And so would you say that it's valued by learners more or less at key stage 4 or post 16?

Well, I think that, as I said, the vast majority of students I meet report very positively about the opportunities that are afforded for studying at that level. Occasionally, we hear from students who I believe think that in studying the subject they may be compromising their chances because they want to do additional A-levels, and I'm sure we'll come on to, later on, whether universities, and whether the Russell Group universities in particular, value the qualification. But I feel that there are particular strengths. And I think what's really important, and, in talking to universities, since the qualification became graded, rather than just a pass/fail qualification—I think that added rigour since 2015 has been particularly important in ensuring that there's real value in students undertaking that work.

And what about the effect that the leadership in the school has on the way that the bac is received? Have you—?

As always, Julie, leadership is crucial, and students' experiences can be very coloured by the attitude towards the teacher delivering that particular course. And, therefore, we need to continue, alongside the WJEC and Qualifications Wales, to ensure that the Welsh bac is communicated to children in a positive way, the benefits are explained to children and their parents, and, also, we need to ensure that those who are tasked with teaching Welsh bac in their schools or colleges feel confident in their ability to do so and to ensure that students have a really positive experience of that qualification, because if you're being taught by someone who is telling you, 'Oh, I don't know why we're having to do this', then, obviously that's going to colour how you feel about it. And, if I'm honest, I recently attended a youth forum, where young people from the county were discussing all sorts of issues—everything from the environment to their experience in school—and I was struck by the group of year 12 and year 13 students. I specifically asked them about the bac—I always take the opportunity to ask them about their experience of the baccalaureate. One school, the group of students said, 'It's fantastic. We really enjoy it. It's really valuable. I'm learning a lot.' Students from a school seven miles away—just seven miles away—said, 'Oh, I don't know why we're having to do this.' And I suspect that that has got more to do with how that is being delivered in their institutions than it has about the quality of the qualification. So, we need to keep ensuring that those who are tasked with this see it as important, communicate that to students, and have the confidence and the ability to deliver a really positive experience.


Well, I think that, as I said, the vast majority of students I meet report very positively about the opportunities that are afforded for studying at that level. Occasionally, we hear from students who I believe think that in studying the subject they may be compromising their chances because they want to do additional A-levels, and I'm sure we'll come on to, later on, whether universities, and whether the Russell Group universities in particular, value the qualification. But I feel that there are particular strengths. And I think what's really important, and, in talking to universities, since the qualification became graded, rather than just a pass/fail qualification—I think that added rigour since 2015 has been particularly important in ensuring that there's real value in students undertaking that work.

And what about the effect that the leadership in the school has on the way that the bac is received? Have you—?

As always, Julie, leadership is crucial, and students' experiences can be very coloured by the attitude towards the teacher delivering that particular course. And, therefore, we need to continue, alongside the WJEC and Qualifications Wales, to ensure that the Welsh bac is communicated to children in a positive way, the benefits are explained to children and their parents, and, also, we need to ensure that those who are tasked with teaching Welsh bac in their schools or colleges feel confident in their ability to do so and to ensure that students have a really positive experience of that qualification, because if you're being taught by someone who is telling you, 'Oh, I don't know why we're having to do this', then, obviously that's going to colour how you feel about it. And, if I'm honest, I recently attended a youth forum, where young people from the county were discussing all sorts of issues—everything from the environment to their experience in school—and I was struck by the group of year 12 and year 13 students. I specifically asked them about the bac—I always take the opportunity to ask them about their experience of the baccalaureate. One school, the group of students said, 'It's fantastic. We really enjoy it. It's really valuable. I'm learning a lot.' Students from a school seven miles away—just seven miles away—said, 'Oh, I don't know why we're having to do this.' And I suspect that that has got more to do with how that is being delivered in their institutions than it has about the quality of the qualification. So, we need to keep ensuring that those who are tasked with this see it as important, communicate that to students, and have the confidence and the ability to deliver a really positive experience.

I think our experiences in the committee are very similar. Within the same room, actually, we've had two completely different sets of views. So, what do you intend to do to try to ensure that there's consistent support and enthusiasm for the bac from the leaders?


And what about the effect that the leadership in the school has on the way that the bac is received? Have you—?

As always, Julie, leadership is crucial, and students' experiences can be very coloured by the attitude towards the teacher delivering that particular course. And, therefore, we need to continue, alongside the WJEC and Qualifications Wales, to ensure that the Welsh bac is communicated to children in a positive way, the benefits are explained to children and their parents, and, also, we need to ensure that those who are tasked with teaching Welsh bac in their schools or colleges feel confident in their ability to do so and to ensure that students have a really positive experience of that qualification, because if you're being taught by someone who is telling you, 'Oh, I don't know why we're having to do this', then, obviously that's going to colour how you feel about it. And, if I'm honest, I recently attended a youth forum, where young people from the county were discussing all sorts of issues—everything from the environment to their experience in school—and I was struck by the group of year 12 and year 13 students. I specifically asked them about the bac—I always take the opportunity to ask them about their experience of the baccalaureate. One school, the group of students said, 'It's fantastic. We really enjoy it. It's really valuable. I'm learning a lot.' Students from a school seven miles away—just seven miles away—said, 'Oh, I don't know why we're having to do this.' And I suspect that that has got more to do with how that is being delivered in their institutions than it has about the quality of the qualification. So, we need to keep ensuring that those who are tasked with this see it as important, communicate that to students, and have the confidence and the ability to deliver a really positive experience.

I think our experiences in the committee are very similar. Within the same room, actually, we've had two completely different sets of views. So, what do you intend to do to try to ensure that there's consistent support and enthusiasm for the bac from the leaders?

Well, first of all, we have the design group of Qualifications Wales looking to address some of the issues that arose out of the report around ensuring that, especially from a teacher workload perspective, it's not too onerous in terms of assessment. So, there's that to do to make sure that we're not asking children to duplicate and do things over and over and over again, which, of course, for any of us, would be wearing and we would question to the value of. So, there's the design group looking at the qualification itself. We are ensuring, as part of our professional learning for teachers that—. There are existing opportunities via the regional consortia for support for teaching of the qualification. The WJEC has resources and support available, but we will look, as we roll out our national approach to professional learning, at that the professional learning needs of those already in the system are addressed. Of course, our accreditation for our new initial teacher education is predominantly addressed at being able to deliver the new curriculum, but, if you think about the elements of 'Successful Futures' and the skills and the knowledge and the pedagogy associated with that, it's very much in line with the Welsh baccalaureate challenge certificate. So, actually, there are opportunities via initial teacher education as well, and we continue to need to look to work with our partners to be able to reinforce why this is a worthwhile qualification. And I have to say I think the best people to do that—. It's not me. I'd like to see past students of the Welsh baccalaureate being able to talk about their own experiences and why it's made a difference to them. I come across individuals for whom their place at university has been secured by that Welsh baccalaureate, and, all of a sudden, if that's what's got you your place, it becomes a lot more valuable than perhaps it was six months before. We need to make sure that students are aware, and teachers and school leaders are aware, of the importance that this qualification has.


As always, Julie, leadership is crucial, and students' experiences can be very coloured by the attitude towards the teacher delivering that particular course. And, therefore, we need to continue, alongside the WJEC and Qualifications Wales, to ensure that the Welsh bac is communicated to children in a positive way, the benefits are explained to children and their parents, and, also, we need to ensure that those who are tasked with teaching Welsh bac in their schools or colleges feel confident in their ability to do so and to ensure that students have a really positive experience of that qualification, because if you're being taught by someone who is telling you, 'Oh, I don't know why we're having to do this', then, obviously that's going to colour how you feel about it. And, if I'm honest, I recently attended a youth forum, where young people from the county were discussing all sorts of issues—everything from the environment to their experience in school—and I was struck by the group of year 12 and year 13 students. I specifically asked them about the bac—I always take the opportunity to ask them about their experience of the baccalaureate. One school, the group of students said, 'It's fantastic. We really enjoy it. It's really valuable. I'm learning a lot.' Students from a school seven miles away—just seven miles away—said, 'Oh, I don't know why we're having to do this.' And I suspect that that has got more to do with how that is being delivered in their institutions than it has about the quality of the qualification. So, we need to keep ensuring that those who are tasked with this see it as important, communicate that to students, and have the confidence and the ability to deliver a really positive experience.

I think our experiences in the committee are very similar. Within the same room, actually, we've had two completely different sets of views. So, what do you intend to do to try to ensure that there's consistent support and enthusiasm for the bac from the leaders?

