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# Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...35

## Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

(OP)
This is a continuation of the original thread, which had gotten a bit too long:

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Interesting wording in that article,
"Erroneous"
"Mistake"
"Overcharged"

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

#### Quote (Fischstabchen)

Redsnake,

Try to make a car or more complicated than a spoon or cup without petroleum products.

From the first Texas power.. thread.
thread815-479631: How to go green without failures and disasters?

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

#### Quote:

The Public Utility Commission ignored its independent monitor’s recommendation to retroactively reduce the market price for power for at least part of the week of the winter storm.
Exactly what I said they should do.
But they've come up with this BS excuse.

#### Quote:

D’Andrea added that a retroactive decision would have winners and losers: “You don’t know who you’re hurting. And you think you’re protecting the consumer, and it turns out you’re bankrupting [someone else].”

Fred

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I guess they didn't stop buying power like the higher price was supposed to force them do to keep the grid working. Silly people. They obviously should just have switched off and blacked out Waco.

Really, can you believe these guys at PUC. $20 to$9000 in a week!

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

The conspiracy theories are getting wild.
Biden manipulated the weather.
Bill Gates blocked the sun.
The snow was fake government snow.
The post, which was forwarded to other channels and viewed more than 150,000 times, falsely claimed that the situation in Texas "was a planned attack."
Prominent Republicans, Fox News hosts, and conservative websites have pushed the idea that wind and solar energy are to blame for Texas' disaster.
The right-wing narrative has also blamed the Green New Deal for the disaster, though no legislation from that leftist congressional climate-change proposal has passed.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

you forgot to include, "and the wealthy got more wealthy."

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

#### Quote (Dik)

you forgot to include, "and the wealthy got more wealthy."
I was listing conspiracy theories, not "The Cold Hard Facts of Life". grin
(Emphasis on "Cold")

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Free market works on a free market, not an oligopoly.
When the demand exceeds the supply, it is no longer a free market.
Someone is making billions of dollars in excess profit.
When the majority of the people accept grade 5 level knee jerk economics, the stage is set for real world economics to bankrupt them.
Remember; the same voters that let their elected representatives set the stage for this rip off, probably voted for Trump.
No, Hokie, I'm not blaming Trump.
I am pointing out that;
Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

#### Quote (Wiki)

In 1985, Kenneth Lay merged the natural gas pipeline companies of Houston Natural Gas and InterNorth to form Enron.[6]:3 In the early 1990s, he helped to initiate the selling of electricity at market prices and, soon after, Congress approved legislation deregulating the sale of natural gas. The resulting markets made it possible for traders such as Enron to sell energy at higher prices, thereby significantly increasing its revenue.[7] After producers and local governments decried the resultant price volatility and asked for increased regulation, strong lobbying on the part of Enron and others prevented such regulation.[7][8]

"And the rich got richer".

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

A simple solution going forward.
Full disclosure;

Legislation to require the following sentence to be included in all variable rate contracts.
The sentence to prominent, capitalized, and in large font.

BY SIGNING THIS DOCUMENT, I UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE VARIABLE RATE THAT I AM CONTRACTING FOR MAY INCREASE FROM THE PRESENT RATE OF $0.10 PER KILO-WATT-HOUR TO A MAXIMUM RATE OF$9000 PER KILO-WATT-HOUR.

SIGNED___________________________

With this in mind, how about a class action suit seeking to void all consumer variable rate contracts on the grounds of lack of full disclosure?

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

How much work is it to winterise the gas wells and other must have sites? I presume they don't need to do all of it if they have a proper plan for for next time to have rolling blackouts.

I can't see them getting much of the cash generated by peak price anyway. It seems that a sizable proportion of the customer retailers are going bust so won't pay anyway. The largest and most financially robust co-operative filed for chapter 11 last week. And if it can't sink the 3 days of peak charge then the others won't be able to anyway. So quiet who will cough up the cash to the suppliers is anyone's guess.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

There are some hidden problems that do not appear to be addressed aequately, which implies that there is a risk a serious interruption in supply may occur in the medium term.

The first issue is that every single large US central station ( fossil fired) has had its boiler/ steam generator built according to ASME section I, which has no defined provisions for fatigue damage of pressure parts. These large plants were assumed to startup once per year, and shutdown only for annual inspection, but now are required to startup once per day,incurring about 365 times more fatigue damage than originally assumed.Fatigue failure of a major pressure part can imply an extended outage for replacement, lowering the reserve margins.

The second issue is that the buildup of new wind farms in the central states of the US will require several large UHVDC transmission lines to transmit the power to the coastal cities, and these DC lines are vulnerable to disruption due to solar CME coronal mass ejections, as occured with the canadian DC transmmission lines from newfoundland hydropower that led to a nationwide blackout in march 1989.

The third issue is that relying primarily to gas fired peaking and cycling power plants in the eastern half of the US is raising the stakes for the consequences of a failure in the natural gas supply system, such as the 2015 aliso canyon faiure in california that led to months of forced outages for the area's gas fired power plants. In particular , the northeast is highly dependent on the gas reservoir in pennsylvania, and a similar failure in the winter would be catastrophic to residents on the east coast.

The fourth issue is that the mechanical reliability of wind farms is not all it was cracked up to be, with failures of the bearings and gear reducers leading to faster retirement of wind turbines than originally assumed in the financial calculations for rate of return. Apparently the 20 yr MTBF spec'ed for each part implies an overall MTBF of about 8 yrs for the composite mechanism considering the many parts that can individually contribute to failure of the turbine. Online monitoring of vibration and temperatures may improve the overall relaibility, but there will also need to be a large increase in the maintainence staff to address field repairs.

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I don't think that chapter 11 bankruptcy will save the consumers.
Chapter 11 allows the companies to continue to operate and collect receivables from the customers over time.
Even if some utilities are sold, the debts receivable will be part of the assets passed to the new owners.
Chapter 11 may also be a legal maneuver to avoid statutes of limitations on the filing of liens that may otherwise wipe out some debt.
And the rich got richer.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Most of the ones that have gone chapter 11 are fixed rate supplier's so the consumers won't get hit.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

FacEngr, and all

Determining Rational Design Criteria

Granted that large hurricanes have occurred in the past and these latest ones may not have been the worst, but there are two other things you must also watch out for too. Are there changes to frequency and are there trending tendencies? Are the averages, or better "moving averages" of either of those changing over your time history? Both could indicate that some causation factor is at work, maybe not. For example, a rising moving average wave height, a max wave height, max wind speeds, or max flood stage river levels can cause us trouble. Changes in either may affect our design conditions. A rising moving average of max wave height would suggest that we think about increasing the design criteria of the minimum height between the lower deck and the highest mean sea level. An increasing frequency of high wave data suggests that our present 100yr and 1000yr design wave heights might be too small.

Say we have offshore platform with following design criteria,
Wave Criteria #1, Any offshore platform should be built such that the lower deck remains above a wave height with a return period of 100yrs or less and not experience any significant damage.
#2 is that a platform should survive a wave height with a return period of 1000yrs or less. If the frequency of either the presently defined 100 or 1000 year wave heights are observed to be increasing, the probability of their occurrence is increasing, meaning that the return periods of those wave heights are decreasing. 100yr waves might now have 86yr return periods. 1000yr waves may have 737yr return periods. Decreasing return periods of existing criteria implies that the criteria's present values are too low and they must be revised upwards to reflect new wave heights that will have the same expected frequencies of 100 and 1000yrs.

How do we rationally decide to revise our design criteria, or not? We get out our old wave data and look at all the waves ever recorded. We calculate the probabilities of each wave height in our old storm data and plot those against wave height. We calculate the expected return periods for all the waves in our old data and plot return periods against wave heights.

Now we do the same thing, but this time we include the new data recorded over, say the last 10 years that include some very large storms that we had never seen before. We plot the new curves and see that all our old wave height values now have a higher probability of occurring. We also see that the same return periods now show they have greater wave heights.

Yes, perhaps there were even bigger storms in the past that we were not aware of, but as the saying goes, "what you don't know can't hurt you" and that was fine until now, but now we do have an indication that some really big waves might have occurred in the past and we simply failed for some reason to have gotten them recorded into our old data base. We still do not know if they actually occurred, but everything points to their probable existence in the past. Logic follows that, if they probably existed in past storms, they probably exist today and we should think about including those waves in a revised design criteria based on all the new data and whatever foreseeable implications that may have on our designs. If we don't, some good lawyer with a consulting PhD in statistics at his side will surely beat us to pieces, if it turns out that some foreseeable event capsizes our platform. So we ask ourselves how much risk do we want to avert and set our design criteria accordingly, or API RP 2A adopts it as and we build the next platform according to that new recommended practice.

The additional problem that trends in the data can present to us is the possibility that there is causation of some kind taking place, or not. If we think there might be a cause, we might be able to foresee that and add some additional criteria to account for trends in our design, or we can just accept some risk doing nothing while realising that those trends might continue and quickly surpass even our new criteria. How much risk will we accept? We could also account for any trending in the latest data by working with moving averages of our data that would reduce any effects of old data while strengthening any affects of newer data. Including simply discarding the first 50yrs of 100yrs of data, if we thought that including all data would unduely bias our design to the low side and result in undersigning our work in the face of conditions we view as more prevalent in today's environment.

All of those questions raised in the above are answered, not by believing in climate change, or not, what causes it, or doesn't, it just boils down to the day to day practicality of quantify risk as best you can and finding out how much risk your CEO is willing to take, or not. At home, I can take whatever risk I think is appropriate for me.

I included the IExplorer vs Murders graph to make it obvious that you must be aware of what your data is, or is not going to tell you. I'm happy that the humor was appreciated.

Apologies to all those I bored writing stuff below pay grade.

I have a spreadsheet showing an example of how a typical design wave height criteria is made and revised according to the method I outlined above, should anyone be interested in the math.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Fisch, others
Definitely. One does have to believe that batteries will come, or if not, something else will. Pumped storage, H2. We just need to build some experimental works, hopefully sooner than later. Roll up our sleeves.... I hear that a large scale H2 system is being tested in England.

davefitz, all true to my limited knowledge. Nothing is all roses here, including the current impossible state of affairs. Checkmate in all directions and getting worse daily.

waross, true as ever, if not more so.

Alistair, we keep our fingers crossed that part works out. I'd recommend that they consider buying solar rooftops and their own batteries, if they still have any money left.

Gas wells vulnerable to water or gas hydrate freezing need one or both of these heaters, or methanol injection packages. The pipes connecting wells to gathering pipelines pass through a flow meter before reaching heating or injecting equipment, so if the temperature of the gas exiting the wells is not high, the pipe and meters will need insulation. Usually exit temp is high enough to make it to a heater, but not always, so meth injection may be first. Of course the injection pumps need a local electric source when city lights are out. Fuel cell gas to electric converters could work, but I have not done it that way. The equipment needs to be operating before plugs form, or you won't likely get up operating again until air temp rise. If gas is hot enough to get into underground pipelines, they might continue to flow as ground in South TX usually does not freeze and might remain warm, but you need to know ...
Lots of small gas wells, esp South of Austin, would not normally support the additional equipment and run costs, so they do not have that on site. Ever large flow wells might not. A lot of wells are owned by small time operators and they only worry about nothing until the bank calls.

https://www.exterran.com/Products/production-equip...
https://www.lewa.com/en/applications/methanol-inje...

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

#### Quote:

Why are you telling me that 21 cities with record lows is normal and snowing in in TX while its mild in MN apparently is totally normal? Can you blame me for thinking that you don't believe? But sorry for my confusion.

I get really sick of hearing this type of "lowest recorded temperature so it must be climate change" argument. I'd bet any day that those areas had lower lows then the recorded values before modern day temperature recording started. ~130 years of recorded data certainly doesn't prove what could happen and is far from enough data to actually know what 100 year weather events will be with any certainty. Yet, any bad weather event is called climate change. You can go ahead and call me a denier too now.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Well by all accounts they are looking like it is going to be a bumper market for solar installations this summer in Texas along with islanding and generator backup.

To the tune of whole numbers of % drop in residential demand.

Which of course will have knock on consequences for paying for the upgrades which are being considered.

But I am sure they will pass some new law to make it harder for people to escape.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I think there is something that we are missing.

Wind farms, solar panels, and batteries are short term assets, and are we to expect them to replace long term assets like coal and gas plants?

