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Sciencemadness Discussion Board » Fundamentals » Reagents and Apparatus Acquisition » Sulphuric Acid in Australia Select A Forum Fundamentals   » Chemistry in General   » Organic Chemistry   » Reagents and Apparatus Acquisition   » Beginnings   » Responsible Practices   » Miscellaneous   » The Wiki Special topics   » Technochemistry   » Energetic Materials   » Biochemistry   » Radiochemistry   » Computational Models and Techniques   » Prepublication Non-chemistry   » Forum Matters   » Legal and Societal Issues

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Author: Subject: Sulphuric Acid in Australia
hissingnoise
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I've stated several times on various threads, that SO3 produces a practically incondensable acid mist when led to water and, BTW, at 700°C the decomposition rate of SO3 is ~87% . . .
Cracking Na2S2O7 proceeds at ~466°C and the issuing gasses are readily absorbed by conc. H2SO4 to form oleum!

Phthalic Acid
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That's a good idea Neil, I'll be sure to try that next time (probably for H2O2). Just went to Tradelink and asked if they sold Moflo drain cleaner. The guy said yeah and I asked for a liter of it. No problems whatsoever, he just said "be careful with it". It was $45 but a liter will last me a while and making it myself would've been vastly more expensive I imagine. Success! MeSynth Hazard to Others Posts: 107 Registered: 29-7-2011 Member Is Offline Mood: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZltqlVuDIo Sulfuric acid can be produced in the laboratory by burning sulfur in air and dissolving the gas produced in a hydrogen peroxide solution. SO2 + H2O2 → H2SO4 this was found on wikipedia... did you not look through the sullfuric acid wiki before boiling down batery acid? anyways... There are some good videos on youtube that demonstrate how to synthesize sulfuric acid using different methods. The drain cleaner you get from the store will be impure and may contain organic matter that discolors the acid. To purify it boil off the water and then turn up the heat to around 400c for a while. If it is a dark pos drain cleaner it will give off a lot of smoke which is coming from the impurities decomposing. after heating for a while longer the color should clear up and you should be able to see through it eventually. it will most likely be discolored a very nice clear yellow. when no more visual changes are observed you can turn off the heat and store it in the same bottle it came in. (after you wash and dry it. duh) [Edited on 13-8-2011 by MeSynth] Phthalic Acid Harmless Posts: 19 Registered: 7-8-2011 Location: Australia Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood First of all, H2O2 in higher than 3% concentrations is just as hard to find as H2SO4 (well in my case anyway) which makes that method not very viable. Second, I didn't boil down battery acid, I bought concentrated stuff over the counter (and boiling down battery acid would've been easier than dealing with burning sulphur and directing gases anyway.) And I am well aware of the various methods of synthesizing it myself, hence why I was asking about electrolysis of Copper Sulphate. There were a few methods mentioned here that I wasn't aware of though (lead chamber process for example) which sound very interesting. I'd like to have a go at a few just for the practical experience. And what gives you the impression I need lots of acid? I didn't say anywhere that I needed a certain amount and I got 1L because that'd the smallest bottle they had. theflickkk Harmless Posts: 33 Registered: 29-3-2011 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood Personally, I've found it near impossible to obtain sulfuric acid OTC. Firstly, laws regarding the purchase of chemicals is very strict here. Secondly, battery acid can only be obtained together with lead-acid batteries. A lead-acid battery containing approximately 500ml of acid costs roughly 30USD so its really too expensive. What I've done was to synthesize a small amount of sulfuric acid via a really really long method. Copper sulfate was prepared from ammonium sulfate hydroponics fertilizer and household ammonia. A copper sulfate solution was then electrolyzed, filtered and concentrated by boiling down. Despite being so troublesome, this long winded method is definitely the best I can do for now to get a few mls of conc. H2SO4. uchiacon Hazard to Self Posts: 87 Registered: 3-7-2009 Location: The Jungle(neezeelund) Member Is Offline Mood: Financial Oh come on guys, you can't find technical grade sulfuric acid in australia? Freakin australia? Really? I buy 99% sulfuric acid in christchurch, new zealand, in 25L containers, without an account, without ID and without any questions from a huge chemical wholesaler for$3/L. Furthermore, I'm sixteen.