Well, first of all, we have the design group of Qualifications Wales looking to address some of the issues that arose out of the report around ensuring that, especially from a teacher workload perspective, it's not too onerous in terms of assessment. So, there's that to do to make sure that we're not asking children to duplicate and do things over and over and over again, which, of course, for any of us, would be wearing and we would question to the value of. So, there's the design group looking at the qualification itself. We are ensuring, as part of our professional learning for teachers that—. There are existing opportunities via the regional consortia for support for teaching of the qualification. The WJEC has resources and support available, but we will look, as we roll out our national approach to professional learning, at that the professional learning needs of those already in the system are addressed. Of course, our accreditation for our new initial teacher education is predominantly addressed at being able to deliver the new curriculum, but, if you think about the elements of 'Successful Futures' and the skills and the knowledge and the pedagogy associated with that, it's very much in line with the Welsh baccalaureate challenge certificate. So, actually, there are opportunities via initial teacher education as well, and we continue to need to look to work with our partners to be able to reinforce why this is a worthwhile qualification. And I have to say I think the best people to do that—. It's not me. I'd like to see past students of the Welsh baccalaureate being able to talk about their own experiences and why it's made a difference to them. I come across individuals for whom their place at university has been secured by that Welsh baccalaureate, and, all of a sudden, if that's what's got you your place, it becomes a lot more valuable than perhaps it was six months before. We need to make sure that students are aware, and teachers and school leaders are aware, of the importance that this qualification has.


I think our experiences in the committee are very similar. Within the same room, actually, we've had two completely different sets of views. So, what do you intend to do to try to ensure that there's consistent support and enthusiasm for the bac from the leaders?

Well, first of all, we have the design group of Qualifications Wales looking to address some of the issues that arose out of the report around ensuring that, especially from a teacher workload perspective, it's not too onerous in terms of assessment. So, there's that to do to make sure that we're not asking children to duplicate and do things over and over and over again, which, of course, for any of us, would be wearing and we would question to the value of. So, there's the design group looking at the qualification itself. We are ensuring, as part of our professional learning for teachers that—. There are existing opportunities via the regional consortia for support for teaching of the qualification. The WJEC has resources and support available, but we will look, as we roll out our national approach to professional learning, at that the professional learning needs of those already in the system are addressed. Of course, our accreditation for our new initial teacher education is predominantly addressed at being able to deliver the new curriculum, but, if you think about the elements of 'Successful Futures' and the skills and the knowledge and the pedagogy associated with that, it's very much in line with the Welsh baccalaureate challenge certificate. So, actually, there are opportunities via initial teacher education as well, and we continue to need to look to work with our partners to be able to reinforce why this is a worthwhile qualification. And I have to say I think the best people to do that—. It's not me. I'd like to see past students of the Welsh baccalaureate being able to talk about their own experiences and why it's made a difference to them. I come across individuals for whom their place at university has been secured by that Welsh baccalaureate, and, all of a sudden, if that's what's got you your place, it becomes a lot more valuable than perhaps it was six months before. We need to make sure that students are aware, and teachers and school leaders are aware, of the importance that this qualification has.

Yes. I've got one on IT, but I'll leave that one. I just want to go back to Julie's question about whether there was a different perspective or a different sense of value for students who are post 16 and those who are pre 16. When one of the college leaders here was asked whether he had people coming to him in his FE college who've been through the pre-16 bac and had heard evidence or had stories of, basically, those children cobbling together their bac in the last four weeks of term before they got there, he said that yes, that is his experience. Does that worry you at all, because, of course, the whole purpose of bac is to teach skills over a period of time, and its purpose cannot be fulfilled by getting it all done in the last term of—which year am I in?—year 11, in order to satisfy the curriculum?


Well, first of all, we have the design group of Qualifications Wales looking to address some of the issues that arose out of the report around ensuring that, especially from a teacher workload perspective, it's not too onerous in terms of assessment. So, there's that to do to make sure that we're not asking children to duplicate and do things over and over and over again, which, of course, for any of us, would be wearing and we would question to the value of. So, there's the design group looking at the qualification itself. We are ensuring, as part of our professional learning for teachers that—. There are existing opportunities via the regional consortia for support for teaching of the qualification. The WJEC has resources and support available, but we will look, as we roll out our national approach to professional learning, at that the professional learning needs of those already in the system are addressed. Of course, our accreditation for our new initial teacher education is predominantly addressed at being able to deliver the new curriculum, but, if you think about the elements of 'Successful Futures' and the skills and the knowledge and the pedagogy associated with that, it's very much in line with the Welsh baccalaureate challenge certificate. So, actually, there are opportunities via initial teacher education as well, and we continue to need to look to work with our partners to be able to reinforce why this is a worthwhile qualification. And I have to say I think the best people to do that—. It's not me. I'd like to see past students of the Welsh baccalaureate being able to talk about their own experiences and why it's made a difference to them. I come across individuals for whom their place at university has been secured by that Welsh baccalaureate, and, all of a sudden, if that's what's got you your place, it becomes a lot more valuable than perhaps it was six months before. We need to make sure that students are aware, and teachers and school leaders are aware, of the importance that this qualification has.

Yes. I've got one on IT, but I'll leave that one. I just want to go back to Julie's question about whether there was a different perspective or a different sense of value for students who are post 16 and those who are pre 16. When one of the college leaders here was asked whether he had people coming to him in his FE college who've been through the pre-16 bac and had heard evidence or had stories of, basically, those children cobbling together their bac in the last four weeks of term before they got there, he said that yes, that is his experience. Does that worry you at all, because, of course, the whole purpose of bac is to teach skills over a period of time, and its purpose cannot be fulfilled by getting it all done in the last term of—which year am I in?—year 11, in order to satisfy the curriculum?

Yes. Obviously, that's not the experience that we would want young people to have, and, as someone who has had a daughter just finish year 11, that's certainly not the experience that my daughter had in her particular school, and I have another daughter who has just gone into year 10, where the Welsh bac has started in year 10 and it is a a two-year course in which elements are undertaken. Obviously, we will need to address, as part of the design group and the work that Qualifications Wales is doing, how that is playing out in individual schools. But that would not be a positive experience; we want this to be taken in exactly the same way as we would expect a GCSE to be taught over a period of two years. But, Andrew, I don't know if there's anything you'd like to add from the college perspective.


Yes. I've got one on IT, but I'll leave that one. I just want to go back to Julie's question about whether there was a different perspective or a different sense of value for students who are post 16 and those who are pre 16. When one of the college leaders here was asked whether he had people coming to him in his FE college who've been through the pre-16 bac and had heard evidence or had stories of, basically, those children cobbling together their bac in the last four weeks of term before they got there, he said that yes, that is his experience. Does that worry you at all, because, of course, the whole purpose of bac is to teach skills over a period of time, and its purpose cannot be fulfilled by getting it all done in the last term of—which year am I in?—year 11, in order to satisfy the curriculum?

Yes. Obviously, that's not the experience that we would want young people to have, and, as someone who has had a daughter just finish year 11, that's certainly not the experience that my daughter had in her particular school, and I have another daughter who has just gone into year 10, where the Welsh bac has started in year 10 and it is a a two-year course in which elements are undertaken. Obviously, we will need to address, as part of the design group and the work that Qualifications Wales is doing, how that is playing out in individual schools. But that would not be a positive experience; we want this to be taken in exactly the same way as we would expect a GCSE to be taught over a period of two years. But, Andrew, I don't know if there's anything you'd like to add from the college perspective.

I think it is variable. I think that it will depend on the feeder schools to the colleges and it'll depend upon the delivery models that are in existence in those schools. It's been around as a qualification now for about a decade, I think. There have been differences in the way that the subject has been—sorry, not the subject, the qualification has been delivered. And I think it'll be helped by a recent review by Qualifications Wales, because they're doing a survey at the moment as to different delivery models in different locations, and that, perhaps, will inform more even practice as we move forwards.


Yes. I've got one on IT, but I'll leave that one. I just want to go back to Julie's question about whether there was a different perspective or a different sense of value for students who are post 16 and those who are pre 16. When one of the college leaders here was asked whether he had people coming to him in his FE college who've been through the pre-16 bac and had heard evidence or had stories of, basically, those children cobbling together their bac in the last four weeks of term before they got there, he said that yes, that is his experience. Does that worry you at all, because, of course, the whole purpose of bac is to teach skills over a period of time, and its purpose cannot be fulfilled by getting it all done in the last term of—which year am I in?—year 11, in order to satisfy the curriculum?

Yes. Obviously, that's not the experience that we would want young people to have, and, as someone who has had a daughter just finish year 11, that's certainly not the experience that my daughter had in her particular school, and I have another daughter who has just gone into year 10, where the Welsh bac has started in year 10 and it is a a two-year course in which elements are undertaken. Obviously, we will need to address, as part of the design group and the work that Qualifications Wales is doing, how that is playing out in individual schools. But that would not be a positive experience; we want this to be taken in exactly the same way as we would expect a GCSE to be taught over a period of two years. But, Andrew, I don't know if there's anything you'd like to add from the college perspective.