So what will we be changing to next? What of all those old short term assets? What will they look like in 25 years?

And if solar and wind are so cheap, why do we need tax breaks?

I also doubt oil, coal and gas will go away completely. They may be reduced in importance. After all lube oil, and plastics demand are not dropping very much.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

My argument was not about temperature so much as it was about TX being cold when MN was "mild", not to mention that was reversed within the week.

Its not the lowest lows or the highest highs that are important in the climate change argument anyway. 30 million years ago the temp everywhere could have been much hotter, for all I know, or 250,000 years ago much colder over some ice sheet. The highest highs or lowest lows ever present, known or unknown to us today are a problem but not the big problem. Plenty of plants and animals managed to live and prosper. The biggest problem is the rate of temperature change. Many species cannot adapt to rapid changes to temperature and the current predictions suggest the rate of temperature change will be more and more rapid. Even if I heat my volcanic stone briquetts too fast in my BBQ, even they explode. If I heat them slower, no rock bits get embedded in my burger. 50 yrs ago there were glaciers on the mountains that have been there since recorded history began, yet during the last 20yrs many have almost disappeared and the surrounding vegetation has changed. The old mosses are gone or retreated with the ice and different ones now take their place. Thats temperature change effect. I hope the new species turn out to be more advantageous for the world, cause if they're not, we may be in for a bad ride.
Not important how any one of us believe. Belief is just someone's perception of things they see and have experienced. Mine will be different than everyone else's to a large degree, just as yours might be too.
It isn't really important what anyone believes. The environmental changes from epoch to epoch are know through many diverse areas of research, from the thickness of tree rings, even petrified trees, and frozen bubbles of air and chemicals falling from the atmosphere a million years ago are there in the soil and ice cores contained in Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets and types of plants contained in many soil corings, onshore and off. Evidence of change is all around us, but you need to know where to look and you have to look for it.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Cranky,

#### Quote:

And if solar and wind are so cheap, why do we need tax breaks?

BECAUSE WE THINK WE NEED MORE CLEAN. Do you really want more smokestack?
Their fuel costs NOTHING. If you got money to pay for dirtier fuel. Buy a gasoline gen and run it 24/7.
If there is tax for you, there's road tax in that gasoline, it doesn't bother me if you have to pay. Your dirtying up my air. Smokers pay high tax for burning tobacco. Seems fair.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

and for the good news...

"Texas officials said they do not plan to reverse an estimated $16 billion in electricity overcharges incurred during a deep freeze that roiled the state's power grids and left millions without power last month. " Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better? -Dik ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... Most gas generators sold at local stores would not last three months. I'm not fool. My point is that I believe there is a problem ahead that we were not expecting. That may not be true for thermal solar units, but most of what is being built now is silicon based. Nucular may be a better option, than solar. ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... There's always problems ahead, any way you look. That's why there are engineers. All the new grads will have work. They might even solve some. Take nukes for example. We once thought there would be nukes everywhere by now. If the US started building nukes now to cover all expected demand for the next 100 years, they would always be well behind the required capacity. They just take too long to plan and build. They can't keep up with demand. Not that anyone would seriously propose that in the USA at this time. Why not buy yourself an industrial gen package and try to sell Japan, Ukraine and Germany on those nukes. It'll at least be good sales practice for the US, when or if ... ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... (OP) #### Quote (cranky108) And if solar and wind are so cheap, why do we need tax breaks? And I'm sure that back in 1916 people were asking the same thing about the 'oil depletion allowance', which is still in place today and which continues to allow American oil companies to reap millions of dollars in tax credits every year. And an interesting bit of trivia, despite the name 'oil depletion allowance', which is the official term for this particular tax break, it applies to more than just oil. In fact, for virtually ALL extraction industries, including mining, foresting, etc, there is a depletion allowance, running from as low as 5% for sand, gravel, and shale, to as high as 22% for sulfur and uranium, but gas and oil are still the big winners at 23%. John R. Baker, P.E. (ret) EX-Product 'Evangelist' Irvine, CA Siemens PLM: UG/NX Museum: The secret of life is not finding someone to live with It's finding someone you can't live without ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... Fair enough, why spew that crap about a cold snap was climate change then? I didn't yet point out that in the dam thread you posted rather vehement arguments against dams then mentioned pumped storage as an energy storage possibility here. For me, I start skipping over what you write when write nonsense like this. Starts to smell like baiting and arguing only for the sake of arguing. ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... dik, all the golden boys have already called their Farrari dealers. No going back now. If FERC, TX Att Gen or SEC don't move on it soon, the gov and PUC officers will have to be recalled before that will happen. As it is, they obviously don't give a damn. The old gas company I used to work for down in Laredo was named TransTexas Gas, but it was known locally as "Transylvanian Gas". Why? Because it sucked gas, oil and blood out of the rocks and everyone that got close enough. I used to say that if they paid us once a month, we'd all have enough cash to buy a full tank of gas and get the hell away. You had to have a full tank to put Laredo in the rear view mirror. Otherwise they'd just find us on the shoulder and tow us back in. ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... Lionel, Thanks for your honest comment. My intentions are to try to recognise and make use of the good advantages in all things and to try to recognize and solve the bad points of all things. I see every (engineering) problem as finding optimum solutions, so everything for me is always a trade off. To do that you have to be as objective as possible. If a thread is going down one path, I will often point out negative consequences of that path and advantages to an alternate path. Likewise the converse. I think that is what objectivity is all about. Seeking an optimum balanced solution might even require me to change my perspective in the same thread. I dont usually, but sometimes I might need to. I know I will never find optimum solutions unless I can recognise all the the good and all the bad consequences of my decisions. Is that not so? Sometimes maybe that seems like trolling, but I think it more as opening up an opportunity for further discussion and my trying to understand if there is simply someone's loosly formulated opinion, or solid logic behind the points in question. I always try to explain the reasons behind whatever I am discussing at the time, or will if questioned about it, so others can find fault or inconsistencies and I can correct my logic, if I think I need to. Will that be a problem? Nobody else has objected so far. I appreciate anyone's reading of what I write. That often takes a lot of my time and I hope I am not wasting that, or the time others take to read it, but that is their decision and maybe you do want to skip it. Up to you. At least I try to answer all serious questions with serious answers to my best ability, but I admit that I might throw a barb or two at flippant responses and those I think do not appear to be serious, or do not further a more complete understanding of the questions at hand. Not so unlike many others here. Sorry if you don't see it so. ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... Lionel Pumped storage storage is the most cost effective means of storing energy and it scales well. Look up Raccoon Mountain for a pumped storage facility here in the states that has been running since the Carter administration. Round trip efficiency for pumped storage can be 85%+ which kind of blew my mind. Raccoon Mountain is used like a daily peaker unit. Uses electricity at night to pump and it generates during the day. The only thing that is hard about pumped storage is that it is geographically specific. There is a TED talk on pumped storage on steroids about lifting rock instead of water. What they do is find an area with a large rock formation and cut a big deep circle and lift this column up and down with hydraulics. The numbers get better the larger the column because the ring increases only linearly with its radius but the column volume increases by its square. No one has bit on it as far as I know. ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... John Baker, people are still asking that same question, the one about depletion allowances. With some justification if I may add. IMO a complete rewrite of the US tax code is long overdue. How many pages is it now? Fisch, there is another version of that gravity storage scheme where a crane stacks massive concrete blocks higher and higher to store solar power. I doubted that it would work next to a wind farm, for obvious reasons , but I find no other busts in their logic. No water, no head available, why not? ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... 1503, I am not familiar with your example. Renewables want to offer firm service which they can get a higher premium for. Some wind farms had developers proposing putting big propane tanks on site to provide power when needed to meet the requirements of firm service. I am not familiar with the money numbers but it must be significant enough to bother with dumb stuff. ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... There is a large co2 loss associated with using crude oil as the source for the energy to upgrade and refine petroleum products. It's cheap. If we are willing to pay to reduce our carbon discharges, there is about a 40% reduction available by using alternate energy rather than crude oil to drive the upgrading and refining processes. If only one producer did this he would be at a financial disadvantage. If all producers did this then no one producer would have a great advantage over the others. Bill -------------------- Ohm's law Not just a good idea; It's the LAW! ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... Yes dumb ideas can be the order of the day at times. I was once on an Indian reservation somewhere outside Moapa, NV, trying to talk the chief into building a giant tomato greenhouse to use the heat from a large HRSG, all because Enron wanted to build a cogen there. That was one of the better ideas. Another involved reversing 40 miles of gas pipeline that was actually going to carry 60% natgas and 40% N2 to another new cogen and food processing plant somewhere in SE Colorado. Fortunately neither made it make off the proposal board. The gas wells there produce a lot of N2 for some reason. But then again, some farther to the south produce a lot of He2. ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... If solar ever gets to really going strong, power might become more expensive at night. I need a break. ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... Fischstabchen, I know what pumped storage is. You obviously missed the point of what I posted. ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... If nobody else, I appreciated hearing about the gravity storage rock. Definitely thinking outside the box and it just might come in handy. That's exactly the kind of thinking we need, even if it never actually flies. BTW, I forgot that the UAE just got their reactor going. Not that they need it yet, but they will be ready if they do. Always best not to get behind the 8 ball. ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... Pulling rail cars up a hill is another energy storage idea. https://aresnorthamerica.com/ I doubt it will scale to the size range covered by pumped hydro. ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... Anywhere you can store potential. Any truth to the Swiss giant clockspring? ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... Yet many times I have seen loaded coal trains traversing town using full dynamic brakes, after climbing a 7200 foot hill to a level a little less than 6000 feet. The problem is the towns in the middle. ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... These two paragraphs I thought were interesting. " \The city's$54 million net revenue estimate was included in a voluntary notice filed Monday with the Municipal Securities Rulemaking Board. The disclosure did provide for a considerable deviation from that estimate, however, suggesting the final revenue total could reach as high as $104 million but also drop all the way to negative$16 million depending on market developments.

"There is already movement to begin repricing some aspects of the market, and ERCOT has begun significantly short-paying invoices owned to Austin Energy because of cash-flow issues caused by payment defaults by other parties in their payments owed to ERCOT," the report read."

Imagine selling something like cotton or corn onto the market and then Chicago coming back and telling you they could give only this much money or even worse, tell you you owe them money.

This is in addition to early on when the Governor locked in prices to $9,000 per MWH and declared transaction already settled to be settled at$9,000 even though the market never settled at that price point. I would be pretty mad if I was Brazos , the utility that declared bankruptcy, or a wholesaler and had to pay post-settlement adjust markups.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Sounds like a totally F'ed up system... time to change and join the 21 century.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

dik,

It is a 21st century system that relies on the market to fix any issues. The cap was $3,000 and then 5,000, and$6,000 and so on. It kept being raised to no one wanting to build peaker generation with such a low return. In other regions, like CAISO, facilities are paid simply for being capacity. You usually are comfortable with a capacity margin around 9% and California is flying by 13%+. There are plants being built there which may not or just barely run. The cap was put in place because of market power manipulation by Enron and it was being relaxed to try to incentivise Independent Power Producers to build plants. I am not defending the system but that is the system here in ERCOT. The garbage with prices being changed and such is just fallout of the market failing due to systemic problems with the natural gas system. Without systematic failure, the prices would never have stayed as high as they were for an extended amounts of time.

Edit: I should have included that the market was being set by the PUC.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Life threatening issues should not rely on the market...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

#### Quote:

Imagine selling something like cotton or corn onto the market and then Chicago coming back and telling you they could give only this much money or even worse, tell you you owe them money.
The Fruit Growers Association in BC.
I think that there is precedent.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Both Chicago Mercantile and NYSE have several levels of price change circuit breakers set each day.
The largest is 20% price cap for the day.
Nowhere near ERCOT's 10,000% price change.
Why are these guys not in prison yet?
Raising prices during declared emergencies is plainly illegal.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

1503-44,

It isn't illegal. The PUC abandoned the market and just flat set prices at the max to spur every generator to come online. All without thinking of the groups that buy power. Prices on the first day were around $1,200 per MWH. The PUC felt that if there was load shed happening that market forces weren't incentivising generation to come online even though$1,200 is around 40 times the normal market rate. They then set the price to the max due to the belief it should be maxed out if there is shed load.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/texas-power-regulator...