All these people giving suggestions about making it and buying drain opener... fucking seriously...

You do not stop searching until you have found it. It's really simple. There are some chemicals I need to import from china because I cannot find them here, but in the end I always find what I need.

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared."

Before you find youself cheering for a new regulation, consider your reaction if you were to be on the receiving end.
theflickkk
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I really wish I could indeed just buy sulfuric acid. Too bad its one of the many chemicals that are banned where I'm from.
Singapore is such a small country so there aren't many chemical wholesalers or people interested in home chemistry. Besides, even chewing gum is banned LOL It may be easy to obtain chemicals where you're from but that doesn't mean that it applies universally.
MeSynth
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 Quote: Originally posted by Phthalic Acid Hi everyone, thought I better introduce myself since this is my first post (I've been lurking for a while though)... So I decided to cut my losses and buy some battery acid and boil it down (which I was hoping to avoid.)

MeSynth
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 Quote: Originally posted by theflickkk I really wish I could indeed just buy sulfuric acid. Too bad its one of the many chemicals that are banned where I'm from. Singapore is such a small country so there aren't many chemical wholesalers or people interested in home chemistry. Besides, even chewing gum is banned LOL It may be easy to obtain chemicals where you're from but that doesn't mean that it applies universally.

Why dont you move?
theflickkk
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I'm not self-reliant as of now. I hope to be able to study overseas though. Chemistry is definitely one of the factors why I really want to do so. Then again, I'll have to do well for the A levels and SATs if I were to even consider studying abroad D:

[Edited on 15-8-2011 by theflickkk]
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 Quote: Originally posted by theflickkk I'm not self-reliant as of now. I hope to be able to study overseas though. Chemistry is definitely one of the factors why I really want to do so. Then again, I'll have to do well for the A levels and SATs if I were to even consider studying abroad D: [Edited on 15-8-2011 by theflickkk]

Why don't you swim across the ocean? Is that how you spell ocean? it doesn't look right to me.
Roger86
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Where i live(EU), gas station's are obligted to take old car batteries and recycle them, but usually they store those batteries just outside on the back of the station, when i was younger and i was sure no place would sell me sulfuric acid, me and the boys went to those stations and had a funnel and 5l bottle to salvage the treasures of those batteries.As far as i know the gas stations only check security tapes when they are robbed.Where in australia do old car batteries go? do you have to take them to somewhere to be recycled?

But i suspect that sulfuric acid will be harder to come around here as well, because i believe all batteries i'v seen in here are 'non maintentace' ones. Besides car batteries dont cost much to replace so i dont think anyone is really wasting their acid for that
Geko127
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Try the motorcycle shop !

Ask No questions and ill tell no lie\'s.
bdbstone
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Does anybody thought about Ozone method. Its powerfull oxidizer, so it will probably oxidize SO2 to form SO3. I think the reaction will proceed something like this:

SO2 + O3 = SO3 + O2

If H2O2 works than this should work too..
simba
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 Quote: Originally posted by bdbstone Does anybody thought about Ozone method. Its powerfull oxidizer, so it will probably oxidize SO2 to form SO3. I think the reaction will proceed something like this: SO2 + O3 = SO3 + O2 If H2O2 works than this should work too..

Yes, it works...but you know what, ozone is a bitch.
simba
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Btw, I think ozone will oxidize even plain sulfur into SO3.
aliced25
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 Quote: Originally posted by Phthalic Acid Thanks for the info plante1999! You seem to have a lot of experience with H2SO4, which method did you find was the highest yielding/easiest/cheapest? The lead chamber process is really interesting, I'm reading over the "H2SO4 by the Lead Chamber Process - success" thread right now. Just for the experience I might try both =) bquirky, that's a good point. Do you think the laws may be different between states (I'm in QLD btw) or is chemical control a federal thing? Thanks for the advice on the cover story haha but I've never had a problem with things like that =) Is there anything else you can think of that I should know about over here regarding chemicals etc.?