I think it is variable. I think that it will depend on the feeder schools to the colleges and it'll depend upon the delivery models that are in existence in those schools. It's been around as a qualification now for about a decade, I think. There have been differences in the way that the subject has been—sorry, not the subject, the qualification has been delivered. And I think it'll be helped by a recent review by Qualifications Wales, because they're doing a survey at the moment as to different delivery models in different locations, and that, perhaps, will inform more even practice as we move forwards.

Yes, and Estyn and consortia are looking at it as well. I don't want to cut across questions, so, thank you.


Yes. Obviously, that's not the experience that we would want young people to have, and, as someone who has had a daughter just finish year 11, that's certainly not the experience that my daughter had in her particular school, and I have another daughter who has just gone into year 10, where the Welsh bac has started in year 10 and it is a a two-year course in which elements are undertaken. Obviously, we will need to address, as part of the design group and the work that Qualifications Wales is doing, how that is playing out in individual schools. But that would not be a positive experience; we want this to be taken in exactly the same way as we would expect a GCSE to be taught over a period of two years. But, Andrew, I don't know if there's anything you'd like to add from the college perspective.

I think it is variable. I think that it will depend on the feeder schools to the colleges and it'll depend upon the delivery models that are in existence in those schools. It's been around as a qualification now for about a decade, I think. There have been differences in the way that the subject has been—sorry, not the subject, the qualification has been delivered. And I think it'll be helped by a recent review by Qualifications Wales, because they're doing a survey at the moment as to different delivery models in different locations, and that, perhaps, will inform more even practice as we move forwards.

Yes, and Estyn and consortia are looking at it as well. I don't want to cut across questions, so, thank you.

No, but it's a known issue, if you like, that various people are attempting to address and bring a more uniform mode of delivery across the nation.


I think it is variable. I think that it will depend on the feeder schools to the colleges and it'll depend upon the delivery models that are in existence in those schools. It's been around as a qualification now for about a decade, I think. There have been differences in the way that the subject has been—sorry, not the subject, the qualification has been delivered. And I think it'll be helped by a recent review by Qualifications Wales, because they're doing a survey at the moment as to different delivery models in different locations, and that, perhaps, will inform more even practice as we move forwards.

Yes, and Estyn and consortia are looking at it as well. I don't want to cut across questions, so, thank you.

No, but it's a known issue, if you like, that various people are attempting to address and bring a more uniform mode of delivery across the nation.


Yes, and Estyn and consortia are looking at it as well. I don't want to cut across questions, so, thank you.

No, but it's a known issue, if you like, that various people are attempting to address and bring a more uniform mode of delivery across the nation.

We've got some more detailed questions now on understanding, from Siân Gwenllian.


No, but it's a known issue, if you like, that various people are attempting to address and bring a more uniform mode of delivery across the nation.

We've got some more detailed questions now on understanding, from Siân Gwenllian.

Just to drill down rather deeper into the issue of the variability in the way in which the Welsh bac is provided, could you explain why you think that this inconsistency is happening, and then what the impact of the inconsistency and variability is on the value that learners attach to the bac and their understanding of it?


We've got some more detailed questions now on understanding, from Siân Gwenllian.

Just to drill down rather deeper into the issue of the variability in the way in which the Welsh bac is provided, could you explain why you think that this inconsistency is happening, and then what the impact of the inconsistency and variability is on the value that learners attach to the bac and their understanding of it?

I think the variability can be perhaps explained by the fact that it's a new type of qualification, the fact that different schools have adopted it at different rates—


Just to drill down rather deeper into the issue of the variability in the way in which the Welsh bac is provided, could you explain why you think that this inconsistency is happening, and then what the impact of the inconsistency and variability is on the value that learners attach to the bac and their understanding of it?

I think the variability can be perhaps explained by the fact that it's a new type of qualification, the fact that different schools have adopted it at different rates—

Well, as I said, over that time, there were some early adopters who have done it in a certain way, there are some people who've come later to it, who may be doing it in a different way. And, as I said, it's quite a different departure from traditional O-levels, from GCSE-type subjects, where there is a programme of work and a syllabus. So, it is a different nature of qualification, and, therefore, as Andrew has just alluded to, schools have approached it in a different way. We are alert to that and Qualifications Wales, crucially, is alert to that, and we are looking to ensure greater consistency in how it is delivered in individual schools. We're also aware, in the school setting, in pre 16, there are some concerns about the onerousness of the workload associated with the evaluation of the students' work. Now, clearly, there is a difference between onerous and rigorous. We wrote the qualification to be a rigorous qualification for the students, but we don't want it to be jeopardised by the evaluation of it being too onerous. So, there's that balance to be struck. Again, that's one of the issues that the design group and Qualifications Wales are looking at. That process is a really important process, so there is the design group, but working alongside the design group, who they are testing the messages and testing their thoughts with, is a stakeholder group, and there is also a practitioners group. So, that work by the design group is being tested with those people who have an interest: business, for instance, the world of work—is this qualification really giving students the skills that are valued by potential employers?—but it's also testing its thinking with the practitioners, those people who will be charged with the delivery of the qualification, and I think that's really important to be able to get an understanding of the challenges of making sure there's a consistency, and what are the barriers to that, and what steps need to be taken to ensure a greater level of consistency in delivery.


I think the variability can be perhaps explained by the fact that it's a new type of qualification, the fact that different schools have adopted it at different rates—

Well, as I said, over that time, there were some early adopters who have done it in a certain way, there are some people who've come later to it, who may be doing it in a different way. And, as I said, it's quite a different departure from traditional O-levels, from GCSE-type subjects, where there is a programme of work and a syllabus. So, it is a different nature of qualification, and, therefore, as Andrew has just alluded to, schools have approached it in a different way. We are alert to that and Qualifications Wales, crucially, is alert to that, and we are looking to ensure greater consistency in how it is delivered in individual schools. We're also aware, in the school setting, in pre 16, there are some concerns about the onerousness of the workload associated with the evaluation of the students' work. Now, clearly, there is a difference between onerous and rigorous. We wrote the qualification to be a rigorous qualification for the students, but we don't want it to be jeopardised by the evaluation of it being too onerous. So, there's that balance to be struck. Again, that's one of the issues that the design group and Qualifications Wales are looking at. That process is a really important process, so there is the design group, but working alongside the design group, who they are testing the messages and testing their thoughts with, is a stakeholder group, and there is also a practitioners group. So, that work by the design group is being tested with those people who have an interest: business, for instance, the world of work—is this qualification really giving students the skills that are valued by potential employers?—but it's also testing its thinking with the practitioners, those people who will be charged with the delivery of the qualification, and I think that's really important to be able to get an understanding of the challenges of making sure there's a consistency, and what are the barriers to that, and what steps need to be taken to ensure a greater level of consistency in delivery.

Is there a correlation between consistency in general? Because we know that there's polarisation in the secondary school sector between the good schools and the not-so-good schools. And is there a correlation between—if the schools are good according to Estyn, or excellent, are they also good, excellent at delivering the bac? Is it a fundamental inconsistency across the sector that's causing this inconsistency?


Well, as I said, over that time, there were some early adopters who have done it in a certain way, there are some people who've come later to it, who may be doing it in a different way. And, as I said, it's quite a different departure from traditional O-levels, from GCSE-type subjects, where there is a programme of work and a syllabus. So, it is a different nature of qualification, and, therefore, as Andrew has just alluded to, schools have approached it in a different way. We are alert to that and Qualifications Wales, crucially, is alert to that, and we are looking to ensure greater consistency in how it is delivered in individual schools. We're also aware, in the school setting, in pre 16, there are some concerns about the onerousness of the workload associated with the evaluation of the students' work. Now, clearly, there is a difference between onerous and rigorous. We wrote the qualification to be a rigorous qualification for the students, but we don't want it to be jeopardised by the evaluation of it being too onerous. So, there's that balance to be struck. Again, that's one of the issues that the design group and Qualifications Wales are looking at. That process is a really important process, so there is the design group, but working alongside the design group, who they are testing the messages and testing their thoughts with, is a stakeholder group, and there is also a practitioners group. So, that work by the design group is being tested with those people who have an interest: business, for instance, the world of work—is this qualification really giving students the skills that are valued by potential employers?—but it's also testing its thinking with the practitioners, those people who will be charged with the delivery of the qualification, and I think that's really important to be able to get an understanding of the challenges of making sure there's a consistency, and what are the barriers to that, and what steps need to be taken to ensure a greater level of consistency in delivery.

Is there a correlation between consistency in general? Because we know that there's polarisation in the secondary school sector between the good schools and the not-so-good schools. And is there a correlation between—if the schools are good according to Estyn, or excellent, are they also good, excellent at delivering the bac? Is it a fundamental inconsistency across the sector that's causing this inconsistency?

I don't know. I don't have that data to hand, but, of course, from next year, the bac will be a dedicated performance measure for schools. So, actually, we will be looking specifically at completion of the bac as part of the wider set of school performance measures. So perhaps we will be in a better position once that's formally established to be able to track progress.