Order to set past and present prices to max by the PUC to ERCOT.

https://www.puc.texas.gov/51617WinterERCOTOrder.pd...

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I think the legal questions are not fully resolved. There are no courts decisions yet.
I know of PUC's actions. If they knew anything about their market, they would have realised their decisions were in error.

The market did not fail because of gas supply problems. There is no way that a 300% rise in gas prices should result in 10,000% increase in electricity.
The market did not fail because of electrical supply problems. That resulted in grid blackouts, as designed.
The market failed because supply of electricity could not be made to meet demand AT ANY PRICE.
When supply and demand cannot be balanced by price, any market is effectively destroyed. This one went ballistic, totally out of control. PUC fueled the boosters.
The market failed from lack of appropriate controls, most certainly while under declared emergency.
The price of Bitcoin always balances supply with demand, because supply and demand can always balance the price of Bitcoin. But this ain't bitcoin. The problem is that PUC thought it was.
That's it, plain and simple...IMO.

Aside from gas fields freezing, some downed power lines and some generators that need winterizing, this has little to with any kind of engineering failure, as everything seems to have operated as designed. The only engineering failure as such, might be insufficient design envelopes, yet some argue that they are sufficient, since extending them are too expensive to be practical and cost effective. So far its mostly a mission failure only.

Does anyone doubt these simple market principles? I think it is pretty much Economics 101, but I'd like to hear any contrary opinions.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I have tried to figure out how ERCOTS rules are configured but it is hard to get a clear picture.
Some seems to be the same as the ones we use her.

But this difference in cost for power during the blackout between the market and the costumers can be because the power providers that could not deliver have to pay ERCOT for power bought on the market for them.
But if the power provider has costumers with fixed prices then they can't charge them with this extra high power prices.
The only one they can charge to get the money back is the ones that don't have a fixed price.

But here it is different, when I pay spot price I pay the markets spot price not some made up spot price that the power providers coms up with.
And in our system there is never a good idea for power providers not to deliver what he has sold to the grid (consumers) because the only thing that will happen is that he is in debt to "ERCOT" with the same amount of power and have to deliver it later without extra cost, its just plus or minus on the balancing sheet.
If "ERCOT" have to buy from someone else to fix the problem then the bill goes to the PP with extra cost, for fixing it, but this is not market spot price and can't be sent down the line to the consumer.

Here using the pre bought power reserv never influences the market price either since it is bought and payed for after market closing.

So I am not shore what is lacking here or where there is a glitch in the system, something is missing.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Maybe you are not sure, because there was no electrical problem, The grid remained balanced, because demand was restricted by enforced blackouts. Setting a higher price did not bring on more gen capacity, like it was theoretically supposed to do. We know that because blackouts persisted at extreme price. The grid was only saved by enforced blackouts, not by high prices or more electricity being brought online.

So what was the benefit of the high prices, other than lining pockets of those that were already injecting into the grid? No more generators showed up at that party.

How would the Swedish electricity market respond when enough power cannot be provided to meet demand? <assuming interconnections at borders are closed off, I.e. supply is finite, demand is effectively infinite.>

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

#### Quote:

So I am not sure what is lacking here or where there is a glitch in the system, something is missing.
This is Texas.
Fiercely independent.
Fiercely de regulated/self regulated.
Fiercely free enterprise.
And the rich get richer.
De regulation of a public utility is alwayss preceded by an expensive public relations campaign tio convince consumers that de regulation will save them money.
Then the rates go up.
And the rich get richer.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

The European grid is not immune to upsets that could create edge cases for the market.

#### Quote (orf.at)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_European_blacko...

How the European power markets would respond to an extended period of supply constraint that required shedding load has never been (and hopefully never will be) tested. In the above events the utility response was appropriate and the resulting outage period was in one case limited to a few localities, in the other the outage was widespread, but fairly short.

There are other examples - it seems when the lesson is painful enough it gets remembered. It is as true in Europe as it is in the US.

Fred

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Waross,

Most of the people in the U.S. live in deregulated regions. People here want to make it about being deregulated when it is the most common arrangement and it isn't a Texas thing.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

#### Quote (1503-44)

The market failed because supply of electricity could not be made to meet demand AT ANY PRICE.
Exactly. The system was broken in many ways. Ultimately this is as much a failure of the regulation.

When the bulk of power users pay a fixed rate for their power consumption, intra day changes only affect producers and the few users that do pay a sliding rate. Having caps at a more reasonable level would be more equitable. Big consumers like industry 'should' be incentivized to be on variable rate. This might already be the case in Texas, I don't know...

In my state the main coal power plant has recently announced that it is shutting down earlier than expected (still 7 years away). The main reason is that power prices have crashed due to wind and solar. Dealing with dispersed and variable renewable electricity generation is a challenge many countries are and increasingly will be facing. It is an engineering, economic and regulatory challenge. Texas is how not to do it.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Human909,

You do realize there were rolling blackouts in Oklahoma and Louisiana for the same reasons as in Texas.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Market doesn't really work when after something like this most of your customers don't exist anymore and you are extremely unlikely to realise any of the peak money that you are entitled to.

It seems that ERCOTS can just shrug its shoulders and say they didn't pay us so we are not going to pay you.

Must admit I can see the reason why a substantial number of domestic Texans are going off grid. If your norm is power cuts which last longer than 3 hours and days of no power you have to do something. So the residential market will have shrunk again. They don't actually see much benefit residentially for Texas cheap energy its 8% less than average compared to the rest of the USA. Unlike the commercial users where its 35% cheaper. Which stinks to me that the little people are getting screwed anyway.

One person in the solar groups has been told because there are only 4 houses left on the radial that they won't be fixed for nearly 3 weeks. The other 20 or so are all now off grid with power. But they have been told it will be 5 months before the paper work will be approved if they installed solar tomorrow. And it will be a staggering 35k USD for a 10 kW system with crappy microinverters and no battery.

Even in ex soviet countries we do get power cuts mainly due to things failing but just checked we haven't had longer than 9 hours in 5 years.

BTW I think central Europe there will be a major crash in the not so distant future as well. Which will cause major political issues because certain countries will cut all the inter connects and look after themselves unless it originates in their back yard. This is a western world issue not just USA or Texas.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Allstair,

I don't know what you expect to get for 35k. Batteries are extremely expensive as backup power. A 90kwh bank will cost you 15-20k. You could buy a small generator for 1/30 the cost of a battery bank.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

My 8.5 kW inverter plus 9.61 kWp of panels cost 13k USD including all the paperwork and installation and was turned on when they left the site.

My second inverter which will going in this year 8.5 kW and 40 panels 12.8 kWp is going to cost 7k USD but its going to be a DIY installation.

My battery is in the same range of price but its LiFe4Po good for 25 years and 95% discharge instead of the wet cell banks of requiring only 50% discharge and replace the cells every 5 years.

Anyway the 35k was without battery it was 10 kWp of panels with enphase IRQ7+ and monitoring system plus roof racking and rapid shut down.

There is an organised lobbied set of regulations to make solar as expensive as possible to the small people. There is money to be made but very little of it is allowed to be made by the end user.

And they are rolling out regs so that your house will be condemned for unfit for human habitation if you go off grid. But the work round for that is have the fridge connected to the grid and run everything else off grid. But then they apply minimum billing and increase the connection fee. So you end up paying 1200 USD a year anyway to run just a fridge.

I might add the hardware I use is pretty much the same price as in the USA. Its the installation cost and approval which nearly triples the price.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

#### Quote (1503-44)

How would the Swedish electricity market respond when enough power cannot be provided to meet demand? <assuming interconnections at borders are closed off, I.e. supply is finite, demand is effectively infinite.>

Svenska kraftnät provides a fixed remuneration for the resources in accordance with the agreement entered into.
Upon activation, variable compensation is paid.
The costs for power reserves are paid through an additional fee on the consumption of companies responsible for the balance, excluding network losses in networks subject to concession.

The additional fee is charged weekdays between 06 - 22 during the period 16 November - 15 March.
The additional fee is charged to finance Svenska kraftnät's procurement and management of the power reserve.

How does it work when the power reserve is activated in the regulating power market?
To avoid power shortages in the electrical system, the power reserve can be activated for the power balance.
Activation and deactivation of bids takes place by Svenska kraftnät calling the contact specified by the plant owner.
It can be, for example, a balance manager or an operations center.

The offer can be activated and deactivated by Svenska kraftnät during the entire delivery hour.
The management is based on the guidelines that the Nordic system operators transmission network companies have jointly developed:
"Guidelines for implementation of transitional peak load arrangements"

The power reserve is called up only after all commercial bids have been accepted.
Power reserve and the day before market
The power reserve is put into Nord Pool by Svenska kraftnät and it is only called off if there is a risk of shortening.

Today, only Fingrid in Finland and Svenska kraftnät in Sweden procure power reserves for cold winters in the Nordic countries.

How is the production part of the power reserve priced on the day before the market?
When activating the power reserve at Nord Pool, the power reserve price is set at the ceiling price at Nord Pool, which is 3000 Euro / MWh.

Best Regard A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Its not actually that much different apart from the amount of the power cap being half as much.

The only country in Europe that I know that has a system setup for selective load shedding down to system at consumer level is Germany which is why I can see something similar happening in central Europe.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I am not shore if we are taking about the same thing here.

#### Quote (Alistair)

System setup for selective load shedding down to system at consumer level.

The so-called power reserve is created by entering into agreements with players in the electricity market.

On the one hand, we can enter into agreements with electricity producers who have reserve power plants.
Then the agreement is about the electricity producer to contribute with additional electricity production.

On the one hand, we can enter into agreements with large electricity users and electricity trading companies, but then it is instead a matter of them reducing their electricity consumption.

The power reserve must be available between 16 November and 15 March, ie during the coldest season.

If above fails the same way as in Texas, there is a system for rolling blackouts (shedding) too.
It have never happened yet.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

The system they have in Germany is that they can directly shed power from consumer systems selectively. I think they can also power stuff up as well. There are pots scrap iron in arc smelters on standby to soak up power if required. They cycle the production pots to keep everything hot soaked so no cracking. But as one comes empty its loaded up on standby and then left while another one goes prime production. Sites can loose high power systems but the rest of it can stay on. If there is things that would break then they go to reduced power mode or stay on. Building thermostats get reduced or air con turned off.

Robot production lines finish the job up to a point then stop etc.

They can also trigger hospital/airport backup generators so they are ready if a cut does occur. It generates a bigger window to get things fired up producing power and can quickly get rid of load in seconds if required.

They got absolutely hammered a couple of times with frequency drop when all inverters went off line at 49.8 HZ so they put through that retrospective change that they had to continue producing down to 49.3hz and all the ripple recovery stuff kicks in at 49.5hz or something like that. I think they still go off line at 50.2 though.

It was years ago it was explained to me and I only really understood it when I put my own solar in and was looking at the ripple receiver functions for my inverter.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

In addition to all the above, it is feasible to develop and implement smarter meters and load centers that will runback demand of individual households based on real time economic inputs from the ISO, and in extreme events,runback demand during supply disruptions. Prioritizing household demands such that high priority, low demand loads never suffer a "blackout" such as overhead lights, alarms , and furnace fans. Lowest priorites are assigned to high load items such as dryers, ovens, EV rechargers, etc. Finally, the EV batteries can be used to power the high priority loads in the event of a blackout.

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I think the KNX system does all that stuff already dave for industry and its slowly going into new apartment blocks but no requirement for houses.

To add all the solar inverters have reactive power control as well and they can tell them to go to 0.8 lagging through to 0.8 leading again all from the central control room. They can also trigger them to release the battery to supply the grid at max discharge which is completely illegal and impossible to do without the control room releasing it.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

We do a lot of saving power stuff at the factory.
I reprogramed the cooling pumps so they stop when the cooling isn't needed and starts when it is necessary.
But this has nothing to do with the power grid.
We just do not want to pay for power if we do not have to

I think one difference is that here
According to the Electricity Act, an electricity supplier is obliged to deliver as much electricity as its customers consume.

And all power companies have a very good picture of how every costumers power consumption looks.
I can go back years and see the difference buy month, I guess the power company actually can se it by the hour.