Unless you want to lose your chemicals, your glassware and a whole lot of money, time and effort, I'd strongly suggest that you be VERY FUCKING CAREFUL in the Sunshine State (or the wicked witch of the East's Flying Monkey Squad will visit - been there, done that).

I've also had some serious problems purchasing H2SO4 in Queensland, there is a cleaning chemical company (named after a brand of soup - go figure (think Warhol)) that sells 4L plastic containers of it.

But if you want decent H2SO4 make it yourself, SO2 is formed by dripping bunneys bought muriatic on metabisulphite (home brew cleaner). Cl2 is formed by dripping HCl into hypochlorite (ie. domestos or homebrand version). Pass the SO2 gas into distilled water to form sulphurous acid (if you freeze & thaw it a few times it also oxidizes - the clathrates are funky as fuck) which is very endothermic. Pass Cl2 into the sulphurous acid to get H2SO4 and gaseous HCl (so getting two pure acids for the price of one if you pass the HCl into distilled water).

But that is QLD nowadays, everything is so fucking hot since the two major groups of f-wits with leather jackets and patches took to moving to the Sunshine state & pulling 80% of their pseudo runs there.

Be fucking careful if you try and import glassware or get anything by mail.

From a Knight of the Realm: "Animated movies are not just for kids, they're also for adults who do a lot of drugs." Sir Paul McCartney
Lithium
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i also live in australia, and this is a major blockage in chemistry.

i am going to ring the post and ask if there is a way i may get H2SO4 throuh the post.

they sell it on amazon in america, $15 a litre plus shippping is$10.

i saw on a show yesterday that some guy was dissolving dead bodies in the stuff, that'll make me look good

Li
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 Quote: Originally posted by Lithium i also live in australia, and this is a major blockage in chemistry. i am going to ring the post and ask if there is a way i may get H2SO4 through the post. ... Li

AusPost will NOT ship liquid corrosives. They are even funny about dry powders, especially strong oxidisers or toxic stuff. What's more, most businesses won't even offer to ship same through the post -- most offer only courier services, even for relatively innocuous things such as CuSO4.

For instance, my most recent chem order to Vanbar (photographic chemicals) had to be sent by courier. It was about $20AU for the courier, so I made sure to order lots of chemicals to reduce the pain a bit. (Unfortunately, Vanbar won't even ship GAA via courier; you have to go to their Melbourne location in person -- and, presumably, be obliged to give photo ID and perhaps sign an E.U.D.) If you don't want to drop by Ace Chemicals, just go to someplace like Mitre 10, Reece Plumbing, or Banner Hardware (in SA). You'll find Momar "Mo Flo" drain cleaner sulphuric acid at about 90% concentration for about$45/litre. It's black and vile looking and it has some kind of corrosion inhibiters in it to protect pipes, but it should be usable for lots of reactions.

-Bobby

hames
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I found a decent sulphuric acid drain cleaner in australia its clear and 98% its called maximum power it says it made in waitara nsw,I got it off a friend so can't say where to get it.

Lithium
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Li
vmelkon
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 Quote: Originally posted by Mixell If you have the ability to reach high temperatures (700C or more) you can decompose CuSO4 or any other sulfate that form an oxide of the metal and SO3, lead the SO3 vapors into water and you can get a very concentrated sulfuric acid, or even oleum! Although its very risky and better just buy the acid from somewhere if you manage to...

The problem I have with that statement is that although it might be true that CuSO4 would decompose to CuO and SO3, the reaction time might be very long.
The next problem is that those SO3 vapors need to be collected and people say that it is hard to condense and that it should be added to a medium concentration H2SO4 solution.

Have you done it?
Or has someone else done it?
Is the procedure practical?
What materials are needed for the container?