Well, as I said, over that time, there were some early adopters who have done it in a certain way, there are some people who've come later to it, who may be doing it in a different way. And, as I said, it's quite a different departure from traditional O-levels, from GCSE-type subjects, where there is a programme of work and a syllabus. So, it is a different nature of qualification, and, therefore, as Andrew has just alluded to, schools have approached it in a different way. We are alert to that and Qualifications Wales, crucially, is alert to that, and we are looking to ensure greater consistency in how it is delivered in individual schools. We're also aware, in the school setting, in pre 16, there are some concerns about the onerousness of the workload associated with the evaluation of the students' work. Now, clearly, there is a difference between onerous and rigorous. We wrote the qualification to be a rigorous qualification for the students, but we don't want it to be jeopardised by the evaluation of it being too onerous. So, there's that balance to be struck. Again, that's one of the issues that the design group and Qualifications Wales are looking at. That process is a really important process, so there is the design group, but working alongside the design group, who they are testing the messages and testing their thoughts with, is a stakeholder group, and there is also a practitioners group. So, that work by the design group is being tested with those people who have an interest: business, for instance, the world of work—is this qualification really giving students the skills that are valued by potential employers?—but it's also testing its thinking with the practitioners, those people who will be charged with the delivery of the qualification, and I think that's really important to be able to get an understanding of the challenges of making sure there's a consistency, and what are the barriers to that, and what steps need to be taken to ensure a greater level of consistency in delivery.

Is there a correlation between consistency in general? Because we know that there's polarisation in the secondary school sector between the good schools and the not-so-good schools. And is there a correlation between—if the schools are good according to Estyn, or excellent, are they also good, excellent at delivering the bac? Is it a fundamental inconsistency across the sector that's causing this inconsistency?

I don't know. I don't have that data to hand, but, of course, from next year, the bac will be a dedicated performance measure for schools. So, actually, we will be looking specifically at completion of the bac as part of the wider set of school performance measures. So perhaps we will be in a better position once that's formally established to be able to track progress.

Because some of the evidence we've heard is that if the leadership is good around the bac in the school, well, everything else follows from that. So, it makes sense to me that it could be.


Is there a correlation between consistency in general? Because we know that there's polarisation in the secondary school sector between the good schools and the not-so-good schools. And is there a correlation between—if the schools are good according to Estyn, or excellent, are they also good, excellent at delivering the bac? Is it a fundamental inconsistency across the sector that's causing this inconsistency?

I don't know. I don't have that data to hand, but, of course, from next year, the bac will be a dedicated performance measure for schools. So, actually, we will be looking specifically at completion of the bac as part of the wider set of school performance measures. So perhaps we will be in a better position once that's formally established to be able to track progress.

Because some of the evidence we've heard is that if the leadership is good around the bac in the school, well, everything else follows from that. So, it makes sense to me that it could be.

Absolutely. As I said, I don't have the figures to hand, but, as I said, from next year, the bac actually becomes a formal part of the performance measures for schools.


I don't know. I don't have that data to hand, but, of course, from next year, the bac will be a dedicated performance measure for schools. So, actually, we will be looking specifically at completion of the bac as part of the wider set of school performance measures. So perhaps we will be in a better position once that's formally established to be able to track progress.

Because some of the evidence we've heard is that if the leadership is good around the bac in the school, well, everything else follows from that. So, it makes sense to me that it could be.

Absolutely. As I said, I don't have the figures to hand, but, as I said, from next year, the bac actually becomes a formal part of the performance measures for schools.

Fine. I'll turn, therefore, to the understanding of employers of the Welsh bac and the skills challenge certificate. From the evidence that we've had, it appears that there is a problem in this area, that is, employers generally don't value the qualification. Is that your experience, and how can we improve that? How can we elicit more engagement from employers of all sizes with the value of the baccalaureate?


Because some of the evidence we've heard is that if the leadership is good around the bac in the school, well, everything else follows from that. So, it makes sense to me that it could be.

Absolutely. As I said, I don't have the figures to hand, but, as I said, from next year, the bac actually becomes a formal part of the performance measures for schools.

Fine. I'll turn, therefore, to the understanding of employers of the Welsh bac and the skills challenge certificate. From the evidence that we've had, it appears that there is a problem in this area, that is, employers generally don't value the qualification. Is that your experience, and how can we improve that? How can we elicit more engagement from employers of all sizes with the value of the baccalaureate?

Well, the first thing to say is my understanding of the development of the bac is that employers' voices were reflected and they were part of the process that drew up the qualification in the first place. You'll be aware of the review by Qualifications Wales that found that many employers say that the skills that are developed through the baccalaureate are exactly the kinds of skills that they want young people to be acquiring whilst at school, that put them in a good place for looking for employment later. I would agree with you, Siân, and not just in terms of the bac, there are lots of reasons why we need greater working between education and employers. I sit down with employer organisations to try and explore better ways in which we can work together—everything from ensuring that children have work experience opportunities through to, for instance, what more some of our companies could do to take up governors' roles, for instance, in our local schools, so that employer voice and that business voice are heard at a school management level. I think these things are really important. It's something that's sometimes difficult. There are some excellent examples of really good practice where local employers work really closely with schools. I think of Sony in Bridgend doing a really, really, really good job working with their local schools. In other areas, where you haven't got such a big employer, it can be difficult, can't it, for a small business that is trying to do their small business to think about, 'Oh my goodness, I've got to do something to help improve the education system as well.' So, I'm always looking at new ways in which we can get that working together. As I said, the Qualifications Wales design group has a stakeholder group that is helping them with their review into the qualification at the moment, but there are really good examples where employers and other organisations are working together. We also need to continue, I think, to communicate more clearly with employers the nature of the qualification. Again, because it's relatively new, and the brands of the GCSE and A-level are so strong, people know what they are, unless you've either done the Welsh bac yourself or you have a son or a daughter, or a grandson or granddaughter who has gone through the process, you're probably going to be less familiar, and we need to continue to work together with the WJEC and Qualifications Wales as a Government to better communicate the value of the qualification.


Absolutely. As I said, I don't have the figures to hand, but, as I said, from next year, the bac actually becomes a formal part of the performance measures for schools.

Fine. I'll turn, therefore, to the understanding of employers of the Welsh bac and the skills challenge certificate. From the evidence that we've had, it appears that there is a problem in this area, that is, employers generally don't value the qualification. Is that your experience, and how can we improve that? How can we elicit more engagement from employers of all sizes with the value of the baccalaureate?

Well, the first thing to say is my understanding of the development of the bac is that employers' voices were reflected and they were part of the process that drew up the qualification in the first place. You'll be aware of the review by Qualifications Wales that found that many employers say that the skills that are developed through the baccalaureate are exactly the kinds of skills that they want young people to be acquiring whilst at school, that put them in a good place for looking for employment later. I would agree with you, Siân, and not just in terms of the bac, there are lots of reasons why we need greater working between education and employers. I sit down with employer organisations to try and explore better ways in which we can work together—everything from ensuring that children have work experience opportunities through to, for instance, what more some of our companies could do to take up governors' roles, for instance, in our local schools, so that employer voice and that business voice are heard at a school management level. I think these things are really important. It's something that's sometimes difficult. There are some excellent examples of really good practice where local employers work really closely with schools. I think of Sony in Bridgend doing a really, really, really good job working with their local schools. In other areas, where you haven't got such a big employer, it can be difficult, can't it, for a small business that is trying to do their small business to think about, 'Oh my goodness, I've got to do something to help improve the education system as well.' So, I'm always looking at new ways in which we can get that working together. As I said, the Qualifications Wales design group has a stakeholder group that is helping them with their review into the qualification at the moment, but there are really good examples where employers and other organisations are working together. We also need to continue, I think, to communicate more clearly with employers the nature of the qualification. Again, because it's relatively new, and the brands of the GCSE and A-level are so strong, people know what they are, unless you've either done the Welsh bac yourself or you have a son or a daughter, or a grandson or granddaughter who has gone through the process, you're probably going to be less familiar, and we need to continue to work together with the WJEC and Qualifications Wales as a Government to better communicate the value of the qualification.

So, you agree that there is a specific piece of work that needs to be done around employers and that the Government should be leading that.


Fine. I'll turn, therefore, to the understanding of employers of the Welsh bac and the skills challenge certificate. From the evidence that we've had, it appears that there is a problem in this area, that is, employers generally don't value the qualification. Is that your experience, and how can we improve that? How can we elicit more engagement from employers of all sizes with the value of the baccalaureate?