Since we have much hydro power, that is what is used to balance the wind power and the solar energi and the high peaks.
It is mostly the hydro companies that build new wind power stations and offers solar cell solutions.
They have the means to balance it and uphold the Electricity Act.
For a company that only have wind power production this can be difficult, what they could do is have less costumers and sell the extra on the market, or make deals with another power provider that can garanti the balancing when needed.

If an effect shutdown (rolling blackouts) should be necessary.
This is decided locally in each region together with the transmission company how to proceed with premade planes.
The hospital and the district heating plant will probably be excluded.
The first thing that comes of line is the industries, if they are dissatisfied not our problem, they can get their own backup power if necessary.
15 minutes heads up an then we cut the power.
Households are switched on and off at intervals based on how long the indoor temperature can be kept above 0 degrees.
Let say 3 hours without power then another area becomes without electricity for 3 hours while the first area gets the power back and so on until the problem is resolved.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Wind energy and solar providers here don't need to worry about balancing the grid. And that is part of the problem. They are provided tax breaks for installing a non-stable resource, and a place to sell it, with no need to balance that resource. On the other hand, ERCOT is required to balance that without the ability to make requirements, only cost for what they will pay. The assumption is the grid market is perfect and the price will make an incentive to bring more conventional generation when required.

The other side is the energy provider is only out to make money, so will do the least to get the best cost for the energy. Thus, freeze proofing is a cost that no one thought was needed.

On the third, the gas supply was assumed to be available for gas generation, and no fuel storage would be required. Just in time delivery works most of the time, and no inventory lowers the cost of fuel.

Although we have seen many times where just in time delivery, in other industries, has caused problems when deliveries can't be made on time, we continue to go that route in the electric industry, with depending on gas to always be there.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

De-regulation campaigns always promise better service and lower prices for consumers.
And the checks is the mail.
And the rich get richer.

There is more than one way that a free market may function.
Prices may be bid and set ahead of time.
Base loads producers may be required to operate at 80% capacity.
That would guarantee spinning reserves.
When the grid demanded that lest 20% the price would be greater but not unreasonable.
That is, a system based on the interests of of the consumers, not the profits of the producers.
What happens when a producer is unable to supply the contracted power?
Penalties; Not enough to bankrupt but enough to make winterization cost effective.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Not much chicken makes it to the dinner table when the fox is running the henhouse.
When will we ever learn? When will we ...

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Waross,

You are grossly over simplifying things with your statements that deregulation is bad. There are a lot of expensive to run generators that only exist in regulated regions. A deregulated market shifts the risk associated with changing fuel prices or the emergence of "better" generation to investors from the public. There are more than a few nuclear power plants that are operating in regulated regions when in a unregulated region they would be competing with wind, solar, and natural gas in the market, all of which can often generate at half the cost of nuclear. Most in this thread want green generation but that won't happen quickly if inexpensive wind and solar isn't allowed to squeeze the other generators out in the market.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I don't think it is a question so much as regulation vs deregulation, but more of system design and control.
One thing I know for certain, is my pipelines wouldn't work very well, if anyone was allowed to build any kind of pump station wherever they pleased, leaving me to try to manage pressure and flow to meet the demands at the various tanks, terminals and connections by letting speculators set the price of pressure at the pump stations, other speculators setting the price of fuel, with the weather randomly throwing in monkey wrenches anywhere it chooses. That would be pretty much like how deregulation as practiced in TX today interferes with running a super critical and very highly complex system. The known variables are controlled by mother nature, or are entirely random, and there are more than enough unknowns already without trying to mix in as many more random variables as you possibly can. That's control by Brownian motion at best, but more likely that there is nobody behind the curtain at all. Meanwhile any opportunistic anteater digging the termite nest easily picks off all the little buggers that come running out wondering what the heck is going on.

Fisch,
Step back a second and look at what you actually wrote. Either you made a typo somewhere, or the snake is eating its tail.
TX has an unregulated/deregulated market yet it is that very market that is allowing green power to squeeze out gas/oil/nukes.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

As I understand it many in Tx use gas for house heating, is there a gas market?
And if,
Is it separate from the electrical market place?

Best Regards A

throwing in monkey wrenches, anteater digging the termite nest easily picks off all the little buggers

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Free market I do not know if there really is such a thing as a free market.
The EU is a free market, but before you can sell anything, it must meet all requirements and standards.
So how unregulated it is, it is still regulated in a sense.
If you have a free market for, say, for potatoes, then I as a consumer have the choice not to buy potatoes if the price is to high.
But when it comes to gas or electricity, that choice disappears more or less.
If a market is to function as a free, unregulated market, there must be many producers and consumers must have a choice.
But without requirements and standards for producers, a free market for gas and electricity will not work because consumers cannot choose not to buy when prices are to high.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Historically here, electrical power generation and distribution has been handled through Crown corporations. The distribution part of it is partially privatised now, and it remains to be seen whether privatising it as opposed to leaving it fully as a Crown corporation is a good long-term move. Ontario Power Generation remains a Crown corporation.

I don't know if anything equivalent to the structure of a Crown corporation exists in the USA.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I guess that I am mistakenly comparing privatization of Crown corporations with deregulation.
We didn't hear about deregulation before privatization.
This has happened in a few provinces.
The promise has been lower prices for the consumer.
The reality has been higher prices for the consumer.
I expect that the entrepreneurs and politicians pushing for privatization are first in line to buy up the privatized Crown assets.
And the rich get richer.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

#### Quote (waross)

We didn't hear about deregulation before privatization.
This has happened in a few provinces.
The promise has been lower prices for the consumer
When it comes to other state owned things much have been sold out like railroad, nothing got better trains don't come and go on time due to bad maintenance, it's difficult to buy tickets havening to go between different companies.

Here the state still owns the mayor power providers and many county's also own power company's.
Built and payed for with tax money, but then the the profits made helps keeping the taxes down.
They still sell and buy on the market place.
But here there is many rules to abide by.

Best Regards A

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

#### Quote (You are grossly over simplifying things with your statements that deregulation is bad.)

Where life safety issues are at stake, deregulation is bad. Case in point, people freezing to death in the recent Texas debacle, the Boeing 737 Max and the over half a million deaths due to the Coronavirus. People freezing to death in a civilised country because of a failure of infrastructure, is beyond the pale.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

The gas and electric markets are separate, actually very separate. Here is the scarey bit. Natural gas producers and gas spot markets are not regulated.
Local distribution companies are regulated by the Public Utility Commissions, or other some such agency in each of the 50 states.

No government agency is charged with the direct oversight of natural gas producers day to day business activities. Production and marketing companies must operate legally; i.e. producers must obtain the authorization and permitting before beginning to drill, particularly on federally-owned land, however natural gas prices are determined by market forces. A market that is not regulated by the government.
NYMEX operates a futures exchange, thus futures trading is governed by their trading rules.
https://www.nasdaq.com/market-activity/commodities...

Yes, upsetting the termite nest, otherwise known as the "Mideast Peace Strategy".

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

dik,

You are conflated unregulated markets with no regulations. That isn't the case at all. An unregulated market is merely an open market where power is bought and sold. Regulated markets are where power producers get fixed rates of return.

These rolling blackout did happen in regulated regions as well.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

#### Quote (These rolling blackout did happen in regulated regions as well.)

and the fatalities, too?

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Dik,

Yes, there were fatalities in those regions as well.

Why does feel like you are conflating several issues to obscure the fact that you aren't familiar with a lot of items in this thread? Deregulation has its pros and cons but I am not even sure you know what deregulation even is.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/
deregulation
noun [ U ] ECONOMICS, POLITICS
UK /ˌdiːreɡjəˈleɪʃən/ US
the process of removing government controls or rules from a business or other activity.

https://www.dictionary.com/
deregulation
[ dee-reg-yuh-ley-shuhn ]SHOW IPA

noun
the act or process of removing legislative controls or restrictions from an industry, commodity, etc.:

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Redsneak,

You don't have to go this route. You know well enough that industry definitions are not going to be defined in a dictionary.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I am to old, and my experience tells me, that assumptions is the mother of all fuckups.

Misunderstandings of words is one of them, or people having different perception of what they mean.

I have had production technicians who believes that commissioning is the same thing as producing .
I guess you understand what the result of that was.

You would not call a relay a contactor or a light curtain a light barrier.

It is no criticism of you.

But the discussion becomes meaningless if the words do not mean the same thing to everyone who uses them.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Don't argue about definitions. Ya'll know what happened. And I have not seen one publication, or any shread if evidence that even implies one iota that REGULATION caused this mess. That throws the spotlight on deregulation. Now we know what it is.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

1503-44.

You are conflating the unregulated electrical markets with natural gas security. They are two seperate things and why you saw blackouts in Oklahoma and Louisiana, which have regulated electrical markets.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

"Of the around 70 deaths attributed to the snow, ice and frigid temperatures nationwide, more than a dozen were people who perished in homes that had lost their heat, and most of those were in Texas. They include an 11-year-old boy who died in his bed in Conroe, near Houston, and two older men found dead in their homes in the small West Texas town of Buffalo Gap in Taylor County." Texas is #1...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Dik,

I don't understand what you are saying has to do with unregulated electrical markets. Most people in the U.S. live in unregulated markets. It is not something that can't be made to work.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Please see post 14 Mar 21 09:47

"Electricity Market" is the commercial trading aspect.
The grid suffered blackouts, but, rightly, or wrongly, functioned as designed.
If that is to function better, design standards will have to be enacted and enforced. Some apparently call that part "regulated", as gas pipelines are under CFR TITLE 49 Parts 192, 194, et al.

The TEXAS "electric market" is the only thing that truely failed and it went ballistic.
Other regional markets did not respond to blackouts with a 10,000% price increase.
Are we supposed to expect that 10,000% price increase every time demand exceeds supply?
If not, apparently the electrical market needs to be regulated, or better regulated.
10,000% price increases are not acceptable.

PIPELINE DESIGN must conform to provisions of
TITLE 49 CFR Subchapter D - PIPELINE SAFETY, specifically,
PART 192 - TRANSPORTATION OF NATURAL AND OTHER GAS BY PIPELINE:
MINIMUM FEDERAL SAFETY STANDARDS (§§ 192.1 - 192.1015)
PART 193 - LIQUEFIED NATURAL GAS FACILITIES: FEDERAL SAFETY STANDARDS (§§ 193.2001 - 193.2917)
PART 194 - RESPONSE PLANS FOR ONSHORE OIL PIPELINES (§§ 194.1 - 194.121)
PART 195 - TRANSPORTATION OF HAZARDOUS LIQUIDS BY PIPELINE (§§ 195.0 - 195.591)
PART 196 - PROTECTION OF UNDERGROUND PIPELINES FROM EXCAVATION ACTIVITY (§§ 196.1 - 196.211)
PART 199 - DRUG AND ALCOHOL TESTING (§§ 199.1 - 199.245)

Getting back to "regulation" of Grid Design issues, please tell me which CFR applies to design of Electrical Systems, Grids and Generation Facilities?
Here are the list of CFRs.

Title 1 - General Provisions
Title 2 - Grants and Agreements
Title 3 - The President
Title 4 - Accounts
Title 6 - Domestic Security
Title 7 - Agriculture
Title 8 - Aliens and Nationality
Title 9 - Animals and Animal Products
Title 10 - Energy
Title 11 - Federal Elections
Title 12 - Banks and Banking
Title 13 - Business Credit and Assistance
Title 14 - Aeronautics and Space
Title 15 - Commerce and Foreign Trade
Title 16 - Commercial Practices
Title 17 - Commodity and Securities Exchanges
Title 18 - Conservation of Power and Water Resources
Title 19 - Customs Duties
Title 20 - Employees' Benefits
Title 21 - Food and Drugs
Title 22 - Foreign Relations
Title 23 - Highways
Title 24 - Housing and Urban Development
Title 25 - Indians
Title 26 - Internal Revenue
Title 27 - Alcohol, Tobacco Products and Firearms
Title 29 - Labor
Title 30 - Mineral Resources
Title 31 - Money and Finance: Treasury
Title 32 - National Defense
Title 33 - Navigation and Navigable Waters
Title 34 - Education
Title 36 - Parks, Forests, and Public Property
Title 38 - Pensions, Bonuses, and Veterans' Relief
Title 39 - Postal Service
Title 40 - Protection of Environment
Title 41 - Public Contracts and Property Management
Title 42 - Public Health
Title 43 - Public Lands: Interior
Title 44 - Emergency Management and Assistance
Title 45 - Public Welfare
Title 46 - Shipping
Title 47 - Telecommunication
Title 48 - Federal Acquisition Regulations System
Title 49 - Transportation
Title 50 - Wildlife and Fisheries

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

The answer, - at least the FERC part is
TITLE 18—Conservation of Power and Water Resources, CHAPTER I—FEDERAL ENERGY REGULATORY COMMISSION, DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY https://www.ferc.gov/enforcement-legal/legal/feder....

