , you know , there 's also this constraint. We d it 's like , you know , the  the  uh goldibears  goldi goldilocks , it 's like you don't want meetings that are too large , but you don't want meetings that are too small. And um  a and it just seems like maybe we could exploit the subj human subject p p pool , in the positive sense of the word.

Well , even  I mean , coming down from campus is sort of a big thing , but what about

or what about people in the  in the building ?


Well , even  I mean , coming down from campus is sort of a big thing , but what about

or what about people in the  in the building ?

Yeah , I was thinking , there 's all these other peo


or what about people in the  in the building ?

Yeah , I was thinking , there 's all these other peo

I mean , there 's the State of California downstairs , and


Yeah , I was thinking , there 's all these other peo

I mean , there 's the State of California downstairs , and

I just really doubt that uh any of the State of California meetings would be recordable and then releasable to the general public.


I mean , there 's the State of California downstairs , and

I just really doubt that uh any of the State of California meetings would be recordable and then releasable to the general public.


I just really doubt that uh any of the State of California meetings would be recordable and then releasable to the general public.


So I  I mean I talked with some people at the Haas Business School who are i who are interested in speech recognition


So I  I mean I talked with some people at the Haas Business School who are i who are interested in speech recognition

and , they sort of hummed and hawed and said " well maybe we could have meetings down here " , but then I got email from them that said " no , we decided we 're not really interested and we don't wanna come down and hold meetings. " So , I think it 's gonna be a problem to get people regularly.


and , they sort of hummed and hawed and said " well maybe we could have meetings down here " , but then I got email from them that said " no , we decided we 're not really interested and we don't wanna come down and hold meetings. " So , I think it 's gonna be a problem to get people regularly.

But  but we c But I think , you know , we get some scattered things from this and that. And I  I d I do think that maybe we can get somewhere with the  with the radio.


But  but we c But I think , you know , we get some scattered things from this and that. And I  I d I do think that maybe we can get somewhere with the  with the radio.

Uh i I have better contacts in radio than in television , but


But  but we c But I think , you know , we get some scattered things from this and that. And I  I d I do think that maybe we can get somewhere with the  with the radio.

Uh i I have better contacts in radio than in television , but

You could get a lot of lively discussions from those radio ones.


Uh i I have better contacts in radio than in television , but

You could get a lot of lively discussions from those radio ones.

Well , and they 're already  they 're  these things are already recorded ,


You could get a lot of lively discussions from those radio ones.

Well , and they 're already  they 're  these things are already recorded ,


Well , and they 're already  they 're  these things are already recorded ,

we don't have to ask them to  even  and I 'm not sure wh how they record it , but they must record from individual


we don't have to ask them to  even  and I 'm not sure wh how they record it , but they must record from individual

n Well  No , I 'm not talking about ones that are already recorded. I 'm talking about new ones


we don't have to ask them to  even  and I 'm not sure wh how they record it , but they must record from individual

n Well  No , I 'm not talking about ones that are already recorded. I 'm talking about new ones

because  because  because we would be asking them to do something different.


n Well  No , I 'm not talking about ones that are already recorded. I 'm talking about new ones

because  because  because we would be asking them to do something different.

Well , we can find out. I know for instance Mark Liberman was interested uh in  in LDC getting  data , uh , and


because  because  because we would be asking them to do something different.

Well , we can find out. I know for instance Mark Liberman was interested uh in  in LDC getting  data , uh , and


Well , we can find out. I know for instance Mark Liberman was interested uh in  in LDC getting  data , uh , and

But what I 'm saying is uh if I talk to people that I know who do these th who produce these things we could ask them if they could record an extra channel , let 's say , of a distant mike.


But what I 'm saying is uh if I talk to people that I know who do these th who produce these things we could ask them if they could record an extra channel , let 's say , of a distant mike.


But what I 'm saying is uh if I talk to people that I know who do these th who produce these things we could ask them if they could record an extra channel , let 's say , of a distant mike.