Well, the first thing to say is my understanding of the development of the bac is that employers' voices were reflected and they were part of the process that drew up the qualification in the first place. You'll be aware of the review by Qualifications Wales that found that many employers say that the skills that are developed through the baccalaureate are exactly the kinds of skills that they want young people to be acquiring whilst at school, that put them in a good place for looking for employment later. I would agree with you, Siân, and not just in terms of the bac, there are lots of reasons why we need greater working between education and employers. I sit down with employer organisations to try and explore better ways in which we can work together—everything from ensuring that children have work experience opportunities through to, for instance, what more some of our companies could do to take up governors' roles, for instance, in our local schools, so that employer voice and that business voice are heard at a school management level. I think these things are really important. It's something that's sometimes difficult. There are some excellent examples of really good practice where local employers work really closely with schools. I think of Sony in Bridgend doing a really, really, really good job working with their local schools. In other areas, where you haven't got such a big employer, it can be difficult, can't it, for a small business that is trying to do their small business to think about, 'Oh my goodness, I've got to do something to help improve the education system as well.' So, I'm always looking at new ways in which we can get that working together. As I said, the Qualifications Wales design group has a stakeholder group that is helping them with their review into the qualification at the moment, but there are really good examples where employers and other organisations are working together. We also need to continue, I think, to communicate more clearly with employers the nature of the qualification. Again, because it's relatively new, and the brands of the GCSE and A-level are so strong, people know what they are, unless you've either done the Welsh bac yourself or you have a son or a daughter, or a grandson or granddaughter who has gone through the process, you're probably going to be less familiar, and we need to continue to work together with the WJEC and Qualifications Wales as a Government to better communicate the value of the qualification.

So, you agree that there is a specific piece of work that needs to be done around employers and that the Government should be leading that.

Yes, and we are working closely with, as I said, Qualifications Wales to develop a joint communication plan, and we continue, as I said, as part of Qualifications Wales's review into the nature of the qualification—employers' voices are being heard as part of that particular piece of work. But more generally, yes, I think there's more that we can do to better engage employers with the education system in lots and lots of different ways.


Well, the first thing to say is my understanding of the development of the bac is that employers' voices were reflected and they were part of the process that drew up the qualification in the first place. You'll be aware of the review by Qualifications Wales that found that many employers say that the skills that are developed through the baccalaureate are exactly the kinds of skills that they want young people to be acquiring whilst at school, that put them in a good place for looking for employment later. I would agree with you, Siân, and not just in terms of the bac, there are lots of reasons why we need greater working between education and employers. I sit down with employer organisations to try and explore better ways in which we can work together—everything from ensuring that children have work experience opportunities through to, for instance, what more some of our companies could do to take up governors' roles, for instance, in our local schools, so that employer voice and that business voice are heard at a school management level. I think these things are really important. It's something that's sometimes difficult. There are some excellent examples of really good practice where local employers work really closely with schools. I think of Sony in Bridgend doing a really, really, really good job working with their local schools. In other areas, where you haven't got such a big employer, it can be difficult, can't it, for a small business that is trying to do their small business to think about, 'Oh my goodness, I've got to do something to help improve the education system as well.' So, I'm always looking at new ways in which we can get that working together. As I said, the Qualifications Wales design group has a stakeholder group that is helping them with their review into the qualification at the moment, but there are really good examples where employers and other organisations are working together. We also need to continue, I think, to communicate more clearly with employers the nature of the qualification. Again, because it's relatively new, and the brands of the GCSE and A-level are so strong, people know what they are, unless you've either done the Welsh bac yourself or you have a son or a daughter, or a grandson or granddaughter who has gone through the process, you're probably going to be less familiar, and we need to continue to work together with the WJEC and Qualifications Wales as a Government to better communicate the value of the qualification.

So, you agree that there is a specific piece of work that needs to be done around employers and that the Government should be leading that.

Yes, and we are working closely with, as I said, Qualifications Wales to develop a joint communication plan, and we continue, as I said, as part of Qualifications Wales's review into the nature of the qualification—employers' voices are being heard as part of that particular piece of work. But more generally, yes, I think there's more that we can do to better engage employers with the education system in lots and lots of different ways.


So, you agree that there is a specific piece of work that needs to be done around employers and that the Government should be leading that.

Yes, and we are working closely with, as I said, Qualifications Wales to develop a joint communication plan, and we continue, as I said, as part of Qualifications Wales's review into the nature of the qualification—employers' voices are being heard as part of that particular piece of work. But more generally, yes, I think there's more that we can do to better engage employers with the education system in lots and lots of different ways.


Yes, and we are working closely with, as I said, Qualifications Wales to develop a joint communication plan, and we continue, as I said, as part of Qualifications Wales's review into the nature of the qualification—employers' voices are being heard as part of that particular piece of work. But more generally, yes, I think there's more that we can do to better engage employers with the education system in lots and lots of different ways.

Just before we move off this section, the variability that the committee has seen has been quite pronounced, really. We've been to a school where they've got a passionate and dedicated Welsh bac school leader, but then we've spoken to other schools where it's tagged on to a variety of teachers' roles, and that clearly has an impact on the way it's being taught. You said in your answer to Siân that you're trying to ensure more consistency in the delivery of it, and you referred to the performance measures; are the performance measures the main vehicle by which you're going to ensure consistency, or are you planning to issue any more guidance to schools on how it should be delivered on the ground?


Just before we move off this section, the variability that the committee has seen has been quite pronounced, really. We've been to a school where they've got a passionate and dedicated Welsh bac school leader, but then we've spoken to other schools where it's tagged on to a variety of teachers' roles, and that clearly has an impact on the way it's being taught. You said in your answer to Siân that you're trying to ensure more consistency in the delivery of it, and you referred to the performance measures; are the performance measures the main vehicle by which you're going to ensure consistency, or are you planning to issue any more guidance to schools on how it should be delivered on the ground?

We will need to reflect the work that Qualifications Wales is undertaking. Professional learning, I think, has a role to play as well as performance measures. So it's not just one thing that we can do that will change this, it is a number of things—everything from the communications plan to making sure that teachers who find themselves responsible for delivering this feel confident and have had the professional learning opportunities to give them the skills so that they do a great job in delivering a positive experience to students. The performance measures, of course, as we know—sometimes in schools, it is those that make schools focus on something. So there's a wide variety of ways in which I think we can look to ensure more consistency. But, in the end, I think it is professional learning and teacher training, ITE, that will make the biggest difference.


Just before we move off this section, the variability that the committee has seen has been quite pronounced, really. We've been to a school where they've got a passionate and dedicated Welsh bac school leader, but then we've spoken to other schools where it's tagged on to a variety of teachers' roles, and that clearly has an impact on the way it's being taught. You said in your answer to Siân that you're trying to ensure more consistency in the delivery of it, and you referred to the performance measures; are the performance measures the main vehicle by which you're going to ensure consistency, or are you planning to issue any more guidance to schools on how it should be delivered on the ground?

We will need to reflect the work that Qualifications Wales is undertaking. Professional learning, I think, has a role to play as well as performance measures. So it's not just one thing that we can do that will change this, it is a number of things—everything from the communications plan to making sure that teachers who find themselves responsible for delivering this feel confident and have had the professional learning opportunities to give them the skills so that they do a great job in delivering a positive experience to students. The performance measures, of course, as we know—sometimes in schools, it is those that make schools focus on something. So there's a wide variety of ways in which I think we can look to ensure more consistency. But, in the end, I think it is professional learning and teacher training, ITE, that will make the biggest difference.

Okay. And just on understanding, one of the things the young people in Crickhowell told us was that they thought the name should be changed. They felt that it wasn't reflective of exactly what the qualification is and that maybe having something that was clearer would be better. Is that something you've considered?


Just before we move off this section, the variability that the committee has seen has been quite pronounced, really. We've been to a school where they've got a passionate and dedicated Welsh bac school leader, but then we've spoken to other schools where it's tagged on to a variety of teachers' roles, and that clearly has an impact on the way it's being taught. You said in your answer to Siân that you're trying to ensure more consistency in the delivery of it, and you referred to the performance measures; are the performance measures the main vehicle by which you're going to ensure consistency, or are you planning to issue any more guidance to schools on how it should be delivered on the ground?

We will need to reflect the work that Qualifications Wales is undertaking. Professional learning, I think, has a role to play as well as performance measures. So it's not just one thing that we can do that will change this, it is a number of things—everything from the communications plan to making sure that teachers who find themselves responsible for delivering this feel confident and have had the professional learning opportunities to give them the skills so that they do a great job in delivering a positive experience to students. The performance measures, of course, as we know—sometimes in schools, it is those that make schools focus on something. So there's a wide variety of ways in which I think we can look to ensure more consistency. But, in the end, I think it is professional learning and teacher training, ITE, that will make the biggest difference.

Okay. And just on understanding, one of the things the young people in Crickhowell told us was that they thought the name should be changed. They felt that it wasn't reflective of exactly what the qualification is and that maybe having something that was clearer would be better. Is that something you've considered?