It is not clear if this is helpful.
OSHA Regulations 29 CFR 1910.269 - Electric power generation, transmission, and distribution.
Appendix G to § 1910.269-Reference Documents includes a list of relevant IEEE documents, but does not clearly indicate if they are included by reference.

H.R.5146 - Power plant and Industrial Fuel Use Act from 11/09/1978 does seem relevant as it allows the Secretary of Energy to require power plants and large boilers to have dual fuel capability.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

If TP is $9000 I will make a bidet or research and observe any of the sanitary practices that preceded its use. This will definately be a case of elastic norms as opposed to inelastic demand. It's alright if you don't come over for dinner ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... Why I persist in taking the actual, physical newspaper :) The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... LittleInch, What makes you think that spinning and non=spinning reserves aren't compensated? What makes you think that RRCOT doesn't have adequate reserve margin? http://www.ercot.com/news/releases/show/219347 ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... Maybe because of this. Estimate was for this winter’s electrical load of about 67,000 megawatts. But the shadow estimates published by ERCOT suggested about 72,000 megawatts of peak demand. ERCOT has the ability to supply electrical capacity of about 80,000 megawatts. ERCOT runs “light” in terms of electric system reserve capacity with reserves typically about 8%. This compares with other US grids where targeted reserve margins are about 15 % https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Whos-To... https://scontent-dfw5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr/c... Best Regard A “Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“ Albert Einstein ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... Rednake, You are circling around the same issue over and over and trying to make it about the electrical grid. It was a natural gas problem. The load wasn't even at summer peak levels, which is what your capacity margin is benchmarked against in Texas. Even if there was more generation built, it wouldn't have changed anything because any additional generation would have been for natural gas because that is the most economic means generating electricity. That puts you at the same exact spot due to natural gas constraints. ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... The difference between Capacity vs Availability. ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... (OP) #### Quote (Fischstabchen) ...trying to make it about the electrical grid. It was a natural gas problem. If that's true, then there are really only TWO solutions, either figure out how one would store enough natural gas (or a suitable alternate fuel) close to generation facilities so that they can withstand a temporary outage from the pipeline system. Barring that, it would then fall to the second solution, which would be to do what they were told to do 10 years ago, winterize the gas supply system. John R. Baker, P.E. (ret) EX-Product 'Evangelist' Irvine, CA Siemens PLM: UG/NX Museum: The secret of life is not finding someone to live with It's finding someone you can't live without ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... So, Fischstabshen, perhaps it’s time for you to come clean - why the endless defense of an utter failure? What’s your vested stake in it? I’ll see your silver lining and raise you two black clouds. - Protection Operations ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... davidbeach, There is a gross mischaracterization of the situation by a number of people posting. First, it is the Texas Interconnect is not governed by NERC and FERC. I wish someone here would inform the TRE of this. Then, it is a deregulated electrical grid and those Texas cowboys just do whatever they feel like and have no regulations. Then it is ERCOT's fault even though they were providing winterizion training and released several warnings on the potential of this winter being cold and causing problems. Then it is deregulation even though most people in the U.S. live in deregulated regions and regulated regions in Oklahoma and Louisiana also had blackouts. Then it is people blaming deregulation and it is apparent by their post that they have no clue what it means to have a deregulated electrical system and how un-special it is for the ERCOT region to be deregulated or that all this is the result of deregulation even though the Pennsylvania region is huge on fracking and natural gas generation and is also deregulated and somehow manages to get through the winters. I am not defending the fact that winterization recommendations weren't carried out but it is ridiculous how much people not familiar with the situation feel compelled to not just comment on it but comment on it with blind certainty. You have in the renewable thread people commenting that Texas is not how to do renewables when aside from having 1 GW ramps in 2007-2008, ERCOT doesn't have the frequency regulation issues that you have in California and other regions with low inertia and high renewables. Then are comments about reliability. I have only lost power three times in the last 15 years in Houston (this cold snap and Hurricanes Ike and Harvey) and California shuts itself off during a slight breeze and the northeast messed things up so badly in 2003 that NERC was created. Yeah, the 2003 Northeast blackout was such a screw up the whole country fell under a book of regulation. What about the southwest blackout of 2011? Or people going weeks without power after Hurricane Sandy on the east coast? New York in 65 and 77? California and Enron in 2001? In addition, this was a natural gas supply issue and not even the grid itself. I believe that a lot of this is because Texas is a conservative state and is getting a lot of proxy hate. I am not even conservative but I have a hard time coming up with any other reason why so many would just dump on the state with such flimsy crap. I have been a poster on this board for 15 years and I have never seen so much flimsy crap. Where was this flimsy crap for California and the southwest in 2011? Where was this flimsy crap after a number of blackouts of the northeast? ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... NERC existed prior to 2003, since 1968 in fact. I trust that the rest of your statements are of the same caliber as the statement that NERC was created in 2003. Buh-bye. I’ll see your silver lining and raise you two black clouds. - Protection Operations ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... NERC was an industry council formed in 1968. It was even named the National Electric Reliability Council. The 2003 blackout happened and The Energy Act of 2005 was passed and mandated the creation of an Electric Reliability Organization (ERO). NERC applied to FERC to be the ERO and was granted the role. NERC than changed its name to the North American Electric Reliability Corporation to reflect the fact that they no longer were this small volunteer support group and now were a regulating organization that was able to mandate practices under the threat of millions of dollars in fines. NERC as we know it today only became what it is when it became an ERO in 2006. Saying NERC started in 1968 is like saying the investment firm Berkshire Hathaway started in the 1800s as a textile company and not when Warren Buffett started using the name for his investment firm. ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... You would have served your cause far better by simply saying "oops". Now you've doubled down on the lie that NERC was created following 2003. Created was your choice of words. As any judge would tell any jury, if a witness can be determined to be untruthful about one thing, it can be safely assumed that the witness was untruthful about other things as well. NERC was not created in 2003, nor as a result of 2003. Your choice of words. All else tarred by the same brush. I don't need to dig into each and every one of the rest of that, it's all equal to NERC being created in, as a result of, 2003. Could even have said that NERC took on a stronger role, but you opted to say created, and then when shown it was clearly false you deflected. Come clean, what's your vested interest? What ox of your's is being gored? I’ll see your silver lining and raise you two black clouds. - Protection Operations ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... Saying NERC started in 1968 is like saying the investment firm Berkshire Hathaway started in the 1800s as a textile company and not when Warren Buffett started using the name for his investment firm. One is a volunteer industry group and the other is a regulating body. It isn't expanding a role but a completely different organization. Enough so that they recognized this and changed their name. Edit: They aren't even the same NERC. It wasn't a name change but a completely new organization that was formed on March 28, 2006 and took on the acronym NERC. ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... Still haven’t said what ax you’re trying to grid... Stop diverting. I’ll see your silver lining and raise you two black clouds. - Protection Operations ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... davidbeach, You aren't interested in a real discussion if you are trying to keep score with when NERC was created and even you didn't have that right. There are gross misrepresentations of the grid under ERCOT and I have worked in MISO, SPP, and ERCOT and they all are planned, operated, and maintained almost the exact same way. ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... I was on to this not being an electrical failure since, #### Quote: 1503-44 (Petroleum)18 Feb 21 13:13 Gov Abbot of TX blames AOC & renewables. "Methinks the govna' doth protest too much." Im betting he'll walk home with that rooster and this originated at the gas fields with wells offline due to low price and other operators that didn't light up the well heaters in time to prevent freeze ups. Hydrates can start appearing at low 40s°F Since then, I have been trying to figure out how an electrical distribution system can arise, seemingly without central authority having control of deciding the location, capacity and generator type, then seemingly be operated solely by changing the price of electricity, while all other significant factors are essentially random variables in regard to system installed capacity, available capacity, electricity demand and corresponding day to day operating procedures. That is still a mystery to me. I would think it is total madness to do that with a simple A to B pipeline. The only failure I see ERCOT and the TX PUC responsible for is thinking that the price of electricity alone would be sufficient to essentially let a large, critical system self-design, maintain balance of supply and demand and keep it operating within all constraints, especially that of an apparently expected reliability of 99.75% or more. #### Quote: fischstabchen, MISO, SPP, and ERCOT, all are planned, operated, and maintained almost the exact same way. Could you please explain more about that topic? Is it as disorganised as I think? I hope not, but it does appear to me, literally, that the monkeys are at the drawing boards, pulling the levers and throwing the dice. How do they do it? That said, I can see some similarity in how pipelines systems at the national level manage to develope with minimal central oversight. The FERC attempts to keep unnecessary gas pipelines from being constructed and approves transportation tarriffs, but actually little else. If they determine that a pipeline project is necessary, serves the public's interests and does not unfairly restrict, or otherwise promotes fair competition, they will normally issue their approval and CFR regulations govern their design, construction and even operation to some extent. I see nothing comparable for electric systems, but I'm certainly no expert there. ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... Actually most utilities were managing fine, until the northeast blackout. After that regulating authorities were demanded. Then it was demanded that utilities must purchase power by any producer, opening the way for Non-Utility Generators (NUG's). Later congress got involved and decided wind and solar needed a seat and special treatment. Then congress wanted to regulate (more) the coal industry. So now we have the uneven and messey playing field we have today. No fuel or energy storage, and just in time fuel delivery (or just a few days late). So the coal industry is going to die, and we are shouting about how to replace it (in the dark, in Texas). This is what happens when government thinks they know best for us. ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... [quote Fischstabchen] You are circling around the same issue over and over and trying to make it about the electrical grid. It was a natural gas problem. quote] First of all I am NOT circling . I am trying my best to make an straight line, which is totally impossible since everybody else is jumping between different subjects like high prices, Governor faults, politics or converting to CO2 free power generation and so on. That was one reason why started a new thread about going green so this one could be about the Tx outages only. So despite my best effort the best I can manage is making S-shaped curves like an anaconda. Secondly, the only one who is making something here right now, is you. There was no mentioning about the electrical grid or making it about it, in my post above, you made that assumption. So please, do not read things between the lines that are not there. Best Regards A “Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“ Albert Einstein ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... #### Quote (cranky) Actually most utilities were managing fine, until the northeast blackout. ... This is what happens when government thinks they know best for us. Cranky, please stop confusing gov regulation of electric grids with a deregulated free electric market. It is the exact opposite. Unless you mean that gov deregulated the market and made it a free market. If they were managing just fine, how did they manage themselves into the NE Blackout? Pipelines must offer available transport capacity to all producers. Grids must transport electricity. This is what happens when design/op/maint is accomplished by a free market. ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... #### Quote: Where was this flimsy crap for California and the southwest in 2011? Where was this flimsy crap after a number of blackouts of the northeast? I think that the 'Flimsy crap" is sort of following the$9000 per KWHr charges that seem to be unique to Texas.
Maybe de-regulation is a broad term and maybe Texas de-regulation is a different flavour than other regions' de-regulation.
And, two distinct questions are being intermingled here;
Why did the grid fail?
Why were charges allowed to reach insane levels?
Do other regions have a realistic price cutoff price at which point rolling black-outs are initiated?

An interesting question:
How much capacity came on-line at prices between $100 per KWHr and$9000 per KWHR?
Was it worth the pain?

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I don't think it was an electrical failure, but much worse... it was a systemic failure.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

1503-44,

All the NERC standards that other regions follow also are followed by ERCOT. Each region and registered member has a slightly different way to meet those requirements but they are nearly all the same. NERC in my opinion killed good engineering to prevent bad engineering. I am not sure if that is a bad thing because utilities don't have the expertise anymore due to the industry neglecting to hire young people and now you have a whole wave of people retiring. Utilities often can't do certain things themselves anymore and outsource anything hard. I don't even think a utility is a place for a specialist because most projects just involve project managers overseeing contractors and consultants.