[Edited on 23-3-2012 by vmelkon]
Bot0nist
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Quote: Originally posted by vmelkon
 Quote: Originally posted by Mixell If you have the ability to reach high temperatures (700C or more) you can decompose CuSO4 or any other sulfate that form an oxide of the metal and SO3, lead the SO3 vapors into water and you can get a very concentrated sulfuric acid, or even oleum! Although its very risky and better just buy the acid from somewhere if you manage to...

The problem I have with that statement is that although it might be true that CuSO4 would decompose to CuO and SO3, the reaction time might be very long.
The next problem is that those SO3 vapors need to be collected and people say that it is hard to condense and that it should be added to a medium concentration H2SO4 solution.

Have you done it?
Or has someone else done it?
Is the procedure practical?
What materials are needed for the container?

[Edited on 23-3-2012 by vmelkon]

Use The Forum Search Enigine!

It can be done. Copper sulfate is not the best salt to employ here. Surely you all have swimming pools in Oz...
Also, note that venting sulfur trioxide into water instead of sulfuric acid would be catastrophic, IIRC.

[Edited on 24-3-2012 by Bot0nist]

U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!

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Halcyon
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The Supercheap Auto guy was talking out his arse. There are NO restrictions on H2SO4 in Australia, nor any need for EUDs or identity checks whatsoever.

As far as drain cleaner goes, why buy 1L for $50 when a 20L drum of 98+% pure costs$50 plus freight (maximum of another fifty, and that's if you don't manage to get it freaighted with a supply house's next order).

Just go to a cleaning chem supply house and ask for a 20L drum. Or PM me and let me know what state you're in, and if you're in mine I'll let you have some for free - the only reason I bought 20L was because it was the same price as 1L of adulterated shite.
Halcyon
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Ok, I've had a couple questions from other Aussies, so I might as well post what I've found out here in the open.

For QLDers, try emailing info@avantichem.com.au or check out http://www.qldchemicalsupplies.com.au/

For NSW folks, try contacting one of the following:

http://www.truebluechemicals.com.au/
http://www.envirochemicals.com.au/

Just ask if they're able to supply concentrated sulphuric acid, what their lowest quantity is and how much. Remember that you're not doing anything wrong, don't make apologies or excuses if they ask what you want it for or tell you there's some restriction on it and you'll typically come off as a lot less suss
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 Sciencemadness Discussion Board » Fundamentals » Reagents and Apparatus Acquisition » Sulphuric Acid in Australia Select A Forum Fundamentals   » Chemistry in General   » Organic Chemistry   » Reagents and Apparatus Acquisition   » Beginnings   » Responsible Practices   » Miscellaneous   » The Wiki Special topics   » Technochemistry   » Energetic Materials   » Biochemistry   » Radiochemistry   » Computational Models and Techniques   » Prepublication Non-chemistry   » Forum Matters   » Legal and Societal Issues


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# Why do we need dropout in deep networks?

I have read some general statements about the usefulness of Dropout but the issue is still very vague to me. It is always said that it prohibits co-adaptability of neurons, but why it should be a bad thing? We build the network of neurons and train all of them together, otherwise what is the point in a connected network? And what we expect is that one specific neuron is activated by a specific input. Dropout exactly opposes this. When we randomly set on and off the neurons, how we do expect that it learn something?

• Thanks for reply, but what is the point in discussing symmetry here? I can not relate it to my question. – Shahriar49 Apr 4 '18 at 23:39

Now, dropout doesn't set the weight to zero completely. Remember, dropout is applied on a whole layer and has a probability associated and can keep changing from batch to batch*. So when we feed our first batch, $n_1, n_2, n_3$ might have there outputs zero, but other neurons still output values. [$n_1, n_2, n_3, n_4,.. n_{10}$ are neurons in some layer]. For next iteration, we might have $n_2, n_4, n_5$ with their outputs zero. The network is forced to learn with such perturbations and eventually adapts to learn even in absence of some data.