Well, first of all, I need to declare an interest, because that's the school my daughter goes to, and I don't know if she was the one—


We will need to reflect the work that Qualifications Wales is undertaking. Professional learning, I think, has a role to play as well as performance measures. So it's not just one thing that we can do that will change this, it is a number of things—everything from the communications plan to making sure that teachers who find themselves responsible for delivering this feel confident and have had the professional learning opportunities to give them the skills so that they do a great job in delivering a positive experience to students. The performance measures, of course, as we know—sometimes in schools, it is those that make schools focus on something. So there's a wide variety of ways in which I think we can look to ensure more consistency. But, in the end, I think it is professional learning and teacher training, ITE, that will make the biggest difference.

Okay. And just on understanding, one of the things the young people in Crickhowell told us was that they thought the name should be changed. They felt that it wasn't reflective of exactly what the qualification is and that maybe having something that was clearer would be better. Is that something you've considered?

Well, first of all, I need to declare an interest, because that's the school my daughter goes to, and I don't know if she was the one—


Okay. And just on understanding, one of the things the young people in Crickhowell told us was that they thought the name should be changed. They felt that it wasn't reflective of exactly what the qualification is and that maybe having something that was clearer would be better. Is that something you've considered?

Well, first of all, I need to declare an interest, because that's the school my daughter goes to, and I don't know if she was the one—

She wasn't the one who said that. Certainly, I'd have to reflect. My gut instinct tells me that one of the issues that we have is developing an understanding of the brand and what that qualification is, and if we move away from 'Welsh bac' and suddenly start to call it something else, I think that could be even harder and set us back from where we are. So, that's not to dismiss it, and I would want to reflect on those views, but I think if one of the issues that we've got is developing a better understanding of the qualification; if we were to suddenly change the name of it, that might have the unintended consequence of making that job even harder. But, obviously, if the committee was to make a recommendation, we would—I'm happy to reflect on that evidence, but, as I said, my gut instinct would tell me that there could be an unintended consequence of moving away from that brand.


Well, first of all, I need to declare an interest, because that's the school my daughter goes to, and I don't know if she was the one—

She wasn't the one who said that. Certainly, I'd have to reflect. My gut instinct tells me that one of the issues that we have is developing an understanding of the brand and what that qualification is, and if we move away from 'Welsh bac' and suddenly start to call it something else, I think that could be even harder and set us back from where we are. So, that's not to dismiss it, and I would want to reflect on those views, but I think if one of the issues that we've got is developing a better understanding of the qualification; if we were to suddenly change the name of it, that might have the unintended consequence of making that job even harder. But, obviously, if the committee was to make a recommendation, we would—I'm happy to reflect on that evidence, but, as I said, my gut instinct would tell me that there could be an unintended consequence of moving away from that brand.

Okay. Thank you. The next questions are from Dawn Bowden.


She wasn't the one who said that. Certainly, I'd have to reflect. My gut instinct tells me that one of the issues that we have is developing an understanding of the brand and what that qualification is, and if we move away from 'Welsh bac' and suddenly start to call it something else, I think that could be even harder and set us back from where we are. So, that's not to dismiss it, and I would want to reflect on those views, but I think if one of the issues that we've got is developing a better understanding of the qualification; if we were to suddenly change the name of it, that might have the unintended consequence of making that job even harder. But, obviously, if the committee was to make a recommendation, we would—I'm happy to reflect on that evidence, but, as I said, my gut instinct would tell me that there could be an unintended consequence of moving away from that brand.

Okay. Thank you. The next questions are from Dawn Bowden.

Thank you, Chair. You touched on this once or twice in answers to questions about how rigorous the qualification is. We've had mixed evidence, I would suggest, from groups of stakeholders. We've heard people say that the Welsh bac has no rigour, that pupils are spoon-fed. We've heard that the Welsh bac is passively marked, the grades are inflated, that there's little rigour in the sampling and moderation, there's a confusion about how the SCC is graded, and I know that's something you talked about, actually, that introducing the grading system is improving the rigour. I suppose my question to you is: if the Welsh bac is being seen in this way by stakeholders, how are going to address that? To what extent is that a real problem?


She wasn't the one who said that. Certainly, I'd have to reflect. My gut instinct tells me that one of the issues that we have is developing an understanding of the brand and what that qualification is, and if we move away from 'Welsh bac' and suddenly start to call it something else, I think that could be even harder and set us back from where we are. So, that's not to dismiss it, and I would want to reflect on those views, but I think if one of the issues that we've got is developing a better understanding of the qualification; if we were to suddenly change the name of it, that might have the unintended consequence of making that job even harder. But, obviously, if the committee was to make a recommendation, we would—I'm happy to reflect on that evidence, but, as I said, my gut instinct would tell me that there could be an unintended consequence of moving away from that brand.

Okay. Thank you. The next questions are from Dawn Bowden.

Thank you, Chair. You touched on this once or twice in answers to questions about how rigorous the qualification is. We've had mixed evidence, I would suggest, from groups of stakeholders. We've heard people say that the Welsh bac has no rigour, that pupils are spoon-fed. We've heard that the Welsh bac is passively marked, the grades are inflated, that there's little rigour in the sampling and moderation, there's a confusion about how the SCC is graded, and I know that's something you talked about, actually, that introducing the grading system is improving the rigour. I suppose my question to you is: if the Welsh bac is being seen in this way by stakeholders, how are going to address that? To what extent is that a real problem?

I think making it a graded qualification has been really important, and I make no apologies for this qualification being rigorous—no apologies for that at all. That's how it should be, and that's how you create value, by ensuring that a qualification is rigorous. What's really important is that it's not just me saying that it's rigorous; there is an independent process that benchmarks qualifications. The fact is that at advanced level—because I don't know if you're making these observations about the pre-16 Welsh bac, or whether we're talking about the advanced level qualification—that is the equivalent of an A-level. It's been benchmarked against A-levels. It has a UCAS tariff associated with it. It is used by universities as a means of qualification that gains entrance into a university in just the same way as an A-level is. So, therefore, I don't have any concerns about the rigour of the qualification. In terms of spoon-feeding, one of the reasons why universities like the qualification is that it's very difficult, for instance, in the individual project work to be spoon-fed. It is very demanding of individual students, and it's very difficult in a way. That's one of the reasons why it's valuable, isn't it, because it teaches a different set of skills? Because if you're doing a traditional, say, history A-level or a science A-level, there's a very strict syllabus and a course, there's a textbook and people are taught to that particular syllabus; with the Welsh bac, it is individual students that have to think, for instance, of their own individual project. You can't get those off a shelf, and you can't necessarily just find that information easily. There's real skill involved in being able to do that well and get graded well for that. So, I do not have concerns about the rigour. I do have concerns about some of the feedback by Qualifications Wales about the onerousness of the evaluation and what that means for teacher workload, which is one of the things that Qualifications Wales is looking at. But in terms of rigour and people being spoon-fed, then I don't share those concerns.


Okay. Thank you. The next questions are from Dawn Bowden.

Thank you, Chair. You touched on this once or twice in answers to questions about how rigorous the qualification is. We've had mixed evidence, I would suggest, from groups of stakeholders. We've heard people say that the Welsh bac has no rigour, that pupils are spoon-fed. We've heard that the Welsh bac is passively marked, the grades are inflated, that there's little rigour in the sampling and moderation, there's a confusion about how the SCC is graded, and I know that's something you talked about, actually, that introducing the grading system is improving the rigour. I suppose my question to you is: if the Welsh bac is being seen in this way by stakeholders, how are going to address that? To what extent is that a real problem?

I think making it a graded qualification has been really important, and I make no apologies for this qualification being rigorous—no apologies for that at all. That's how it should be, and that's how you create value, by ensuring that a qualification is rigorous. What's really important is that it's not just me saying that it's rigorous; there is an independent process that benchmarks qualifications. The fact is that at advanced level—because I don't know if you're making these observations about the pre-16 Welsh bac, or whether we're talking about the advanced level qualification—that is the equivalent of an A-level. It's been benchmarked against A-levels. It has a UCAS tariff associated with it. It is used by universities as a means of qualification that gains entrance into a university in just the same way as an A-level is. So, therefore, I don't have any concerns about the rigour of the qualification. In terms of spoon-feeding, one of the reasons why universities like the qualification is that it's very difficult, for instance, in the individual project work to be spoon-fed. It is very demanding of individual students, and it's very difficult in a way. That's one of the reasons why it's valuable, isn't it, because it teaches a different set of skills? Because if you're doing a traditional, say, history A-level or a science A-level, there's a very strict syllabus and a course, there's a textbook and people are taught to that particular syllabus; with the Welsh bac, it is individual students that have to think, for instance, of their own individual project. You can't get those off a shelf, and you can't necessarily just find that information easily. There's real skill involved in being able to do that well and get graded well for that. So, I do not have concerns about the rigour. I do have concerns about some of the feedback by Qualifications Wales about the onerousness of the evaluation and what that means for teacher workload, which is one of the things that Qualifications Wales is looking at. But in terms of rigour and people being spoon-fed, then I don't share those concerns.