Redsnake,

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

#### Quote (Fischstabchen)

Now you did it again stop assuming things.
My comment was "Maybe because of this"
Everything else was comments from oilprice.com and ERCOT actually showing the opposite.
That it wasn't a capacity issue!

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

FERC has promised an investigation.

Everyone is dodging this. So then can ANY electrical engineer explain? I am beginning to think NOT. Is there any rationality to grid design and operation, or does some giant spider just come along, spin it and turn it over to the chimps. If there is no explanation, then ERCOT gets the blame by default.

------------
How an electrical distribution system can arise, seemingly without central authority having control of deciding the location, capacity and generator type, then seemingly be operated, all solely by changing the price of electricity, while all other significant factors are essentially random variables in regard to system installed capacity, available capacity, electricity demand and corresponding day to day operating procedures. That is still a mystery to me. I would think it is total madness to do that with a simple A to B pipeline.

OK, you don't have to write it yourself, just a link will do.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

#### Quote (How an electrical distribution system can arise, seemingly without central authority having control of deciding the location, capacity and generator type, then seemingly be operated, all solely by changing the price of electricity, while all other significant factors are essentially random variables in regard to system installed capacity, available capacity, electricity demand and corresponding day to day operating procedures. That is still a mystery to me. I would think it is total madness to do that with a simple A to B pipeline.)

That's why I said the failure was systemic...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Fischstabchen I have two questions for you.

When you get power outages do your power company compensate you for that?
And how many of this power generator company's that use natural gas as fuel own there own gas wells?

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I have to agree. Systemic failure by design, or rather lack thereof.

I hope to find answers to some of my management of grid design questions here,
https://www.e-education.psu.edu/ebf483/

#### Quote (www.ercot.com)

Electric Reliability Council of Texas
The Electric Reliability Council of Texas operates the electric grid and manages the deregulated market for 75 percent of the state

I think its clear why they do not say they "manage the grid".

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

(OP)
In light of what happened, the real irony in that description is the use of the term "Reliability"

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Redsnake,

I am not aware of any form of compensation. A co-op I worked for in another state had an agreement with the distribution co-ops to have only a certain amount of outage hours over a 3 year span. If the the hours were exceeded, there was a lot of pressure to make some type of an improvement.

None of the utilities I worked for were involved in owning gas production for their generation. A transmission and gas company I worked for did get involved got involved in a joint venture for upstream gas production but I believe that was more about trying to try to exceed the companies meager 4% regulated return with some type of outside investment than sourcing their own gas. They managed to lose money on it. The Calpine Natural Gas Company is a subsidiary of Calpine ,the gas and power generation company, and owns wells but I think that is the exception and not the rule. There are probably a lot of joint ventures but probably are more about making money on the gas boom than sourcing their own gas. Fracking wells don't last that long and crews are constantly moving to drill new wells. At least initially, a lot of big companies avoided the natural gas boom because of this hassle and it was made up of a lot of small players.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

...part of the reason for the systemic failure.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

US Interstate gas transmission pipelines have not been allowed to own their own gas since being deregulated in the early 80's. They only do transportation.

------------------------
TX Gas Production Cuts
------------------------

#### Quote (https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=46...)

Natural gas production in Texas fell almost 45% from 21.3 Bcf/d during the week ending February 13 to a daily low of 11.8 Bcf/d on Wednesday, February 17, according to estimates from IHS Markit. Temperatures in Texas averaged nearly 30 degrees Fahrenheit lower than normal during the week of February 14. The decline in natural gas production was mostly a result of freeze-offs, which occur when water and other liquids in the raw natural gas stream freeze at the wellhead or in natural gas gathering lines near production activities. Unlike the relatively winterized natural gas production infrastructure in northern areas of the country, natural gas production infrastructure, such as wellheads, gathering lines, and processing facilities, in Texas are more susceptible to the effects of extremely cold weather. After reaching a daily low on February 17, natural gas production in Texas began increasing as temperatures started to rise. Daily production reached an estimated 20.9 Bcf/d on February 24, only about 0.3 Bcf/d lower than the average in the week ending February 13.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

dik,

by that you mean?

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

#### Quote (Fischstabchen)

I am not aware of any form of compensation.

I meant for a household consumer.
Here if the outages is more then a predefined length, you get deduction on your bills, of course you do not pay the power since you didn't get any but also transmission cost , depending on if it was the transmission company or the power company that was at fault.

And I wonder how this Emergency Alert specifically the public Conservation Alert is issued?

Yellow graphic with black text show the ERCOT conservation alert.
At this level, ERCOT aims to raise public awareness about shrinking reserves and the need to actively conserve energy to prevent emergency conditions.

ERCOT - Emergency Alert Level 1
Level 1: The first EEA level is Conservation Needed.
ERCOT issues this alert when operating reserves drop below a target threshold.
This level puts providers on notice to take preliminary measures to curb demand before the situation worsens.

ERCOT - Emergency Alert Level 2
Level 2: If conditions worsen, ERCOT will next issue an EEA Level 2 – Conservation Critical.
At this level, providers are permitted to reduce their power load by interrupting supply to large commercial and industrial accounts.
The contracts these clients sign stipulate that such measures may be necessary in an emergency.

ERCOT - Emergency Alert Level 3
Level 3: If power supply declines further, ERCOT will then declare an EEA Level 3 – Rotating Outages in Progress, the final alert level.
At this level, ERCOT will require electricity providers throughout the state to begin introducing temporary outages at the local distribution level—also known as rolling brownouts or rotating outages.

https://magicvalley.coop/ercot/

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

1503-44

Here is something that was done just to get better control over the usage (measuring).

In September 2003, the state legislature and PUC ordered ERCOT to transition from a wholesale electric market with four large regions to a marketplace made up of more than 4,000 nodes throughout the state. This undertaking, called the Nodal Project, aims to improve the efficiency of the grid by having more specific information for different locations throughout the state.

https://stateimpact.npr.org/texas/tag/ercot/

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Always nice to know where the nodes are and what part of the grid they are in.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Yes, do you not like to play blind buck ?

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I never follow the masses, especially when I can see where they are going.
I expect you already knew that.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Yea I did
Just wasn't shore you knew what a blind bock was

Best Regards Anna

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Actually, de-regulation, was not an opening up of the electric markets. If you believe that, you should ride your unicorn somewhere else.

De-regulation, was nothing but a different type of regulation. Stupid thing like I am not allowed to give some specific information to some of my co-workers (like project timelines).

Electric grids are designed by Transmission planners who plan needed changes from electric node to electric node. Power plants are normally placed in locations to the electric grid, fuel, transportation, and land available. Transmission planners do have groups that trade information between companies. (I actually don't know why I am defending planners, they should be doing that themselves).

Plant operators, do have economic concerns in mind, and many are more concerned about the EPA then winterizing, so it should be easy to see what the government wants done first. And yes CIP is more of a concern then winterizing, because there are fines being leveled for CIP, but not for winterizing.
In fact, the concerns about wireless mouse, as a CIP concern is more of a concern than winterizing.

No one wants FERC because the results they come up with don't make since, and look more like the results of wac-a-mole, which is why everyone keeps there heads down. No one wants a big fine for something that is industry practice.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

EPA ??
CIP ??

#### Quote (cranky108)

I actually don't know why I am defending planners, they should be doing that themselves
It's okay and it's good for understanding better you than no one.
Maybe there isn't any around.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Thanks. No worries. I read all of the lessons in the link I posted.
The chimps do good work 97.5% of the time.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Environmental Protection Agency (US government Agency)
Critical Infrastructure Protection (NERC cyber security standards)

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Thanks stevenal
Couldn't help seeing that you have a Swedish last name, good for you

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Cranky108,

Information shared by the transmission owner and operator must be shared equally to all the players. Companies would game the system if some market participants had an advantage. I never found this to be a problem due to the fact that engineering is completely unrelated to the group that participates in the electrical markets.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

#### Quote (https://www.naturalgasintel.com/texas-retail-power...)

Texas Retail Power Provider Griddy Seeking Chapter 11, Says ERCOT Caused ‘Financial Devastation’
Griddy said ERCOT was responsible for the “financial devastation” stemming from the storm.

Griddy CEO Michael Fallquist said ERCOT “made a bad situation worse” by leaving the scarcity pricing in effect “long after firm load shed instructions had stopped. Our customers paid 300 times more than the normal price for electricity during this period.”

Texas legislators have unveiled a series of bills in recent days to correct the failures that caused February’s crisis. One bill would prohibit REPs such as Griddy from offering wholesale-indexed products to consumers.

The “most significant” bill proposed so far is one that would direct PUCT <Public Utility Commission of TX> to initiate a rulemaking for weatherizing electrical systems, according to analysts at ClearView Energy Partners LLC.

In a note to clients, the ClearView team indicated that legislative proposals requiring PUCT to retroactively reprice wholesale markets during the storm period are likely to be introduced over the coming days and weeks.

The wellhead freeze-offs “were exacerbated by power outages to production equipment as oil and gas infrastructure was not considered critical…by most electricity distribution companies,

“We estimate gas supply chain issues alone contributed to 10.3 GW of the 18 GW in outages at gas plants, led by wellhead freeze-offs.

In related news, Texas Gov. Greg Abbott said Tuesday he had accepted the resignation of PUCT’s Arthur D’Andrea, who was the only remaining commissioner still serving after the other commissioners resigned following the February crisis.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

#### Quote (The chimps do good work 97.5% of the time.)

They missed one... my dad had 3 ivory monkeys on a wood base... the fourth monkey was missing, he told me as a child was, "Do No Evil". Likely applicable in Texas.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Meaning that they should not have turned off the gas company's electricity?

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

(OP)
I heard somewhere where Griddy, the company responsible for most of those horror stories about people having their bank accounts wiped out by automatic payments covering their electric bills, has offered to refund people's payments IF they agree to not take them to court and sue for civil damages.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Smart move on their part. If Griddy were to lose in court, then legal fees and damages would apply. I think they know that they should not have sold contracts with that much exposure to just anybody that could manage to click through.

Yes, I know the usual "buyer beware" warning, but that's why we have lawyers.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Could someone please explain, "during the week of February 14" does it mean the week before Sunday the 14:e?
Strange expression

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

The week (usually from Sunday to Saturday, inclusive) that contained 14 Feb.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

(OP)
I don't think this item has been posted yet, and while it appears that the person responsible for this promise to Wall Street bankers, that they will be allowed to keep the profit they made off the people of Texas who suffered through the recent winter storm and the resulting blackouts, has lost his job, it's not clear from the article whether what he claimed will happen will now be reversed:

Some on Wall Street Profited off Texas Blackouts. In a Private Call, a Top Regulator Pledged He Would Try to Protect Their Windfall.

Public Utility Commission chairman Arthur D’Andrea apologized to investors last week for the “uncertainty” around its profits.

https://www.texasmonthly.com/news-politics/wall-st...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

"On Tuesday night, PUC chairman s Arthur o D’Andrea b, who was appointed chairman by Governor Greg Abbott less than two weeks ago, has resigned." Further says that there is an understanding that "gas price is set by the world market". Uhhh... Not that price Arthur.

Now this may just be the tip of the iceberg. A complete work-around to deregulation.
From 18 Feb, just saw it today. Pull back the curtains, and its a gentail, er, sorry, "gentailers".

#### Quote (http://www.energychoicematters.com/stories/2021021...)

The whole purpose of deregulation was to break them <apart>. For some reason they are now called gentailers (generators + retailers) and they have been allowed to purchase companies like Ambit, Stream, Gexa, Cirro, TriEagle, Green Mountain, and the list can go on," the CEO of the REP said in the communication to the PUC. The CEO of the REP further noted that various holding companies which own REPs have also formed or purchased brokers, as the CEO noted that the Commission prohibits a REP itself from being a broker

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

SAPO'd, comes to mind...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Doesn't it bother anyone that there is so much wrong here that no one is addressing? This unbridled capitalism has cost numerous lives.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

But that's the Texas way.

I’ll see your silver lining and raise you two black clouds. - Protection Operations

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

(OP)
Case in point, April 17, 2013 in West, Texas (look it up).