And u I think routinely they would not do this. So , since I 'm interested in the distant mike stuff , I wanna make sure that there is at least that somewhere


And u I think routinely they would not do this. So , since I 'm interested in the distant mike stuff , I wanna make sure that there is at least that somewhere

and uh  But if we ask them to do that they might be intrigued enough by the idea that they uh might be e e willing to  the  I might be able to talk them into it.


and uh  But if we ask them to do that they might be intrigued enough by the idea that they uh might be e e willing to  the  I might be able to talk them into it.

Um. We 're getting towards the end of our disk space , so we should think about trying to wrap up here.


Um. We 're getting towards the end of our disk space , so we should think about trying to wrap up here.

OK. Well I don't  why don't we  why d u why don't we uh uh turn them  turn


Um. We 're getting towards the end of our disk space , so we should think about trying to wrap up here.

OK. Well I don't  why don't we  why d u why don't we uh uh turn them  turn

OK , leave  leave them on for a moment until I turn this off , cuz that 's when it crashed last time.


OK. Well I don't  why don't we  why d u why don't we uh uh turn them  turn

OK , leave  leave them on for a moment until I turn this off , cuz that 's when it crashed last time.


OK. Well I don't  why don't we  why d u why don't we uh uh turn them  turn

OK , leave  leave them on for a moment until I turn this off , cuz that 's when it crashed last time.

Turning off the microphone made it crash. Well


OK , leave  leave them on for a moment until I turn this off , cuz that 's when it crashed last time.

Turning off the microphone made it crash. Well


Turning off the microphone made it crash. Well


Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received no apologies for absence. Suzy Davies is going to be arriving a little bit late. Are there any declarations of interest, please? No? Okay. Item 2, then, this morning is an evidence session to scrutinise the Welsh Government's progress in developing the new curriculum for Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education; Steve Davies, director of the education directorate; and Claire Bennett, who is deputy director for curriculum and assessment. Thank you all for attending this morning, and thank you for the paper that you provided in advance to the committee. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so if it's okay, we'll go straight into questions. If I can just start by asking you what the main messages are that you've received during the feedback period on the draft curriculum.

Thank you, Chair. If I may, I think it's important to understand what the level of that feedback has been. So, there was a concerted effort and a plan drawn up to try and ensure that there was as much engagement, knowledge and opportunity as possible. So, working through the regional consortia, approximately 120 separate events were organised, and we believe that in the region of 6,000 headteachers, teachers, governors and teaching assistants have actually had an opportunity to participate in those events. We also held a number of focus group sessions specifically for young people themselves, so that they could give us their feedback. There were 24 focus groups that were arranged for children and young people. We also held some specific events to engage with the business community. We'll all be familiar, won't we, with the narrative of, 'Oh, we're sending people out into the world of business without the skills that we as an employer are looking for'. So we thought it was really important to engage business so that they can have their say and their input into the process. And obviously we work very hard on making it as easy as possible via new technology for people to have their say. So, Members, I'm sure, will have been aware of the specific pages on Hwb that outlined the draft curriculum, and we had 275,000 unique visits to the Hwb curriculum pages. It's really interesting to see the breakdown of the areas of learning and experience—which particular AoLEs were the most popular and were being looked at the most—with our creative and performing arts and the creativity and the expressive arts being the most popular. So that's really interesting that people really wanted to engage in the content of that particular AoLE. What, then, have people said to us? Well, I'm really pleased that there has been broad support for the curriculum changes that we are proposing. There's real support for the need for change, because that's the first question, actually; why are we doing this, and why do we need to change? So, support for the need for change, and lots of support for the principle of a purpose-led curriculum. So, good levels of support for the four purposes, and that driving the content below it. Strong support for greater autonomy and agency for the profession—so, the ability of the profession to take a framework and then truly let them adapt it to meet the needs of the children that they are working with in their communities. Also, a great welcome of the emphasis on formative assessment and the importance of formative assessment. In terms of some of the things that people are asking us to look again at, some of that is around some of the language used. Can we clarify, can we simplify in some areas, are there things that are repeated in a variety of AoLEs? Can we use that as an overarching, rather than repeating ourselves? Can we simplify it and clarify some of the language? Also, in some areas—. It's interesting; in some areas people want it simplified and cut down, but in other areas, people say, 'Well actually, in this bit of it, we need a bit more detail, and a bit more depth and clarity'. So we'll be reflecting on all the feedback that we've had. That process has already started, but considering that this is a massive change, I have been hugely encouraged, actually, by the high levels of engagement and support for the broad principles of what we're doing.