Okay, because those were concerns, in the main, that were articulated by people delivering the Welsh bac—by teachers. So, I suppose the question then comes back to some of the other points that were being raised about the consistency, because that may well be from those teachers in schools where they're not taking the bac as seriously as some others are.


Thank you, Chair. You touched on this once or twice in answers to questions about how rigorous the qualification is. We've had mixed evidence, I would suggest, from groups of stakeholders. We've heard people say that the Welsh bac has no rigour, that pupils are spoon-fed. We've heard that the Welsh bac is passively marked, the grades are inflated, that there's little rigour in the sampling and moderation, there's a confusion about how the SCC is graded, and I know that's something you talked about, actually, that introducing the grading system is improving the rigour. I suppose my question to you is: if the Welsh bac is being seen in this way by stakeholders, how are going to address that? To what extent is that a real problem?

I think making it a graded qualification has been really important, and I make no apologies for this qualification being rigorous—no apologies for that at all. That's how it should be, and that's how you create value, by ensuring that a qualification is rigorous. What's really important is that it's not just me saying that it's rigorous; there is an independent process that benchmarks qualifications. The fact is that at advanced level—because I don't know if you're making these observations about the pre-16 Welsh bac, or whether we're talking about the advanced level qualification—that is the equivalent of an A-level. It's been benchmarked against A-levels. It has a UCAS tariff associated with it. It is used by universities as a means of qualification that gains entrance into a university in just the same way as an A-level is. So, therefore, I don't have any concerns about the rigour of the qualification. In terms of spoon-feeding, one of the reasons why universities like the qualification is that it's very difficult, for instance, in the individual project work to be spoon-fed. It is very demanding of individual students, and it's very difficult in a way. That's one of the reasons why it's valuable, isn't it, because it teaches a different set of skills? Because if you're doing a traditional, say, history A-level or a science A-level, there's a very strict syllabus and a course, there's a textbook and people are taught to that particular syllabus; with the Welsh bac, it is individual students that have to think, for instance, of their own individual project. You can't get those off a shelf, and you can't necessarily just find that information easily. There's real skill involved in being able to do that well and get graded well for that. So, I do not have concerns about the rigour. I do have concerns about some of the feedback by Qualifications Wales about the onerousness of the evaluation and what that means for teacher workload, which is one of the things that Qualifications Wales is looking at. But in terms of rigour and people being spoon-fed, then I don't share those concerns.

Okay, because those were concerns, in the main, that were articulated by people delivering the Welsh bac—by teachers. So, I suppose the question then comes back to some of the other points that were being raised about the consistency, because that may well be from those teachers in schools where they're not taking the bac as seriously as some others are.

And, of course, there would be—. There is a professional responsibility for those teachers delivering that qualification to ensure that the ethos of that qualification and the skills—. It would potentially be a disservice to students if that qualification was being delivered in that way.


I think making it a graded qualification has been really important, and I make no apologies for this qualification being rigorous—no apologies for that at all. That's how it should be, and that's how you create value, by ensuring that a qualification is rigorous. What's really important is that it's not just me saying that it's rigorous; there is an independent process that benchmarks qualifications. The fact is that at advanced level—because I don't know if you're making these observations about the pre-16 Welsh bac, or whether we're talking about the advanced level qualification—that is the equivalent of an A-level. It's been benchmarked against A-levels. It has a UCAS tariff associated with it. It is used by universities as a means of qualification that gains entrance into a university in just the same way as an A-level is. So, therefore, I don't have any concerns about the rigour of the qualification. In terms of spoon-feeding, one of the reasons why universities like the qualification is that it's very difficult, for instance, in the individual project work to be spoon-fed. It is very demanding of individual students, and it's very difficult in a way. That's one of the reasons why it's valuable, isn't it, because it teaches a different set of skills? Because if you're doing a traditional, say, history A-level or a science A-level, there's a very strict syllabus and a course, there's a textbook and people are taught to that particular syllabus; with the Welsh bac, it is individual students that have to think, for instance, of their own individual project. You can't get those off a shelf, and you can't necessarily just find that information easily. There's real skill involved in being able to do that well and get graded well for that. So, I do not have concerns about the rigour. I do have concerns about some of the feedback by Qualifications Wales about the onerousness of the evaluation and what that means for teacher workload, which is one of the things that Qualifications Wales is looking at. But in terms of rigour and people being spoon-fed, then I don't share those concerns.

Okay, because those were concerns, in the main, that were articulated by people delivering the Welsh bac—by teachers. So, I suppose the question then comes back to some of the other points that were being raised about the consistency, because that may well be from those teachers in schools where they're not taking the bac as seriously as some others are.

And, of course, there would be—. There is a professional responsibility for those teachers delivering that qualification to ensure that the ethos of that qualification and the skills—. It would potentially be a disservice to students if that qualification was being delivered in that way.

And I think what I was trying to do was to highlight the different opinions, because we also heard from teachers who were saying that those involved with teaching and studying understood absolutely its rigour, so it was the mixed message, I guess, I was just trying to test out with you. Similarly, on the skills challenge certificate, again we've heard from various stakeholders about whether, in fact, this is considered to be an equivalent qualification. We've heard people say that it is different—it's not the same as an A-level—so, therefore you can't absolutely hold it up and say it's the same as an A-level. It requires different skills, and so on and so forth. So, just your thoughts and views on that, really, as an equivalent qualification.


Okay, because those were concerns, in the main, that were articulated by people delivering the Welsh bac—by teachers. So, I suppose the question then comes back to some of the other points that were being raised about the consistency, because that may well be from those teachers in schools where they're not taking the bac as seriously as some others are.

And, of course, there would be—. There is a professional responsibility for those teachers delivering that qualification to ensure that the ethos of that qualification and the skills—. It would potentially be a disservice to students if that qualification was being delivered in that way.

And I think what I was trying to do was to highlight the different opinions, because we also heard from teachers who were saying that those involved with teaching and studying understood absolutely its rigour, so it was the mixed message, I guess, I was just trying to test out with you. Similarly, on the skills challenge certificate, again we've heard from various stakeholders about whether, in fact, this is considered to be an equivalent qualification. We've heard people say that it is different—it's not the same as an A-level—so, therefore you can't absolutely hold it up and say it's the same as an A-level. It requires different skills, and so on and so forth. So, just your thoughts and views on that, really, as an equivalent qualification.

It's not a question of if this is an equivalent qualification; this is an equivalent qualification. There is a rigorous process that is undertaken to evaluate these qualifications independent of the Government, and it's not a question. Is it a different model and a different way of studying? Yes, of course it is, and that's why we do it. That's why I want children and young people to do both sets of qualifications, because it does engage and expand the acquisition of knowledge and skills. So, yes, it's different. Is it equivalent? Yes, it is, and that's why, since the graded qualification came in, it is regarded by independent bodies as an equivalent to an A-level, and it has a tariff for UCAS in the same way as A-levels would have tariffs. You only have to speak to the institutes of higher education who use this qualification as a way of setting grades—you know, offers—for students that they see that in the same way as well.


And, of course, there would be—. There is a professional responsibility for those teachers delivering that qualification to ensure that the ethos of that qualification and the skills—. It would potentially be a disservice to students if that qualification was being delivered in that way.

And I think what I was trying to do was to highlight the different opinions, because we also heard from teachers who were saying that those involved with teaching and studying understood absolutely its rigour, so it was the mixed message, I guess, I was just trying to test out with you. Similarly, on the skills challenge certificate, again we've heard from various stakeholders about whether, in fact, this is considered to be an equivalent qualification. We've heard people say that it is different—it's not the same as an A-level—so, therefore you can't absolutely hold it up and say it's the same as an A-level. It requires different skills, and so on and so forth. So, just your thoughts and views on that, really, as an equivalent qualification.

It's not a question of if this is an equivalent qualification; this is an equivalent qualification. There is a rigorous process that is undertaken to evaluate these qualifications independent of the Government, and it's not a question. Is it a different model and a different way of studying? Yes, of course it is, and that's why we do it. That's why I want children and young people to do both sets of qualifications, because it does engage and expand the acquisition of knowledge and skills. So, yes, it's different. Is it equivalent? Yes, it is, and that's why, since the graded qualification came in, it is regarded by independent bodies as an equivalent to an A-level, and it has a tariff for UCAS in the same way as A-levels would have tariffs. You only have to speak to the institutes of higher education who use this qualification as a way of setting grades—you know, offers—for students that they see that in the same way as well.


And I think what I was trying to do was to highlight the different opinions, because we also heard from teachers who were saying that those involved with teaching and studying understood absolutely its rigour, so it was the mixed message, I guess, I was just trying to test out with you. Similarly, on the skills challenge certificate, again we've heard from various stakeholders about whether, in fact, this is considered to be an equivalent qualification. We've heard people say that it is different—it's not the same as an A-level—so, therefore you can't absolutely hold it up and say it's the same as an A-level. It requires different skills, and so on and so forth. So, just your thoughts and views on that, really, as an equivalent qualification.