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The digits of a four-digit positive integer add up to 14. The sum of the two middle digits is nine, and the thousands digit minus the units digit is one. If the integer is divisible by 11, what is the integer?

May 27, 2020

#1
+25565
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The digits of a four-digit positive integer add up to 14.

The sum of the two middle digits is nine, and the thousands digit minus the units digit is one.

If the integer is divisible by 11,

what is the integer?

$$\begin{array}{|lrcll|} \hline \text{A four-digit positive integer}:& abcd \\ \hline \text{The digits add up to 14}: & a+b+c+d=14 \\ \text{The sum of the two middle digits is nine}: & b+c=9 \\ \text{The thousands digit minus the units digit is one}: & a-d=1 \\ \text{Divisibility by Eleven: if the difference of the alternating sum is 0}: & a+c-(b+d)=0 \\ \hline \end{array}$$

$$\begin{array}{|rcll|} \hline a+b+c+d &=& 14 \quad | \quad b+c=9 \\ a+9+d &=& 14 \quad | \quad a-d=1\quad \text{or} \quad a=1+d \\ 1+d+9+d &=& 14 \\ 2d+10&=& 14 \\ 2d &=& 4 \\ \mathbf{d} &=& \mathbf{2} \\ \hline a &=& 1+d \\ a &=& 1+2 \\ \mathbf{a} &=& \mathbf{3} \\ \hline \end{array}$$

$$\begin{array}{|rcll|} \hline a+c-(b+d) &=& 0 \\ a+c-b-d &=& 0 \\ a-d+c-b &=& 0 \quad | \quad a-d = 1 \\ 1+c-b &=& 0 \quad | \quad b+c=9\quad \text{or} \quad c=9-b \\ 1+9-b-b &=& 0 \\ 2b &=& 10 \\ \mathbf{b} &=& \mathbf{5} \\ \hline c &=& 9-b \\ c &=& 9-5 \\ \mathbf{c} &=& \mathbf{4} \\ \hline \end{array}$$

$$\begin{array}{|rcll|} \hline \text{The four-digit positive integer abcd is}:& \mathbf{3542} \\ & 3542 : 11 = 322 \\ \hline \end{array}$$

May 27, 2020


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# Tag Info

## Hot answers tagged error

8

I think there's a bug in the internal function NDSolveSPRKDumpCheckSeparability that leads NDSolve to conclude that the system is not separable. I think you should report it and see if WRI can verify it (they would probably appreciate a link to this Q&A). It's a fair amount of work to track it down, and there is a lot of nearly unreadable stuff to ...

4

The local i does not evaluate in the first table of functions; e.g. Table[# f[i] &, {i, 1, 10}] gives... {#1 f[i] &, #1 f[i] &, #1 f[i] &, #1 f[i] &, #1 f[i] &, #1 f[i] &, #1 f[i] &, #1 f[i] &, #1 f[i] &, #1 f[i] &} Use With to force the evaluation of i... Table[With[{i = i}, # f[i] &], {i, 1, 10}] to ...

4

There was a wrong bracket in F. Also do not use { as a normal bracket, and second you wrote Exp{[ which has to be either {Exp[ or (Exp[ . F[k1_, k2_, λ1_, λ2_, δ_, w1_, w2_] := (1 - Exp[-(w1/λ1)^k1]) (1 - Exp[-(w2/λ2)^k2]) (Exp[(1 - (1 - Exp[-(w1/λ1)^k1]))^(-δ) + (1 + (1 - Exp[-(w2/λ2)^k2]))^-δ]^(1/-δ))

3

Confirmed by WRI (@ilian) as bug introduced in 10.1.

3

Needs["ErrorBarPlots`"] data = {{34.2, 8.83, 5.8, 4.2, 1.3362, 1.3362}, {44.3, 3.02, 5.7, 4.3, 0.4324, 0.4324}, {54.3, 1.33, 5.7, 4.3, 0.190427, 0.190427}, {64.5, 0.615, 5.5, 4.5, 0.088054, 0.088054}, {78.1, 0.273, 11.9, 8.1, 0.03908765, 0.039087651}, {98.6, 0.0861, 11.4, 8.6, 0.014199975, 0.014199975}, {122.0, 0.0279, 18, 12, ...