Okay. Thank you, Minister. You said that you're reflecting on the messages that you've received. Are you able to give the committee any early indication of what level of change you anticipate making to the guidance?


Thank you, Chair. If I may, I think it's important to understand what the level of that feedback has been. So, there was a concerted effort and a plan drawn up to try and ensure that there was as much engagement, knowledge and opportunity as possible. So, working through the regional consortia, approximately 120 separate events were organised, and we believe that in the region of 6,000 headteachers, teachers, governors and teaching assistants have actually had an opportunity to participate in those events. We also held a number of focus group sessions specifically for young people themselves, so that they could give us their feedback. There were 24 focus groups that were arranged for children and young people. We also held some specific events to engage with the business community. We'll all be familiar, won't we, with the narrative of, 'Oh, we're sending people out into the world of business without the skills that we as an employer are looking for'. So we thought it was really important to engage business so that they can have their say and their input into the process. And obviously we work very hard on making it as easy as possible via new technology for people to have their say. So, Members, I'm sure, will have been aware of the specific pages on Hwb that outlined the draft curriculum, and we had 275,000 unique visits to the Hwb curriculum pages. It's really interesting to see the breakdown of the areas of learning and experience—which particular AoLEs were the most popular and were being looked at the most—with our creative and performing arts and the creativity and the expressive arts being the most popular. So that's really interesting that people really wanted to engage in the content of that particular AoLE. What, then, have people said to us? Well, I'm really pleased that there has been broad support for the curriculum changes that we are proposing. There's real support for the need for change, because that's the first question, actually; why are we doing this, and why do we need to change? So, support for the need for change, and lots of support for the principle of a purpose-led curriculum. So, good levels of support for the four purposes, and that driving the content below it. Strong support for greater autonomy and agency for the profession—so, the ability of the profession to take a framework and then truly let them adapt it to meet the needs of the children that they are working with in their communities. Also, a great welcome of the emphasis on formative assessment and the importance of formative assessment. In terms of some of the things that people are asking us to look again at, some of that is around some of the language used. Can we clarify, can we simplify in some areas, are there things that are repeated in a variety of AoLEs? Can we use that as an overarching, rather than repeating ourselves? Can we simplify it and clarify some of the language? Also, in some areas—. It's interesting; in some areas people want it simplified and cut down, but in other areas, people say, 'Well actually, in this bit of it, we need a bit more detail, and a bit more depth and clarity'. So we'll be reflecting on all the feedback that we've had. That process has already started, but considering that this is a massive change, I have been hugely encouraged, actually, by the high levels of engagement and support for the broad principles of what we're doing.

Okay. Thank you, Minister. You said that you're reflecting on the messages that you've received. Are you able to give the committee any early indication of what level of change you anticipate making to the guidance?

I think what's really important and what has been the strength of the process to date is that we are not doing this to our profession, we are doing it with our profession. So, in the spirit of co-construction, the reflection on the feedback will continue to be primarily led by the existing infrastructure that we already had that got us to this stage at present. So, Members will be aware that we've slightly changed the model. We had our pioneer school model and we have slightly refined that now. Pioneers were asked if they wanted to continue in that process and to put themselves forward, and we've narrowed that down now to a smaller group of innovative schools. But above and beyond the innovative schools, we looked at individuals who have specific expertise in subject areas, and they're the first part of that process. So, they met last week to begin looking at the feedback, and we'll continue to use the processes that we have to reflect and refine. Are there big changes to the concept? No. Opportunities to do things better, explain things better, simplify where possible, where we've been told that that needs to happen, provide greater depth where we've been told that needs to happen—absolutely. We're definitely very alive and very willing to engage in those, but in terms of the overall concept, then no, no significant changes.