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

#### Quote (But that's the Texas way.)

If they are too stupid to realise that things are wrong, this choice should be taken from them. You don't let kids play with chainsaws.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

#### Quote (Case in point, April 17, 2013 in West, Texas (look it up).)

We had a worse tragedy at the turn of the last century in Halifax... again, same end result.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Dik,

if it was unbridled capitalism that was responsible for deaths, why did regulated regions have blackouts and fatalities? Can you also tell me what unbridled capitalism is?

JohnRBaker,

Do you know the result of the investigation into the fertilizer plant explosion you referenced?

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

#### Quote (ERCOT admits errors... of the software kind.)

The problem is systemic...

@Fisch... I'm not going to get into semantics... regulation being set up by the capitalists...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

North Dakota was paying attention.

#### Quote (https://www.naturalgasintel.com/north-dakota-split...)

Meanwhile, North Dakota lawmakers are weighing in on gas capture and electricity reliability, particularly in the oilfields. Proposed legislation is moving forward including state Senate Bill (SB) 2065 that deals with permitting and legal processes for developing storage for natural gas, propane, hydrogen, and natural gas liquids.

“They are looking for a solution to the situation Texas faced last month by using natural gas storage supplies that will be shifted from heating to electric generation,” Helms said. “That’s an important policy piece.”

State House Bill 1452 would establish a Clean Stable Energy Authority. In addition, SB 2014 proposes funding for studies on gas storage to enhance the state’s ability to develop a petrochemicals industry. The key is to have more storage to increase statewide reliability in the face of a super freeze like Texas experienced,

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Their climate necessitates that... parts of ND can have Texas weather for several months each year...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

(OP)
And some of those months are NOT always found in that section of the calendar generally associated with Winter

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

This bit is troublesome. “They are looking for a solution to the situation Texas faced last month by using natural gas storage supplies that will be shifted from heating to electric generation,” Helms said. “That’s an important policy piece.”

This pipeline is over $10B and several important EU gas grid companies have their future supply plans and big chips in the game. I dont think its going to blow over. Merkel just signaled it will become an issue. We can all thank Ted Cruz. The US will play into this stupidity long before they learn that it will do more damage to EU relations, actually benefitting Russian political goals far more than hindering them. But all of that is well known. The US leadership is not stupid and they know exactly what they want, so the collision course is set. The gas sales plum tree just looks too sweet. US gas exports are increasing quickly and US domestic gas prices are rising (or not falling with the warmer weather) in response. The US consumer is already starting to pay the price. ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... If its not completed there is a legal minefield over who pays for it and several company's who are deemed to big to go bust and national security entity's will be basically bankrupted over night. ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... And they'll still be getting Russian gas any way you look at it. I suggested in one of the petroleum forum websites that Ted Cruz could arrange a US Gov buy out of NS2 from the Russians and then they could just close it down. But then I would imagine some opportunistic friend of Ted would simply wrestle it from gov hands and start transporting RusGas through it anyway. ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... They would be more than happy with that. They don't care where the money comes from as long as it goes into their pockets. They already know that the gas will be a third of the price of what they can sell theirs for. As long as they can make the same profit by other means they will be happy enough. ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... Something is just wrong here. If the goal is to be carbon free, then why would you be building a gas pipeline? And if Russia wanted to turn it off, what choice would the EU have but to do what Russia wants? If I were in the EU I might want to play it both ways. Buy some Russia gas, and buy some US gas, or look for something different. ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... I think it's like to choose between three evils, nuclear power, coal or gas. And gas won. Russia has used that strategi before, trying to threaten to turn the gas of, mostly against earlier east states. I think EU and Germany thinks they have more muscles to withstand things like that, but we will see. It works both ways. BR A “Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“ Albert Einstein ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... You mean if they turn off the NS2 gas, it would be just like today? Through 50 years including the worst part of the Cold War, the USSR kept all gas and oil pipelines open. Never one shut valve. Never. That shut down story is American Ted Cruz' hocus pocus, A complete urban myth. Russia turned off Ukraine's gas, because Ukraine did not pay their bills. If anyone has evidence of any other time that happened, please let me see it. I will let the secret out of the bag. Russia has nuclear weapons. Why would they need to play politics with gas? They don't play politics with gas. Where is that evidence? Russia is the hood's petrol station. They sell gas and oil. Cheap. You let them do that and nobody gets hurt. Greenhouse gas? Yes, but burning it and removing the CO2 solves that problem. That's the EU solution. EU must legally reduce CO2. If the EU does not buy it, Russia will sell it to China, or worse, be forced to flare it off. What is the best option there? China burns it and lets the CO2 escape? That's your solution? Buy US gas at 2 to 3 times Russia's price. Depend on North Atlantic shipping routes for your gas supply? OMG, what if the USA wanted to play politics with their gas? They could tell the EU to stop going on holidays to Cuba, or make Sweden become a member of NATO. Then the EU might have to buy RusGas. EU could play politics on their own by simply deciding from whom to buy gas. Isn't free market competition a wonderful thing? If they do cut off the gas, fine, call Ted. EU has LNG gas import plants connected to the pipeline grid ready and waiting for anybody's gas. Guaranteeing a secure and reliable energy supply in future is all about maximising supply options today. All of them. ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... Maybe I wasn't ironic enough. I don't think it will bee a problemen buying gas from Russia. BR A “Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“ Albert Einstein ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... Its only a problem for Ted. You do not have to buy gas from either party. But at least you can, if you want to. Meanwhile, maximize your options. There is Russian vodka and Swedish vodka. I want a choice. ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... The nordstream 2 pipeline is just one more playing piece in the grand game of chess. Its completion and use will allow the EU to shut down essentially all coal plants and reduce the net CO2 emissions due to the lower CO2 emissions of gas fired combined cycle plants compared to the coal fired rankine cycle. There also is the looming power deficit related to the shutdown of the german and some french nukes. Using russian gas is cheaper than using US /Qatar LNG, but it shifts the profits to russia as opposed to helping finance US shale gas. There are also proposals to run add'l gas pipelines from the mideast to the EU thru the intermediary countries that are coincidentially the victims of turmoil, almost certainly deliberately fostered to exert influence to run those add'l pipelines. The noise you hear in the media is just fodder to confuse the masses; the families of the politicians that are involved in these grand energy decisions are laughing all the way to the crypto banks. "...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... Media noise? They have to sell something. ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... Not media noise. Media coverage of that is likely to be more silent than the inside of the underground gravity wave detector. I think Biden and Merkel will talk more about this over dinner at the upcoming NATO meeting than anything else. Neither of them will be smiling until the cameras get turned on. ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... (OP) The final costs of the February Texas power crisis are being tallied: 11 deaths, 1,400+ ED visits for carbon monoxide poisoning reported during Texas' winter power outage https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/public-healt... John R. Baker, P.E. (ret) EX-'Product Evangelist' Irvine, CA Siemens PLM: UG/NX Museum: The secret of life is not finding someone to live with It's finding someone you can't live without ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... The hubris of "We have winter in Texas too" and then they really got winter. Bill -------------------- Ohm's law Not just a good idea; It's the LAW! ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... John: seems like they have difficulty in counting down there? https://www.dallasnews.com/news/weather/2021/04/30... Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better? -Dik ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... (OP) The item I posted was specifically about carbon monoxide deaths, while your item covered a broader range of causes. But I'm sure that like everything, there's a certain leeway given for determining whether something was directly related to the weather or simply coincidental. After all, over a certain period of time, there's probably going to be people who, during the colder winter months, will die of carbon monoxide poisoning or even hypothermia whether the power gird failed or not. John R. Baker, P.E. (ret) EX-'Product Evangelist' Irvine, CA Siemens PLM: UG/NX Museum: The secret of life is not finding someone to live with It's finding someone you can't live without ### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... I am wondering if the human cost or the financial cost will be enough to push the issue of winterizing has value. A number of costs like this can be added to the human cost, Samsung Suffered$270 Million Loss Due To Power Outage In Texas.
NXP, Infineon plants hit by power outage in Texas storm
There was already a shortage, The Texas storms made it significantly worse.
Chip shortage forces Ford to build trucks without computers
The global chip shortage is going from bad to worse. Here's why you should care

For the oil refineries with excess capacity, shutting down depletes excess inventory, so you could argue the profit is just time shifted. The entire semiconductor fab sector is running at capacity , so the outage represents actual lost revenue. This also impacts the companies that ordered the chips not produced.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

There are only so many ways you can put lipstick on a pig...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

The widely recognised equation, Time=Money, holds that there is no such thing as time shifted revenue, certainly not in a time continuous process. Profits delayed are accompanied by a corresponding loss of principal x interest.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

What's you locals thoughts about the tax credit proposal to keep the nukes running?

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Is there any update on what happened to all those super high electricity bills?

Have they been cancelled or??

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Still ongoing from what I can tell.

They are in the position now that they are demanding payment from the cooperatives for what their consumers have used but then are refusing to pay the generation side of things what they are owed for what they produced. Some of the cooperatives are saying we will just cancel things so you don't owe us anything apart from our surplus production and we will deal with billing our own consumers at what ever rate we decide.

But apparently they are not having that they want every consumer to pay the rate and then when they get the money they will pay for production.

Loads of company's going bankrupt or chapter 11.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

is it happening 'all over' or only in Texas?

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Don't know, Stuff just appears in my news feed after this thread and looking at it.

99% of it is from Texas but that could just be the news feed algorithm. In some ways it looks a bigger mess than when it started with all the political bum covering and movements. What does seem obvious though is that they want the consumers to pay if they were contracted for it. And there are going to do there upmost to make sure nothing changes to the way they run it and regulate it. Apart from maybe extract cash out of the off grid and self powering consumers.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

FacEngEE,

Power factor correction by a synchronous condenser is usually only done if it needs to be high speed for transient stability or if a motor or generator is just sitting there unused. For power factor correction, it is extremely expensive in comparison to capacitor banks. Utilities don't like synchronous condensers even though they are cheaper than solid state FACTS devices because they aren't a single point of failure and don't have moving parts. Inside plants, they are used this way far more often than on the transmission system but that is just because of having motors that are tied to an idle or dead process.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Think that last post missed the intended forum.

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### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Hydrates in gas gathering pipelines are a good part of it..
What really happened.

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### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

whoa 1 week costing the same as 4.5 years for wholesale energy providers.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

The worst were some Griddy customers. They got 20 year bills.

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### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

One thing I was always told, read the contract. Even more so after I heard one computer game company had a statement in there contract that they would recieve your everlasting soul.

On the other hand, the customers should not have been sold such open ended contracts.

Let them fight it out in court, and the political system.

On the third hand, utilities are being pushed into DER's and that technology is not fully developed, or tested to the extent that they can be modeled correctly.
So I believe it is right that the utilities would be angry at the DER's that are not available when they are needed.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

how likely is it that the end consumer will get out of paying it?

I think in the UK the courts would very quickly null and void the contract but I wouldn't be surprised in the USA if it held them to it.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Yes, caveat emptor may rule in the US, difficult to say.

Most places have regulations and law precedence saying you can't expect an average consumer to be aware of the risk they are taking unless it is spelt out in big bright flashing letters and even then I don't think anyone would sign up to a contract where the potential impact was a 9000% increase or whatever it was.

But someone somewhere will end up paying as the generators produced electricity in line with their contracts at that hugely inflated rate and now need payment. It might take a while and a lot of court cases, but money will flow eventually. Mainly into the pockets of the lawyers.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

It's not a problem in many places... critical infrastructure is often government run, and not private.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

i don't reckon it will flow apart from into lawyers pockets

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

And in some places you can't tell the difference, like when the Utility Commission works for Wall Street.

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### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

cranky DERs ?

/A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

DER, distributed energy resources. Mainly consist of wind and solar, but could be other.

For the most part non-selectable on energy output. Take or pay arrangements forced on to utilities by regulators.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Okey thanks cranky for the clarification.
But it's a bit strange though all energi sources is distributed in one way or another.

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I know we discussed this thing with preparedness in one thread, not sure it was here, but anyways.

I got this phone call Wednesday and when I answered there was this AI voice telling me that they where going to cut the water off between Thursday 20 May 20.00 to Friday 21 May at 06.00, and that I should fill up some water bottles and that there would be a tank truck with water by the grocery store if I needed more.

I guess that is one reason, why we here where I live, isn't always so well prepared.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I guess if they can't see it coming, then you just gotta' force it on them. If they built their own, they wouldn't have to take or pay, they could just make, take and collect.