2

When you call compiled functions inside another compiled function, you should consider to inline them. You can do this by wrapping a With statement around and using CompilationOptions -> {"InlineCompiledFunctions" -> True} as option to compile. I have cleaned your code, moving a lot of definitions of variable right where you declare it in Module. I ...

2

The reason for this error is that NIntegrate uses fixed precision when computing the integration ranges, while EllipticK needs to raise the precision internally to obtain a good result. N[EllipticK[7/10], 20] (* 2.0753631352924691439 *) Block[{$MinPrecision =$MaxPrecision = 20}, N[EllipticK[7/10], 20]] (* Divide::infy: Infinite expression ...

2

Since kirma has pointed out the main trouble, which is also found in the potential duplicate Trouble with Position[], I thought I would add another alternative like Bob Brooks. Comment: Using Association here instead of lists to manage your data might be more convenient. We can convert the data* either with pa = Association[Rule @@@ price]; da = ...

1

Go to Preferences -> Messages and choose the desired option for Kernel Messages.

Only top voted, non community-wiki answers of a minimum length are eligible


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# An Extended Dynamical Hydration Shell around Proteins

Simon Ebbinghaus, Seung Joong Kim, Matthias Heyden, Xin Yu, Udo Heugen, Martin Gruebele, David M. Leitner and Martina Havenith
Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America
Vol. 104, No. 52 (Dec. 26, 2007), pp. 20749-20752
Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/25450972
Page Count: 4
The focus in protein folding has been very much on the protein backbone and sidechains. However, hydration waters make comparable contributions to the structure and energy of proteins. The coupling between fast hydration dynamics and protein dynamics is considered to play an important role in protein folding. Fundamental questions of protein hydration include, how far out into the solvent does the influence of the biomolecule reach, how is the water affected, and how are the properties of the hydration water influenced by the separation between protein molecules in solution? We show here that Terahertz spectroscopy directly probes such solvation dynamics around proteins, and determines the width of the dynamical hydration layer. We also investigate the dependence of solvation dynamics on protein concentration. We observe an unexpected nonmonotonic trend in the measured terahertz absorbance of the five helix bundle protein $\lambda _{6-85}^{\ast}$ as a function of the protein: water molar ratio. The trend can be explained by overlapping solvation layers around the proteins. Molecular dynamics simulations indicate water dynamics in the solvation layer around one protein to be distinct from bulk water out to ≈10 Å. At higher protein concentrations such that solvation layers overlap, the calculated absorption spectrum varies nonmonotonically, qualitatively consistent with the experimental observations. The experimental data suggest an influence on the correlated water network motion beyond 20 Å, greater than the pure structural correlation length usually observed.


text:
Asymptotic behaviour and correctors for Dirichlet problems in perforated domains with homogeneous monotone operators
Annali della Scuola Normale Superiore di Pisa - Classe di Scienze, Serie 4, Volume 24 (1997) no. 2, pp. 239-290.
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%A Dal Maso, Gianni
%A Murat, François
%T Asymptotic behaviour and correctors for Dirichlet problems in perforated domains with homogeneous monotone operators
%J Annali della Scuola Normale Superiore di Pisa - Classe di Scienze
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Dal Maso, Gianni; Murat, François. Asymptotic behaviour and correctors for Dirichlet problems in perforated domains with homogeneous monotone operators. Annali della Scuola Normale Superiore di Pisa - Classe di Scienze, Serie 4, Volume 24 (1997) no. 2, pp. 239-290. http://www.numdam.org/item/ASNSP_1997_4_24_2_239_0/

[1] H. Attouch, Variational Convergence for Functions and Operators., Pitman, London, 1984. | Zbl

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