It's not a question of if this is an equivalent qualification; this is an equivalent qualification. There is a rigorous process that is undertaken to evaluate these qualifications independent of the Government, and it's not a question. Is it a different model and a different way of studying? Yes, of course it is, and that's why we do it. That's why I want children and young people to do both sets of qualifications, because it does engage and expand the acquisition of knowledge and skills. So, yes, it's different. Is it equivalent? Yes, it is, and that's why, since the graded qualification came in, it is regarded by independent bodies as an equivalent to an A-level, and it has a tariff for UCAS in the same way as A-levels would have tariffs. You only have to speak to the institutes of higher education who use this qualification as a way of setting grades—you know, offers—for students that they see that in the same way as well.

Suzy's got a supplementary before we go on to talk in detail about universities.


It's not a question of if this is an equivalent qualification; this is an equivalent qualification. There is a rigorous process that is undertaken to evaluate these qualifications independent of the Government, and it's not a question. Is it a different model and a different way of studying? Yes, of course it is, and that's why we do it. That's why I want children and young people to do both sets of qualifications, because it does engage and expand the acquisition of knowledge and skills. So, yes, it's different. Is it equivalent? Yes, it is, and that's why, since the graded qualification came in, it is regarded by independent bodies as an equivalent to an A-level, and it has a tariff for UCAS in the same way as A-levels would have tariffs. You only have to speak to the institutes of higher education who use this qualification as a way of setting grades—you know, offers—for students that they see that in the same way as well.

Suzy's got a supplementary before we go on to talk in detail about universities.

Is that okay? Because I just want to go back to this element of spoon-feeding at post 16, where you said it's actually very difficult for that to occur, because, obviously, we're talking about the personal project, and so forth. We heard evidence in one of the schools sessions we did that baccalaureate students were being offered a very short and narrow list of subjects on which they could do their personal project, which actually limited the scope of what they were able to do. And we've also heard separately—it may have been with the colleges, I can't quite remember now—that some students were being told, 'On your personal project, just put in what you did for your GCSE-level baccalaureate, and add a few paragraphs.' I'm wondering how easy it is to disguise spoon-feeding at post 16 when we've got two instances there that, to me, suggest it's more about the convenience of the teachers, who perhaps may not be very enthusiastic about the bac, rather than making sure those children get the best out of the qualification.


Suzy's got a supplementary before we go on to talk in detail about universities.

Is that okay? Because I just want to go back to this element of spoon-feeding at post 16, where you said it's actually very difficult for that to occur, because, obviously, we're talking about the personal project, and so forth. We heard evidence in one of the schools sessions we did that baccalaureate students were being offered a very short and narrow list of subjects on which they could do their personal project, which actually limited the scope of what they were able to do. And we've also heard separately—it may have been with the colleges, I can't quite remember now—that some students were being told, 'On your personal project, just put in what you did for your GCSE-level baccalaureate, and add a few paragraphs.' I'm wondering how easy it is to disguise spoon-feeding at post 16 when we've got two instances there that, to me, suggest it's more about the convenience of the teachers, who perhaps may not be very enthusiastic about the bac, rather than making sure those children get the best out of the qualification.

Yes. And that would be really disappointing. And, again, if I can use my own personal family experience, my daughter has tried that on with her Welsh bac teacher. She's in a different school from where she did her earlier bac, and she said, 'Oh, well, I'll just rehash my "Votes at 16" that I did last year', and the Welsh bac teacher has said, 'Under no circumstances are you to do that—no, that's not allowed.' This is about using your individual project, linked to something that maybe you hope to study at university, to get the value out of this qualification, and for you to be able to use this in your personal statement, and potentially in an interview. So, again, I guess what this does is show that there's a variation, but certainly, where it is being delivered well, then that practice would not be encouraged, because it would be seen to be—


Is that okay? Because I just want to go back to this element of spoon-feeding at post 16, where you said it's actually very difficult for that to occur, because, obviously, we're talking about the personal project, and so forth. We heard evidence in one of the schools sessions we did that baccalaureate students were being offered a very short and narrow list of subjects on which they could do their personal project, which actually limited the scope of what they were able to do. And we've also heard separately—it may have been with the colleges, I can't quite remember now—that some students were being told, 'On your personal project, just put in what you did for your GCSE-level baccalaureate, and add a few paragraphs.' I'm wondering how easy it is to disguise spoon-feeding at post 16 when we've got two instances there that, to me, suggest it's more about the convenience of the teachers, who perhaps may not be very enthusiastic about the bac, rather than making sure those children get the best out of the qualification.

Yes. And that would be really disappointing. And, again, if I can use my own personal family experience, my daughter has tried that on with her Welsh bac teacher. She's in a different school from where she did her earlier bac, and she said, 'Oh, well, I'll just rehash my "Votes at 16" that I did last year', and the Welsh bac teacher has said, 'Under no circumstances are you to do that—no, that's not allowed.' This is about using your individual project, linked to something that maybe you hope to study at university, to get the value out of this qualification, and for you to be able to use this in your personal statement, and potentially in an interview. So, again, I guess what this does is show that there's a variation, but certainly, where it is being delivered well, then that practice would not be encouraged, because it would be seen to be—

—denuding the students of the very valuable experience the qualification has to offer.


Yes. And that would be really disappointing. And, again, if I can use my own personal family experience, my daughter has tried that on with her Welsh bac teacher. She's in a different school from where she did her earlier bac, and she said, 'Oh, well, I'll just rehash my "Votes at 16" that I did last year', and the Welsh bac teacher has said, 'Under no circumstances are you to do that—no, that's not allowed.' This is about using your individual project, linked to something that maybe you hope to study at university, to get the value out of this qualification, and for you to be able to use this in your personal statement, and potentially in an interview. So, again, I guess what this does is show that there's a variation, but certainly, where it is being delivered well, then that practice would not be encouraged, because it would be seen to be—

—denuding the students of the very valuable experience the qualification has to offer.


—denuding the students of the very valuable experience the qualification has to offer.

Okay. We've got some questions now on how universities view it. Hefin David.


—denuding the students of the very valuable experience the qualification has to offer.

Okay. We've got some questions now on how universities view it. Hefin David.

We've had an online survey response, which was quite a stark comment, not from the vice-chancellor's office, but from a member of staff within Cardiff University. And it said: 'The Welsh Bacc is not a fair substitute for a full A-level, and should not be regarded as such. I consider it to be a disadvantage for Welsh students, compared with their English counterparts.' Can you reflect on that?


Okay. We've got some questions now on how universities view it. Hefin David.

We've had an online survey response, which was quite a stark comment, not from the vice-chancellor's office, but from a member of staff within Cardiff University. And it said: 'The Welsh Bacc is not a fair substitute for a full A-level, and should not be regarded as such. I consider it to be a disadvantage for Welsh students, compared with their English counterparts.' Can you reflect on that?


Okay. We've got some questions now on how universities view it. Hefin David.

We've had an online survey response, which was quite a stark comment, not from the vice-chancellor's office, but from a member of staff within Cardiff University. And it said: 'The Welsh Bacc is not a fair substitute for a full A-level, and should not be regarded as such. I consider it to be a disadvantage for Welsh students, compared with their English counterparts.' Can you reflect on that?

Do you think that that's a view that's held within universities, and are you concerned about that? Because it is a view that's obviously held within Cardiff University.


We've had an online survey response, which was quite a stark comment, not from the vice-chancellor's office, but from a member of staff within Cardiff University. And it said: 'The Welsh Bacc is not a fair substitute for a full A-level, and should not be regarded as such. I consider it to be a disadvantage for Welsh students, compared with their English counterparts.' Can you reflect on that?

Do you think that that's a view that's held within universities, and are you concerned about that? Because it is a view that's obviously held within Cardiff University.

No; I would say that that is a view held by an individual in Cardiff University—


Do you think that that's a view that's held within universities, and are you concerned about that? Because it is a view that's obviously held within Cardiff University.

No; I would say that that is a view held by an individual in Cardiff University—


Do you think that that's a view that's held within universities, and are you concerned about that? Because it is a view that's obviously held within Cardiff University.

No; I would say that that is a view held by an individual in Cardiff University—

Well, that is a view held by an individual in Cardiff University. And, actually, Cardiff University—indeed, all Welsh universities—accept the Welsh baccalaureate as an A-level equivalent. I think it is really important to reflect on the wide range of opportunities at higher education that the Welsh bac affords individuals. That means that it is deemed as an equivalent to A-level for the vast majority of universities, to get in to some of the most competitive courses, such as dentistry, medicine, veterinary science. So, those courses where we know there's a high demand and high competition for places, there are institutions that are using that, including Cardiff to get into their medical degree.