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### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

new(s)

"Texas Governor Greg Abbott’s office knew of looming natural gas shortages on February 10, days before a deep freeze plunged much of the state into blackouts, according to documents obtained by E&E News and reviewed by Ars.

Abbott’s office first learned of the likely shortfall in a phone call from then-chair of the Public Utility Commission of Texas DeAnne Walker. In the days leading up to the power outages that began on February 15, Walker and the governor’s office spoke 31 more times.

Walker also spoke with regulators, politicians, and utilities dozens of times about the gas curtailments that threatened the state’s electrical grid. The PUC chair’s diary for the days before the outage shows her schedule dominated by concerns over gas curtailments and the impact they would have on electricity generation. Before and during the disaster, she was on more than 100 phone calls with various agencies and utilities regarding gas shortages."

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Seems Nordstream 2 has been resolved. Well not resolved, just apart from blowing it up they realised it was going to be finished like it or not and Germany wasn't going to budge.

https://www.dw.com/en/nord-stream-2-us-to-waive-sa...

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Thanks for that post.

Thats good news for everyone except Ted Cruz and his sidekick Cornyn. It was obviously not worth souring relations with Germany just to please those guys. The gas consumers in the US and EU will both have advantage of free market prices for gas, which were rising in the US of late, sustained by purchases made for the export market and the EU retains its rights to decide its own energy security policy. For once, sanity has prevailed. It was a ridiculous move from the very beginning. Texas can't even handle their own energy problems, so they don't need to be holding the keys to Europe's. A bill to prohibit TX public entities from making renewable energy investments was just signed by Gov Abbott. A move which will leave them illy prepared for the future and inevitably dig into the people's pockets who will be paying federal taxes so all that renewable power can be built elsewhere.

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### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

They have other moves afoot currently according to the solar groups.

They want to be able to bill infrastructure to all electricity consumers including off grid. So if you are off grid you will need a meter what you make/use and then they will bill for the grid maint.

Grid tied they want everything produce to go through a separate meter into the grid and then another meter recording what you use. They also want the ability to kill the feed in if grid stability requires it so even if you can cover your own requirements you will have to buy off the grid anyway.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

With that logic, Texans will soon pay for the air they breath. Hopefully the CO2 content will still let them.

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### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

They are not the first to implement this model. And won't be the last.

Like it or not having a major percentage of your population opting out of infrastructure payments is a major problem especially if your only up to 1/3rd of your way through a capital plan.

But then again you should get something for what you pay and it shouldn't go into shareholders pocket's.

I am expecting something similar to come in in Europe in the next 15 years.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

They tried it in Spain. It was eliminated a couple of years ago. The "Sun Tax" solar panel licensing fees. Paying for something you don't use does not fit into the Spanish mindset. They will hardly go on vacation if they have to pay to park their car for a month without using it.

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### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

It will be another EU shafting so no choice in the matter

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Much of the public infrastructure billing debate revolves around who the question of actually owns the infrastructure. As we have been deregulating (or as I prefer to think of it - breaking monopolies) stateside, the argument could be made that the distribution infrastructure needs to be publicly owned and therefore costs shared by all for its maintenance. Currently, I have my choice of several companies each for power, natural gas, telephone, and cable, obviously am interested in paying as little as possible for each, yet need to cover the infrastructure through either taxes or some form of private billing capable of covering the cost no matter who I choose to pay this month.

The other interesting yet absurd discussion going on stateside currently is the push to monopolize internet services by making them a public utility. Comically enough, its popular among IT folks.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Cwb1 it's exactly the same problem this side of the pond.

Where I am you end up getting 3 bills for your electricity.

To be honest I feel that the grid should be publicly owned and maintained. It's not the sort of thing you want to run the risk of getting run into the ground through short term accountants bonuses drives.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

It kind of makes sense not having 20 companies all stringing the same stuff throughout the city as well. How many cell towers can you see from your office?

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### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

seems things are struggling again.

Have they lost capacity again?

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

They would really benefit from another power solution for there air-conditioning.

Wouldn't mind some air conditioning myself sometimes.
Right now the only option is keeping all windows, blinds and curtains closed and sealed, and then open all the doors and windows for a couple of hours in the evening so that there is wind drafts throughout the apartment, cooling it down.

There was a reportage about solar panels yesterday on TV.
HSB is Sweden's largest housing cooperative, they have started to build solar parks by selling shares to those who rent apartments in their housing stock.
I guess they get reduced electricity costs exactly how it is financially structured, I do not know.
At the same time, they are trying to increase biodiversity by sowing natural flowers and grass between the solar panels.
In areas with large areas of agricultural land, there is little biodiversity.
Only 1% of our energy production is solar right now.

/A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Yea they tried the solar farms here, and selling shares. The last one could not seem to sell all the shares, and went bankrupt.

No as a utility we did not buy it. I might have expected us to, but we did not.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Maybe the difference here is, that it is Sweden's larges housing cooperative and it is in line with Sweden's CO2 goals so every part of society and the government agencies are onboard, it might make it easier.

/A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

#### Quote (Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) 15 Jun 21 06:43)

seems one of the nukes went offline and total 9000 MW offline

article blocked (pay to view)

which plant Commanche or STP

I found another article that stated nearly 9,000 MWs of fossil fuel plants were off line.

I thought shutting down fossil fuel plants was desired?

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

(OP)
From the item below, it appears to be one of the Comanche units that's offline:

'Outrageous.' Texas grid scare reignites blackout concerns

https://www.eenews.net/stories/1063734985

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-'Product Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Power Reactor Status Report for June 15, 2021

Plant / % Power
Comanche Peak 1 / 100
Comanche Peak 2 / 0
South Texas 1 / 100
South Texas 2 / 100

That would only account for around 1,300MW of the 11,000MW offline.

If they are having a difficult time meeting demand before summer has even officially began, then... I'm thinking that it's going to be a long summer!

At least when we were without power in the winter, we could bundle up, get under the covers, huddle together.
If we lose power for several days in the dead of summer, there will be no escaping the heat/humidity.

=====================================
(2B)+(2B)' ?

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

The only thing I can see is Peak 2 scrammed due sensors issue

And the rest of the shortfall is due to hydrocarbon offline be it scheduled or un planned.

The nuke is passed the window for a quick restart. Although if its very near refuel they might have a bit of time yet before they have to alter the chemistry and inject.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

kinda reminds me of the california grid crisis of 2000-2001.At that time , operators would call each other up and exchange data on when they may have a "forced outage" , so as to jack up rates. Since then, the laws were revised to preclude such communications for those plants on the national grid, but Texas being its own grid might not be liable to follow those laws.

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

As an employee at a Texas generating plant, we are strictly warned not to discuss (outside the plant) when the plant is offline/online, scheduled to go off-line/on-line, vulnerable to going off-line. etc. It's like insider stock information. That information is shared only through formal channels so everyone in the public (including people wheeling and dealing in the power market) has equal access to it. If we see that information is already publicly available then we can discuss it. I don't know what the laws and criminal penalties are but the company doesn't take it lightly.

=====================================
(2B)+(2B)' ?

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

The first line of Nordstream 2 was completed last month they expect the second one to be finished in a matter of weeks.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Maybe NERC rules for power markets. Same thing I can not discuss plant, or project schedules with the power markerters down the hall.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

#### Quote (Engineering.Com)

How that oil will get to market, and to whom is an open question.
That's an easy one.
When the XL was proposed, it was to carry synthetic crude oil.
Then the Alberta Government decided on long term pain for short term gain.
They allowed the export of bitumen and jobs.
Now every day there are trainloads of DruBit leaving Alberta bound for the Southern upgraders.
The energy transport market has changed quite a bit.
There is already a pipeline corridor from Alberta to the south.
The XL was a short cut.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

It was strange that Alberta chose not to refine the crude; globally it seems that the decision to build refineries is over the heads of political leaders and some other market force or externally imposed rule prevents the building of more refineries. Looking into the medium term future, there may be an effort by global leaders to reduce refining capacity for gasoline and bias the production toward diesel for heavy trasnport vehicles only, pushing consumers toward EV's. Too bad that VW recalled all its diesel cars- they may become valuable in that instance.

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

There was a recession and oil revenues dropped.
Rather than tighten the budget belt, the government bowed to the US interests and started to issue permits to export raw bitumen.
It doesn't take a lot of manpower to run a SAGD operation and the many jobs associated with an upgrader went south with the bitumen. i consider those jobs to be part of our children's future lost.
Some of the numbers:
Suncor was building a new upgrader with a budgeted price of around 13 Billion dollars.
Conoco Philips build a large SAGD operation with a budget of 2 Billion dollars that over ran the budget by another billion dollars.
With the shift to bitumen export, the demand for synthetic crude dropped and Suncor cancelled the upgrader when it was partly built.
Intelligence and foresight don't seem to be prerequisites for political office.
Some other numbers:
Moving DilBit by pipeline; add 30% diluent, and the diluent is often returned to be reused.
So to transport 70 barrels of bitumen requires 30 barrels of diluent plus 30 barrels of diluent returned.That's 130 barrels of pipeline capacity to move 70 barrels of product. A utilization factor of 70/130 = 54%
On the other hand when bitumen is transported by rail it is often in the form of DruBit; Diluent Removed Bitumen. When you ship 100 barrels you get 100 barrels.
The trains are rolling south every day.
The industry is changing and my information may be out of date but the main point is the changes rather than exact percentages.
Updates with new information are welcome.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Interesting details there about XL, which has always been a complicated picture to me. If I can summarize the need for XL is not so strong because Canada has not invested to create synethetic crude but it rather focusing on exporting bitumen coal to US for processing. (did I get that right?).

About the nuc unit that went down in Texas: Comanche Peak... it appears they had a main transformer failure / fire.

=====================================
(2B)+(2B)' ?

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

(OP)
Another issue with the XL pipeline was concern that much of the 'crude' may have eventually ended-up at a refinery operation in Texas where the final products would have been exported overseas, thereby not providing any direct benefit to American consumers. And added to that was a report that since the oil flowing through the XL pipeline would have been from a foreign source and since the products refined from the oil would have been exported, that technically this oil could have been considered as having never actually been in the United States, and therefore, any profits earned would not have been subject to state and federal taxes.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-'Product Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

(OP)
I guess we shouldn't be surprised to learn that someone is looking into this as a way of learning more about what happened when this past winter's power interruptions in Texas happened. Data is being gathered continuously by these smart meters and I'm not surprised that they're easy to 'hack' into, if only to collect the metadata.

We have smart meters in our neighborhood here in SoCal and I can go into the power company website and see our usage on an hour-by-hour basis for the entire billing cycle each month. And if there are outages, these are flagged as such when you look at the historical usage charts:

Hacker reveals smart meters are spilling secrets about the Texas snowstorm

Power companies won't disclose who was protected from blackouts—but smart meters may be leaking insights.

https://www.dailydot.com/debug/hacker-smart-meter-...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-'Product Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

And that is the reason people don't like smart meters.
They think more intrusion into there lives.

In this case they are right.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

(OP)
But if this guy's research shows that there was some selective outages, or more importantly, selective non-outages, which shows a pattern of favoritism, for whatever reason, be it political, social, racial, etc, then perhaps having this data made public could be a good thing.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-'Product Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I fail to see what's intrusive here. Anyone can walk up to any meter and see the meter number, and use a hand held GPS to get the coordinates. He did not gather any customer account information(it's not transmitted)and he did not get any usage readings.

If favoritism is a concern, I would think the PUC could get by any CEII restrictions to investigate.

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

It is my understanding that one can pay extra for uninterruptible power supply,such as hospitals, police stations, communication centers, etc. Likewise consumers with special health needs that require continuous production of oxygen or some other service also may get special treatment. The deregulation of the industry also brought with it various fine print excusions and waivers of liability from some providers, if you selected such providers. I do not think the special treatment is due to a nefarious cabal deep in the heart of the ISO, it is just the way we let it evolve.

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

### RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

(OP)
Yes, there was a period of time when my wife's mother was living with us and she had to be on an oxygen concentrator at night. There was a program where we could apply for a reduced electrical rate due to having to support medical equipment, however, this meant that we could not participate in the AC cycling program. It was one or the other, but it did mean that they couldn't cycle our AC since we had a person living with us who could have been harmed by excessive heat in the home. She lived with us for nearly seven years.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-'Product Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

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